Player Races, Zero HD Monsters, and Balance


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

Liberty's Edge

Yay, controversial topic!

I've been thinking (and reading) about the various new "player races" in the Bestiary 2 - also called "Zero Hit Die Monsters". I've noticed several things that, while not strictly universal, are pretty common:

1) The various "Zero Hit Die Monsters" from the Bestiary and Bestiary 2 are mostly acceptable in Golarion (default Pathfinder Campaign Setting).

2) They are generally considered to be more powerful than the standard seven races.

3) The difference in power is not enough - nowhere near enough - to justify a "Level Adjustment".

So, my question is this: what is enough to justify the difference in power?

For convenience, I'm going to list all the current race/zero HD monsters/etc, sorted using the only "official" standard we have - the core seven, the races with one level in warrior (CR 1/3), and the races with one PC class level (CR 1/2).

Core Races (7): Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Halfling, Human

Warrior Races: Drow (Common), Duergar, Goblin, Kobold, Merfolk, Orc

PC Class Races: Aasimar, Hobgoblin, Teifling, Tengu, Dhampir, Fetchling, Grippli, Ifrit, Oread, Sylph, Urdine

Note: the Svirfneblin and the Drow (Noble) do not appear in this list, as they are noticeably more powerful than any of the above races.

***

I could see moving the Drow (common), the Duergar, and the Merfolk down to the next group; personally, I would arrange things thusly:

"standard" races: Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Halfling, Human; Goblin, Kobold, Orc

"more powerful" races: Drow (Common), Duergar, Merfolk, Aasimar, Hobgoblin, Teifling, Tengu, Dhampir, Fetchling, Grippli, Ifrit, Oread, Sylph, Urdine.

In either case - given either of the divisions I've listed - what is a good way to quickly, easily, and with minimal paperwork balence out the races?

A full level adjustment is overkill, and a generally clunky mechanic besides. A Point Buy or Feat tax seems awkward. I'm aware of the "Council of Thieves Teifling Trait", but I (and many other players) feel that it's overkill, especially given that it costs a trait to take.

What about charging a "trait tax" - letting "standard" races get two traits, "more powerful" races getting only one (which is often the "campaign" trait), and throwing Kobolds a freebie third trait because they need the help?


That trait tax seems reasonable to me.

As for kobolds, there's always this... Kobold web enhancement to help them out.


Playing with Trait +/- 1 or 2 would probably be a decent method of balancing PC races with former +LA races.

Considering many people boost the base number of traits beyond the normal 2 per character you might be able to handle more extreme variations.


Well if you are playing a tiefling wizard with the tiefling trait you could become a magic bartender that creates water then uses prestidigitation to flavor it into unique drinks.

Duergar need some other spell like abilities more like cantrips to chose from.

Trait tax is pretty reasonable.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

What I do in games I run (which isn't often) is make the planetouched races Humanoid (Planetouched), rather than Outsider (Native), because I feel that it is design intent that player races be susceptible to X person spells (including enlarge person, so this isn't purely a nerf).


I don't think the tengu should be on the "more powerful" list and that orc should be moved there instead.

Basically, look at their ability scores first to determine if they're balanced with each other race (or weaker in kobold's case). If yes, move on to their racial traits. Compare them to those of one of the core rulebook races. If they have about the same numbers for skills and no abilities that are too far out of the norm (i.e. spell resistance, primary natural attacks, poison) it should be roughly the same. The hobgoblin is almost a core PC race in PF aside from having almost no defining racial traits and no bad score. In this case, I might allow it a pass to a standard PC race just because of how few things it actually benefits from. Things that other races don't have and that there's no comparison for (proficiency in all swords, squeezing as though a size category smaller) you just kind of have to eyeball and think about how much benefit a character actually gets from the ability. Squeezing as a size smaller is very useful, but not all the time. It's a good racial trait, but much better with a small size character. Proficiency with all swords ever sounds really cool, but in reality it boils down to Exotic Weapon Proficiency (a sword) at the most (Or martial weapon proficiency for swords, which benefits casters and rogues), which has three possible core applications, one of which can be used at a time.

Contributor

What it really comes down to is: are the players in the group comfortable with one PC having a slightly different power level than the other PCs?

If the answer is "yes" then you don't have to "tax" that PC in any way.

In other words, if everyone is a human except for one tiefling, and the players don't care, then roll with it. If everyone is a normal human except for one human wereboard, and the players don't care, then roll with it.


vuron wrote:

Playing with Trait +/- 1 or 2 would probably be a decent method of balancing PC races with former +LA races.

Considering many people boost the base number of traits beyond the normal 2 per character you might be able to handle more extreme variations.

The Council of Thieves Players Guide has some suggestions on how to "equalize" the Tiefling for use as a PC, some of which are adaptable to other races.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
wereboard

Wereboard? Lumbering Lycanthropes!

Or is that a typo for Werebeard? Holy Hirsuteness!


I am running a 3 man party with an aasimir, a tengu, and a tiefling. It works well even with high point buy(25). Now these are not exactly chessed out characters but they got through masters of the fallen fortress with some difficulty at level 1 with an extra healing potion added in since no cleric but a paladin.

If the entire party is high level then yes it is okay. It may also depend on if a character uses a more powerful race but not as powerful a build could still be balanced. Also some wierd flavor things can happen with merfolk a merfolk fire oracle will be powerful and cinder dance helps with the nerf to landspeed merfolk have. His or her initials should not be B.B.Q either.

Tieflings and aasimir make the tongues curse a lot less of a nerf if the player choose abyssal or infernal and can talk to the tiefling or can choose that as a racial language which none of the other races receive as a default racial language.


Urath DM wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
wereboard

Wereboard? Lumbering Lycanthropes!

Or is that a typo for Werebeard? Holy Hirsuteness!

A wereboard is a board that turns into a ladder during full moon.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

What it really comes down to is: are the players in the group comfortable with one PC having a slightly different power level than the other PCs?

If the answer is "yes" then you don't have to "tax" that PC in any way.

Conversely, if the answer is "no" then the OP's question stands, and the house rules posters are suggesting to "tax" various races are perfectly legitimate ways to address his concerns.

Contributor

Epic Meepo wrote:
Conversely, if the answer is "no" then the OP's question stands, and the house rules posters are suggesting to "tax" various races are perfectly legitimate ways to address his concerns.

And if the answer is "no," perhaps rather than "taxing" Bob's PC, Bob should rethink his weird character concept. Also a legitimate way to address the other players' concerns. :)


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Epic Meepo wrote:
Conversely, if the answer is "no" then the OP's question stands, and the house rules posters are suggesting to "tax" various races are perfectly legitimate ways to address his concerns.
And if the answer is "no," perhaps rather than "taxing" Bob's PC, Bob should rethink his weird character concept. Also a legitimate way to address the other players' concerns. :)

I think the answer here, more often than not (I could be wrong) is that it's the GM with a balance fixation like my own, who wants to be sure everything is as equal as possible, BUT we want to open up as many options as possible.

That means fiddling with some rules.

Grand Lodge

James was stating in the Bestiary 2 thread that the Races in the book are not truly meant for PC races but as for zero level type of NPC or creature. None of them have been play tested to this day and as such well they are just not official. So house ruling them would be quite ok to say the least. but on the other hand if you think that they are official, they are not :)

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
...perhaps rather than "taxing" Bob's PC, Bob should rethink his weird character concept. Also a legitimate way to address the other players' concerns. :)

I think you're offering advice that addresses a concern the OP doesn't have. His players don't want to prevent unbalanced character concepts. They want to create additional balanced character concepts. Which isn't quite the same thing. :)

Contributor

Actually, the OP doesn't mention his players at all. He's trying to establish a general rule for balancing all the 0 HD races.

My point is that the requirement of having "balanced PC races" in the group is a concept players can abandon as long as everyone is having fun and doesn't feel cheated. If Bob wants to play an ogre and everyone else human and all the players are okay with Bob being bigger and stronger than everyone else, then forget about trying to nitpick whether this should be +1 or +1.5 or +2 or +X or +Z.


This reminds me of the point buy power thread...

Lets start with a theoretical 20pt buy campaign. If someone wants to play a "more powerful" race they only get 15pts. If they want to play a kobold, they start with 25. I feel that this would probably have the most affect at low levels, when some racial abilities are at their most powerful. I would also say that there can't really be a set-in-stone formula, because the power of abilities would vary from campaign to campaign.

I would probably also say that if the race has an ability (usable X/day) that is like a spell, they need to have a high enough character level to cast it. For example, a PC would need to be third level in order to use an ability that granted invisibility.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
My point is that the requirement of having "balanced PC races" in the group is a concept players can abandon as long as everyone is having fun and doesn't feel cheated.

I understand what you're saying, and it's a perfectly valid point. I just don't think it addresses the question being asked in this thread. The OP stated that he wants to do X, and asked how best to do it. Observing that he doesn't have to do X doesn't address his question about how best to do X.

To put it another way:
Pretend that X in the previous paragraph is creating a Words of Power system that uses spell slots. Would observing that the OP can choose to create a magic system without spell slots do anything to address his question about how best to create one with spell slots?

The decision has already been made that the OP's house rules will re-balance 0-HD races. Arguing that there is no reason for his house rules to re-balance 0-HD races is like arguing that there is no reason for Ultimate Magic to include a spell-slot-based Words of Power system. It has already been decided that the book will include those rules; observing that it doesn't have to do so is entirely beside the point.

Contributor

I'm just saying that he's trying to fix a problem that may not need to be fixed. :)

His question is: "So, my question is this: what is enough to justify the difference in power?"

My answer is: "Are you sure you need to justify it?"

:)

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Well, if you're going to get all technical about the use of the word "justify"... :)

Dark Archive

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Actually, the OP doesn't mention his players at all. He's trying to establish a general rule for balancing all the 0 HD races.

My point is that the requirement of having "balanced PC races" in the group is a concept players can abandon as long as everyone is having fun and doesn't feel cheated. If Bob wants to play an ogre and everyone else human and all the players are okay with Bob being bigger and stronger than everyone else, then forget about trying to nitpick whether this should be +1 or +1.5 or +2 or +X or +Z.

Not just the other players, but the GM, too, has a say. And if he/she doesn't want such a race in their game, it matters not if there are so-called "balanced rules" or not.

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