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I want to limit this, because I'm finding that too many creatures (animals and magical beasts in particular) are getting killed with one blow - slowly bleeding to death.
What annoys me about this is not the way that the balance of the combat is affected, it's the fact that it cuts off a creature's option to retreat. The other day it happened with a Roc - one bleeding hit and the creature was doomed.
So I'm thinking of proposing a DC 15 fortitude save, made every round, at the beginning of the round but after bleeding damage has been taken, which will reduce the bleed rate by 1.
What do you think?
Richard
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I want to limit this, because I'm finding that too many creatures (animals and magical beasts in particular) are getting killed with one blow - slowly bleeding to death.
What annoys me about this is not the way that the balance of the combat is affected, it's the fact that it cuts off a creature's option to retreat. The other day it happened with a Roc - one bleeding hit and the creature was doomed.
So I'm thinking of proposing a DC 15 fortitude save, made every round, at the beginning of the round but after bleeding damage has been taken, which will reduce the bleed rate by 1.
What do you think?
Richard
go for it
Typically, bleed takes a single round of someone's time to end entirely: healing magic, DC 15 heal check, etc. Since a heal check can be made untrained, and can be retried, any creature who escapes combat while bleeding but with at least a few rounds to live had a very good chance of surviving. That roc, for example, if it flies away and lands nearby with 4 rounds to live, has an 82% survival rate based on self-heal checks alone.
If that's still too deadly for your taste, I'd suggest a house rule that only effects bleed outside of combat. One of these, perhaps:
Slower bleeds
When a character has escaped the stresses of combat and may rest comfortably, bleed damage occurs once every minute rather than every round. That gives a creature with 2 bleeds before death, but who has retreated to safety, but who has no ranks in heal and no wisdom bonus, an extremely good chance to survive:
1 bleed damage before death 82%
2 bleed damage before death 97%
3 bleed damage before death 99%
Tough monsters
Outside of combat, a character can use a full round action to make a fortitude save in place of a heal check to stop bleed damage.
Cinematic bleeding
If a creature survives combat and is allowed to get to safety (ie, not immediately chased or kept running) bleed damage stops when the creature reaches 0 HP.
Less deadly bleeding
Bleed damage stops when hit points reach zero.
Thanks for the ideas.
I can't quite imagine how a Roc self-heals though.
Richard
Sour fruit might have an antiseptic effect.
Maybe juice from a giant aloe plant.|
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Thanks for the ideas.
I can't quite imagine how a Roc self-heals though.
Richard
As a hunter I can tell you that you can shoot a deer and cause it to bleed out, follow the trail for a while and then find out that your trail ends in a small pool of blood. An animal will bed down and apply pressure to a wound while trying to clean it, then as soon as the bleeding stops resume its running. I doubt a Roc can't manage what a common deer can.
Animals instinctively lick wounds to try to clean them and/or stop the bleeding. As Heal is a skill you can use untrained, all it takes is a few rounds of untrained checks to hit that DC and the bleed is over.
I still like the idea of having a ST - a bit like stabilisation, with which it must have some commonality.
I don't think I understand what you said there.
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I still like the idea of having a ST - a bit like stabilisation, with which it must have some commonality.I don't think I understand what you said there.
He's saying he still thinks he'd prefer a saving throw as opposed to a seperate action.
As it is you have to actively stop the bleed, whereas with a saving throw, you can stop bleeding without taking action. For what it's worth, I see the merit of having both. However, I think that the DC to stop bleeding should be higher, because a DC15 is easily achievable by most monsters past CR 5
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Further thoughts on this:
If we stick to the intention of making Heal the only way that an animal or what have you stops bleeding, then I think Heal should be a class skill for just about anything (you can't get more fundamental than being able to lick your own wounds), and I would suggest that every creature has at least 1 rank Heal (pinch it from somewhere else).
Some might also have Skill Focus (Heal) as a substitute feat.
Richard
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So a few quick thoughts on this.
It's a fixed DC which gives a 1 in 4 chance for an untrained creature to nail. So a creature can heal itself in an average of 4 rounds. Tons of creatures bleeding to death just seems like it's off whack statistically. Most creatures don't survive the initial encounter with the PCs for this to be a problem.
The reason it's not a saving throw is because a heal check takes an action where a save is passive. Most effects with saves have a sliding DC based on character level which would potentially make it even more difficult to resist as the characters could invest in ramping up the DC.
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The problem with bleed as it currently stands, in my opinion, is not that it imbalances an encounter when PCs are just slugging it out, it's that it becomes a (slow) death attack for anything which can't heal itself.
Admittedly, I hadn't thought of allowing a creature like a Roc, or a T-Rex, the ability to do its own Heal check. Otherwise, a 2nd level Rogue with a bow hiding up in a tree would be the bane of all monsters that passed within 30'. One bleeding hit - and it's curtains.
Richard
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The problem with bleed as it currently stands, in my opinion, is not that it imbalances an encounter when PCs are just slugging it out, it's that it becomes a (slow) death attack for anything which can't heal itself.
Admittedly, I hadn't thought of allowing a creature like a Roc, or a T-Rex, the ability to do its own Heal check. Otherwise, a 2nd level Rogue with a bow hiding up in a tree would be the bane of all monsters that passed within 30'. One bleeding hit - and it's curtains.
Richard
Well, for what it's worth, if you don't have much experience with animals, then I can understand thinking they can't do an untrained heal check. But if you work with them as much as I have (I both hunt and grew up working on a farm) then you know that it's actually quite common.
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The problem with bleed as it currently stands, in my opinion, is not that it imbalances an encounter when PCs are just slugging it out, it's that it becomes a (slow) death attack for anything which can't heal itself.
How much damage is being inflicted by bleed? Seems unlikely most creatures will bleed out.
Assuming +0 Heal and attempting to heal each round:
1/ 75%
2/ 56%
3/ 42%
4/ 32%
5/ 24%
6/ 18%
7/ 13%
8/ 10%
9/ 7.5%
10/ 5.6%
Edit: Many animals have a 12 WIS for +1 on heal:
1/ 70%
2/ 49%
3/ 34%
4/ 24%
5/ 17%
6/ 12%
7/ 8.2%
8/ 5.7%
So there is a small chance a level appropriate challenge might bleed out but seems unlikely to me.
Personally, I hate the save idea, a player chooses bleed as a rogue talent, works to get in a favorable situation for a sneak attack and then the creature blows off the bleed effect with a save. Having said that, its your game, your house rule, if it makes it more fun for your group go for it
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I'm preferring the idea of making Heal a class skill, rather than the s.t.
The Roc in my example, BTW, was hit with Bleed 5. It was flying, obviously, so I suppose the first question is how long before it gets a chance to try to lick its wounds (with a beak! - well anyway).
Ok, even given that, I understand the maths, its simply the logic of allowing Heal to be a class skill which I'm arguing for. It would seem *very* fundamental to just about everything alive.
Richard
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so Bleed 5 means 40 hit points damage after 8 rounds (out of 120 total). If you assume it uses the "Run" action to get away, it might spend 2-3 rounds withdrawing and running away then land and heal.
Also, I think you can make a heal check while flying, move action to keep airborne + standard to heal.
Contributor
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Ok, even given that, I understand the maths, its simply the logic of allowing Heal to be a class skill which I'm arguing for. It would seem *very* fundamental to just about everything alive.
I would think that the "use untrained" aspect is more reflective of its fundamental nature than making it a class skill. Class skills are those in which you receive specialized training. Additionally, you don't get that +3 bonus unless you take ranks in the skill, either.
In my view, wild animals may be a bad example. Yes, they can staunch bleeding from superficial wounds and survive some accidents that would seem pretty serious, but they can't close a grievous wound from an arrow or other weapon. Additionally, they can't really be trained in advanced healing techniques, so giving them a rank in Heal is a bit of a stretch for me. Giving them a chance to stop bleeding with an untrained skill check (i.e., Wisdom check) is sufficient.
For creatures of higher intellect, understanding how to properly clean and treat wounds would give them a better chance to stop bleeding, etc. That's where ranks in the Heal skill would come in, in my opinion.
I'm glad you're leaning toward a skill check rather than a saving throw.
1) Bleed is already a weak enough strategy in a game where a monster can fight at full effectiveness all the way down to 1 HP.
2) Rolling a saving throw during every round of combat for every bleed effect is a lot of extra dice during combat.
As far as animals rolling untrained vs. having heal as a class skill, I don't think it really matters. Personally, I would just wing it anyway.
Monster has 4 HP left and is bleeding for 5 = dead monster.
Monster has 40 HP left and is bleeding for 5 = monster hiding out nearby at 20 HP, trying not to get found by predators.
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Clearly some animals should get heal as a class skill :D
The ability to locate stranded skiers and deliver copious amounts of brandy certainly qualifies them as saints, in my opinion. But they're still not doctors. ;)
Animals have instincts, adaption, and some ability to be trained.
The one less bleed a round possibly represents clotting, redirecting blood flow, and general health. Of course they need to stop and rest to do that. They should make a knight move(straight, then a random angle) so they can't be followed by guesswork.
