RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I saw the phrase meta-gaming again.....
In role-playing games, a player is metagaming when they use knowledge that is not available to their character in order to change the way they play their character (usually to give them an advantage within the game), such as knowledge of the mathematical nature of character statistics, or the statistics of a creature that the player is familiar with but the character has never encountered. In general, it refers to any gaps between player knowledge and character knowledge which the player acts upon.
How is it meta-gaming to say my PC does as I decide he does rather than some actions dictated by other people's interpretations of the variable rules......
(I pointed out the variations all the way back to 1E previously..........)Actually the whole point of this thread was a halfling mechanically with some kender-like feats etc!
If the kender is stealing from NPCs, random strangers, etc. but switches this 'off' when it comes to his party members, that's metagaming.
If the kender steals break from the baker, picks the shiny bauble off the goblin, but doesn't go after the princess' bracelet, or doesn't ask the arch mage what he's wearing under his robes, that's metagaming.
If the kender is "utterly fearless, insatiably curious, unstoppably mobile and independent, and will pick up anything that is not nailed down (though kender with claw hammers will get those things as well)" EXCEPT when it would get him killed by party members and high level wizards, that's metagaming.
If you're playing a 6'4" clean shaven Fighter, he's not a dwarf, no matter what you call him. If you play a 3' tall elf who can't see in the dark and lives for only 40 years, he's not an elf. If you play a 3' tall human looking humanoid that doesn't have "Intense curiosity is a trait ingrained in their souls and minds from their racial creation by the Greystone of Gargath. They cannot be other than what they are - natural thieves." you're playing a halfling.
One level in sorcerer, cast reduce, place in pouch. ;-)Okay, I'd pay GOOD money to see a Kender actually steal goalposts, fit them into his pocket, and walk away with them!Still, my noble foe, this gets into moving goalposts when it comes to the way Kender are described(pro- and anti-kender bias play a role here as well). In the most recent edition, they get very different writeups in the Bestiary, Races, and Core books, although their abilities rarely differ(which is where editions come in to play).Well, playing a kender in a way that doesn't infuriate 99% of the gaming world would qualify as "meta". The character may not know a bunch of gamers on Earth rue the day his race was penned into existence, but the player does. Staying alive is "advantageous" after all! ;-)I saw the phrase meta-gaming again.....
In role-playing games, a player is metagaming when they use knowledge that is not available to their character in order to change the way they play their character (usually to give them an advantage within the game), such as knowledge of the mathematical nature of character statistics, or the statistics of a creature that the player is familiar with but the character has never encountered. In general, it refers to any gaps between player knowledge and character knowledge which the player acts upon.
How is it meta-gaming to say my PC does as I decide he does rather than some actions dictated by other people's interpretations of the variable rules......
(I pointed out the variations all the way back to 1E previously..........)Actually the whole point of this thread was a halfling mechanically with some kender-like feats etc!
Look, I wasn't the one who gave that kender the screwdriver. Blame him for moving the goalposts (into his pocket)...
;-)
Reduce wouldn't make it small enough to fit in pocket...But it would make it a KICKASS HOOPAK!!!
How is it meta-gaming to say my PC does as I decide he does rather than some actions dictated by other people's interpretations of the variable rules......
(I pointed out the variations all the way back to 1E previously..........)
If your character's actions are influenced by your player knowledge of things your character does not know, then that's metagaming.
For example, stealing the coins off a dead child's eyes is a horrible desecration of a human funerary rite that goes back to ancient Roman days. So many humans know this that it's become proverbial for penny-pinching wickedness.
Would kender know of this custom or practice it? Given that their culture does not go back to ancient Rome, nor is it even vaguely based on it, probably not. In fact, if Kender aren't buried naked, they probably end up that way pretty quickly because the other Kender would likely dig them up to see if they had anything interesting left in their pockets.
Regardless, the GM gives the scenario: The party has entered a tomb. The Kender player asks if there's anything interesting to catch his eye. The GM says there are two ancient coins on the dead child's eyes, with fascinating mint marks but the obverse of the coins cannot be seen because they're resting on the eyes of the corpse.
Now, the kender, by definition, has no fear so should not be creeped out by a little dead girl, especially one that's not moving. The kender moreover has absolutely no respect for personal space or personal property and would happily take the coins off the eyes of a sleeping child, so there's nothing stopping them there either. In fact, the only thing stopping the character is meta-game knowledge that this is a horrible desecration of a human funerary rite and the humans in the party would view him as an awful ghoul were he to touch the coins.
If the kender says, "Oh poot! Coins are boring! Tee hee! I'm going to go poke at the cobwebs instead!" I think it's utterly fair to say that he kender's player is metagaming, piloting his or her character away from deadly social pitfalls by means of metagame knowledge of how such actions will be viewed.
I saw the phrase meta-gaming again.....
In role-playing games, a player is metagaming when they use knowledge that is not available to their character in order to change the way they play their character (usually to give them an advantage within the game), such as knowledge of the mathematical nature of character statistics, or the statistics of a creature that the player is familiar with but the character has never encountered. In general, it refers to any gaps between player knowledge and character knowledge which the player acts upon.
How is it meta-gaming to say my PC does as I decide he does rather than some actions dictated by other people's interpretations of the variable rules......
(I pointed out the variations all the way back to 1E previously..........)Actually the whole point of this thread was a halfling mechanically with some kender-like feats etc!
If the kender is stealing from NPCs, random strangers, etc. but switches this 'off' when it comes to his party members, that's metagaming.
If the kender steals break from the baker, picks the shiny bauble off the goblin, but doesn't go after the princess' bracelet, or doesn't ask the arch mage what he's wearing under his robes, that's metagaming.
If the kender is "utterly fearless, insatiably curious, unstoppably mobile and independent, and will pick up anything that is not nailed down (though kender with claw hammers will get those things as well)" EXCEPT when it would get him killed by party members and high level wizards, that's metagaming.
If you're playing a 6'4" clean shaven Fighter, he's not a dwarf, no matter what you call him. If you play a 3' tall elf who can't see in the dark and lives for only 40 years, he's not an elf. If you play a 3' tall human looking humanoid that doesn't have "Intense curiosity is a trait ingrained in their souls and minds from their racial creation by the Greystone of Gargath. They cannot be other than what they are - natural thieves." you're playing a halfling.
Again, issues with description. Authors have gone back and forth with how kender view things their (non-Kender!)friends value and the feelings thereof, as well as their ability to learn from their "mistakes".
That said, I think he'd gladly lift something off the princess at a party, though it doesn't necessarily have to be the tiara or jewelry she's wearing. Ditto on asking what an archmage has on under his robes- that's not the end of the world. Signet rings? Yeah, kender will run off with that.
In fact, if Kender aren't buried naked, they probably end up that way pretty quickly because the other Kender would likely dig them up to see if they had anything interesting left in their pockets.
I think most official and fan-based stuff disproves this. I'll have to check my stuff at home. I remember I found the funerary rituals fascinating, though they have slipped my mind at the moment.
A kender....
What about team Kender or a team of kender, parading the goalpost through the streets, cheering that they won!
Kender are from Detroit? (Wait, they haven't won anything in a while)..
Kender are from Philly?
LOL!!!!!!
So what stops me from stealing from everyone, but turning around after taking something and telling said party member,
"Hey I found your sword; you left it at the brothel....I guess you did not want to get carried away with all that stabbing and thrusting."
What stops you is that nowhere in any of the Kender racial descriptions that I've read do Kender ever return anything they "handle" unless specifically asked for it back and called on the theft.
All the descriptions I've read (and that's a lot of them) say that Kender either put it in their pockets to examine later or else forget it somewhere.
If a Kender ever returned something that they'd "borrowed" voluntarily as an idea they'd come up with on their own, I think the Grey Gem of Gargath would shatter at the impossibility.
Honestly, point to a line in any product that talks about kender ever returning things apart from when they're confronted for being thieves.
In fact, if Kender aren't buried naked, they probably end up that way pretty quickly because the other Kender would likely dig them up to see if they had anything interesting left in their pockets.I think most official and fan-based stuff disproves this. I'll have to check my stuff at home. I remember I found the funerary rituals fascinating, though they have slipped my mind at the moment.
I'm really not interested in the fan-based stuff, because with the way the official write-up oozes with Mary Sue-ness, I can only imagine the fan material.
If you have an official quote on Kender funerary rites, I'd like to see it.
If a Kender ever returned something that they'd "borrowed" voluntarily as an idea they'd come up with on their own, I think the Grey Gem of Gargath would shatter at the impossibility.
This has happened a number of times in fiction, and the non-Kender are always flabbergasted when it happens.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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So what stops me from stealing from everyone, but turning around after taking something and telling said party member,
"Hey I found your sword; you left it at the brothel....I guess you did not want to get carried away with all that stabbing and thrusting."
Do you do it for *every* thing you handle? Or does this specific example only reply to when you're stealing from PCs?
Taking the coins off a corpse is not evil. Taboo, but not evil.Kender are not evil!
Likely my PC kender would be distraught and very upset about the little girl being dead and ask the cleric if we can talk to her or if he can bring her back.....
Kender are not evil!
This sorta kinda gets into culture and alignment arguments in gaming, which is a path I'm not sure we all want to go down(yet again!).
The long and short of kender were in 1 E they had a racial write-up that first stated one thing and then had the word but, or something else....
Please post this as a quote, and/or cite the book and page, because this is not in keeping with the rest of the sources previously cited (1E-era Dragon Magazine, 1-E era DL modules, Dragonlance fiction, 3E/3.5 Dragonlance, etc.)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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So what stops me from stealing from everyone, but turning around after taking something and telling said party member,
"Hey I found your sword; you left it at the brothel....I guess you did not want to get carried away with all that stabbing and thrusting."
Do you do it for *every* thing you handle? Or does this specific example only reply to when you're stealing from PCs?
Do you do it for *every* thing you handle? Or does this specific example only reply to when you're stealing from PCs?So what stops me from stealing from everyone, but turning around after taking something and telling said party member,
"Hey I found your sword; you left it at the brothel....I guess you did not want to get carried away with all that stabbing and thrusting."
I've seen it used in conversation in fiction with people who would be considered NPCs. It's fiction, but it's all I have to go on.
This sorta kinda gets into culture and alignment arguments in gaming, which is a path I'm not sure we all want to go down(yet again!).I could point you to the Additional Rules section of the PRD and you could point out where in the description of evil acts supports grave robbing as evil. :)
Makes you feel bad about most adventurers then, with all that grave robbing they do. :)
Kender are not evil!
Likely my PC kender would be distraught and very upset about the little girl being dead and ask the cleric if we can talk to her or if he can bring her back.....
Kender are not evil!
Why would your PC kender be distraught and upset? What do you base this off of? Kender aren't afraid of death, because, to a kender,
death is the start of the next truly big adventure.
I suppose a kender could be curious why she's dead so young, and ask the cleric to Speak With Dead to determine the cause, but that's stretching.
The emotional freak-out you describe? Not at all within type.
Kender are not evil!
Likely my PC kender would be distraught and very upset about the little girl being dead and ask the cleric if we can talk to her or if he can bring her back.....
Kender are not evil!
Why would your PC kender be distraught and upset? What do you base this off of? Kender aren't afraid of death, because, to a kender,
death is the start of the next truly big adventure.I suppose a kender could be curious why she's dead so young, and ask the cleric to Speak With Dead to determine the cause, but that's stretching.
The emotional freak-out you describe? Not at all within type.
The way I read it, kender view death as an adventure...for themselves and other kender. Not so much aimed towards other races, but I would see them as being more curious than sad unless they knew the person or the situation was truly heartbreaking.
Kender are not evil!
Likely my PC kender would be distraught and very upset about the little girl being dead and ask the cleric if we can talk to her or if he can bring her back.....
Kender are not evil!
Why would your PC kender be distraught and upset? What do you base this off of? Kender aren't afraid of death, because, to a kender,
death is the start of the next truly big adventure.I suppose a kender could be curious why she's dead so young, and ask the cleric to Speak With Dead to determine the cause, but that's stretching.
The emotional freak-out you describe? Not at all within type.
Yes it is, a short story in the 1st edition racial description describes a ranger who shot a deer that was the pet of a kender village the kender were all so distraught and upset (crying and such)that the ranger quested to find a druid to heal the deer........
I am tempted to post the entire 1E write-up just to show the contradictions in the whole thing, but being upset about a deer and a dead human child should be similar.........
I wouldn't post the story itself, but perhaps a synopsis.
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Makes you feel bad about most adventurers then, with all that grave robbing they do. :)This sorta kinda gets into culture and alignment arguments in gaming, which is a path I'm not sure we all want to go down(yet again!).I could point you to the Additional Rules section of the PRD and you could point out where in the description of evil acts supports grave robbing as evil. :)
I don't put alignments on my character sheets, but I'm honest, they're all grave robbers. And probably evil on some level.
But at least I have the decency to kill you before I "handle" your stuff...
;-)
How is it meta-gaming to say my PC does as I decide he does rather than some actions dictated by other people's interpretations of the variable rules......
(I pointed out the variations all the way back to 1E previously..........)If your character's actions are influenced by your player knowledge of things your character does not know, then that's metagaming.
For example, stealing the coins off a dead child's eyes is a horrible desecration of a human funerary rite that goes back to ancient Roman days. So many humans know this that it's become proverbial for penny-pinching wickedness.
If the kender says, "Oh poot! Coins are boring! Tee hee! I'm going to go poke at the cobwebs instead!" I think it's utterly fair to say that he kender's player is...
Kender are not evil!
Likely my PC kender would be distraught and very upset about the little girl being dead and ask the cleric if we can talk to her or if he can bring her back.....
Kender are not evil!
Kender may not be evil, but do they have some magical meta-game knowledge of what other cultures consider "evil" or would be a desecration of human funerary rites?
A magpie could take the coins off the dead girl's eyes and not be evil. It's an animal acting on instinct taking shiny objects to decorate it's nest. Ditto a packrat.
If the kender were to take the coins off the child's eyes, it would not be evil act if done in ignorance of human funerary rites. It would be perceived as an evil act, but would not be one.
If the Kender's player is more concerned about perception than actuality, he's metagaming. In fact, even if taking the coins in ignorance were counted as an evil act regardless of ignorance, it would still be metagaming to pilot the kender away from any act that the players knows to be evil but the character doesn't.
So the Kender player asks the cleric if he can bring the dead girl back to life. The cleric then says he'd need to know how long ago she died to see if this was possible or would just be a waste of diamonds. Also, unfortunately, he didn't prepare Speak with Dead today so they can't just ask her when she died--but the Kender knows that coins are commonly stamped with dates! If they just flip over the coins on her eyes, they may be able to read a date and figure out how long ago she was buried!
So, given that, would the Kender touch the coins or not?
Don't just chant "Kender are not evil!" Give a good rational explanation for what exactly the Kender would do, given his knowledge of common minting practices and his lack of knowledge of human funerary rites.
Kender may not be evil, but do they have some magical meta-game knowledge of what other cultures consider "evil" or would be a desecration of human funerary rites?
A magpie could take the coins off the dead girl's eyes and not be evil. It's an animal acting on instinct taking shiny objects to decorate it's nest. Ditto a packrat.
If the kender were to take the coins off the child's eyes, it would not be evil act if done in ignorance of human funerary rites. It would be perceived as an evil act, but would not be one.
If the Kender's player is more concerned about perception than actuality, he's metagaming. In fact, even if taking the coins in ignorance were counted as an evil act regardless of ignorance, it would still be metagaming to pilot the kender away from any act that the players knows to be evil but the character doesn't.
So the Kender player asks the cleric if he can bring the dead girl back to life. The cleric then says he'd need to know how long ago she died to see if this was possible or would just be a waste of diamonds. Also, unfortunately, he didn't prepare Speak with Dead today so they can't just ask her when she died--but the Kender knows that coins are commonly stamped with dates! If they just flip over the coins on her eyes, they may be able to read a date and figure out how long ago she was buried!
So, given that, would the Kender touch the coins or not?
Don't just chant "Kender are not evil!" Give a good rational explanation for what exactly the Kender would do, given his knowledge of common minting practices and his lack of knowledge of human funerary rites.
Now THAT'S a good situation. But you mentioned whether or not the kender would TOUCH the coins, not necessarily handle them. Still, in this situation, I don't think the kender would have a problem with either, although they may be a little creeped out at the human custom of putting money on people's faces when they die(as were many non-romans at the time of this practice).
The way I read it, kender view death as an adventure...for themselves and other kender. Not so much aimed towards other races, but I would see them as being more curious than sad unless they knew the person or the situation was truly heartbreaking.
But why wouldn't they aim this towards other races?
Considering that they apply their social norms of community, borrowing, handling, tact, etc. to all other races, why wouldn't they also assume that other races have the same outlook on death?
So the basic argument is I must take the coins to play in character and avoid meta-gaming.......
Please refrain from dictating my actions!
Please.
Nobody is dictating your actions. Nobody is telling you what to do.
They're pointing out that you're not playing a kender to type, and describing believable actions and behaviors that would/should take place if you were.
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So the basic argument is I must take the coins to play in character and avoid meta-gaming.......
No, the argument was 'Don't just chant "Kender are not evil!" Give a good rational explanation for what exactly the Kender would do, given his knowledge of common minting practices and his lack of knowledge of human funerary rites.'
Quit with the 'you are telling me how to play' nonsense.
Yes, I agree the kender might not find anything interesting about that situation. But if that starts happening with EVERY situation like that, and the character only gets interested in things that won't get him in trouble, you're no longer playing a kender.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Yes poster keep posting scenarios including a behavior that must be done by the kender and then if the kender takes any other action they yell meta-gaming!So the basic argument is I must take the coins to play in character and avoid meta-gaming.......
Please refrain from dictating my actions!
Please.
Nobody is dictating your actions. Nobody is telling you what to do.
They're pointing out that you're not playing a kender to type, and describing believable actions and behaviors that would/should take place if you were.
Nope, what is being pointed out is the change in behaviour demonstrated when the consequences change.
Steal from random NPC, go carroling merrily along the way.
-Steal from PC, give back with an explaination.
Go into dungeon and set off random traps/locks to see what's in them.
-avoid all the locks and boxes in the bank.
Take stuff from dead goblin becomes hemming and hawing about taking the coins from the dead girl's eyes.
When the character's actions change solely because of non-game factors that's when you're metagaming.
You said, about returning the stolen sword, "It is to help others play well with kender" That's metagaming.
You're the only one yelling here, or at least using exclamation points which is the closest you can come on a posting board.
(Please do not use your CAPS LOCK key too.)
What I keep posting are things that would be taboo for a human but perfectly permissible for a kender, given the racial write up. You then run around chanting "Kender are not evil!" while having your kender do anything except violate the human taboo.
How is this not metagaming?
Let's say the dead girl, besides having coins on her eyes, has a doll in her hands, stuff in her pockets, and is surrounded by a veritable toyshop of grave goods--jumping jacks, hobby horses, ball-and-cup games, every lovely pretty thing a rich grieving parent could bury a child with. Does the kender touch any of this stuff or put it in his own pockets? If not, why not?
The way I read it, kender view death as an adventure...for themselves and other kender. Not so much aimed towards other races, but I would see them as being more curious than sad unless they knew the person or the situation was truly heartbreaking.But why wouldn't they aim this towards other races?
Considering that they apply their social norms of community, borrowing, handling, tact, etc. to all other races, why wouldn't they also assume that other races have the same outlook on death?
Now we're getting into an interesting area that actually has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Death and funerary customs in D&D are something of a sacred cow(or at least a don't-go-there donkey) partially because they are so important to us as human beings. Elves have elven funerals, dwarves have dwarven funerals, and while they are occasionally described, no mention is made of them applying their customs to other races should one perish in their vicinity- even one they loved and respected. They are usually buried in a fashion consistant with their own people, even if it's an ad hoc ceremony. I'd assume the same thing happens with Kender, regardless of their writeups, as a reflection of our own humanity.
So the basic argument is I must take the coins to play in character and avoid meta-gaming.......No, the argument was 'Don't just chant "Kender are not evil!" Give a good rational explanation for what exactly the Kender would do, given his knowledge of common minting practices and his lack of knowledge of human funerary rites.'
Quit with the 'you are telling me how to play' nonsense.
Yes, I agree the kender might not find anything interesting about that situation. But if that starts happening with EVERY situation like that, and the character only gets interested in things that won't get him in trouble, you're no longer playing a kender.
Unfortunately that is the nature of this argument. You are essentially telling someone how to play by saying that they are no longer playing a kender- not playing against type, not being one of the "good ones". They are no longer doing what they say they are doing, which is where feelings, rightfully imo, get disturbed. Hopefully we can keep this thread going in a way to resolve this for all involved parties without sporking one another in the eye.
No, the race write up tells you how the race must be played. You guys have not shown one thing that counters the write ups shown by the other side.
As written the race is forced to act one way. To act any other way is not to act they way the race says it acts. The actions are part of its soul, not culture, they can not be turned off, they can not be unlearned. They are as much a part of the race as blood and breathing.
You guys simply can not back up what you are saying, where the other side has shown proof you must act that way and why you must act that way.
Do not blame them that the race forces you to act they way it does. They are just calling you on not playing the race they way it says it must be played.
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Unfortunately that is the nature of this argument. You are essentially telling someone how to play by saying that they are no longer playing a kender- not playing against type, not being one of the "good ones". They are no longer doing what they say they are doing, which is where feelings, rightfully imo, get disturbed. Hopefully we can keep this thread going in a way to resolve this for all involved parties without sporking one another in the eye.
Fair enough. This HAS been a 'No TRUE Paladin' style thread for the most part...
Proof has been posted time and again, including 1e stuff. As written the race must do these things. Its part of the races soul. You can not turn it off.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I have not seen this race write up of "musts" I ask that people post them I will get the 1E write up one here soon.....
I keep (backing up what I am saying, explaining from race write-up and giving examples....such as being distraght over injury to a deer, it is not a leap to think a dead girl would illicit a similar response.
I have seen no proof that says any such thing!
I have seen people dictating kender actions and yelling meta-gaming if an alternative action is offered!
Then you should have no problem citing your examples of consistent behaviour not changing when exposed to a PC, and people saying that consistent behaviour is metagaming.
I have seen people dictating kender actions and yelling meta-gaming if an alternative action is offered!
People are "dictating" kender action based on their established write-ups.
Your "alternative action" is always based on metagaming (as explained above), and not reinforced by any write-up, and contradictory to anything published about kender.
Unfortunately that is the nature of this argument. You are essentially telling someone how to play by saying that they are no longer playing a kender- not playing against type, not being one of the "good ones". They are no longer doing what they say they are doing, which is where feelings, rightfully imo, get disturbed. Hopefully we can keep this thread going in a way to resolve this for all involved parties without sporking one another in the eye.
But, nobody is actually saying "don't do that" - they're saying "fine, but if you do that, you're not playing a kender".
There's a difference.
The kender is a tightly defined race that does certain things, and is hardwired to do those things. Altering or removing those things completely dissolves what a kender is.
You don't turn rubies green and expect people to consider them rubies still.
By all means, play what you want, but when you take an established item and change it's very essence, you've changed that item into something else entirely - something that's NOT a kender.