I've been doing some playtesting of the revised Magus class recently. It felt like between levels two and 7 where you get haste for an extra attack, spell combat didn't really have a place. It was always more worth it to spellstrike. Not only does spellstrike cause your spell to gain the threat range of the weapon, but you can move and then do it. Spell combat adds a bit more versatility in the sense that you're not limited to touch spells, but between 2 and 7, shocking grasp is your bread and butter anyway. A simple intensified causes shocking grasp to keep up with scorching ray for the same level of spell and allowing you to maintain mobility. 3/4 BAB prevents taking a minus to hit to gain a bonus to the conc check from being worth it, in my opinion. It just feels like spell combat doesn't have a strong enough niche until later. I could be missing some things, obviously, but this has been my experience in playtesting.
Additionally, the Magus pool needs to be larger, or there needs to be a way to trade a spell slot for more points or something. Those things go by pretty quickly, especially in an adventure that throws more than just a couple more encounters at you per day. I'm not saying it needs anything drastic like tripling the pool, but some sort of increase is in order. Again, this is obviously just opinion.
The arcanas that allow you to do abilities once per day, such as critical strike, concentrate and the metamagic arcanas should be free the first time and then cost points for additional usage. Once per day just feels really... for lack of a better word, lame. If it would work better to just make them cost points the entire time rather than free once per day and then points, that would be fine as well. You should be able to do those things like that more than once per day, provided that you are willing to spend resources to do so in place of spending them on other cool things.
Arcane strike should stack with the arcane pool ability. I know there's a thread that pretty much says the same thing already, but I thought I'd mention it here.
The Magus is still very MAD. To alleviate that a little bit pretty much costs two feats and shoe-horns you into using a scimitar. Some of that manifests in the save DCs for the Magus spells that require saves. They're really low. Can't have as much int as other caster classes when you have many other stats to worry about. Combine that with not being a full caster, and you have spells that are easy to save against. A solution would be one similar to what the sandman bard does; in certain situations, up the dc and caster level of spells cast by the class. For the sandman, it's when their opponent is denied dex. For the magus, it could be only when using spell combat. Perhaps doing something like making it so with spell combat, dcs increase and with spellstrike caster level to penetrate sr increases. It would certainly help give a niche for both abilities.
The capstone for the magus compared to other classes seems weak. No more conc checks are very nice, but +2 to dc, sr penetration or attack rolls for a level 20 capstone? It's not like conc checks are difficult to succeed at 20 with a dc of 27 at most for the 20th level magus. A feat and a trait pretty much make it so you can only fail on a nat one. So while not having to make conc checks is nice, I'm not sure that's worthy of a capstone. As far as the +2 to dc, sr or attack rolls... I mean... for a capstone? Again, not sure, especially compared to other classes.
I still think the arcanas would do better with a rogue talent or rage power progression, but I have accepted that it probably won't happen. I gave up on the unarmored Magus with int to ac as well :(.
I disagree with some of your concerns
1) MADness. They are melee classes with a casting stat. Pretty on par with paladins, inquisitors and bards. Unless the class features are weak, the stat allocation isn't a problem.
2) Bigger spell pool: Except for stuff that consumes multiple points (greater spells and some of the arcanas), this isn't really a problem. Whether that may need to increase or not is unclear. Trading spells will generally be weak because they can already cast cheap spells through the pool.
3) Spellstrike and Spell Combat: The two abilities aren't mutually exclusive.
You are completely right that spellstrike has some usefulness spell combat doesn't have... but that's kind of the point in them, there's no problem in that at all. There are situations where one is better than the other, and situations where you can use neither and situations where you should use both.
I disagree with some of your concerns
1) MADness. They are melee classes with a casting stat. Pretty on par with paladins, inquisitors and bards. Unless the class features are weak, the stat allocation isn't a problem.
2) Bigger spell pool: Except for stuff that consumes multiple points (greater spells and some of the arcanas), this isn't really a problem. Whether that may need to increase or not is unclear. Trading spells will generally be weak because they can already cast cheap spells through the pool.
3) Spellstrike and Spell Combat: The two abilities aren't mutually exclusive.You are completely right that spellstrike has some usefulness spell combat doesn't have... but that's kind of the point in them, there's no problem in that at all. There are situations where one is better than the other, and situations where you can use neither and situations where you should use both.
That's kind of what I'm saying... I found that in that specific level bracket, it was never worth it to use spell combat. Spellstrike was just always the better option. It would be one thing if I had to make a decision as to which to use based on the situation, but if in every situation spellstrike wins out, then there's a problem. I realize that they aren't mutually exclusive, but when you only have one attack, using spell combat with spellstrike doesn't make any sense. "Let me cast a spell and attack, but with a penalty this time, and as a full round action rather than moving and then doing it with no penalty."
As far as the pool, greater spells, conductive pool strike, metamagic, all of these things burn points, and they burnt hem quickly. I agree that trading spells would probably be weak, but I still think an increase is in order.
With regards to the paladin or inquisitor comparison, neither of those classes are designed to both cast and do melee damage equally well. The paladin is a melee combatant with a splash of casting. The paladin gets 4 levels of spell casting which are, for the most part, used to buff himself or his allies, or heal himself or his allies. Now the inquisitor is a better comparison due to being a caster with 6th levels of spells and 3/4 bab. However, the same could be said about the spell selection. It's based on the divine list, and for the most part, the spells are about buffing and utility except for certain niche situations. With the strong class features of the inquisitor, the spells still become secondary, and saving against them isn't as big of an issue since there isn't much to save against. The Magus on the other hand focuses more on damage dealing spells, and is supposed to be a class that casts and engages in melee equally well and simultaneously.
That also happens to be the levels in which your concentration checks are least reliable.
But what if you want to cast something other than a touch spell? What if the enemy ac is too high to gamble actions to deliver your touch spell?
Shield, Obscuring Mist, Grease, Color Spray. None of these can be cast through spellstrike, but a 5' step does wonders for those spells of tricky positioning when you perform a spell combat attack.
Can't Spellstrike Color Spray or Web or Invisibility.
Trading hit for conc at low levels is primarily for spells that you want to suceed and don't care about the attack.
Larger Pool? Maybe, what are you burning through your pool so quickly with that you need more?
More uses of the 1/day aracanas would be nice. Make them a better choice.
Arcane Strike stacking is being reconsidered. Additionally, I expect to see feats in UM that require Arcane Strike as a pre-req. With any luck, Arcane Strike may not really be worth the feat if you already meet the pre-req for the rest of the tree.
My Magus uses a Scimitar because it's awesome. I didn't take Dervish dance, because my DM is strict about non-Core material. Also, A Magus in heavy armor doesn't need DEX. If you take Dervish Dance then you don't need Strength. The only reason Dervish Dance is better is why I feel that adding Dex to damage is unbalanced. Dex already adds to AC and Reflex, if you give it hit and damage and CMB too, then the only thin Str is good for can be replaced by a bag of holding, which is WAY chaeper than a Belt of Strength. But, I digress.
Fact: Magus DCs are subpar. They're a 3/4 caster. Even if you could keep up with a Wizard's Int, your DCs will still be subpar. If you look at the Magus' list, though, you'll see that single target save spells are in the minority. Single target spells that have no effect on a failed save are even rarer. Most of a Magus' spells have a greater chance of doing something to somebody than your average Wizard spell. This helps to alleviate some of your low DCs. Also, 3/4 casters shouldn't be casting spell with saves to begin with.
The Capstone sucks, plain and simply. There's really no denying it. Half of it is worthless at the level you get it, the other half is more in line with a 5th - 10th level ability.
Finally, Magus Arcanas >>> Rouge Talents. Of course you don't get as many.
Can't Spellstrike Color Spray or Web or Invisibility.
The Capstone sucks, plain and simply. There's really no denying it. Half of it is worthless at the level you get it, the other half is more in line with a 5th - 10th level ability.
Finally, Magus Arcanas >>> Rouge Talents. Of course you don't get as many.
Truth on the color spray or web, though you can definitely save against those, and they're pretty situational. And you said yourself that the dcs are poor, which I agree with. Much more reliable to just do damage with something like shocking grasp.
The "average" wizard can choose any spell that the magus has.
Most of a Magus' spells have a greater chance of doing something to somebody than your average Wizard spell
doesn't work. If the wizard is concerned about it, then he can just prepare magus spells since all of them are on his vast spell list. The wizard spell list is diverse and large, so I suppose on "average" more of his spells have less of a chance to do something counting in saves, but his dcs are higher due to not having to worry about three stats. Like I said earlier, if it's a concern, it's not like the wizard can't just select spells without saves just like the magus.
More importantly, you don't get to say that a 3/4 caster shouldn't be casting spells with saves, but then give me examples of spells with saves for when spell combat wins out over spell strike in a low bracket. Which is back to my original point. A lot of the offensive things you can do with spell combat that don't revolve around just damage require saves, which you just admitted were poor. If you're looking for damage, then you're better off using shocking grasp as a touch spell with spell strike. The point I was trying to make was that in that bracket, playing in a couple of different adventures, I found myself using spellstrike about 80% of the time and spell combat about 20% of the time. I'm simply stating that it should be closer to 50/50.
Also, look at the bracket I was referring to. Magus doesn't get heavy armor until level 13. He gets medium armor at the end of that level bracket as well. Which means until level 7, you do need dex. And even in medium armor, you can definitely still use dex.
Larger Pool? Maybe, what are you burning through your pool so quickly with that you need more?
As far as the pool, greater spells, conductive pool strike, metamagic with pool spell, all of these things burn points, and they burn them quickly.
Arcane accuracy if you're worried about hit. Also adds to your point hemorrhaging.
I'll give you that some of the arcana are better than some rogue talents, but the blanket statement of magus arcana >> rogue talents doesn't work either. Crippling strike. Befuddling Strike. Offensive Defense. Dispelling attack(Incidentally there's an arcana that does this, and the rogue one is better, though it requires two other talents before it which you could argue is a decent trade off. But theirs has no limits on the spell level and technically apply to anything that takes sneak attack damage so it can happen more than once per round. And minor and major magic are great talents). Opportunist. Improved Evasion. Bonus feats. I mean... Really? Also. Rage Powers. I'm not going to list those off like I did the rogue talents. But the same thing applies. Some of the arcana are quite good, but then so are some of the rage powers and talents. Every other level is a great progression. And I definitely don't think that the arcana on the whole are strong enough to be every 3rd.
At the level they'll be using Color Spray, the Magus' DCs are maybe 1 lower than a Wizards.
The Grappled condition on a failed save is only half of what makes Web a great spell. Having to make CMB checks every round to avoid getting grappled, difficult terrain, and full cover makes Web potent even on successful saves.
Which leads me to my next point: The Magus isn't as dependent on saves as the Wizard. Most of his spells either don't grant a save, have effects on failed saves, or can effect multiple creatures. Sure the Wizard could just avoid single target spells that grant saves, but then not only is he depriving himself of some the very potent spells that give him an edge over the Magus (Polymorph Other anyone?) but he also loses some of his advantage of having such high DCs. Since he doesn't need them as much.
Chain Shirt + Shield Spell + 12 Dex = 19 AC. That's Full Plate. Sure you can't always keep shield up, but with spell pool, you'll have it when you need it, and with Spell Combat you won't have to waste a round buffing. Throw in Dodge if you want, too. He gets three bonus feats.
Can you dump Dex down to 7? No. But neither do you need more than 10-12 if you utilize buffs properly. Using Spellstrike for damage and Arcane Accuracy for hit. As well as Arcane pool to enhance your weapon, you don't need as much Str as the Fighter either. Favored class bonus helps with a mediocre Con, and go ahead blow another bonus feat on Toughness. With proper spells and feats, with a 20 point buy you'll actually have points to spare so you can get some abilities above the minimum.
Heck, you can even have more than enough points with a 15 point buy if you're willing to dump Wis and Cha.
I have yet to take itemization into account, but as you go up the ranks of armor types you rely less and less on dex, thus your itemization can shift from a "str+con+int+dex" sum to a "str+con+int", and that's only stat boni.
I have yet to take itemization into account, but as you go up the ranks of armor types you rely less and less on dex, thus your itemization can shift from a "str+con+int+dex" sum to a "str+con+int", and that's only stat boni.
This is true, but the bracket I was referring to, 2-7, doesn't include that. You get medium armor right at 7.
The Magus isn't as dependent on saves as the Wizard. Most of his spells either don't grant a save, have effects on failed saves, or can effect multiple creatures. Sure the Wizard could just avoid single target spells that grant saves, but then not only is he depriving himself of some the very potent spells that give him an edge over the Magus (Polymorph Other anyone?) but he also loses some of his advantage of having such high DCs. Since he doesn't need them as much.
This argument/comparison doesn't work properly for no other reason than the magus spell list is included in the wizard spell list. Anything the magus can cast to avoid a save or have an effect anyway, the wizard can do as well. In fact with things like ray of enfeeblement and touch of gracelessness and ray of exhaustion, the wizard arguably does it better when he really sets his mind to it. Plus, dcs aren't an issue for the wizard as you already admitted, thus, it it would be limiting to try and avoid them for the most part. If the situation arises where they do become an issue for the wizard, then the wizard can just pick spells that make it a non-issue.
I do, however, get your point. The magus list contains fewer spells proportionally that need saves and thus there is no problem. Note earlier that one of my suggestions was to increase the dc of stuff when using spell combat. Due to the nature of saves, touch spells and the magus spell list, a lot of the stuff that require saves happens to be the same stuff that you'd be using spell combat for over spellstrike, especially in the 2-7 bracket. Which, by the way, is another reason I ended up using spellstrike 8/10 times over spell combat. No saves, more mobility, more damage...I mean... kinda gets back to my original point. From a class design perspective, it should be closer to a 50/50.
So from what you've just told me, you have to blow some of these bonus feats that serve as some of your class features to grab things like toughness, and then use your favored class bonus for hp rather than options that I'm sure will be coming out in ultimate magic that will be as cool as the apg stuff, just to make up for a lackluster con. You then have to burn one of your precious 1st level slots in the 2-7 bracket or one of your 4 to 6 points(that you can definitely be using for other things between 2 and 7) to make your ac keep up due to a lack of dex for 2-7 minutes until you have to cast it again and use another precious resource doing so. Note you only have 1 bonus feat between 2-7. You don't see a problem with this?
So from what you've just told me, you have to blow some of these bonus feats that serve as some of your class features to grab things like toughness, and then use your favored class bonus for hp rather than options that I'm sure will be coming out in ultimate magic that will be as cool as the apg stuff, just to make up for a lackluster con. You then have to burn one of your precious 1st level slots in the 2-7 bracket or one of your 4 to 6 points(that you can definitely be using for other things between 2 and 7) to make your ac keep up due to a lack of dex for 2-7 minutes until you have to cast it again and use another precious resource doing so. Note you only have 1 bonus feat between 2-7. You don't see a problem with this?
What I'm saying is that he can if he wants to. Utilizing a good chunk of his class abilities I can make a Magus that can handle most level appropriate encounters with the following stat block.
S14 D10 C12 I15 W10 C10
I have to use a lot of class abilities, like you pointed out, but including a racial bonus to Int this block only cost 10 points leaving 10 points to spread around shore up whichever weakness you prefer. If you only have a 15 point buy, you'll have to dump Wis and Cha down to 8 but that still gives you 9 points to spread around.
S15 D12 C14 I16 W8 C8 - 15 point buy. No toughness needed, and where else are you going put your favored class bonus.
S14 D16 C14 I15 W7 C7 - 15 point buy. good hp. good ac even without Shield. Dam gets a boost from Arcane Pool.
And those are just a measly 15 point buy. PFS uses a 20 point buy standard because it's so hard to make MAD characters with 15. You could not dump Wis and Cha if you don't want, or go ahead and dump them and get all four other stats up to 15+.