your idea intriges me. While i am running a rise of the runelords/dragonlance "Raistlin the MageGod" crossover campaign, i do see myself doing a Wheel of Time Campaign in the next few years. I think it would be rather interesting to make the conversion and do some playtesting and just help out in general.
so where do i sign?
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Do you have the Wheel of Time D20 Book ?
Sounds interesting. I'm in.
I love both PF and WoT, so I find that idea awesome and would like to help. Not sure how much help I'll be but i'll try
I own both, and feel that the WoT magic system is THE BEST version of D20-style magic ever ... period!
Sign me up for whatever, man. I'm in like Flynn for this (actually, I *tried* some conversion work before as well, but not to PF specifically).
Normal Skills are pretty easy to convert I think. The channeler skills might need additional consideration. Otherwise most skills for most classes get compressed into managable packages but channelers still need 4 skills just to do their core function. (and they don't get that many skillpoints)
Here a few ideas on how they could be done:
Merge Concentration and Composure: The special composure abilities (ignoring cold/heat etc) are only available to Initiates and Wilders. Maybe adjust the DCs a bit upwards, as it's now easier to have it high.
Remove Invert and make it into a Lost channeling feat.
Weavesight remains much as it is, except when you have the Invert feat you can do a Weavesight check to invert the weave.
As for classes:
Wanderer makes sense to be some sort of rogue, yes. Bard... I dunno, bards are magic musicians there's no such thing in WoT. Unless you mean the jack-of-all-trades aproach, then I agree. Maybe allow some sort of "Wilderness Rogue" variant for those wanderers that didn't grow up in cities.
Woodsman is obviously close to ranger, without the casting. Animal companion might actually work.
Armsman is close to fighter.
Algai'd'siswai... hmm tough. Maybe some cross between fighter, barbarian and ranger? They don't wear armor, instead get alot of Dodge AC as they level. Instead of rage-powers they get some "veiled-powers" (might need a better name). When veiled the Aiel enters a different state of mind, he's ready to fight and kill now. He's extremely focused and his senses are sharper now. Due to that he gets a bonus to Str and Dex (aka to Attack/damage and AC) and to his intimidate skill. However he can't use any social skills except intimidate. This focused state of mind is exhausing and can only be held for a number of rounds per day, after that veiling only gives the intimidate bonus (but obviously makes everyone around him nervous and probably causes them to attack instead)
Channeling is pretty cool as it is but the Wilder/Initiate class might need an overhaul too.
They are a mix of Wizard and Sorcerer, the potentially unlimited amount of weaves they can know like a wizard and the spontanous casting them like a sorc. That fits pretty well with how channelers work in WoT so that should definitely remain like that.
However except that Initiate gets a couple more feats and more high level weaves and Wilders get some bonus to overchanneling and a faster progression at lower levels, both classes are very similar.
Maybe come up with something to distinguish them a bit more? (I don't have any idea right now)
One of the things we did in our current WoT game was turn Warder from a PrC into a EL1 template, since it was the result of weave, and was instantaneous.
Our Algai'd'siswai is a revised version from a netbook...it's basicly a fighter/monk that flurries with spears, no armor but allows bucklers (of course). They get bonuses to stealth, spear damage, speed and endurance stuff as they level. I'm playing him and he kicks alot of butt :) It may sound powerful, but any one o the aes sedai in the grp could fry him in an instant (we're all 14th level atm).
I too would like to help!
I also think the other classes could use an overhaul, and I think the use of archtypes would be way better than having a different PrC to represent everything in the books ;)
i have both books, so having them on hand for reference isnt a problem.
i like the idea that quatar put forth, of the Algai'd'siswai having a "vieled-powers" effect. i think the name actually works perfectly, since the aiel viel their faces when they go into battle.
and, just for the record, im putting it forth right now that an aiel can viel his/her face as a free action.
also, the flame and the void. granted it helps males with channeling, but reading the history, all of the great fighters have made reference to the idea/philosophy of the flame and void. Maybe that could be a combat feat for fighters.
Flame and the void: by funneling ones emotions, to include happiness, sadness, fear, anger, jealousy, etc, into a flame to burn away, the fighter is left with only the cold void of prepardness for battle.
bonus: gain a +X to unnamed attack and AC bonus equal to half your total hit die.
special requirement: must be taught by a mentor who follows the flame and the void.
I like warder as a template, do you think we can balance it to EL0, cause I mean the fact that you can be kinda compelled and the fact that if your squishy dies your filled with an urge to run at the nearest thing with a blade.
Well, what we had done was look for examples where people discussed details of the bond in the books. We came up with stronger, hardier, faster, tougher. I don't remember all that well, as my character has only recently been bonded (Aiel warders FTW).
IIRC, its +2 Str, Dex and Con, DR 2\- that increases with HD, Endurance feat, and sense shadowspawn 60 ft.All of the compulsion, transfer of HP and other stuff that is described in the weave "Bond Warder", and we left it there so there'd be no overlap of information.
So basicly the Bond Warder weave says it forms a bond with a person for the purposes of defending the Aes Sedai, has the following side effects, and the target gains the warder template. Then in the warder template discuss all that is gained from the weave.
Another idea I had was making "channeler" an actual race that was above normal race. Dedicated channelers can pretty much destroy handily any other class in the game, so trying for balance is rediculous.
On the other hand, i think charging a player to play a channeler is a good way to temper them, with their overall character level being 1 or 2 levels higher than a non-channeler to cost more Xp to level.
Anyhoo, when person is a channeler, they eventually figure out how to do things whether they are trained or not. The idea was only channelers could take a channeling class, but if they chose not to, they would still know 1 talent and have 1 affinity, and know CON bonus in weaves in their talent only, with HD determining when they could learn or know it. Males would also gain a bonus channeling feat and know an extra weave per 3 HD. If they took actual channeling classes, they'd gain that in addition to their "racial" talents.
They could hide thier ability (except from other channelers) but in other ways incorporate it into their other chosen vocation.
A channeler from a certain place would still gain the normal RP stuff from the area they were from as well, hence the higher cost.
So, you could play a human, an Ogier, or a channeler.
Bardic Knowledge for wanderers sounds like a cool idea, i'm not sure how it can be called and explained though.
Invert/weavesight: No, you have to make the decission to invert when you cast the weave, and then you don't even see that there's any channeling being done. I think you can invert a tied off weave later, in which case I figure anyone who can see the weave sees it vanish but not why or how.
I'm not really sure anymore how it was explained in the novels though, it's been a while.
I guess you're right with Composure, it shouldn't be have been a channeler skill to start with. Most non-channelers probably won't skill Concentration anyway, so it won't matter too much. Also Channelers are more powerful than anything else anyway, so strengthening non-channelers a bit certainly won't be gamebreaking.
Yeah, I forgot about the defense bonus when I wrote this, that takes care of the non-armor fighting already of course.
But yeah powers like Uncanny Dodge or evasion sure fit an Aiel that's in "combat-mode"
Of course free action. It's sorta inspired by rage-powers whihc is free action too.
And yeah throwing in some monk for a flurry or so... maybe. We should be careful to make the algai'd'siswai not too powerful. I know in the novels they're supermen and a single one tears through an army, but they basicly share their role with the Armsmen, they should not be better in every regard.
Maybe actually reduce their defense while veiled, upgrade their damage. That way armsmen are the "tanks" while algai are DPS to stay in MMO terms. But that doesn't really work out in a tabletop game.
You're right, Wilder/Initiates are mostly different in the fluff.
That's why I was thinking after I'd written my post.
Wilders and Initiates share the same role, but when you look at the fact that Wilders get a single 9th level weave and initates get 4, that seems quite unfair. It makes Initiates alot better in the endgame, those few skillpoint boni or the overchannel bonus doesn't make up for it really.
Wizard and Sorcerers also share the same role, but while one has the advantage of knowing all spells he has to decide at the start of the day which and how many of each spells he wants to prepare, while the Sorc can just decide on the fly and technically cast the same spell 10 times in a row.
We could just make a single channeler class. Call it "Channeler", "Initiate" or "Wilder" or whatever else.
Those get the Initiate fluff and mechanics, while there's an alternate Archetype "Wilder" that gives them the block as well as a couple of bonus to make up for it, like getting 2nd to 4th level spells a level faster or so, but in the endgame they're all pretty much the same.
I dunno if they really should get different spell-progression, since that causes the same problem again at lower levels where then the wilder is better.
Being able to cast low level weaves without the Talent and the overchannel bonus might make the Block worth it (essentially the cost is the feat to get rid of the block, not the block itself).
Another thing I liked was the Spellpool option from Under the Dragon Banner netbook. It seems to model how the One Power works better than D&D spell levels. Doesn't the Magus from that playtest that is running something like a powerpool? I've not read it, only saw some forumposts about it, but might that be something that could work for channelers?
But one thing we should be careful about, or decide: Do we want to mostly convert things, so it runs with the new rules or actively change alot of stuff, that we consider broken, or just don't like?
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I know I'm gonna get alot of "boos" for this, but I always thought the psionics rules in the 3.5 XPH would fit channeling better than the channeling rules did. The "pay x for basic effect" then adding on points to augment it seemed way better, and give the player more control.
I think using a point based system would also allow for greater control over mixing up weaves (ie. rolling rings of earth and fire) and leave things general enough to not pigeon hole certain weaves into certain effects.
You look at the effects some aes sedai or ashaman are able to pull off quickly in the books, and then look at the existing mechanics, they're not possible. This needs to be corrected, imho.
I won't Boo you, because I have to admit I so far avoided Psionics. Completely. I have no clue how they work :)
Which book is that in so I can read it?
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I won't Boo you, because I have to admit I so far avoided Psionics. Completely. I have no clue how they work :)
Which book is that in so I can read it?
Expanded Psionics Handbook 3.5
Dreamscarred Press took those rules though and converted them to pathfinder, if you'd rather look at that. it's called Psionics Unleashed.Also:
WIS vs CHA channeleing should be divided by sex, not by class.
A female wilder channels the same exact way a female initiate does.
The only difference in how to channel is dependant on the sex of the channeler, as per the books.
I just figured +str/dex for the algai since they're deadly killing machines of death leaving death in their wake.
Yeah barbarian certainly fits them, Monk, I'm not so sure really. I think ranger would fit them better. They're excellent trackers and survival specialists.
New race, no, they're not a seperate race, they're all humans.
Extra feat... "Latent Channeler" or so, allows you to learn when instructed. probably gives you afew level 0 weaves 1/day or so, when you don't have a channeling class. Taking a/the channeling class gives you the feat for free. Not really sure thats a good idea though.
Spell pool from UtDB is like its in UA I think. Which what little I've found when googling for psionics seems pretty much what psionics use.
Basicly you have 20 points, a level 3 weave costs 3 points, leaves you with 17 to spend however you want. If you cast it at level 6 it costs 6 points.
The amount of points everyone gets, how much a weave costs etc can be discussed and changed.
Also you might want to say there's a maximum you can spend per round. For example a level 2 wilder has 10 spellpoints. That means if she knows a weave thats 0-8 level or so, she could cast it at 8th level at level 2... that's just wrong. It also makes overchanneling completely pointless (why overchannel and risk getting stilled when you can just spend one or two points more). A level 2 wilder origianlly can cast level 2 weaves, so she could spend 2 points/round. If she wants to cast the weave at 3rd or 4th level she has to overchannel. At level 20 you can spend 9/round, so if you want to cast 10-12 level spells, overchannel or use an angreal.
Ah, misunderstanding with the str/dex :)
While algai are deadly killing machines of death we shouldn't make them too deadly. Even though it might make sense in the novels, its a bad thing to do in a game.
Evasion and Uncanny Dodge can appear in the normal level progression for them, sure. Or as veil powers.
ji'e'toh is more a roleplay thing, I wouldn't make any rules for that. I wouldn't know how either.
I just figured +str/dex for the algai since they're deadly killing machines of death leaving death in their wake.
Yeah barbarian certainly fits them, Monk, I'm not so sure really. I think ranger would fit them better. They're excellent trackers and survival specialists.New race, no, they're not a seperate race, they're all humans.
Extra feat... "Latent Channeler" or so, allows you to learn when instructed. probably gives you afew level 0 weaves 1/day or so, when you don't have a channeling class. Taking a/the channeling class gives you the feat for free. Not really sure thats a good idea though.Spell pool from UtDB is like its in UA I think. Which what little I've found when googling for psionics seems pretty much what psionics use.
Basicly you have 20 points, a level 3 weave costs 3 points, leaves you with 17 to spend however you want. If you cast it at level 6 it costs 6 points.
The amount of points everyone gets, how much a weave costs etc can be discussed and changed.
Also you might want to say there's a maximum you can spend per round. For example a level 2 wilder has 10 spellpoints. That means if she knows a weave thats 0-8 level or so, she could cast it at 8th level at level 2... that's just wrong. It also makes overchanneling completely pointless (why overchannel and risk getting stilled when you can just spend one or two points more). A level 2 wilder origianlly can cast level 2 weaves, so she could spend 2 points/round. If she wants to cast the weave at 3rd or 4th level she has to overchannel. At level 20 you can spend 9/round, so if you want to cast 10-12 level spells, overchannel or use an angreal.
Maximum is your level. A 9th level Psion can only spend 9 points on augments, and the power costs are fixed at the level of the power itself. So...
9 th level Psion manifests 5th level power, can only spend a max of 14 points on that one power out of a total of like 50 points for the day, iirc.
I'd say before we get started doing any fixing on any class, we'd first should have a list or something with what needs fixing in the first place (we sort of did that here, but something a bit more organised etc). Also should have a rough idea how we fix it.
Not that we end up making a super awesome algai and then have to tear half of it down again because we just can't make anything comparable in any of the other classes.
sorry I meant the no str/dex bonus for warders, it makes perfect sense for algai to get the bonus to str/dex
Algai should also have Endurance in there somewhere.
The only monk abilities I meant were Evasion and improved evasion. Algai are meant to fast dangerous warriors who run circles around wetlanders.
Do you think there is any way to work Ji'e'toh into the class?
All in all, the template for warder we have, compared to other templates in the bestiary, is BARELY a 1 level equivalent.
I'll try to hunt down a copy and post it.
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The WOT Has always been a facorite series for me. I have all the WOT books, the netboots and even the dragon mag articles. So I am all for helping out.
Wouldn't the warder work out better as Prestige Class with one of the pre-reqs being the bond? You would just need to add the powers granted through the bond as some of the abilities of the warder.
The WOT Has always been a facorite series for me. I have all the WOT books, the netboots and even the dragon mag articles. So I am all for helping out.
Wouldn't the warder work out better as Prestige Class with one of the pre-reqs being the bond? You would just need to add the powers granted through the bond as some of the abilities of the warder.
Reason why we changed it is because it didn't make sense to charge a player the levels required to take the PrC, when a template would suffice and only cost him one level.
The warders in our party were better served taking either more levels of armsman or weapon master, but instead had to take levels of a (imho) BS PrC. Mechanicly this sucks, and in game, why would an Aes Sedai ever bond a warder, when all it does is retard his abilities in combat and over a few levels actually make him a worse fighter?This came to light when we in-game encounterd Seanchan who had only levels of armsman, and had very little difficulty taking the warders out.
Granted, not every warder is Lan, but alot of them are weaponmasters. They shouldn't get pwned by trash NPCs.
so far, a list of changes...
1) warder.
2) Algai'd'siswai, tweaks include giving the class more barbarian abilities along with a smattering of either ranger or monk extras.
3) Channelers in general.
4)veil powers
5)ji'e'toh- make it like a paladins code? something else? or just leave as a roleplay
6)the magic system. keep original? or change to psionics or something else?
I can see taking Warder and giving it a redux as more of a transformative class like Dragon Disciple is, and opening up the specific feat slots as bonus feats. I like their near Uncanny dodge however as flavor. I kinda ant to lower the prereqs a bit, cause in theory if you have een bonded you should be able to enter this class, and an Aes Sedai need not bond only a warrior.
The only way I can see this working is if you make a warder a full base class with 20 levels, and even then, I dunno.
An Aes Sedai can bond whomever she wants, with permission.But honestly, she is not going to pick someone who's choice will endanger both of them (ie. not a fighter type).
A warder is a defender for her and also a HP battery.
Picking someone who can fight, but isn't a frontline type, means less HP and less ability to stop someone from getting to her, meaning they both will go down faster. Just my 2 cp.
But follwoing the "she can bond anyone" then why not just leave it a template? Why make that person take levels in a PrC or class they aren't interested in in the first place?
Remember, in Pathfinder, the core classes should be stronger, and the PrCs should be few and far between, and also be very specialized. Slight differences in core calsses should be handled via archtypes. If we're gonna "pathfinder-ize" WoT, we need to divorce ourselves from the stuff in the book that makes it cling to 3.0/old D20 stuff. Also, just my 2 cp.
i think the warder should be a template. bonuses to str, dex, con, maybe some one-source induced benifits like defensive awareness and a bonus to initiative. But, thinking back on the story, alot of what warders learned, majority of them learned it before becoming a warder. Alot of them are blademasters, they may not have the heron-marked blade, but can still hold their own against everything else.
i have more, but i have to work....
Kryzbyn, that was one of the strangest arguments I think I have ever heard. You brutally boiled down what should be a completely RP based decision into a munchkined out consideration of the rules.
While yes most Aes Sedai do use a similar logic, Towers of Midnight saw an inversion of this, and I doubt it's the only time.
Well we will have to be careful to balance out this template so it's simultaneously worth this level but not so strong to make everyone want it.
However we need to find someway to make sure it's not abused, I mean an Aes Sedai can have as many warders as they want. I think that may have been the original purpose of using the Prestige class.
Munchkined out? Really?
So I point out the RP reasons why an Aes Sedai wouldn't just go about willy nilly bonding people, and why as a PrC it stinks mechanicly for a player, it's munchkin? Interesting.
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I'll have to see if I can find the link again, but there is a really good pdf fan book that expands upon the original d20 WOT book. I downloaded it and printed it out to use in my d20 games, it really is well done.
on a side note I have heard that once the WOT book series is done there will be an RPG released for it and (this is all just rumors that I have not verified in any way) that Green Ronin is the front runner for releasing it. If anyone has else has heard about this please share the info.
I meant no insult by what I said, and did not intend to insinuate your a munchkin.
I have heard no such news, and will operate as if it didn't exist until it's confirmed.
I agree that the PrC is a huge commitment without much of the reward, however a template can also be abused in some ways. However the template is likely the best option and the regulation of power will likely just fall on the DM.
So I am looking at:
Abilities Modiefies: +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con
Other Abilities: DR 2/-, Defensive Awareness (Dex), Endurance, and an upgrade of one step to hit die(Not retroactive)Is it to much, or not enough?
Actually, I think that's exactly what we did...
Sadly there are lots and lots of reasons why I can't pitch in to such an effort. But I am stoked the effort is begin made, and I watch with great enthusiasm!
Coincidentally, I just picked up the WoT book during Half Price Book's 20% off after-Xmas sale on Monday. If there was one thing I've always wanted to be able to pull off was to incorporate the weave channeling into Pathfinder so you can scale up or down the damage and/or effect area and also be able to continue to cast spells after using up your slots, but with the consequences akin to overchanneling with being a huge price to pay.
Hey.My friend just showed me this feed and before this post i could only glance at it but i don't think I noticed a post about ability increases by country origin. Because of the limited Ogier/Human starting race, there is little play difference between say a Tairen and an Aeil. I'm interested in working on a minor tweak of WoT to run as a pathfinder campaign. I'm likely only going to run one maybe two quests for WoT so i don't know that the full effort would be worth the time. However, in changing ability skills I had some ideas.
Aeil: +2 dex, +2 con, -2 cha. The dex for their style of fighting, the con for the full life training basically and the dealings with the Waste climate, and the cha for the very different society.
Borderlander: + 2 con, + 2 wis, -2 int? Not sure about the int but the wis from experience and the con from full life training.
Cairhenian: + 2 int, +2 cha, -2 str I don't know that there is really precedent for an increase in two mental attributes but the Caihenian people with Daes Dae'mar seem to warrant the new combination.
Midlander: +2 dex, + 2 wis, -2 cha From the description of Midlander in the book they seem to be referring to wanderers mostly, who come form small villages. The dex and wis would fit their need to survive on their own and the cha would fit the lack of interaction.
Some of the other ones, such as Illianer, Ebou Dari or Tairen didn't strike me as having specific traits and so could just be +2 any like a PF human.
Thoughts?
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a small kobold walks over the hill and coughs. looking down onto a small rise, he recognizes what he seeks.
murmering words of power, the air crackles with divine energy.
with a wave of his staff, he slams the butt home into the base of the grave.
the staff acts like a lightning rod, directing this energy into the grave...
arise, most powerful one! ARISE!
a small kobold walks over the hill and coughs. looking down onto a small rise, he recognizes what he seeks.
murmering words of power, the air crackles with divine energy.
with a wave of his staff, he slams the butt home into the base of the grave.
the staff acts like a lightning rod, directing this energy into the grave...
arise, most powerful one! ARISE!
I'm quite glad you cast resurrection on this thread. I liked the WoT game and would love to see it updated for PF.
Edit: And dotted so I can come back to contribute later.
glad to have you on board, solo.
right now i am working on gathering all the notes from this posting and will compile them into one gigantic posting...
Hey.My friend just showed me this feed and before this post i could only glance at it but i don't think I noticed a post about ability increases by country origin. Because of the limited Ogier/Human starting race, there is little play difference between say a Tairen and an Aeil. I'm interested in working on a minor tweak of WoT to run as a pathfinder campaign. I'm likely only going to run one maybe two quests for WoT so i don't know that the full effort would be worth the time. However, in changing ability skills I had some ideas.
Aeil: +2 dex, +2 con, -2 cha. The dex for their style of fighting, the con for the full life training basically and the dealings with the Waste climate, and the cha for the very different society.
Borderlander: + 2 con, + 2 wis, -2 int? Not sure about the int but the wis from experience and the con from full life training.
Cairhenian: + 2 int, +2 cha, -2 str I don't know that there is really precedent for an increase in two mental attributes but the Caihenian people with Daes Dae'mar seem to warrant the new combination.
Midlander: +2 dex, + 2 wis, -2 cha From the description of Midlander in the book they seem to be referring to wanderers mostly, who come form small villages. The dex and wis would fit their need to survive on their own and the cha would fit the lack of interaction.
Some of the other ones, such as Illianer, Ebou Dari or Tairen didn't strike me as having specific traits and so could just be +2 any like a PF human.
Thoughts?
i think this is a good starting point, and a valid point and observation. since there are only humans and ogier, i think it would be valid to apply regional modifiers for PCs.
For Tairens, id say +2int, +2 Cha, -2 wisdom, because they are very good at having self preservation and a strong sense of self, but not too wise when it comes to the outside world.
For Tairens, id say +2int, +2 Cha, -2 wisdom, because they are very good at having self preservation and a strong sense of self, but not too wise when it comes to the outside world.
I agree that we should consider regional modifiers but I think we should remember one of the points brought up in VoodooMike's post on building races. He pointed out that having a bonus in one mental stat and one physical stat is actually a point of balance, and it is not just any combo that adds up to +2. Also, if we really want some regional variation, maybe we should give optional racial traits in lieu of the additional feat and or skill points that humans normally get.