He keeps saying to ignore the summoner for some reason. We know he has no gear as his pet has used 30k of his 33k.Stuff about the eidolon taking on a fighter.I thought the goal was to see if the eidolon could take the fighter's place-->do its job better.
I still don't see the summoner side built. In case it was missed I don't see why anyone would not go after the summoner first so the summoner has to be accounted for.
My NPC's would rain death on the summoner with his pitiful AC, and by default the eidolon. He can ignore the summoner, but the enemies won't.
IIRC, the eidolon goes away if the summoner goes unconscoius, and he can't use the hit point transfer thing unless the summoner is about to die.
PS: Now he can come back and say the summoner has diehard, but I don't see a summoner built. Until I see both sides of the duo I can only assume the fighter is still better for the party. I don't think he would allow me to build a fighter half way to level 8 and assume it is better so what makes him think he can half build a summoner-eidolon and say "I am right."
PS2:This is more for Pinky than Shadow.
Stuff about the eidolon taking on a fighter.I thought the goal was to see if the eidolon could take the fighter's place-->do its job better.
I think the Eido CAN replace the 2 handed smashy dumb fighter very easily. But then again, so can a buffed druid pet. What it can't do is replace the versatility of a well built, well rounded Fighter, especially a switch hitter style. If I were a fighter, seeing this thing come down the pike, I'd hide and pick it off from range, since I ALWAYS carry a bow/crossbow. Maneuver it into tight spaces where it's reach isn't as much of a factor, attack it from above/below etc. And once I determined it was a Eidolon, whacking the Summoner would be job #1. Even if I can't kill him out right, the fewer HP he has, the less the Edio has, and he is FAR squishier.
I think the Eido CAN replace the 2 handed smashy dumb fighter very easily. But then again, so can a buffed druid pet.Stuff about the eidolon taking on a fighter.I thought the goal was to see if the eidolon could take the fighter's place-->do its job better.
I think a buffed fighter is better than a buffed druid pet, but I also beleive the fighter does more damage than is needed to be a threat. Expansion on the first though-->You could build a less damaging, but more versatile fighter, and do quite well.
This is one reason why I asked Pinky for criteria for "better" on the previous page. It gives us things to shoot for. It is hard to argue what is better when it has no agreed upon definition.
Not absolutely certain of this but I think a mounted fighter doing ride by's with a lance and lunge or a good polearm standstill build could easily kill the thing by preventing it from ever getting full attacks.
Not absolutely certain of this but I think a mounted fighter doing ride by's with a lance and lunge or a good polearm standstill build could easily kill the thing by preventing it from ever getting full attacks.
It has 15' reach. Large + Reach evolutions. IMO, best way to go is to get in close and kill the Summoner, or at least Sunder the backpack and get him out in the open.
Then have the rest of your party gank him. This IS a TEAM sport after all :)
He keeps saying to ignore the summoner for some reason. We know he has no gear as his pet has used 30k of his 33k.Stuff about the eidolon taking on a fighter.I thought the goal was to see if the eidolon could take the fighter's place-->do its job better.
I still don't see the summoner side built. In case it was missed I don't see why anyone would not go after the summoner first so the summoner has to be accounted for.My NPC's would rain death on the summoner with his pitiful AC, and by default the eidolon. He can ignore the summoner, but the enemies won't.
IIRC, the eidolon goes away if the summoner goes unconscoius, and he can't use the hit point transfer thing unless the summoner is about to die.
PS: Now he can come back and say the summoner has diehard, but I don't see a summoner built. Until I see both sides of the duo I can only assume the fighter is still better for the party. I don't think he would allow me to build a fighter half way to level 8 and assume it is better so what makes him think he can half build a summoner-eidolon and say "I am right."
PS2:This is more for Pinky than Shadow.
To be fair to PB, his build makes the assumption that the summoner hides in the backpack during all combat and tries to go unnoticed. It's a flawed assumption in many ways, but probably would work in some situations, largely those involving foes who are unfamiliar with the group, who have never encountered summoners before, or just aren't that bright. That's actually a surprising number of possible encounters. The problems will come when the encounters are with intelligent enemies who recognize the eidolon for what it is, quickly guess where the summoner is hiding and target him in his near defenseless state inside the backpack.
I also note that the Eidolon has an intelligence of 7, which ain't that bright. Good DMs should insist that it be roleplayed accurately. The summoner has cut himself off from the situation and can't give advice/guidance because he's cowering in the backpack trying not to be noticed. Essentially the eidolon is a fire and forget missile with a poor guidance system. No complex or intricate battle tactics for this brute. Of course, the same could be said for a min-maxed fighter with a 7 Int.
An interesting build, but not one that appeals to me in any way. If that's the lengths you have to go to to make the eidolon competitive with a fighter, then I'm not too worried about it replacing fighters any time soon.
To me the attraction of the class isn't in trying to replace the fighter, but in having a reasonably competent melee beast and a reasonably competent arcane caster at the same time, and developing the synergy between them, which would require balanced development of both.
Not absolutely certain of this but I think a mounted fighter doing ride by's with a lance and lunge or a good polearm standstill build could easily kill the thing by preventing it from ever getting full attacks.It has 15' reach. Large + Reach evolutions. IMO, best way to go is to get in close and kill the Summoner, or at least Sunder the backpack and get him out in the open.
Then have the rest of your party gank him. This IS a TEAM sport after all :)
Enlarged polearm fighter with lunge has 20' reach :)
Not absolutely certain of this but I think a mounted fighter doing ride by's with a lance and lunge or a good polearm standstill build could easily kill the thing by preventing it from ever getting full attacks.It has 15' reach. Large + Reach evolutions. IMO, best way to go is to get in close and kill the Summoner, or at least Sunder the backpack and get him out in the open.
Then have the rest of your party gank him. This IS a TEAM sport after all :)
I do not see any reach evolution in his write up. That and it would work on one attack. It does not give you reach to everything.
To be fair to PB, his build makes the assumption that the summoner hides in the backpack during all combat and tries to go unnoticed. It's a flawed assumption in many ways, but probably would work in some situations, largely those involving foes who are unfamiliar with the group, who have never encountered summoners before, or just aren't that bright. That's actually a surprising number of possible encounters. The problems will come when the encounters are with intelligent enemies who recognize the eidolon for what it is, quickly guess where the summoner is hiding and target him in his near defenseless state inside the backpack.
Is there an indefinite air supply in the backpack?
I also note that the Eidolon has an intelligence of 7, which ain't that bright. Good DMs should insist that it be roleplayed accurately. The summoner has cut himself off from the situation and can't give advice/guidance because he's cowering in the backpack trying not to be noticed. Essentially the eidolon is a fire and forget missile with a poor guidance system. No complex or intricate battle tactics for this brute. Of course, the same could be said for a min-maxed fighter with a 7 Int.
An interesting build, but not one that appeals to me in any way. If that's the lengths you have to go to to make the eidolon competitive with a fighter, then I'm not too worried about it replacing fighters any time soon.
To me the attraction of the class isn't in trying to replace the fighter, but in having a reasonably competent melee beast and a reasonably competent arcane caster at the same time, and developing the synergy between them, which would require balanced development of both.
Thanks for the explanation. I don't think the eidolon would do too well if that is his answer. The big glowing symbol pretty much gives it away in most DM's worlds. If hiding in a bag were a valid(good strategic) tactic then wizards and sorcerers would have been using it with fighters a long time ago.
Enlarged polearm fighter with lunge has 20' reach :)Not absolutely certain of this but I think a mounted fighter doing ride by's with a lance and lunge or a good polearm standstill build could easily kill the thing by preventing it from ever getting full attacks.It has 15' reach. Large + Reach evolutions. IMO, best way to go is to get in close and kill the Summoner, or at least Sunder the backpack and get him out in the open.
Then have the rest of your party gank him. This IS a TEAM sport after all :)
Actually, he has 25 ft when using lunge. The size increase doubles minimum and maximum threat ranges, and then lunge adds 5.
Thanks for the explanation. I don't think the eidolon would do too well if that is his answer. The big glowing symbol pretty much gives it away in most DM's worlds. If hiding in a bag were a valid(good strategic) tactic then wizards and sorcerers would have been using it with fighters a long time ago.
I saw players in a Living Greyhawk table I ran at I think Winter Fantasy one year doing this, incidentally. I think it was a fighter and a small cleric in the backpack, in that case but it's been a number of years.
Could someone explain this backpack thing to me, really?
Summoner rides in a backpack carried by the Eido-
A. Violates the "mount" evolution rulesB. Means Summoner shares the same space as the Eido, violating stacking rules
C. Summoner is all buttoned up, acting like a good little arcane battery, completely unable to give direction, or use new spells to help. No line of effect, so can;t even heal effectively.
It's a silly tactic, but it's the conceit PB wanted to run with.
Narf.
Sorry, had to.
You and some of the other builders are not using some important rules hereI use the bestiary rules which contradict the rules from the core rulebook ... and have the slight advantage of not being completely and utterly insane.
For what it's worth, from the FAQ :
I'll check that out (don't have the bestiary on me), but I'd say the handbook rules make a lot of sense as written and are decently balanced. If you get the advantage of a weapon you should play by the weapon rules and this is a PC we are talking about, at least in terms of balance.
I also would say Mr Backpack is really not using his character very well.
One of the key strengths of the summoner is you have pretty much two characters, each with a full set of actions. Minimizing one of your characters is silly because you deprive yourself of actions other characters don't get.
The summoner can use walls and pits to control the battlefield while the eidolon clobbers stuff or the eidolon can control combatants while the summoners applies damage spells (admittedly a limited selection of them).
Or the summoner can be built as a combatant as well and both can command flanking positions. One can set up a stun while the other delivers a coup-de-grace.
You can use readied actions on whomever is being targeted to avoid attacks (I ready an action to move behind the wall should he cast a spell or move next to me) while the other takes the offense.
So many possibilities...
Just give the eidolon the Ride evoloution (or else accept the penalties for being an inappropriate mount) and simply purchase an exotic military saddle.
You could readily describe it as being a pack-like holding device which still allows the summoner to direct, heal, cast spells, or get the hell out if things get bad.
Just give the eidolon the Ride evoloution
It doesn't qualify; the Mount evolution can only be applied to quadruped or serpentine base forms, while the example is a biped.
(or else accept the penalties for being an inappropriate mount)
Doesn't work. You have to have the Mount evolution to treat your Eidolon as a mount.
You have to have the Mount evolution to treat your Eidolon as a mount.
Poppycock. Any creature is potentially a mount.
The mount evolution specifically states "an eidolon is properly skilled and formed to serve as a combat-trained mount."
Therefore, an eidolon WITHOUT the mount evolution is NOT a properly skilled and formed to serve as a combat-trained mount.
Upon reading the rules for mounted combat and the ride skill, we find this:
"If you attempt to ride a creature that is ill suited as a mount, you take a –5 penalty on your Ride checks."
That is the only penalty for riding something, even an eidolon, that is ill suited as a mount.
Nowhere in the eidolon's description does it say it cannot be ridden (unlike its armor limitations which are specifically and clearly stated).
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I also would say Mr Backpack is really not using his character very well.I personally think the Summoner is an excellent defensive and offensive caster and it's the combination of a good caster AND a pet which is the most powerful melee force in the game which truly makes the summoner unbalanced (yes, the Druid with a big cat companion isn't much better ... but two wrongs don't make a right).
Always in these kind of discussions there's this pretense that somehow the summoner is a balancing factor because he can be taken out. Which is silly, the wizard can't cast spells any more when he is taken out either ... it's not relevant to the balance of the Eidolon.
So I'm just trying to avoid that discussion and focus solely on the Eidolon for a moment, failing spectacularly ... but trying nonetheless.
You can't separate the two, literally or figuratively.
The main weaknesses of the class comes from the division of resources between the two and inherent vulnerability of the Summoner, since it does only effectively get half resources and must always decide if it should buff itself or the pet.
In a backpack, good luck casting anything with somatic components. Good luck doing pretty much anything since you are in a bag, not a saddle.
And if you make it a saddle, your entire concept fails, as you would just target the rider.
The class was playtested like crazy. It isn't broken. It could be abused if the limitation rules aren't followed and enforced, because it is a very complicated class. But that is why it is in the Advanced book.
Most of this thread has been pointing out what rules your Eidelon as posted broke. As they have been getting corrected, everyone keeps pointing out the elephant in the room, or in this case the backpack.
Your completely unequipped Achilles heel, conveniently mounted on your back for easy targeting.
It's a silly tactic, but it's the conceit PB wanted to run with.For the people with a complete lack of imagination (you are stretching rules way beyond their intended purpose) I have enough money for a bag of holding. So make it a bag of holding inside a chest. The rules explicitly say they can contain creatures ... happy?
Bags of holding are extradimensional spaces. As soon as your Summoner entered it, the Eidolon would unsummon, as it is no longer within 1000 feet of the Summoner (or whatever the max range is, I forget).
The mount evolution specifically states "an eidolon is properly skilled and formed to serve as a combat-trained mount."
Therefore, an eidolon WITHOUT the mount evolution is NOT a properly skilled and formed to serve as a combat-trained mount.
Upon reading the rules for mounted combat and the ride skill, we find this:
"If you attempt to ride a creature that is ill suited as a mount, you take a –5 penalty on your Ride checks."
That is the only penalty for riding something, even an eidolon, that is ill suited as a mount.
You're missing some things. The most important is that non-combat-trained mounts require a ride check from the rider in order to act in combat.
Bags of holding are extradimensional spaces. As soon as your Summoner entered it, the Eidolon would unsummon, as it is no longer within 1000 feet of the Summoner (or whatever the max range is, I forget).It's a silly tactic, but it's the conceit PB wanted to run with.For the people with a complete lack of imagination (you are stretching rules way beyond their intended purpose) I have enough money for a bag of holding. So make it a bag of holding inside a chest. The rules explicitly say they can contain creatures ... happy?
As I am unfamiliar with most of the rules with Eidolons, I have kept quiet about the actual builds. But this one really stood out when I read it. Yep, you left the plane and Eidy is too far away.
Greg
Bags of holding are extradimensional spaces. As soon as your Summoner entered it, the Eidolon would unsummon, as it is no longer within 1000 feet of the Summoner (or whatever the max range is, I forget).
Actually, that's completely wrong. It's a non-dimensional space, which is completely different. All that means is that the inside is bigger than the outside. There is nothing stating that it isn't otherwise in the same place or not on the same plane.
This is a common mistake I see a lot of GMs make. If I'm in my bag of holding, and I can see out of the opening, there is absolutely nothing keeping me from dimension dooring out of the bag. I'm not crossing any planar boundries in doing so. A bag of holding or similar non-dimensional device, is not another plane. It's simply a magical bag.
You're missing some things. The most important is that non-combat-trained mounts require a ride check from the rider in order to act in combat.
You sure? Unlike animals, eidolons are intelligent and don't typically freak out during combat. The rule you refer to is for non-sentient creatures who freak out when threatened.
Bags of holding are extradimensional spaces. As soon as your Summoner entered it, the Eidolon would unsummon, as it is no longer within 1000 feet of the Summoner (or whatever the max range is, I forget).Actually, that's completely wrong. It's a non-dimensional space, which is completely different. All that means is that the inside is bigger than the outside. There is nothing stating that it isn't otherwise in the same place or not on the same plane.
This is a common mistake I see a lot of GMs make. If I'm in my bag of holding, and I can see out of the opening, there is absolutely nothing keeping me from dimension dooring out of the bag. I'm not crossing any planar boundries in doing so. A bag of holding or similar non-dimensional device, is not another plane. It's simply a magical bag.
Irrelevant. The summoner goes in the bag of holding. At most, 10 minutes later, he dies. As he can't breath (read up on living creatures in a bag of holding, which a haversack acts as). Additionally, the summoner couldn't cast any spells, or communicate with the eidelon to direct him in combat.
Bags of holding are extradimensional spaces. As soon as your Summoner entered it, the Eidolon would unsummon, as it is no longer within 1000 feet of the Summoner (or whatever the max range is, I forget).Extradimensional ie. there is separation along an "extra dimension". These things aren't pocket planes, they keep you on the same plane of existence.
Not how I read it, but that is neither here nor there concerning this thread. You could easily have some sort of masterwork armored 'thingie' strapped to your Eidolon's back.
Greg
Irrelevant. The summoner goes in the bag of holding. At most, 10 minutes later, he dies. As he can't breath (read up on living creatures in a bag of holding, which a haversack acts as). Additionally, the summoner couldn't cast any spells, or communicate with the eidelon to direct him in combat.Bags of holding are extradimensional spaces. As soon as your Summoner entered it, the Eidolon would unsummon, as it is no longer within 1000 feet of the Summoner (or whatever the max range is, I forget).Actually, that's completely wrong. It's a non-dimensional space, which is completely different. All that means is that the inside is bigger than the outside. There is nothing stating that it isn't otherwise in the same place or not on the same plane.
This is a common mistake I see a lot of GMs make. If I'm in my bag of holding, and I can see out of the opening, there is absolutely nothing keeping me from dimension dooring out of the bag. I'm not crossing any planar boundries in doing so. A bag of holding or similar non-dimensional device, is not another plane. It's simply a magical bag.
Oh I never said that the OP's idea was a good or effective tactic, only that people commonly confuse extradimensional spaces with nondimensional spaces.
Bags of holding are extradimensional spaces. As soon as your Summoner entered it, the Eidolon would unsummon, as it is no longer within 1000 feet of the Summoner (or whatever the max range is, I forget).Extradimensional ie. there is separation along an "extra dimension". These things aren't pocket planes, they keep you on the same plane of existence.
That's not what the prefix means. Extra, when used as a prefix, means outside of.
For example :
Extraatmospheric (outside Earth's atmosphere).
Extrasolar (Outside the solar system).
Extraordinary (Outside the ordinary).
Extracellular (Outside the cell, used in biology).
So, extradimensional means 'outside the dimension', which means 'not on this plane of existance' which means 'More than 1000 feet'.
SO yes, the Summoner being in an extradimensional pocket is both (A) suffocating and (B) too far from his Eidelon to keep it around.
Oh I never said it was a good or effective tactic, only that people commonly confuse extradimensional with nondimensional.
Actually, no, they don't. Extradimensional (as I posted above) means 'outside this dimension' or 'outside space-time' or 'outside reality'. Nondimensional would be non-existant because it has no length, width, or depth.
Oh I never said it was a good or effective tactic, only that people commonly confuse extradimensional with nondimensional.Actually, no, they don't. Extradimensional (as I posted above) means 'outside this dimension' or 'outside space-time' or 'outside reality'. Nondimensional would be non-existant because it has no length, width, or depth.
MDT- the prd refers to it as a nondimensional space, I take that to mean that the plane it creates has no true lxwxh..but it does have maximum cubic capacity. Ain't magic grand. But this is a threadjack issue... please lets gloss by this.
Pretty please?
Greg
Oh I never said it was a good or effective tactic, only that people commonly confuse extradimensional with nondimensional.Actually, no, they don't. Extradimensional (as I posted above) means 'outside this dimension' or 'outside space-time' or 'outside reality'. Nondimensional would be non-existant because it has no length, width, or depth.MDT- the prd refers to it as a nondimensional space, I take that to mean that the plane it creates has no true lxwxh..but it does have maximum cubic capacity. Ain't magic grand. But this is a threadjack issue... please lets gloss by this.
Pretty please?
Greg
Sure, I was not aware it said non-dimensional. I thought the argument was that it said extradimensional and that extradimensional didn't mean outside of reality (based off RD's post above).
I don't really bother with the specifics of the item descriptions unless something comes up in my games. Since nobody in any of my games would try something so suicidal as intentionally being pushed into a bag of holding alive, it's never come up. :)
@MDT-Thanks Neighbor!
Greg
Actually, that's completely wrong. It's a non-dimensional space, which is completely different. All that means is that the inside is bigger than the outside. There is nothing stating that it isn't otherwise in the same place or not on the same plane.
This is a common mistake I see a lot of GMs make. If I'm in my bag of holding, and I can see out of the opening, there is absolutely nothing keeping me from dimension dooring out of the bag. I'm not crossing any planar boundries in doing so. A bag of holding or similar non-dimensional device, is not another plane. It's simply a magical bag.
Amusingly, the phrase nondimensional actually is in the description of the bag of holding. Along with the little tidbit about:
If a bag of holding is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag immediately ruptures and is ruined, and all contents are lost forever.
One arrow to the bag/handy haversack -- which, presuming it's made of leather, has a hardness of 2 and at most 1 hp -- and the summoner's permanently removed from the game, followed immediately by the now-defunct eidolon. As a DM, I'd laugh myself silly pulling that trick on the PC who wanted to bring in such a ridiculous concept.
Extradimensional Spaces:
A number of spells and magic items utilize extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, a bag of holding, a handy haversack, and a portable hole. These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension. Such items do not function, however, inside another extradimensional space. If placed inside such a space, they cease to function until removed from the extradimensional space. For example, if a bag of holding is brought into a rope trick, the contents of the bag of holding become inaccessible until the bag of holding is taken outside the rope trick. The only exception to this is when a bag of holding and a portable hole interact, forming a rift to the Astral Plane, as noted in their descriptions.
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SO yes, the Summoner being in an extradimensional pocket is both (A) suffocating and (B) too far from his Eidelon to keep it around.
So ignoring the pointless discussion about silly tactics what does this say about the create pit spells and summoners?
"You create a 10-foot-by-10-foot extradimensional hole with a depth of 10 feet per two caster levels (maximum 30 feet). "
So if the summoner gets dropped into a "create pit" spell does the eidolon go away? Seems like a nasty way to defuse a summoner in a hurry.
On those he is not cut off. He is still there as there is no top. In a bag your closed off. The pit just makes a topless box. Now if it had a lid or cut you off making it imposable to see into or out of then yes it would cut him off.
You can't suffocate in a pit, you can always climb out or have folks look down at you. Not so with the bags.
SO yes, the Summoner being in an extradimensional pocket is both (A) suffocating and (B) too far from his Eidelon to keep it around.So ignoring the pointless discussion about silly tactics what does this say about the create pit spells and summoners?
"You create a 10-foot-by-10-foot extradimensional hole with a depth of 10 feet per two caster levels (maximum 30 feet). "
So if the summoner gets dropped into a "create pit" spell does the eidolon go away? Seems like a nasty way to defuse a summoner in a hurry.
Hmmm, interesting, hadn't realized that two places in the book describe bags of holding using two different terms.
As to the 'create pit', I would as a GM rule that if he is no longer on this plane, then he is too far from the eidelon and it goes 'bamph'. Same as if he stepped through a gate into a different plane.
SO yes, the Summoner being in an extradimensional pocket is both (A) suffocating and (B) too far from his Eidelon to keep it around.So ignoring the pointless discussion about silly tactics what does this say about the create pit spells and summoners?
"You create a 10-foot-by-10-foot extradimensional hole with a depth of 10 feet per two caster levels (maximum 30 feet). "
So if the summoner gets dropped into a "create pit" spell does the eidolon go away? Seems like a nasty way to defuse a summoner in a hurry.
Hmmm, interesting, hadn't realized that two places in the book describe bags of holding using two different terms.
As to the 'create pit', I would as a GM rule that if he is no longer on this plane, then he is too far from the eidelon and it goes 'bamph'. Same as if he stepped through a gate into a different plane.
I think non-dimensional is a typo since it was never defined in any 3.5 or 3.0 book. I also don't remember it being used anywhere else. Extradimensional is used a few times, and defined in one of the planar books.
Whats funny is I have a friend in my group that constantly does horrible at reading what classes do, how the classes do things, and many other details for many classes, but when he made a summoner. Not a single mistake.
I really wonder if people are just incompetent.
Whats funny is I have a friend in my group that constantly does horrible at reading what classes do, how the classes do things, and many other details for many classes, but when he made a summoner. Not a single mistake.
I really wonder if people are just incompetent.
Many of us that know the rules kind of gloss over things. The problem with the summoner is that it has so many exceptions to the rules that if you don't read every line it will be done incorrectly. Many of the people making the mistakes seem to be newer players also.
He may have also rolled a nat 20 on his character creation that time. :)
Or gone with a simple build. Most of the issues crop up most often not when you start at level 1, but when you make say a level 8 summoner.
Always easier to learn a class when you start at the beginning.
Non-dimensional is not a typo. It's a term from the old 2nd edition days (and maybe even older than that). It being a non-dimensional space is precisely why it isn't compatible with a portable hole (an extra-dimensional space). You can't have an "outside space" in a "non-space" (or vice versa) it's just not physically possible.
All it means is that the space is bigger on the inside than the inside (or as someone else put it, it's a non-space--which is probably why you lose everything should it get destroyed).
In any case, it's not on another plane or dimension so it doesn't interact with the eidolon or anything else any more than a normal bag would (except where specifically noted).
Non-dimensional is not a typo. It's a term from the old 2nd edition days (and maybe even older than that). It being a non-dimensional space is precisely why it isn't compatible with a portable hole (an extra-dimensional space). You can't have an "outside space" in a "non-space" (or vice versa) it's just not physically possible.
All it means is that the space is bigger on the inside than the inside (or as someone else put it, it's a non-space--which is probably why you lose everything should it get destroyed).
In any case, it's not on another plane or dimension so it doesn't interact with the eidolon or anything else any more than a normal bag would (except where specifically noted).
It was never defined in 3rd or pathfinder. It seems that someone who was used to second edition made a mistake that never got corrected. If it appeared more than once then it might at least have precedence to stand on.
According to my last quote that bag is extradimensional. It also fits the rule of extradimensional objects not "getting along". If nondimensional was an intended term then why is it affected by extradimensional affects?A portable hole is a circle of cloth spun from the webs of a phase spider interwoven with strands of ether and beams of starlight, resulting in a portable extradimensional space. When opened fully, a portable hole is 6 feet in diameter, but it can be folded up to be as small as a pocket handkerchief. When spread upon any surface, it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being. This hole can be picked up from inside or out by simply taking hold of the edges of the cloth and folding it up. Either way, the entrance disappears, but anything inside the hole remains, traveling with the item.
The only air in the hole is that which enters when the hole is opened. It contains enough air to supply one Medium creature or two Small creatures for 10 minutes. The cloth does not accumulate weight even if its hole is filled. Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space.
It seems the most similar object works by extradimensional space, yet uses the word nondimensional. They both also only hold 10 minutes of air. It seems they are both just different version of the same object. The main difference is that the portable hole never gains weight.
Non-dimensional is not a typo. It's a term from the old 2nd edition days (and maybe even older than that). It being a non-dimensional space is precisely why it isn't compatible with a portable hole (an extra-dimensional space). You can't have an "outside space" in a "non-space" (or vice versa) it's just not physically possible.
All it means is that the space is bigger on the inside than the inside (or as someone else put it, it's a non-space--which is probably why you lose everything should it get destroyed).
In any case, it's not on another plane or dimension so it doesn't interact with the eidolon or anything else any more than a normal bag would (except where specifically noted).
It was never defined in 3rd or pathfinder. It seems that someone who was used to second edition made a mistake that never got corrected. If it appeared more than once then it might at least have precedence to stand on.
According to my last quote that bag is extradimensional. It also fits the rule of extradimensional objects not "getting along". If nondimensional was an intended term then why is it affected by extradimensional affects?...A portable hole is a circle of cloth spun from the webs of a phase spider interwoven with strands of ether and beams of starlight, resulting in a portable extradimensional space. When opened fully, a portable hole is 6 feet in diameter, but it can be folded up to be as small as a pocket handkerchief. When spread upon any surface, it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being. This hole can be picked up from inside or out by simply taking hold of the edges of the cloth and folding it up. Either way, the entrance disappears, but anything inside the hole remains, traveling with the item.
The only air in the hole is that which enters when the hole is opened. It contains enough air to supply one Medium creature or two Small creatures for 10 minutes. The cloth does not accumulate weight even if its hole is filled. Each
Interesting. Both in Pathfinder and in v3.5 the portable hole uses both terms in reference to itself. Perhaps I may be mistaken. Something for the devs I suppose.
As to the 'create pit', I would as a GM rule that if he is no longer on this plane, then he is too far from the eidelon and it goes 'bamph'. Same as if he stepped through a gate into a different plane.Can you cast spells from outside the pit into it and vice versa?
If so I don't see how we are arguing that the distance is exceeded as you're saying that there is line of effect and a distance for the spell to be cast as such.
-James
As far as I know, the rules are silent on whether you can cast spells into or out of the hole. However, think of it more as the TARDIS. You could cast a fireball out of the Tardis cockpit, through the door, and into the real world. And vice versa.
However, if you had a radio tracking chip on your body when you stepped into the TARDIS, that tracking chip would disappear, because it's no longer on earth. If it worked by broadcasting a signal instead of the standard type that responds to a broadcast signal, then you might pick it up just outside the TARDIS, but it would be a weak signal.
At that point, the GM has to make a decision on whether it's strong enough to keep the Eidelon around. I suppose it could easily be ruled that the eidelon is treated as one distance category farther away due to the hole (category being when they go to 1/2 or 1/4 hp). It just all depends on how the GM wants to call it, since there is nothing in the rules to cover it.
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Always in these kind of discussions there's this pretense that somehow the summoner is a balancing factor because he can be taken out. Which is silly, the wizard can't cast spells any more when he is taken out either ... it's not relevant to the balance of the Eidolon.
- You can't compare the defenses of a wizard or any class to a full dps optimized summoner since they will not have 1 single magic item (all go to the eidolon) and are by far the weakest defensive class in the game. Also they must stay within 100 feet and need to be right next to the front line (shield ally ability) - which radically increases their vulnerability - to get a tiny defensive boost.
- Then you assume 3 active combat buffs which take several rounds to cast.
- Then you assume a first round full attack which happens <5% of the time. This is a MASSIVE dps loss (relative to the fighter/barbarian) on the first round.
- Then you isolate haste for the Eidolon but don't count it on the hasted fighter in the party for comparison (since you are 'ignoring the summoner').
- Then you ignore the pathetic HP of the Eidolon. I am level 5 and in the 19 PFS scenarios I've lost my eidolon in about 6 of them (and was far less effective after) yet I've NEVER seen a fighter/barbarian die - did you factor that in?
- Then you ignore that the Eidolon has a much lower +attack than a fighter or barbarian, so it is much better vs minions than bosses or high AC NPCs.
- All the meanwhile everyone here posts broken builds.
I have to call BS since every class is OP when you ignore almost all of their weaknesses and overvalue many of their strengths. I will not argue that the summoner is in the top 5 powerful classes, but I don't see how they are clearly better than say a druid.