Hi there!
I have a couple of questions concerning swarms. I checked the Bestiary and a couple of threads here but I still don't get clear answers to them so I thought I'd just post a thread here, sorry if I overlooked anything.
Swarms move into their victims square and then get to deal damage automatically. What can a PC do if they start their turn with the swarm in their square?
How do you handle attempts to shake them off?
Do such attempts always fail because there are too many creatures in a swarm?
Can magic weapons harm fine or diminuitive creatures in a swarm?
Hope you'll be able to shed some light on this for me, thanks in advance.
I'd like to add a few questions to that:
If you start your turn in the same square as a swarm and move out of that square, do some of the swarm creatures (presumably crawling all over you) ride with you to your destination square? How does this affect their ability to attack? What kind of action (full, standard, etc) would be required to "shake them off?"
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
|
Hi there!
I have a couple of questions concerning swarms. I checked the Bestiary and a couple of threads here but I still don't get clear answers to them so I thought I'd just post a thread here, sorry if I overlooked anything.Swarms move into their victims square and then get to deal damage automatically. What can a PC do if they start their turn with the swarm in their square?
How do you handle attempts to shake them off?
Do such attempts always fail because there are too many creatures in a swarm?
Can magic weapons harm fine or diminuitive creatures in a swarm?Hope you'll be able to shed some light on this for me, thanks in advance.
I'll take a stab at it for you:
What can a PC do if they start their turn with the swarm in their square? Anything they could normally do, but some tasks may require a concentration check to perform. I would strongly advise moving out of the swarm's space, though - unless the PC really wants to keep taking damage each round...
How do you handle attempts to shake them off? They don't work. There's just too many swarming creatures for this tactic to work. The PC needs to move away from the swarm or damage it in some way. Shaking it off is not a valid tactic.
Do such attempts always fail because there are too many creatures in a swarm? Yes. Imagine being attacked by a swarm of bees that emerges from a hive. How effective would standing there trying to shake them off work for you? Not very well. It would be better to run for shelter or, preferably, into a pond/lake/pool. This is also good advice in-game.
Can magic weapons harm fine or diminuitive creatures in a swarm? No. Swarms are immune to all weapon damage. You'll need some kind of area of effect spell or utility spell to deal with a swarm.
Hope this helps!
|
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
|
I'd like to add a few questions to that:
If you start your turn in the same square as a swarm and move out of that square, do some of the swarm creatures (presumably crawling all over you) ride with you to your destination square? How does this affect their ability to attack? What kind of action (full, standard, etc) would be required to "shake them off?"
Game rules indicate that Swarms are treated as a single creature for purposes of combat. Thus, if you leave their threatened area, you will no longer be affected by the swarm. In other words, no swarm creatures ride with you to your destination square.
You can't just "shake off" a Swarm. As long as you share the same space as the Swarm, you will continue to take damage from it.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
1) What can a PC do if they start their turn with the swarm in their square?
2) How do you handle attempts to shake them off?
3) Can magic weapons harm fine or diminuitive creatures in a swarm?
1) Make a distraction check or be nauseated (PHB condition)
2) You can shake them off if the PC both makes a distraction check and moves out of their space, otherwise the PC can't shake them off.3) I think Tiny is half weapon but D/Fine are no weapon damage. If that memory is correct, then magic weapons are still weapons so no damage.
I'd like to add a few questions to that:
If you start your turn in the same square as a swarm and move out of that square, do some of the swarm creatures (presumably crawling all over you) ride with you to your destination square? How does this affect their ability to attack? What kind of action (full, standard, etc) would be required to "shake them off?"
Game rules indicate that Swarms are treated as a single creature for purposes of combat. Thus, if you leave their threatened area, you will no longer be affected by the swarm. In other words, no swarm creatures ride with you to your destination square.
You can't just "shake off" a Swarm. As long as you share the same space as the Swarm, you will continue to take damage from it.
Using your swarm of bees example, I'm not sure how moving out of the square would help much either. I mean, I guess RAW it would work, but in reality they'd just move with you.
In the case of crawlers (say, a swarm of centipedes), moving wouldn't do much good either, in real life. Once they're on you, they're on you. Maybe roll a die to see how many stick to you, and treat those individually instead of as a swarm?
It's strictly a GM interpretation, but we always allowed weapons with energy damage (flaming, sonic, corrosive, frosted, sparking, etc) to be used against a swarm of any size creature, but only the energy damage portion worked. So a +1 frosted dagger and a +2 flaming falchion both did 1d6 of element damage to the swarm, but no weapon damage (assuming it was find/diminuitive).
|
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
|
I'd like to add a few questions to that:
If you start your turn in the same square as a swarm and move out of that square, do some of the swarm creatures (presumably crawling all over you) ride with you to your destination square? How does this affect their ability to attack? What kind of action (full, standard, etc) would be required to "shake them off?"
Game rules indicate that Swarms are treated as a single creature for purposes of combat. Thus, if you leave their threatened area, you will no longer be affected by the swarm. In other words, no swarm creatures ride with you to your destination square.
You can't just "shake off" a Swarm. As long as you share the same space as the Swarm, you will continue to take damage from it.
Using your swarm of bees example, I'm not sure how moving out of the square would help much either. I mean, I guess RAW it would work, but in reality they'd just move with you.
In the case of crawlers (say, a swarm of centipedes), moving wouldn't do much good either, in real life. Once they're on you, they're on you. Maybe roll a die to see how many stick to you, and treat those individually instead of as a swarm?
This is a situation where you can't confuse real life with game rules. Since the game treats the Swarm as a single creature, no Swarm particles stick with you. Even though this doesn't mesh with what may happen in a real life scenario, it is what happens in the game.
You could always house rule your suggestion for your campaign, though.
This is a situation where you can't confuse real life with game rules. Since the game treats the Swarm as a single creature, no Swarm particles stick with you. Even though this doesn't mesh with what may happen in a real life scenario, it is what happens in the game.You could always house rule your suggestion for your campaign, though.
Yeah, you're right. Good to keep boundaries between RAW and house rules clear. I was definitely thinking house rule with the "swarm particles" angle, as you put it.
Hope this helps!
Thank you very much, that was indeed most helpful. I also think that it's a little unrealistic that you can take a step to the side and are free of the swarm but I guess that's just a concession you have to make to keep the game mechanics working properly.
Thank you all for your help!
Swarms move into their victims square and then get to deal damage automatically. What can a PC do if they start their turn with the swarm in their square?
Reading over the description carefully:
1. If the PC failed their Fortitude save versus the distraction attack that would have occurred when the swarm entered the PC's square, they are nauseated at the moment until the Swarm's next turn, and therefore they can only make a move action. They may take this move action.
2. If the PC is not distracted/nauseated, they can do any normal full attack, or appropriate of normal standard and/or move actions, with the exceptions noted in 3 and 4 below.
3. If the PC wants to cast a spell while in a square occupied by the swarm, they will need to make the DC 20 Caster Level check, per the description of Swarm traits.
4. If the PC wants to make a skill check that requires concentration while in a square occupied by the swarm, they will need to make a DC 20 Will Save, per the description of Swarm traits.
Nothing else happens (the swarm does not do damage on the PC's turn because the swarm attack specifically does damage "to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move" (direct quote from the rules, emphasis mine).
How do you handle attempts to shake them off?
Mechanically, I would say this is taking a move action to move into a square not occupied by the swarm. As there are no rules that state that the swarm moves with the PC, there is nothing stopping the PC from moving away from the swarm.
Purely narratively, you can describe this as the PC batting away enough of the swarm to get to safety as the PC steps away from the bulk of the critters. Sure, there might be one or two critters on him descriptively speaking, but they are separate from the swarm at this point and essentially therefore inconsequential. (I think this addresses Lvl 12 Procrastinator's question too, where it has not already been addressed).
Can magic weapons harm fine or diminutive creatures in a swarm?
By themselves, no--immune to weapon damage is immune to ALL weapon damage.
However, as noted above, there is nothing that would stop a weapon that deals elemental damage from dealing that damage (for example, a flaming +1 longsword will not deal its usual 1d8+1 physical damage, but will deal its 1d6 fire damage).
Swarms are one of the reasons it's always a good idea to carry flasks of acid and/or alchemist's fire. :)
Nullpunkt,
It may help to think of the move action taken to move out of the square to include “shaking off” the clinging vermin. As the player has moved out of the main body of the swarm, there are no longer new vermin to replace them (which is why simply shaking them off doesn’t work while still sharing a square). The remaining handful of fine vermin aren’t really a threat until they rejoin the main body of the swarm.
I would argue that any player caught in a swarm would be shaking them off, dancing around, trying to protect their face, etc. by default. In fact, that’s part of what the distraction check embodies – if the player fails the check, they are so busy trying to knock the pesky critters loose that the character isn’t effective at anything else.
And to revisit the swarming bees example, remember that turns are a rules abstraction to simplify games management – technically everybody’s turn happens at the same time. So when you run from the bees on your turn, they can pursue you on their turn and re-surround you, until you reach a destination they cannot follow. It actually parallels the real world quite well – you’ll receive less stings in six seconds of running from bees than you would in six seconds of standing in one spot in the midst of an angry swarm – but ultimately you must either get far enough from the hive the bees cease to feel threatened, or find your way underwater, inside a building, or somewhere else the bulk of the swarm can’t follow.
Check the army ant's entry in the Bestiary, they have a special Cling ability. But I think they are also the only Fine swarm in the book, so it might be more of a Fine swarm thing than that specific type.
|
What happens to a swarm when they attack a spellcaster with Fire Shield up and running?
Would they have the instinctual reaction of leaving the spellcaster's square? Or would each individual creature in the swarm be hurt, but the swarm itself would continue to attack the spellcaster?
(Fire Shield seems like a great defense, but it's too high level to be generally useful. By that time the spellcaster has a bunch of other options.)
What happens to a swarm when they attack a spellcaster with Fire Shield up and running?
Would they have the instinctual reaction of leaving the spellcaster's square? Or would each individual creature in the swarm be hurt, but the swarm itself would continue to attack the spellcaster?
(Fire Shield seems like a great defense, but it's too high level to be generally useful. By that time the spellcaster has a bunch of other options.)
I've always based it off the motivation of the swarm. A summoned swarm would keep attacking and taking damage. A self-motivated swarm (you're in it's territory) would just not attack anyone in it's square that had the spell up.