Ooo, a nice update to distract me at work.
I like most of it. However, feedback:
I really don’t like the Knowledge/Spell Pool stuff: it turns the Magus into a pseudo-spontaneous caster. It starts off looking kinda like what a Wizard gets from his Arcane Bond (minus the rather large drawbacks of actually having one), but then at high level it gets so much better. If I ever run a game that goes up to 19th level, I would have to ban Greater Pool Spell. Not so much because it’s "too powerful" (it is a game-end ability) but because it’s setting-breaking and table-play-breaking.
To expound, briefly:
Why can't a Wizard do this? For the Magus to be able to one-up the Wizard in the Wizard's core shtick is too weird.
It also takes away some of the mystery and allure of arcane spells to have all of them at your fingertips at once. It erodes the line between them and divine spells. I want my spells mysterious, not cataloged.
Finally, it hurts the campaign world: if the GM was writing plots around various spells being hidden or only known by certain cults, etc, those plots are destroyed, or require weird house-rules about how "common" a spell must be before they are able to be used by this power. What if I run a setting where all high-level spells are uncommon? I feel like this breaks the guidelines being posted over on RPG Superstar, which I know isn't totally applicable here, but they're good guidelines.
In campaigns where spell-creation is the norm (which is bound to increase with the release of Words of Power), I could see this creating a few weird headaches. "So, in theory, someone, somewhere has probably invented a 5th level spell that involves doing X, Y and Z... since that would be so useful in situations like the one I find myself in now... so I Greater Spell Pool that."
Yes, you can drop the rules-hammer on such a player, but for homegames where this sort of thing really is normative, it would seem artificially limiting (especially since you can do it to Mage's X spells).
I can't help but imagine the game grinding to a halt here. You can't really "plan ahead" for using this power. If you could, you would have bought a scroll for it or found some other solution (you're 19th level afterall). I imagine this being used most in "oh s***" situations, (rather than ones where the PCs feel in control) which is where it is hardest for a GM to enforce timelimits on a character's actions. (Because then you run into the interpersonal stress of "the GM is trying to kill my character" that's not there for most rounds. Every GM I know removes their normally imposed timelimits when the party is about to die.)
This power gets even more difficult as new books are released and players will have to comb through more to find the effect they are looking for. I can see how this goes down: a player skims over the abbreviated spell descriptions at the beginning of the chapter looking for goodies to save his butt, then he flips to the actual description, finds out it's not what he hoped it would be (doesn't have the range, etc) and he goes back through the list. Rinse, repeat, halfhour passes while the rest of the party wrings their hands, hoping the Magus will bail them out.
Anyway, I doubt it will get terribly much use, since many games don't go to 19th level, but there is my extended feedback on that one line-item.
I also think the lesser versions of it are a bit "too good" compared to Arcane Bond, but not enough that I feel the need to bring out the ban-hammer.
At 19th level, why don't you just use the power to cast wish and be done with it?
Unless I'm misreading, Greater Spell Pool doesn't eliminate the limitation that the spell must be of a level that the Magus can cast.
What sixth level wizard spell is so game-breaking that cleric-level sponaneous access to it is more powerful than ninth level wizard spells?
Why can't a Wizard do this? For the Magus to be able to one-up the Wizard in the Wizard's core shtick is too weird.
The wizard isn't really the kind to do this sort of thing. The magus is more than just a wizard/fighter. He has some extra tricks up his sleeve. Plus, he's between those two classes already, so why not throw a bit of sorcerer methodology into the mix as well.
Plus, this uses up arcane pool points and especially if you use it for higher-level stuff, you go through your spell points pretty quickly. And spell levels 7 through 9 are still off limits.
It also takes away some of the mystery and allure of arcane spells to have all of them at your fingertips at once.
Again, it's not as if he can do this all day. Unless you blow it on low-level spells, you can do this two, maybe three times (and your arcane pool has run dry, or nearly so)
It erodes the line between them and divine spells.
It's not as if this is a hard rule. It's more a tendency. Spontaneous casters like sorcerers or oracles don't work that way, anyway.
And there are more things that make arcane spells different from divine spells (and almost all of them are just tendencies, too).
And when we move away from core Pathfinder, we find things like the war mage class, where you automatically know the whole spell list (which you can expand with class abilities) AND can cast spontaneously!
I want my spells mysterious, not cataloged.
Well, I fear you're totally in the wrong game, then. The spells are already catalogued. There's alphabetical spell lists and everything, and it's quite easy for spellcasters (especially the smart ones) to identify spells when they're cast or even when observing the effect (and this includes less obvious effects)
Finally, it hurts the campaign world: if the GM was writing plots around various spells being hidden or only known by certain cults, etc, those plots are destroyed, or require weird house-rules about how "common" a spell must be before they are able to be used by this power.
The GM must already make house rules concerning spell rarity and availability, because nothing in the rules as written would prevent a wizard or sorcerer from learning these spells - and if we're talking about divine spells, classes like cleric don't even need to do that, they can prepare them right away.
What if I run a setting where all high-level spells are uncommon?
Then you're already in deep house rule territory. What does "uncommon" mean, exactly? What does one have to do to be able to learn these spells? Is there a penalty to identify those spells? What about sorcerers and the like? What about clerics?
In campaigns where spell-creation is the norm (which is bound to increase with the release of Words of Power), I could see this creating a few weird headaches. "So, in theory, someone, somewhere has probably invented a 5th level spell that involves doing X, Y and Z... since that would be so useful in situations like the one I find myself in now... so I Greater Spell Pool that."
Yeah, that can be a problem, but this is a pretty specific thing. There are thousands, nay, millions of combinations of rules and specific "world parameters" that will cause problems. Does that mean there should never be new rules, or classes?
This is just an extension of the spell availability issue, really: In campaigns where spell-creation is the norm, what keeps sorcerers from doing exactly what you just described by learning one of those "potential spells" and then casting it all the time?
Actually, I think it's "GM using common sense". In such an instance, I'd say the spell must be known to you (not in the sense of "on the list of spells you know and can cast with your sorcerer slots", but in the sense of "have heard/read of that spell, can call it by name and make some check"
And we don't even know how exactly words of power will work, since we only have a preview of a beta version. Wait until they have thought about this and then told us in the book how magi and words of power work together (as far as I know there will be information about each Pathfinder spellcaster class and how they use these rules, including all the little quirks the classes have).
Table BreakingI can't help but imagine the game grinding to a halt here. You can't really "plan ahead" for using this power.
Well, life doesn't always wait patiently for you to plan ahead. It has this disturbing tendency to really surprise you all the time.
It's always nice to be able to react to this. "Have a plan or have a grave" is not really a good survival strategy.
I imagine this being used most in "oh s***" situations, (rather than ones where the PCs feel in control) which is where it is hardest for a GM to enforce timelimits on a character's actions. (Because then you run into the interpersonal stress of "the GM is trying to kill my character" that's not there for most rounds. Every GM I know removes their normally imposed timelimits when the party is about to die.)
The game doesn't have any time limits. GMs might enforce them for one reason or another, but the game cannot really plan ahead for everything, as I said already.
Plus, while I don't have time limits, I wouldn't stop enforcing them just because the players are in a tight spot. That would destroy the tension, and I guess that if I ever used time limits, it's to build a tension. So this seems counter-intuitive.
This power gets even more difficult as new books are released and players will have to comb through more to find the effect they are looking for. I can see how this goes down: a player skims over the abbreviated spell descriptions at the beginning of the chapter looking for goodies to save his butt, then he flips to the actual description, finds out it's not what he hoped it would be (doesn't have the range, etc) and he goes back through the list. Rinse, repeat, halfhour passes while the rest of the party wrings their hands, hoping the Magus will bail them out.
And what keeps a, say cleric from using the miracle spell and doing pretty much the same thing? Or a wizard with surplus money using wish? And those spells are core, have been in the game since 3.0 (though they have been changed a bit), and allow you to use virtually every spell out there (it's usually "8th-level or lower spells if they're on your list, 7th-level or lower spells from any list. In case of wizards, lower these numbers by one if the spell is from a banned school).
Since this means wildcarting 7th-level spells from any class list (as opposed to 6th-level spells from one class list), and 2 levels earlier than the greater pool ability (you get 9th-level spells at level 17 as cleric or wizard) - or even earlier if you use scrolls.... - the game is already in much bigger trouble, right? Especially considering that this has been around in 3e and 3.5e days, where there were things like the Spell Compendium and all that.
To sum it all up: Since this is a lesser version of a situation that can already occur (and earlier, which means it has a lot more potential of showing up, since most games end before 20-level, and I'd say the higher the level the more rarely is it ever reached), and which doesn't seem to have broken any tables, I just can't get excited about this or fear for my table, even though it's quite rickety...
I also think the lesser versions of it are a bit "too good" compared to Arcane Bond, but not enough that I feel the need to bring out the ban-hammer.
And meteor strike is a lot more powerful than hand of the acolyte. It isn't a problem because they're not meant to be on the same power level.
Same here. In the grand scheme of things, arcane bond is a minor thing for wizards and other classes that gain access. It's nice (the familiar can be useful, and so can the bonded item), but it doesn't figure largely into the wizard's overall power level.
The arcane pool, on the other hand, is THE class feature for magi other than spellcasting and spell combat. It has a noticeable impact on the magus's power level.
A sentence should be added to Greater Spell Pool that makes it clear that the Magus can't cast higher level wizard spells than he has Magus spells using this ability. As of now it's not there, and you have to refer back to Spell Pool and a line about adjusted spell level that actually concerns metamagic applications.
A sentence should be added to Greater Spell Pool that makes it clear that the Magus can't cast higher level wizard spells than he has Magus spells using this ability. As of now it's not there, and you have to refer back to Spell Pool and a line about adjusted spell level that actually concerns metamagic applications.
Good idea.
After all this ability isn´t actually more powerfull than limitet wish and this is a level 19 ability.
Hey, everyone,
I need some help understanding this one.
Pool Spell (Su) allows the Magus to cast any Magus spell that he knows... Which I'm reading as any magus spell in his spellbook.
Is Greater Pool Spell (Su) also limited in this fashion? I mean does he actually have to know the wizard spell in question (have it written in a spellbook (possibly from multiclassing into wizard)? Or, does Greater Pool Spell (Su) remove the requirement that the magus must "know" the spell and, at the same time, open up the options to the entire wizard spell list?
Also... If the magus doesn't need to "know" the wizard spell in question, it seems that 9th level wizard spells can be cast using the Greater Pool Spell (Su) ability.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Yes, the magus could cast a 9th level spell. However, at 9 points he is not likely to be able to cast much else, considering he will have at best 10+Int mod points to use.
They could have a bit more - I would expect some sort of Extra Arcane Pool feat, but overall, I agree.
Yes, the magus could cast a 9th level spell. However, at 9 points he is not likely to be able to cast much else, considering he will have at best 10+Int mod points to use.
He wont be casting much else from his arcane pool but as is alot of his abilities are not based on the pool at all, and the magic mod to the weapon costs 1 point.
A 9th spell once per day can be staggering, not to mention metamagic higher spells and the arcana that reduces the cost.
Could potentially become game breaking in my opinion.
Reduce the 9th to 4.5 which means 4. 10 + int mod of 6 they get 16. thats 4 9th level spells a day which ends up being how much a wizard has with no bonus spells.
and they get other stuff... seems horrible to me.
Reduce the 9th to 4.5 which means 4.
If it's not on the Magus's spell list, you don't get the halving effect. So you could do it once or maybe twice per day at most.
It's powerful for sure. But at 19th level, things are supposed to be powerful. My gripe is how it ruins campaign settings and causes logistical headaches.
Reduce the 9th to 4.5 which means 4.If it's not on the Magus's spell list, you don't get the halving effect. So you could do it once or maybe twice per day at most.
It's powerful for sure. But at 19th level, things are supposed to be powerful. My gripe is how it ruins campaign settings and causes logistical headaches.
Ah I see.
I still think its too much. even if its a 7th level spell, thats atleast 2.
twice a day you can cast insanity? and still do everything else you normally do with 2 points left over to boost your weapon to a +5 for two encounters, sounds awesome to me.
Research is 1000 gp per spell level, takes 1 week, and can (at GM discretion) require several Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcane checks. This allows a wizard to duplicate any spell on the list.
So are you going to stop my wizard from researching said setting breaking spell?
The major difference I see is the Magus gets away with doing this without making some kind of check... Although at 19th level the DC for formulas for Spellcraft likely make that a non-issue.
*edit*
Another point, does the Magus suffer ASF when he cast a wizard spell this way? It is not a Magus spell after all. That could shut up many on the fly uses fairly quick.
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A 9th spell once per day can be staggering, not to mention metamagic higher spells and the arcana that reduces the cost.
Could potentially become game breaking in my opinion.
What, like carrying a scroll of every 9th level spell available? Because that's all it is. And you only get to use one of the scrolls.
I have to say that I agree with the OP that those powers leave me cold.
Part of the fun of being a wizard style caster is the finding of new spells. Being able to blow arcane pool points on those spells instead sort of devalues that. I also feel that its not very fair to wizards, although they have a much better spell list to be sure. If a Magus doesn't have a spell handy for the situation, he still has a weapon and a damn fine chance of using it effectively. Spell pool and its related abilities seem to be a bit too much IMHO.
Otherwise the class is awesome.
@Erik Freund
I agree with your sentiment. I don't think the Magus needs more flexibility with spell selection than other casters.
I might be missing something, because I don't see what the big deal is.
As long as it's clarified that this ability only allows 6th- and lower-level spells, it's just a limited wish. I don't see how a magus getting a limited wish ability six levels after a wizard does is a problem.
That's because the magus class is not named "wizard".
It's really that simple. A class feature that emulates a spell (which is itself a class feature...or a fraction of one since casters get more than one spell per level to cast!) will make people go "wtf hax op". It's been like that ever since the birth of the third edition at the least.I mean, look at Tome of Battle. Nothing there beats a caster and people claim it's OP!
tl;dr: People are reactionary and use a narrow perspective to analyze new stuff.
I might be missing something, because I don't see what the big deal is.
As long as it's clarified that this ability only allows 6th- and lower-level spells, it's just a limited wish. I don't see how a magus getting a limited wish ability six levels after a wizard does is a problem.
That's because the magus class is not named "wizard".
It's really that simple. A class feature that emulates a spell (which is itself a class feature...or a fraction of one since casters get more than one spell per level to cast!) will make people go "wtf hax op". It's been like that ever since the birth of the third edition at the least.I mean, look at Tome of Battle. Nothing there beats a caster and people claim it's OP!
tl;dr: People are reactionary and use a narrow perspective to analyze new stuff.
Yeah, pretty much.
it's kinda insane. There's like a billion different "fighting man" classes to cover every single imaginable trope or style of character, but some people think the wizard class alone needs to have all of the magics. All of them.
Also worth noting wizard spells of 0-6 are also off limits if they're not on the magus list.[The wizard isn't really the kind to do this sort of thing. The magus is more than just a wizard/fighter. He has some extra tricks up his sleeve. Plus, he's between those two classes already, so why not throw a bit of sorcerer methodology into the mix as well.
Plus, this uses up arcane pool points and especially if you use it for higher-level stuff, you go through your spell points pretty quickly. And spell levels 7 through 9 are still off limits.
Oh no, they're totally within limits. Greater pool spell lets you cast wizard spells. They don't have to be on the list - they're just more expensive to cast when they're not.
My gripe is how it ruins campaign settings and causes logistical headaches.
Except that it doesn't even come near to ruining campaign settings. As I have proven, there are things in the game that are more powerful than this and available to the classes that get them sooner than level 19.
Miracle is a cleric 9 spell, which means clerics get to use it at level 17 and oracles at level 18 (if they choose the spell). An oracle that takes this spell at level 18 can use it at least three times! A 20th-level oracle could use it 6 times (or more, if the oracle in question is cute enough).
And miracle lets you use any cleric spell of 8th level or lower, or any spell at all of 7th level or lower. And as an added bonus, you get to ignore material components costing less than 100 gil and the DC is that of a 9th-level spell. And unlike sorcerers/wizards, they don't have to pay anything for this!
So how does greater pool spells ruin a campaign setting when miracle doesn't?
And the logistical headaches are no worse than a lot of other abilities out there. If you don't want to deal with stuff like that, stick to core. An open game like this will grow, and some combinations of abilities will be problematic. That's the way of the cookie crumbles.
I happen to like the idea. I do agree that Greater spell pool should be clarified regarding spells higher then he can cast, but its nice to see something, you know, different. New classes should have mechanics that are not exactly like those that exist. It would be silly if paizo just made a full base class out of the eldritch knight. This is something DIFFERENT, that this class can do. A barbarian's rage takes nothing away from a fighter, why should this take away from a wizard?
As for table breaking? Not any more then any other 19th level spellcaster with a wide selection of spells. There are a couple ways in pathfinder and 3.5 that allow a wizard to cast a spell spontaneously. By 19th level he almost certainly has most if not all of the useful spells the game world has to offer. So in terms of table play, however you handle when the wizard decides to break out his arcane bond spontaneous cast at 19th level, do that with greater spell pool.
I happen to like the idea. I do agree that Greater spell pool should be clarified regarding spells higher then he can cast, but its nice to see something, you know, different. New classes should have mechanics that are not exactly like those that exist. It would be silly if paizo just made a full base class out of the eldritch knight. This is something DIFFERENT, that this class can do. A barbarian's rage takes nothing away from a fighter, why should this take away from a wizard?
As for table breaking? Not any more then any other 19th level spellcaster with a wide selection of spells. There are a couple ways in pathfinder and 3.5 that allow a wizard to cast a spell spontaneously. By 19th level he almost certainly has most if not all of the useful spells the game world has to offer. So in terms of table play, however you handle when the wizard decides to break out his arcane bond spontaneous cast at 19th level, do that with greater spell pool.
I happen to like it too! I do think it needs clarification. When I first read it I assumed it was limited to spells of level 6 or below, but I can see how it reads otherwise. Clear that up for me, either way, and I'm fine with the nifty 19th level power.
Again, if this allows more than 6th level spells, it opens up the Magus to all item creation, as well as all of a wizards downtime shennanigans (bound outsiders anyone?)...
You know, I think I'm fine with that. Magus may have their own spell list, but they cast wizard magic, which, at least by the way I interpret the flavor of it, if you're intelligent enough to understand it, and experienced enough to decipher and apply it, then you can cast any spell ever scribed.
This ability is the limited way that magus put that into practice.
Personally I would rather see the Spell Pool, Knowlegde Pool and Greater Spell go bye bye and just give the Magus Full access to the Wizard spell list 1st-6th. The magus is full of clunky mechanics and anything we can do to trim it down and simplify it would be a welcomed change in my book.
I'm all for giving them access to the full wiz/sor spell list of levels 1-6, myself.
Some people brought up some really good points. The one that I want to respond to is the Miracle/Wish arguement. A few people have asked "how do you run that at your table?", so to answer:
I limit my players by what they are familiar with OOG: for Wizards, this means Limited Wish can only emulate spells in their spellbook and a select few others that that have prepped/read-up-on OOG. I simply don't let them cast stuff if they don't have written down somewhere what it does.
For Clerics, I rely heavily on the opening line of the spell: "You don't so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede." So when it later says "A miracle can do any of the following things" and lists spells to duplicate, I use that as a guideline for how much intervention/power their god can/wants to use to save the Cleric's butt. In other words: as DM, I choose the spell. I honestly don't consider this a houserule, but a valid interpretation of RAW.
Both of these policies stop the setting/table breaking stuff I brought up in the OP.
I can't really do this with a Magus. This power is about using spells that aren't in his spellbook. That's a lot of new material and game-information for a player to absorb. I can't expect that out of most of my players. Sure, as a DM, I need to know nearly every rule in the game. But I have high-level Sorcerers in my game that can't tell you anything about how Druid's Wildshape works. It's a huge extra burden to take on. And if it's not taken on, then the table grinds to a halt.
I recognize that some people will respond "well, you're so far into houserule territory that your opinion isn't even worth considering", but we all have little table-rules to speed up play and keep things in-line. I'm sure I'm not the only GM who has fought the "how do we speed up combat" battle at his table.
Personally I would rather see the Spell Pool, Knowlegde Pool and Greater Spell go bye bye and just give the Magus Full access to the Wizard spell list 1st-6th. The magus is full of clunky mechanics and anything we can do to trim it down and simplify it would be a welcomed change in my book.I'm all for giving them access to the full wiz/sor spell list of levels 1-6, myself.
Getting rid of spell pool, however, costs much more than just the spell list issues. The current iteration relies on the pool for all class features other than spell combat/strike. The localized micro-spontaneity and list customization are not unbalanced, and the concept fits well the magus "picks on whatever magic he can find" fluff on the class' description.
FWIW - I'm making the assumption that Wizard spells would be capped at 6th level, and that it's a syntax oversight that Jason will correct in the final version.
And again: I don't think this is too powerful. It's well-balanced! It fits in nicely with other classes & challenges from a purely gameist POV. My issues lie elsewhere.
Hey, everyone,
I need some help understanding this one.
Pool Spell (Su) allows the Magus to cast any Magus spell that he knows... Which I'm reading as any magus spell in his spellbook.
Is Greater Pool Spell (Su) also limited in this fashion? I mean does he actually have to know the wizard spell in question (have it written in a spellbook (possibly from multiclassing into wizard)? Or, does Greater Pool Spell (Su) remove the requirement that the magus must "know" the spell and, at the same time, open up the options to the entire wizard spell list?
I agree this could be clarified... But assuming the possibility it only works for wizard spells in his spellbook (which addresses most of the worry about the ability), that also has implications for the functioning of other abilities, namely Spell Blending.
Spell Blending states ´select one spell from the wizard spell list that is of a magus spell level he can cast. He adds this spell to his
spellbook and list of magus spells known.´ Now most people seemed to be interpreting that to mean the spell now counts as a ´magus spell´ since it is on his ´list of magus spells known´. Obviously, this is just playtest wording we´re dealing with, but what if Spell Blending DIDN´T make such spells count as magus spells, thus Pool Spell normally WOULDN´T work with such spells (until Greater Pool Spell is gained)? That would also mean one couldn´t use such spells with special abilities only using Magus spells, e.g. Spellstrike or any other special Magus-spell-only mechanics... Which would be another ´balance´ against allowing the Magus free access to Wizard spells.
I don´t really know or care exactly which intrepetation of the above would be ´officially´ directed by the current playtest RAW, but it seems like some intrepretations (even if they would need wording changes to be in effect) could establish an interesting balance point between all 3 of these abilities (Spell Blending, Spell Pool, Grt. Spell Pool).
Some people brought up some really good points. The one that I want to respond to is the Miracle/Wish arguement. A few people have asked "how do you run that at your table?", so to answer:
I limit my players by what they are familiar with OOG: for Wizards, this means Limited Wish can only emulate spells in their spellbook and a select few others that that have prepped/read-up-on OOG. I simply don't let them cast stuff if they don't have written down somewhere what it does.
For Clerics, I rely heavily on the opening line of the spell: "You don't so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede." So when it later says "A miracle can do any of the following things" and lists spells to duplicate, I use that as a guideline for how much intervention/power their god can/wants to use to save the Cleric's butt. In other words: as DM, I choose the spell. I honestly don't consider this a houserule, but a valid interpretation of RAW.
Both of these policies stop the setting/table breaking stuff I brought up in the OP.
I can't really do this with a Magus. This power is about using spells that aren't in his spellbook. That's a lot of new material and game-information for a player to absorb. I can't expect that out of most of my players. Sure, as a DM, I need to know nearly every rule in the game. But I have high-level Sorcerers in my game that can't tell you anything about how Druid's Wildshape works. It's a huge extra burden to take on. And if it's not taken on, then the table grinds to a halt.
I recognize that some people will respond "well, you're so far into houserule territory that your opinion isn't even worth considering", but we all have little table-rules to speed up play and keep things in-line. I'm sure I'm not the only GM who has fought the "how do we speed up combat" battle at his table.
So you are willing to houserule miracle and wish for the purpose of table speed and maitaining your prefered balance right? In fact limited wish is a fairly informal house rule if i am reading it right. Do the same thing with the magus ability. The player has to write down and familiarize himself with a few wizard spells his character doesnt know, he can only use those for the ability. I highly recommend using Perram's spell card generator. Give them a limit similar to what you do with limited wish and require them to have the spells printed and on hand (not in a book). The ability is about added versatility, not grinding your game to a hault. In this case you certainly can take the same steps you do for limited wish.
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Again, if this allows more than 6th level spells, it opens up the Magus to all item creation, as well as all of a wizards downtime shennanigans (bound outsiders anyone?)...
Unless you are talking about scrolls or staves, the magus is already able to create any kind of magic items. He just has a higher DC for missing requirements, but that's not much of a problem, especially for a high intelligence class like the magus.
I limit my players by what they are familiar with OOG: for Wizards, this means Limited Wish can only emulate spells in their spellbook and a select few others that that have prepped/read-up-on OOG. I simply don't let them cast stuff if they don't have written down somewhere what it does.For Clerics, I rely heavily on the opening line of the spell: "You don't so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede." So when it later says "A miracle can do any of the following things" and lists spells to duplicate, I use that as a guideline for how much intervention/power their god can/wants to use to save the Cleric's butt. In other words: as DM, I choose the spell. I honestly don't consider this a houserule, but a valid interpretation of RAW.
Both of these policies stop the setting/table breaking stuff I brought up in the OP.
You call them policies, we call them house rules. While you might be able to get a rickety argument with miracle, because of that miracles being requested line*, but wish doesn't have that at all, and you limiting players to a sub-list of spells is already a big cut into their variety (since they have no chance of having a lot of these spells in their spellbook, because they're not even on their list)
*While we're at it, here's my interpretation of miracle, and divine magic in general: All divine magic is "granted". Especially clerics always have to make sure that they're in line with their deities' philosophies lest they lose their divine powers. In the case of miracle, I consider the non-costly part to be something that does happen automatically, without the deity becoming more involved than usual. Only the big stuff will require a deeper involvement on the god's or goddess's part. Just like wish is assumed to always work with the basic stuff, but can have... side effects when you make more ambitious wishes.
I can't really do this with a Magus. This power is about using spells that aren't in his spellbook.
So are the other spells. They allow you more or less free access to all spell lists. Not just those spells on your spell list, or in your spellbook.
So you're houseruling wish, and miracle - what's to stop you from houseruling this on grounds that it's basically the same (only weaker)?
That's a lot of new material and game-information for a player to absorb. I can't expect that out of most of my players.
Then tell them they should keep away from the class. Amateurs should stick to amateur classes, anyway, unless they think they're up to the task of playing something more complex.
This is no more unsuited for beginners than, say, a druid who makes heavy use of wild shape and his animal companion, or a summoner (build your own monster? You could use that to make some people's heads explode!!)
I recognize that some people will respond "well, you're so far into houserule territory that your opinion isn't even worth considering", but we all have little table-rules to speed up play and keep things in-line. I'm sure I'm not the only GM who has fought the "how do we speed up combat" battle at his table.
Sure, but that's not the topic here. The topic here is that you think Greater Pool Spell shatters tables and rapes worlds. And that is simply not true, at least not any more than for some existing core material. In fact, it is decidedly less so, since that is core material (more chance of it being allowed and/or used) and available sooner, and allowing a lot more than this ability.
You said it yourself: Your opinion isn't even worth considering. I wouldn't have put it this harshly, but I'm quoting.
The thing is that you're comparing apples to oranges: RAW abilities with houseruled ones. You can't dismiss wish and miracle because you houseruled them and then say Greater Pool Spell is worse because you won't houserule that.
Either we're talking all raw (in which case your misgivings are ungrounded because there's more powerful stuff around which hasn't had the effect you fear this would have) or all house-ruled (in which case you will limit all the abilities that could cause what you're fearing, and there's no problem, either).