This may be my first post, or it may have been so long I can't recall when my first post was. Anyways I'm a big fan of low magic games. Not necessarily "less Casting Classes"- just I'm a big fan of the concept of Class Abilities should never be overshadowed by gear possession/usage.
I come from White-Wolf mostly (don't judge me!); and have a great deal of exp as an ST/GM there. As a player I've played mostly DnD 2e, 3.5 and recently; PF. I'm looking to design a setting with the idea in mind of removing this "gear creep/dependence".
Anyways, to the question at hand- Where do I even begin re-balancing the game towards the end of removing magic items (with the exception of perhaps unique artifacts/ect... no +1 swords) so that the power balance as it exists now can be kept?
I know this is a vague question; but to be quite honest I can see how heavily invested "magic gear" is in the system and its meta-balance. So the question is; where do I begin taking that apart without breaking it so completely it cannot be fixed or would result in being unplayable?
-Idle
So the question is; where do I begin taking that apart without breaking it so completely it cannot be fixed or would result in being unplayable?
Step one: remove all full casters (clerics, druids, wizards, sorcerers, oracles, etc.) completely from the game. All of them. Seriously. Because otherwise, after a few sessions, canny players will all play casters, with their effectiveness largely undiminished, and your game will turn into Ars Magica by default. Don't be that guy.
Second, remove all monsters above CR 10 or so, because their abilities will DESTROY people who can't fly, and penetrate DR/10, and so on. Instead, you'll end up using a lot of basic monsters with added size and/or HD and/or class levels only.
Third, you'll still need to provide a bunch of bonuses somehow, because they're hard-wired into the game.
I played a lot of White Wolf too, so no hate on that end.
Level cap (7-8max) would be the easiest. And even then there will be issues of disparity, lack of ways around DR, etc.
Also unless you outlaw item creation feats (or give no down time to make things) you will see a lot of magic item creep.
This games character options arent like White Wolf or some of Palladium's. They dont have the personal power built in the class gear matters, way more than a Klaive matters for an Ahroun for example.
Assuming you dont want to gut the game of casting classes or rework the CR system, what you are really worried about is the 'big six' magic items. Namely magic armor, magic weapons, stat boosters, cloak of resistance, amulate of natural armor and ring of protection. These items are needed more or less for the numbers to work out. Without them you cant go much past level 6 before your party falls way behind monsters of level appropriate CR.
a while back there was a whole thread loaded with ideas on how to replace these items with internalized abilities gained as you level (essentially making them universal class options). My favorite was heroic distinctions, which I use in my game, and it works pretty well. It can be found here. But there are lots of other good ideas in that thread as well.
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Honestly, my best advice (though, take it with a grain of salt) would be to provide the standard bonuses in a different way.
For example, instead of only offering a Ring of Protection +1 for 2000gp, also offer "Training in Attack Deflection" which would give the character a +1 Deflection bonus for 4000gp (2000x2 for slotless).
This gives the feel of characters being stronger on their own, while retaining the balance provided (and expected) by the magic items.
The best system I've seen so far for running a campaign that doesn't depend on magic items is 4th edition D&D. Pretty much everything you do gains a bonus of half your level.
Thanks for the replies guys. Can't seem to find the quote option on here; so I'll just half-ass it.
Kirth Gersen: "Step one: remove all full casters (clerics, druids, wizards, sorcerers, oracles, etc.) completely from the game. All of them. Seriously. Because otherwise, after a few sessions, canny players will all play casters, with their effectiveness largely undiminished, and your game will turn into Ars Magica by default. Don't be that guy."
Could you extrapolate onto why this is? Not that I don't believe you; I'm just looking for the specifics on why this is true (hopefully to give me a greater insight on how/why to modify).
Dragonsong:"Also unless you outlaw item creation feats (or give no down time to make things) you will see a lot of magic item creep."
This makes sense. Is there any precedent for having "improved quality normal items" take up some of the creep for magical items? Masterwork items, but a different scale in to take the place of some bonuses?
Kolokotroni: "Assuming you dont want to gut the game of casting classes or rework the CR system, what you are really worried about is the 'big six' magic items. Namely magic armor, magic weapons, stat boosters, cloak of resistance, amulate of natural armor and ring of protection. These items are needed more or less for the numbers to work out. Without them you cant go much past level 6 before your party falls way behind monsters of level appropriate CR."
Your assumptions are correct. This seems to imply that if I do no want to "surrogate" these crunchy +1's here and there; I would need to modify the monsters AND the full casting classes. The easiest solution is as you linked- the system which simulates items effects without the items themselves. It's certainly a viable solution; I sort of feel like that would feel kind of... cardboard though. Regardless, your commentary and link have helped highlight the more crunchy points of the issue.
Thank you for the responses so far, everyone. I get the feeling I'm sort of tackling a deep-seated aspect of the game and many have come before me in this same quest.
-Idle
Thanks for the replies guys. Can't seem to find the quote option on here; so I'll just half-ass it.
Dragonsong:"Also unless you outlaw item creation feats (or give no down time to make things) you will see a lot of magic item creep."
This makes sense. Is there any precedent for having "improved quality normal items" take up some of the creep for magical items? Masterwork items, but a different scale in to take the place of some bonuses?
Thank you for the responses so far, everyone. I get the feeling I'm sort of tackling a deep-seated aspect of the game and many have come before me in this same quest.
I have seen several people suggest a Staged Masterwork system on these boards. I haven't seen any real details about cost, time, special materials required, etc.(my personal favorite for any type of game: you want X of whoop-ass I need Y item from Z to make it, insta-quest; in the same vein as having to kill an ancient green dragon to get the 25k diamond for a true resurrection spell in a game I played in). For a GP sink I would suggest tripling the cost of the previous so 300, 900, 2700, 8100, 24300 perhaps more or the old stand by of it costs what you want it to cost.
There is a 3.0/5 3PP campaign setting called "Midnight". They toned back magic in general as well as magical items and gave advice on how to handle the current monster set without arch-magi running around blasting things to bits.
It is a complete re-write of how magic works- but its a good system. You can use their "campaign" or just ignore that and just use their rules. I'd highly recommend it for anyone trying to tone down magic and/or magical items in their campaigns.
-S
My first suggestion is to check out E6. Basically, max level is 6th level, and after that, you gain more feats instead of levels every few experience. Even at 6th level, magic items isn't that much of a must. And when you actually give them a magic item or two, make sure all magic items feel unique; a +1 sword is "meh" so make it an intelligent +1 sword that speaks, being a polymorphed werewolf, and that gains the keen ability whenever moonlight shines upon it. Or whatever. Make magic mystical.
If you do this, you don't need to limit casters that much because there's no large disconnect in their power level.
If you really want to play at higher levels though, and remove magic items without reaplacing with something else, casters will quickly dominate; they only need their spellbook or holy symbol, the rest of their equipment is just groovy. The fighter NEEDS that magic sword when you're up against an ancient dragon.
In that case, I propose using "virtual GP" for magic effects. Instead of getting a +3 sword, he gains an abiliy that causes all his melee attacks to get +3 to hit and damage (for example). Save the magic items for the really special abilities that can't be replaced in a logic sense, such as flying or teleportation.
This may be my first post, or it may have been so long I can't recall when my first post was. Anyways I'm a big fan of low magic games. Not necessarily "less Casting Classes"- just I'm a big fan of the concept of Class Abilities should never be overshadowed by gear possession/usage.
1) Remove any concept or expectation of "magic shops" from your game.
2) Skew treasure awards toward the gear-dependent characters like the melee classes, and don't be too generous. Don't feel that characters have to have standard WBL, and don't give away stuff with special abilities that overshadow the characters'.
3) If they decide to go crafting, let them. Crafting IS a class ability after all, so if they are making their own gear they are emphasising the crafter's contribution and abilities'.
I do not think you have remove all casters or any such from the game, just handle the loot as if it's valuable. A +4 sword is as good as a +1 keen wounding sword, especially when characters can gain the Improved Critical and Bleeding Critical feats/abilities.
I am currently running a Pathfinder game set in my own homebrew setting for a group of seven 5th level characters. I am normally rather stingy with magic items and even more so in this game. Instead of using the WBL chart characters receive a +1 inherent bonus to AC, attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, CMB, CMD for each four levels (i.e. +1 at 4th level, +2 at 8th level, +3 at 12th level, +4 at 16th level, +5 at 20th level). I am tempted to allow the same bonus to be added to any class feature that has an ability score modifier added to its DC (to compensate for not handing out ability score increasing items). I still allow minor magic items such as wands, potions, and scrolls, and I intend on giving characters special weapons such as a flaming sword which will do extra fire damage (but not have any +X bonuses attached to it). That way magic items can be special and truly magical, without becoming a necessity. Special materials work as per normal for overcoming DR. I haven't decided yet whether I should let the +1 bonus at 4th level count as overcoming DR X/magic or whether I should require actual magical weapons for that (such as the aforementioned flaming sword).
So far the system is working rather well and there haven't been any issues with encounters and such.
Kolokotroni: "Assuming you dont want to gut the game of casting classes or rework the CR system, what you are really worried about is the 'big six' magic items. Namely magic armor, magic weapons, stat boosters, cloak of resistance, amulate of natural armor and ring of protection. These items are needed more or less for the numbers to work out. Without them you cant go much past level 6 before your party falls way behind monsters of level appropriate CR."
Your assumptions are correct. This seems to imply that if I do no want to "surrogate" these crunchy +1's here and there; I would need to modify the monsters AND the full casting classes. The easiest solution is as you linked- the system which simulates items effects without the items themselves. It's certainly a viable solution; I sort of feel like that would feel kind of... cardboard though. Regardless, your commentary and link have helped highlight the more crunchy points of the issue.
I can understand how it can feel kind of iffy to simply simulate the important bonuses magic items give, but the question is, what to do next if you dont want to do that. Like i said, it is the big six magic items that represent pure power, and thus general game balance. Lets look at what removing each item means and possible more fluid ways to replace them.
1. Stat boosting items: This is a big one. This impacts just about everything, to hit, damage, AC, Saves, Spell DCs, special abilities, skills. But thankfully it is the easiest to replace fluidly. Increase the amount of stat boosting you get as you level. Instead of +1 every for levels, maybe +1 to 2 states every 3 levels (have to crunch the numbers on that one to determine specifics).
2. Magic weapons: This one is also very important to all those characters that use those sharp and pointy things. To hit, damage, and ability to bypass damage reduction are the big 3 i can think of here, and they are all important. You can further increase stat boosts to make up for to hit and damage, but DR remains a problem. You might want to consider allowing one or more of the special metals to bypass dr x/magic. So a silver/cold iron/adamantine sword counts as magical for the purpose of bypassing DR. But dont forget about alignment DR. Magic weapons was one of the main ways that kind of DR is bypassed for non-caster types. If these dont exist, enemies with alignment based DR will be tougher then normal.
3. Magic Armor: This one's the easiest, it impacts AC and defensive abilities. You could use the class based Def bonuses from unearthed arcana for this, or just have masterwork add to the AC bonus of armor/shields and give it an incremental bonus (+2 masterwork breastplate for example)
4. Cloak of resistance: This effects saves. Without it monsters with save based abilities or spells become considerably more dangerous. Players dont have a way to sure up weak saves, so a fighter basically gets to sit out when something breaks out the will saves.
5. Ring of protection and Amulet of Natural armor: More ac bonuses, however you handled Magic Armor, do more of that.
Not necessarily "less Casting Classes"- just I'm a big fan of the concept of Class Abilities should never be overshadowed by gear possession/usage.
-Idle
Yeah, what everyone else said... they're wrong.
All you need to make this work with no magic items is players who cooperate. If your PCs are selfish dicks who are all "me, I'm the best, f- the rest of the party" then I'm wrong and ignore me. And, admittedly, in many groups everyone is a dick. I've played in a few.
BUT... if you have a cooperative party (not a competetive party) then you don't need to do anything but make sure that the Casters take/prep Buff Spells.
Magic Weapon, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Shield of Faith, Resistance, Align Weapon, Protection from Evil, Barkskin, Stoneskin: these spells mean that you need no magic items at all, but only as long as the casters are willing to cast them. If they are, then your game will be fine, because the casters will buff the first round, the fighters will fight, and the second round the Wizards will blow crap up, the Clerics will heal, etc.
I've posted this before, and usually I get people going "but, that Greater Magic Weapon is one less fireball, whine whine whine." And what I say to that is - correct. It is. Deal with it. I've played a caster who both Buffed and Kicked Ass - you can do it too.
Also, in this sort of game, a buff Bard is the party's MVP. Not necessary, but those bonuses mean so much more. Actually, ANY class that provides party bonuses is more valuable - the Paladin's save bonuses vs Fear (and eventually Charm), the Cavilier's bonuses, certain Domains, Bloodlines, and Schools have similar as well.
Extend Spell becomes a VERY desirable metamagic feat, as it makes the buffs last longer (great for minute-per-levels). The same for that feat that makes bardic music last longer (lingering performance?) from APG.
If you also have rare, named magic items, then that makes it even easier. An artifact that does several things (a magic sword that also buffs Strength and protects the user from Fire) helps lighten the buff burden. Items that get better on their own (ala Legacy items from 3.5) are a good method as well, so long as you remove the "penalties" normally associted with them.
Another variant is to eliminate all perminant magic items, but allow scrolls, potions, wands, and staves. Anyone who takes UMD can use a wand or scroll, and anyone at all can drink potions. An oil of Greater Magic Weapon saves the caster a spell per day (or several) without making the items the focus.
As for reducing CR - don't. See what your party can handle. If a normal battle seems hard, then adjust the next encounter. Generally, while it's nice to have magic equipment, Pathfinder makes PCs tough - really tough - so you can do much nastier stuff to them now than you could in 3.5. I don't know why everyone thinks the party is going to roll over and die if they don't have some magic items. Do the Monster CRs assume you have items? Yes. Can you still defeat them without items? Hell yeah! So it takes two rounds instead of one. Big whoop.
And yes, generally the party needs more rest without magic items. A little. And the party soon learns to conserve resources.
That's the thing - the Party LEARNS and adjusts as much as the DM does. Having no magic items is scary, it makes things feel more dangerous. It isn't the deal breaker everyone thinks it is - but then, if someone is arguing that full casters should be banned because they're too powerful, then they clearly aren't used to cooperative play. So they're probably right about their game - but don't let them convince you that it won't work just because it doesn't work for their group. I wouldn't want to play in their group if the players won't cooperate enough to cast simple buff spells.
I've run these sorts of games, played in them... they work. Thru twenty-fifth level. Yes, through EPIC levels. No magic item game where the PCs killed most of the demon-lords. Good times.
So yeah... go for it and see what happens. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how well it works.
And everyone else - you can theorize and complain all you want. Nothing you can say will alter the fact that I've played in half-a-dozen games like this that worked fine. Maybe they wouldn't in your group, but cooperation is the ONLY thing necessary to make this work.
Here's some ideas (I wouldn't implement them all):
1) 25 point buy
2) Use the NPC Wealth by Level instead of the PC (note their CR is one lower so APL (Average Party Level) of 6 is equal to a CR 4 encounter)
3) Allow for item creation feats and give them time to craft. You could increase the cost for crafting items to be equal to the item itself.
4) Bonus feat at first level and every 5 levels. This will give everyone 5 extra feats over 20 levels.
5) Just level up their gear when they level. Stick with the WBL guidelines just improve the areas that you and they see need improvement. If the fighter is getting hit too often, then improve his armor. If the wizard is running out of spells, then his arcane bonded item becomes a ring of wizardy.
6) Every character starts with the Simple Advanced Template (or any other CR +1 template that you approve).
7) Use skills more often. Maybe increase the skill points each class has by 2. Maybe even give everyone the Cosmopolitan feat for free. This would allow them to get two extra class skills of their choice and a bonus language. Allow for the Heal skill to actually heal some hit points. You may have to play around with this to get the best value for your game. I would consider DC 15 to stop bleeding and for every 5 points over that you also heal an additional 1d4 points.
8) Increase the number of traits allowed to each character to 3 or even 4.
9) Allow attackers penetrate DR but limit it to 1/2 their BAB. So a 4th level fighter can ignore 2 points of DR.
10) Combine some feat trees into single feats. The two-weapon fighting tree would become a single feat that would allow for the extra attacks at the standard rate. You may have to play around with this if some feats branch out. Power Attack is a base feat for several feat trees.
Here's what I do:
1. Limit PC levels to 8. PCs can pick up extra feats after 8th level, but no further level advancement. This is basically E6 plus 2.
2. Implement of generous Action Point system. The chart at this link shows what my players get to do for an Action Point. This alone all but replaces the Big 6 Magic Items.
3. Change certain feats into virtual feats. I explain how I did this at this link.
4. Kill the idea that players are entitled to go shopping for magic items whenever they want and for whatever they can afford. In my current campaign, the PCs are pushing 4th level, and they haven't been able to buy anything magic except potions.
If you have a little extra money, pick up Trailblazer by Bad Axe Games. Pathfinder's spine isn't that different from 3.5's, and Trailblazer does a great job of showing that the Big 6 Magic Items aren't as necessary or as hard-wired into the system as many people assume.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
I just want to say thank you for all of the ideas presented in this thread; they run the gamut of approaches. For that I am very greatful.
I've looked around, grabbed Trailblazer, an old Monte Cook piece "Iron Heroes", thought about tinkering around with level limits.. all kinds of stuff. I'm having a good time doing the research actually.
Once again, thanks!
-Idle
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I know this is a vague question; but to be quite honest I can see how heavily invested "magic gear" is in the system and its meta-balance. So the question is; where do I begin taking that apart without breaking it so completely it cannot be fixed or would result in being unplayable?I designed and ran a lower-magic, grittier setting by reducing the number of magic items without reducing the benefits from them. My approach was to have fewer, but more powerful items. Sometimes a character would find an item, but more often they would slowly develop their existing gear as they level.
- Magic items are rare and almost never available for purchase.
- 25% of treasure is given to the party.
- 75% of treasure is recorded in a separate "magic fund" that can only be used for magic items.
- Remove the penalty for stacking abilities onto a single item. Instead, give a 10% discount for stacking abilities.
- Remove all magic item crafting rules for permanent magic items. (scrolls and potions remained unchanged)
- Whenever a character reaches a milestone or performs an impressive feat, they can spend their magic fund to enhance their gear.
- When you get rid of a magic item, you get the money back into your item fund.
The idea is, the axe of "Bart the Barbarian" didn't get enchanted by the party Wizard or bought in town. It's awesome because it was Bart The Barbarian's sword! "And ever since the day he defeated the Firedrake EvilMcKillVillager, the blade of his sword burned with flames as bright as day, that seared the flesh of his enemies!"
Each of my party members ended up with 1-4 items that were icons of their character. For example, the Sorcerer poured all of his fund into a staff. The Barbarian had a magic sword that gave him power in combat (typical magic weapon properties, but also strength and dex), and a dragon hide breastplate (we used Mithril stats) festooned with souvenirs torn from the bodies of monsters he'd slain (the breastplate had armor enhancements, but also Constitution, saving throw bonuses, etc.).
So, the balance of the game was unchanged, while the flavor changed from "Fill every slot with a trinket" to "Legendary heroes with iconic, legendary artifacts".
Sure, you can roll back all the magic items, but what exactly are you going to do with all the MONSTERS?
Drop the Campaign setting down to 10Th level Max. ((maybe even as low as 5th level)).
This help solve the problem of Special ability, monsters, etc.
Sure, you can roll back all the magic items, but what exactly are you going to do with all the MONSTERS?
Kill them and take their stuff.
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The big ones are the "standard set"... level-appropriate ring of protection, cloak of resistance, amulet of natural armor, magic weapon for melée, armor, and stat items.
For stats, give a +1 enhancement bonus to a physical stat at 2nd (their choice) and a mental stat at 3rd. Increase each every-other level, max +6 to any stat.
For weapons, give a +1 enchantment bonus for every 3 levels. Again, they can use spells to enhance, but they won't stack with named bonus.
Similarly give a +1 for every 3 levels to saves, and a +1 every level for AC. The latter would alternate between armor enhancement, natural, and deflection.
That will build in what they need; obviously wealth will need to be dropped, or useful stuff to buy should be eliminated (let them buy castles or whatever).
There's no reason you have to give out any magic at all. And the reality is, if you do, there's no reason it has to powerful or to be stuff the party can use.
1. I'm extremely stingy with magic items. There is no such thing as a "magic shop" in my world, though it's assumed that +1 or +2 items are available.
2. The campaign has a story arc with pressing timelines. Nobody's going to sit around burning XP and crafting items. They could, but they don't feel they have time - there's always a creature emerging from the sea or a missing giant king or something that they need to deal with NOW.
3. More powerful magic creation can be done "off stage", and requires existing magic items as fodder. Essentially, the king has something like Christine Schneider's arcane anvil in the basement.
4. Treasure I give out is often as valuable for the information as for what it is. Recently I gave out a set of mesmerist's gloves. They're a Magic Item Compendium item that is only worth about 8,000gp, but this particular set of gloves bore the insignia of a long-lost yuan-ti clan, and one of the characters is a yuan-ti, giving the gloves particular meaning. Jewelry often has hints and clues about what has happened or who was there.
As a result, the party has a tiny fraction of the magic a typical party their level might have, and they tend to hang onto a lot of the valuables they receive for informational and personal reasons.
Remember, the party wealth guidelines are just a guideline, and choosing not to follow them means that your creatures are all the tougher at a given CR.
Expect your meleers to get the every loving crap kicked out of them regularly and casters to be even more notably the strongest part of the party.
Don't mean to necro my own thread; but I'm reading over E6 and it seems like with tweaks and campaign specific adjustments; it's exactly what I'm looking for. I agree with it's premise entirely.
Is there a pathfinder mod for E6 anyone can point me to?
-Idle
Don't mean to necro my own thread; but I'm reading over E6 and it seems like with tweaks and campaign specific adjustments; it's exactly what I'm looking for. I agree with it's premise entirely.
Is there a pathfinder mod for E6 anyone can point me to?
-Idle
I don't know about E6, but Iron Heroes is a low/non magic game that uses many of the other 3.5 rules. There is supposed to be an updated version coming out next year, but progress look really slow with only one person working on it. The original version is not bad though.
I'm not sure what exactly what you want to go for with a low magic campaign, but all the ones that I've played in or run have usually had the aim of being pretty gritty. Just consider doing nothing. Go ahead and either award the PCs magic items appropriate to characters half their level, or give them the usual items but cut the number they find in half. In either case, don't adjust the monsters or pull your punches. I've played in games like this, and while they force you to be clever and you tend to have close calls more often, in the end a crafty party should be able to compensate either by planning on their head or using their skills creatively, and it tends to make for a memorable campaign.
I'm not sure what exactly what you want to go for with a low magic campaign, but all the ones that I've played in or run have usually had the aim of being pretty gritty. Just consider doing nothing. Go ahead and either award the PCs magic items appropriate to characters half their level, or give them the usual items but cut the number they find in half. In either case, don't adjust the monsters or pull your punches. I've played in games like this, and while they force you to be clever and you tend to have close calls more often, in the end a crafty party should be able to compensate either by planning on their head or using their skills creatively, and it tends to make for a memorable campaign.
+1
I'm not sure what exactly what you want to go for with a low magic campaign, but all the ones that I've played in or run have usually had the aim of being pretty gritty. Just consider doing nothing. Go ahead and either award the PCs magic items appropriate to characters half their level, or give them the usual items but cut the number they find in half. In either case, don't adjust the monsters or pull your punches. I've played in games like this, and while they force you to be clever and you tend to have close calls more often, in the end a crafty party should be able to compensate either by planning on their head or using their skills creatively, and it tends to make for a memorable campaign.While the above is good advice, I have to point out that doing so hampers the noncasters more than the casters. So it's advisable (not necessary of course) to nerf the fullcasters (wiz, cleric, druid, and to a lesser extent sorcerer) to some extent in an effort to mitigate the difference.
I can see your point. I'd be wary of nerfing them into the ground though. My solution would be to increase the casting time on spells at higher levels.
When you've got lower level PCs, the disparity isn't nearly so dire, so I'd leave them untouched for 1st-3rd level spells. For 4th-6th level spells, bump all standard action cast times up to full round actions. This requires a greater commitment to casting mid-power spells and limits the frequency with which you can cast them (it's not always tactically feasible). For 7th-9th level spells, bump those with standard action casting times up to 1 round (the spell completes at the beginning of your next turn). Now casting your most powerful spells has become risky, because if a foe strikes you before your next turn, you run a very real risk of loosing it.
Rather than adding lots of rules would giving most creatures spell resistance equal to cr +10 or so effectively nerf the casters without preventing them doing what they like to do?