|
Is it possible? I spent some time trying to get something like a Sorc/Fighter/Dragon Disciple, and conversly a Wizard/Fighter/Eldritch Knight, but it seems like you're sacrificing a lot by way of BAB. Is the slight versatility worth the drop? I know they're trying to make this more viable with the Magus class, but in terms of what's currently in place, has anyone ever had a decent build like this?
There is the Arcane Duelist archetype for the Bard class (APG). It gets to eventually cast in heavy armor and do some other really nice things, but you are still getting the Bard BAB and spell list. There are some really good Eldritch Knight ideas in this thread. Some of these EK builds look very effective. You are always going to be sacrificing something though.
Any experience with Dragon Disciple?
I have never played an EK or DD. I would like to at some point.
Some of these EK builds look very effective. You are always going to be sacrificing something though.Good point. Any experience with Dragon Disciple? Alot of HP's and Stat Boosts.
I've seen the Dragon Disciple used to the best effect with a Bard base. Since it's designed as a melee hybrid class, it works well with the Bard who can actually stand (uneasily) in melee range.
DD will combine well with any of the classes that can access it: sorcerer, bard, summoner. The thing about a dragon disciple is that if you take the prestige class, you are almost assuring yourself to be the group's striker.
AD Bard is a wonderful entering class for the DD, AD Bard 16/DD4 is a lovely build, 6th level bard spells and full plate armor is hard to say no to.
If you want a greater spell selection, and don't mind losing too much BAB, Barbarian 3/Sorcerer 2/Dragon Disciple 8/Eldritch Knight 7 is a lovely build that gets you up to 7th level spells, but you can't wear armor.
Eldritch Knights really only shine at archery. EKs don't belong in melee, as I discussed in one of the other EK threads that are on the first page here in the advice section. Although, you might be able to combine one nicely with the Abherrant Sorcerer Bloodline to deliver touch spells (I would wait for the increased spell list coming from Ultimate Magic before goofing around with that build)
By caster do you only mean the arcane casting.
I have played a DD, Sorc 5/DD X. It actually worked in melee very well with the condition that it's focus was on it's claws. I believe there is a feat to get additional uses of the claws, (though we just houseruled away the per day limit in the game). The character had strength as his primary stat, with charisma coming in second. With a relatively high point buy or a good roll, it can work pretty well. My absurd strength (17+2 natural, +1 at 4 8 and 12, and +4 item and +4 from dd for a total of 30) and a few good buffs (enlarge person, haste, heroism) more then made up for the loss of bab. I also had a pretty solit AC with all the natural armor i got from dragon bloodline and from DD (as well as a few protective spells).
When i could buff I was a beast in combat, if i couldnt buff i was more in line with a ranger not fighting their favored enemy, or a paladin who couldn't smite. In those cases i used non-save spells (since alot of my feats went into combat and my charisma wasnt maxed) to supplement allies (ray spells are always a good choice as you will likely have an above normal to hit for a caster).
If you cant extend uses of your claws you'll need to spend a feat or 1 level of some class to get a better weapon to focus on, but really the DD is at it's best when using claw claw bite behind a very high strength.
|
|
Thanks for the responses! ^_^
By caster do you only mean the arcane casting.
Yeah...unfortuanately for this setting that my DM is running Divine Magic doesn't exist. He's compensated this by adding an additional Restoration Arcane School that has curative spells in it.
Alot of good ideas in that thread above. The witch is intriguing but you sacrifice alot - HP's, BAB, and Armored Casting (Which you could negate with feats, but that's 2 feats out of the mix.)
I'm thinking what I'm going to end up doing is Fighter 2/Arcane Duelist 4/Dragon Disciple 4/Eldritch Knight 8. I miss out on the capstone, but I don't think we're going that high, and if we are I've been assured we'll be going epic so I'll get it eventually. Still up in the air though.
The barb concept is pretty cool too, but we already have a barb...granted that's not to say we can't have 2, but I'm one for diversifying.
We've been given a stat array of 19 17 14 13 11 9. I've arranged them thusly: STR[17] DEX[14] CON[11] INT[13] WIS[9] CHA[19]. We're starting at level 5 so I have a spare point but I'm debating between more melee damage vs higher spell DC's.
I'm doing Half-Elf with the Ancestral Arms racial option gaining the Bastard Sword proficiency for free. Placing my +2 in STR gives me a 19. (DM thinks curve blade is broken *shrug*). We start with enough GP for a +1 so base damage for me is 1d10+7 weilding 2-handed. Coupled with Power Attack and Arcane Strike (Magical Knack giving me full caster level for now) that's a 1d10+15 damage. Not too shabby. Then we throw in bardsong and well...you get the idea.
I'm still wrestling myself despite this, though, because Bards don't really have too many offensive spells....but Sorc would strip me of armor and lower BAB...
Thoughts?
... the DD is at it's best when using claw claw bite behind a very high strength.
This is true at the lower levels, but it breaks down at higher levels / if you don't have your claws for enough rounds. Even with a Charisma of 18, you can only "hulk out" for 7 rounds. That really isn't enough in an average aventuring day, especially when baddies have more hit points.
At higher levels, you will need a two-handed weapon to continue as your party's striker.
Hasted Claws DD gets two claws (normal str bonus) and one bite (1.5 strength bonus) at +BAB/+BAB/+BAB
Hasted 2h-weapon DD gets iterative + hasted attacks all at (1.5 strength bonus), they therefore do more damage with each hit and have attacks of +BAB/+BAB/+(BAB-5)/+(BAB-10). In addition, the weapon will do more damage than your claws will/hold more enchantments (even when they do energy damage, you could have bonuses on your weapon that exceed what you can put on your claws).
IMHO the claws are a excellent back-up, but should not be the primary focus of the character for melee output.
... the DD is at it's best when using claw claw bite behind a very high strength.This is true at the lower levels, but it breaks down at higher levels / if you don't have your claws for enough rounds. Even with a Charisma of 18, you can only "hulk out" for 7 rounds. That really isn't enough in an average aventuring day, especially when baddies have more hit points.
At higher levels, you will need a two-handed weapon to continue as your party's striker.
Hasted Claws DD gets two claws (normal str bonus) and one bite (1.5 strength bonus) at +BAB/+BAB/+BAB
Hasted 2h-weapon DD gets iterative + hasted attacks all at (1.5 strength bonus), they therefore do more damage with each hit and have attacks of +BAB/+BAB/+(BAB-5)/+(BAB-10). In addition, the weapon will do more damage than your claws will/hold more enchantments (even when they do energy damage, you could have bonuses on your weapon that exceed what you can put on your claws).
IMHO the claws are a excellent back-up, but should not be the primary focus of the character for melee output.
I think the claws would be the best option if (like i mentioned) you can provide additional uses for them via house rules or feats. My group house ruled the claws back to the way they were in the beta on the general principal that the other first level abilities are things casters do normally (touch attacks, saves etc), where as a melee attack requires abnormal investment for a caster to be of any value at all, so at my table the bloodline claws are unlimited uses per day. But you could also use a feat like 'Extra Claw attacks' to increase the number per day and thus make it a worthwhile focus. But that is up to you and your dm.
Thanks for the responses! ^_^
By caster do you only mean the arcane casting.Yeah...unfortuanately for this setting that my DM is running Divine Magic doesn't exist. He's compensated this by adding an additional Restoration Arcane School that has curative spells in it.
Alot of good ideas in that thread above. The witch is intriguing but you sacrifice alot - HP's, BAB, and Armored Casting (Which you could negate with feats, but that's 2 feats out of the mix.)
I'm thinking what I'm going to end up doing is Fighter 2/Arcane Duelist 4/Dragon Disciple 4/Eldritch Knight 8. I miss out on the capstone, but I don't think we're going that high, and if we are I've been assured we'll be going epic so I'll get it eventually. Still up in the air though.
The barb concept is pretty cool too, but we already have a barb...granted that's not to say we can't have 2, but I'm one for diversifying.
We've been given a stat array of 19 17 14 13 11 9. I've arranged them thusly: STR[17] DEX[14] CON[11] INT[13] WIS[9] CHA[19]. We're starting at level 5 so I have a spare point but I'm debating between more melee damage vs higher spell DC's.
I'm doing Half-Elf with the Ancestral Arms racial option gaining the Bastard Sword proficiency for free. Placing my +2 in STR gives me a 19. (DM thinks curve blade is broken *shrug*). We start with enough GP for a +1 so base damage for me is 1d10+7 weilding 2-handed. Coupled with Power Attack and Arcane Strike (Magical Knack giving me full caster level for now) that's a 1d10+15 damage. Not too shabby. Then we throw in bardsong and well...you get the idea.
I'm still wrestling myself despite this, though, because Bards don't really have too many offensive spells....but Sorc would strip me of armor and lower BAB...
Thoughts?
Sorry about the quadruple post...my computer went haywire.
1. What is your party make-up already?
2. Other than cast spells what do you want to do?
3. What kind of spells do you want to cast?
4. Which party role are you interested in filling with this character? [Tank, Striker, Controller, Buff/Debuffer]
Answering these questions will help you create the "gish" you are looking for, rather than splitting hairs.
PS - 4 levels of AD Bard is a waste of the class. If you are going AD Bard, minimum level investment is 10, good investment 12, with optimal level investment 16.
|
|
Yeah, I can definately see the appeal of the natural attack focus. Technically you could raise the damage on it, even more than it increases naturally, by sinking a feat into Improved Natural Attack.
Conceptually I'm not really fond of the bestial attacks vs a sword, per se. I'm sure it's mechanically awesome, but I'm stubborn when it comes to a character visualization...even though it gets me into trouble somtimes with underpowered builds... :P
|
|
Sorry about the quadruple post...my computer went haywire.1. What is your party make-up already?
2. Other than cast spells what do you want to do?
3. What kind of spells do you want to...
No worries. I lol'd.
Answer the first:
Thus far we have a two-handed weapon Barb, a standard ranger, I believe with archery though his mind changes every 6 seconds or so, and no decision from the fourth player, though he detests arcanery so I'm unfortunately filling that role.
Answer the Second:
Ideally I'd like to do a kind of spell-sword. Do decent damage in melee while being able to cast spells since we don't have an arcanist. I would LIKE to do something similar to a Magus without being able to use that class cause DM won't allow playtest.
Answer the third:
What I'd LIKE to have access to is offensive spells, not really being a buffer. I went bard because of the BAB tbh, and arcane strike and combat casting for free.
I hope I'm not being too difficult. I know it sounds like I want the best of everything...I just really wish he'd allow Magus.
Edit: I guess it'd be closer to say that my concept reminds me of a warlock but not broken :P
Ok...your team is really hurting. 4 characters: 1 melee striker, 1 ranged striker, 1 undecided [not controller, buffer] and you [leaning towards striker] is going to make one heck of a "zerg" team. How do you solve problems? Zerg It!!
I am actually going to suggest something completely different. This will mesh well with the party, and potentially give you the "type" of character you are asking for, but with a completely different spin.
Have you thought of a Sandman Bard?
There are two ways to make this work...
1. Sandman Bard 20. A solid class, don't have a spell that you see someone else using...steal it and use it as your own! You also get some sneak attack bonus and some other goodies. Add that sneak attack bonus to a scorpion whip (1d6 lethal, otherwise a normal whip) and you can do some decent damage without being in the middle of the fray.
2. Sandman Bard 10/Arcane Trickster 10. More sneak attack damage, a little less on the stealing of other people's spells, this class rocks some very handy perks that can allow you to stay in the combat zone without getting your behind handed to you.
3. Sandman Bard 7/Master Spy 1/Arcane Trickster 10. A faster way to gain access to the Arcane Trickster perks, this build gives you a couple extra levels to take other classes to suite your needs.
why suggest Bard?
1) Who else is going to be the face of the party? The battle-scarred barbarian or the "death from a distance" ranger? You will be able to fill that role nicely.
2) You can be the knowledge base of the party. Again, a role no one else is going to fill.
3) This Bard build only requires good dex and cha, since the whip is weapon finesse-able. Which helps round out the character package nicely.
4) You can battlefield control and buff/debuff. If there is an enemy spell caster tearing into you with offensive spells...take them away from him, and then cast them right back at him.
I don't think your crew needs another striker, but if you can fill the other roles that are missing, your character will most likely become the "leader" since you are the one that talks to everybody and knows the answers....just remember that when they ask you to devy up the loot ;)
|
|
I was going through that other thread above again, and noticed something weird.
"When you hit EK levels, you'll thank me for picking Witch, since you've chosen either Strength patron(for Divine Power, Righteous Might, Greater Magic Weapon and Giant Form) or Wisdom patron(for Shield of Faith, Magic Vestment, Globe of Invulnerability) and shine in melee. Drop the armor, use a reach weapon and change to Stilled spells that imitate combat maneuvers(assuming the Witch gets any) when someone closes in or pick Transformation patron and maul everyone with beast/dragon/other shape spells and decent BAB."
This doesn't seem right to me...you won't get very many patron spells at all because the advancement in caster level only affects spells known and spells per day, not bonus spells. Or am I wrong about this?
I was going through that other thread above again, and noticed something weird.
"When you hit EK levels, you'll thank me for picking Witch, since you've chosen either Strength patron(for Divine Power, Righteous Might, Greater Magic Weapon and Giant Form) or Wisdom patron(for Shield of Faith, Magic Vestment, Globe of Invulnerability) and shine in melee. Drop the armor, use a reach weapon and change to Stilled spells that imitate combat maneuvers(assuming the Witch gets any) when someone closes in or pick Transformation patron and maul everyone with beast/dragon/other shape spells and decent BAB."
This doesn't seem right to me...you won't get very many patron spells at all because the advancement in caster level only affects spells known and spells per day, not bonus spells. Or am I wrong about this?
you are correct, I went through making a Witch/EK to see if it ended up Hexblade-y or not. It really landed flat on its ear. The Witch, like most of the base classes in APG, is specifically crafted with pathfinder's unspoken rule that base classes must be better than prestige classes. Once you start with Witch, you do not want to leave the class, as your losses will just get exponential worse than the gains you get for hybridizing/prestiging.
|
|
you are correct, I went through making a Witch/EK to see if it ended up Hexblade-y or not. It really landed flat on its ear. The Witch, like most of the base classes in APG, is specifically crafted with pathfinder's unspoken rule that base classes must be better than prestige classes. Once you start with Witch, you do not want to leave the class, as your losses will just get exponential worse than the gains you get for hybridizing/prestiging.
Seems to be that way. Although that build does indeed have a certain appeal. Throwing barbarian in there instead of fighter for the boost in HP's and rage (despite it's lack of longevity and such, more of a contingency) seemed to make it look pretty decent (not great but decent). Well, decent for this particular group. It appears that the fourth player is ALSO wanting to do a bow-wielder. So we only have one individual in melee. This is...problematic. The healing hexes and ability to do some decent offensive spells does give the witchy build some credibility in this situation. Though I may be better off going with the Sorc/RDD with the claw attacks. I found a character image that made me re-examine the concept. Mostly higher ac and stats for survivability in melee.
Someone in your group needs to provide some healing and control. It may be worthwhile to even go straight caster to help fill as many needs as possible in your parts. It doesn't really look like you'll need to do damage.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here's where I'm digging on the witch:
Str 13 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 18(16+2) Wis 11 Cha 7
Witch 5/ Fighter 1/ Eldritch knight 10/ fighter 1/ witch +1/ Diabloist 2 (in this order)
Patron: Strength
Hexes:
Flight
Tongues
Slumber
Healing
Feats:
1 Combat Casting
3 exotic weapon proficiency(aldori dueling sword)
5 still spell
f weapon focus(aldori dueling sword)
7 weapon finesse
ek arcane strike
9 weapon specialization(aldori dueling sword)
11 toughness
ek power attack
13 improved familiar (psuedodragon)
15 greater weapon focus (aldori dueling sword)
ek Boon Companion (familiar)
17 greater weapon specialization
f Aldori Dueling Master
19 Quicken Spell
Now what do you get out of this?
Well your casting is almost as good as a full caster (you do have 9th level spells) with +16 BAB. With the aldori sword (assuming you get a speed keen +5 when you can -- which you'll only buy as a +1 speed keen sword since you have greater magic weapon) you have 5 attacks, three of which are at your best bonus with an extra 1d4 damage per hit and +2 shield bonus if using the sword two handed.
The Imp companion has 15d8 hit dice and lots of spell like abilities.
So what feats does your Imp companion want? Mounted Combat, Ride by attack, Spirited charge, Light Armor, Shield proficiency, toughness, lunge, power attack.
Why? Because it's going to ride your familiar -- after you permanency enlarge person the familiar of course to get it to small size. That way it can charge in with the lance using lunge to get reach of 5 feet to hit hard (and yes it can still manage that).
You have heal to go with your full armor casting and divine favor -- which is fairly important since luck bonuses to hit and damage are rare for a caster.
All in all you end up being a cleric with nasty SoS effects (keep that Int up! Strength bonuses are easy to come by -- Int not so much!) and greater melee attacking potential (in addition to flight) with two companions to help out with items/ attacking (see mounted imp above).
What? No Noble Scion: Thrune for another imp familiar? If one imp is fun, two are hilarious.
And three just gets a groan from the GM... I do have a character I'm playing currently that's an arcane sorcerer with an imp familiar, Noble Scion and a level in Diabloist. The nice thing is having two familiars with fast healing -- perfect targets for unwilling shield spells.
Our last party had a Fighter1/Sorc4/DD5(STR & CHA), a Fighter1/Wiz5/EK4 DEX (elven curved blade) and INT) and a Druid 10 (Awakened Cheetah as a Cohort).
The party was extremely good at melee with both the EK and DD having solid ACs and relaible accuracy (and the DD's excellent damage per strike!). Our 'Casting' may have been sub-par, but we relied on buffs-Haste, Heroism, Blur... It worked for us :)
GNOME
|
How interested are you in a playtest class? The Magus sounds pretty much exactly what you're talking about. It's better in melee than a Bard, even the AD.
You'll suffer on spells known and per day, though. With no Divine magic, a full caster might have the kind of healing you guys will need.
PS Why no divine? Especially if you're just going to turn around a give the healing power to arcanists? What's the Ranger doing about his spells?
|
|
How interested are you in a playtest class? The Magus sounds pretty much exactly what you're talking about. It's better in melee than a Bard, even the AD.
You'll suffer on spells known and per day, though. With no Divine magic, a full caster might have the kind of healing you guys will need.
PS Why no divine? Especially if you're just going to turn around a give the healing power to arcanists? What's the Ranger doing about his spells?
I know...I really wanted to do Magus, but he's not allowing playtest. Had my character rolled up and everything and had to tank it.
No divine per the setting. I'm not sure what his mentality is on it. What little I've learned is that this world is created by gods that are now dead or something like that.
That's my major gripe: Rangers have no spellcasting ability and nothing to make up for it. He's basically stating that if you're going to go ranger, use a variant that forgos casting ability. The whole thing seems more than a little unfair, but he's the DM so I'll have to make it work.
What this also means is that the Paladin, Cleric, Oracle, and Druid classes are unrollable classes for this setting. Bummer since originally I wanted to do a Pally.
No divine per the setting. I'm not sure what his mentality is on it. What little I've learned is that this world is created by gods that are now dead or something like that.
It could be a Dragon Lance type setting. However, even in that story the main party of characters had a Cleric, the first to exist in a very long time. Campaigns like this can be very difficult to play in, if the GM hasn't put plenty of counters in place. If there are no healers, or limited healers, then the GM should probably play around with the HP recovery mechanic and increase the amount of HP a successful Heal check can restore.
That's my major gripe: Rangers have no spellcasting ability and nothing to make up for it. He's basically stating that if you're going to go ranger, use a variant that forgos casting ability. The whole thing seems more than a little unfair, but he's the DM so I'll have to make it work.
Well, for what it's worth, I don't care for the spell-less Ranger archetype in the APG. It gets a few nice tricks but it doesn't seem to me like they are getting enough back for the sacrifice of their spells. However, I have seen one spell-less Ranger variant that I liked a lot. They get a lot in return for sacrificing their magic ability. See if you can get your hands on Kobold #11 and check out the spell-less Ranger in there, it's a great option.
What this also means is that the Paladin, Cleric, Oracle, and Druid classes are unrollable classes for this setting. Bummer since originally I wanted to do a Pally.
Maybe you could talk your GM into an Arcane Paladin or Ranger. I think there was an Arcane Paladin variant in 3.5 but you would probably have to build a Ranger variant yourself. Actually I was hoping for something like that with the Magus. There is already an Arcane casting class that gets medium BAB and 6th level spells, the Bard. What doesn't exist is an arcane class that has full BAB, 4th level spells, and can cast in Medium Armor, an arcane compliment to the Ranger or Paladin.
One other thing I have seen on the forums to give the Bard a little more offensive punch is to roll all the old 3.5 Assassin spells into the Bard spell list. If that doesn't work, there is a feat in the APG that would be worth taking for a Bard. You convert spell slots, or spells memorized, into Ray attacks, 2d6 +1d6/level of the spell. If you used the Arcane Duelist or Sandman Bard and then took this feat you would have good melee ability, an array of buff/de-buff/healing/utility spells, and could convert those slots into ranged touch attack damage if you liked. That feat would be excellent for the Sandman too since he would be able to apply his Sneak Attack damage on top of the Ray damage. If you go Sandman you might want to get the other feat as well it allows you to convert spell slots into temporary AC bonuses. If you go Arcane Duelist that wouldn't matter since you will eventually be able to use heavy armor anyway.
Arcane Blast and Arcane Shield are the feats.
|
|
Interesting thought on the Arcane Blast. Damage for it would be meh at later levels, but from everything I've seen on the forums and an official post on the SRD from James Jacobs, bypasses SR and Resistances (sans magic immunity I believe). Like a beefed up magic missile.
As for the Arcane Pally, that'd be interesting. You'd almost have similar to what I'm going for. Sadly, though, he outright stated that these classes do not exist at all in the setting, which is another bummer. At any rate, there are still options out there, and you all have given me alot to mull over thus far.
CAN you apply sneak attack to spells? Even for ranged attacks, unless you have a one-up on them during the surprise round (or HIPS) that gets difficult, I'd imagine, unless I'm missing a rule somewhere.
A Sandman Arcane Trickster (he can qualify by himself at level 10) with arcane blast can be a lot of fun.
Spells to look into:
Vanish (1st level spell)
invisibility (2nd level spell)
Granted by itself arcane blast isn't so hot -- when you add in 5d6 sneak attack damage it's a bit better though.
If you go magician instead you can grab a level of rogue and a level of assassin to get into arcane trickster and use your bonus spells from the magician ability to grab some damage dealers.
Interesting thought on the Arcane Blast. Damage for it would be meh at later levels, but from everything I've seen on the forums and an official post on the SRD from James Jacobs, bypasses SR and Resistances (sans magic immunity I believe). Like a beefed up magic missile.
CAN you apply sneak attack to spells? Even for ranged attacks, unless you have a one-up on them during the surprise round (or HIPS) that gets difficult, I'd imagine, unless I'm missing a rule somewhere.
I didn't even realize the blast bypasses SR, that makes sense though and makes the feat most definitely worth it for Bards at least, especially the Sandman or an Arcane Trickster build. Yes, Sneak Attack can be applied to any spell you roll to attack with. But you do have to qualify for a Sneak Attack, it would be just like using Sneak Attack with a ranged weapon. Remember Bards get Invisibility and Greater Invisibility though; you can easily qualify for ranged Sneak Attack that way. Arcane Tricksters would be able to do this even more frequently with their class abilitie.
....
A Sandman Arcane Trickster (he can qualify by himself at level 10) with arcane blast can be a lot of fun.
Arcane Trickster is a good PrC, it gets a lot of really nice stuff. The only thing that I don't like about it, and I really don't like this, is that it gets a low BAB progression instead of a medium BAB progression. That really hurts, especially if you have already had to multi-class between two other low/medium classes to qualify. The Sandman approach is your best bet if you want to go into Arcane Trickster and still have a decent BAB because you aren't suffering from all that multi-classing but you will still only hit BAB 12. I think a straight Sandman or Arcane Duelist would be far more effective if you want to be effective at all in melee. You may also want to look into the Expanded Arcana feat in the APG. It will help make up for your limited spells known list.
If you go magician instead you can grab a level of rogue and a level of assassin to get into arcane trickster and use your bonus spells from the magician ability to grab some damage dealers.
The Magician is a nice archetype too, but probably not as good as Arcane Duelist or Sandman for your purposes. Also, you are really only going to gain three spells from other arcane spell lists in this type of progression (assuming: 8 bard/1 rogue/1 assassin/10 arcane trickster). The expanded repertoire spells would not be included in your arcane trickster spell progression. This also assumes the OP is allowed to play an Evil PC, otherwise the build would have to swap Assassin for Master Spy.
|
|
The Magician is a nice archetype too, but probably not as good as Arcane Duelist or Sandman for your purposes. Also, you are really only going to gain three spells from other arcane spell lists in this type of progression (assuming: 8 bard/1 rogue/1 assassin/10 arcane trickster). The expanded repertoire spells would not be included in your arcane trickster spell progression. This also assumes the OP is allowed to play an Evil PC, otherwise the build would have to swap Assassin for Master Spy.
So what would be the best way to make this build work? I'm intrigued :D
So what would be the best way to make this build work? I'm intrigued :D
See my post above from Wednesday LOL
The Magician is a nice archetype too, but probably not as good as Arcane Duelist or Sandman for your purposes. Also, you are really only going to gain three spells from other arcane spell lists in this type of progression (assuming: 8 bard/1 rogue/1 assassin/10 arcane trickster). The expanded repertoire spells would not be included in your arcane trickster spell progression. This also assumes the OP is allowed to play an Evil PC, otherwise the build would have to swap Assassin for Master Spy.So what would be the best way to make this build work? I'm intrigued :D
This build does work; it just has some issues, IMO. Ultimately it depends on what type of character you are envisioning and what roles you want to fill with this character. But if you want to use this build I would still recommend Sandman vs. Magician.
The Magician gets some nice things but the Sandman would be better, IMO, for this type of build. This build nets you 7d6 of Sneak Attack, the Magician gets two bonus arcane spells know of any list (I was mistaken earlier when I said three), and some very nice anti-caster abilities. However, if you go Sandman instead you will get 8d6 Sneak Attack and you will get to steal spells from other casters, which IMO, is a great anti-caster ability and better than having only two bonus spells known from other arcane spell lists. Keep in mind though, with this build your total BAB will be 11 and you won't get the medium and heavy armor casting like the Arcane Duelist, which means you will never be all that effective in melee. If you want to focus on ranged attacks from stealth/invisibility you can pump out some damage with 7d6 (8d6 if using Sandman) Sneak Attack. If you want to play a melee/caster you probably don't want this build.
Personally, while I like the Arcane Trickster class, I don't like it for anything involving melee due to its low BAB. With a ranged focus it can be a strong class, but you would have to do some serious work to be effective in melee with an Arcane Trickster. Even the 10 Sandman/10 Arcane Trickster build only has a 12 BAB. On the other hand if you go straight Arcane Duelist or Sandman you will get a 15 BAB. If you go Sandman you will only get 5d6 of Sneak Attack damage, and you won't get some of the nifty abilities that you would with Abraham's build, but you will be a little better suited for melee. You will also have the ability to steal spells and put your enemies into a slumber allowing you to CDG. If you go Arcane Duelist you will be able to wear and cast in heavy armor as well as having a better BAB, that is the best melee/caster build to work with IMO.
Haha, I know. I meant with Magician. Is that same build you suggested still viable if you swap out Sandman for Magician?So what would be the best way to make this build work? I'm intrigued :DSee my post above from Wednesday LOL
That depends on what you want it to be viable for, and what your definition of viable is. Sandman is a far better fit for that build IMO.
|
|
I'll probably go with the sandman/arcane trickster. That seems pretty fun to go with.
Delving less into actual intent and more into pure curiosity, is it too detrimental to BAB to make an Arcane Duelist/Arcane Trickster work? I mean you've got to dip into 3 levels of rogue somehwere, but your BAB progression would remain the same. I think it's more of your spell levels being tanked by 3 levels.
|
That's my major gripe: Rangers have no spellcasting ability and nothing to make up for it. He's basically stating that if you're going to go ranger, use a variant that forgos casting ability. The whole thing seems more than a little unfair, but he's the DM so I'll have to make it work.Well, for what it's worth, I don't care for the spell-less Ranger archetype in the APG. It gets a few nice tricks but it doesn't seem to me like they are getting enough back for the sacrifice of their spells. However, I have seen one spell-less Ranger variant that I liked a lot. They get a lot in return for sacrificing their magic ability. See if you can get your hands on Kobold #11 and check out the spell-less Ranger in there, it's a great option.
What this also means is that the Paladin, Cleric, Oracle, and Druid classes are unrollable classes for this setting. Bummer since originally I wanted to do a Pally.Maybe you could talk your GM into an Arcane Paladin or Ranger. I think there was an Arcane Paladin variant in 3.5 but you would probably have to build a Ranger variant yourself. Actually I was hoping for something like that with the Magus. There is already an Arcane casting class that gets medium BAB and 6th level spells, the Bard. What doesn't exist is an arcane class that has full BAB, 4th level spells, and can cast in Medium Armor, an arcane...
I was browsing this thread and saw this - I'm really glad you like the Spell-less Ranger!
Just as an FYI ... no details yet, but it sounds like we will be hearing more from the Spell-less Ranger sometime soon ;)
Oh, and regarding the arcane class that has full BAB, 4th level spells, and can cast in Medium Armor etc ... if all goes well, you may want to check out the Spring issue of Kobold Quarterly :)
I'll probably go with the sandman/arcane trickster. That seems pretty fun to go with.
Delving less into actual intent and more into pure curiosity, is it too detrimental to BAB to make an Arcane Duelist/Arcane Trickster work? I mean you've got to dip into 3 levels of rogue somehwere, but your BAB progression would remain the same. I think it's more of your spell levels being tanked by 3 levels.
Well, you would get a few nice abilities and bonus feats going 7 levels AD. However, you will not get the medium or heavy armor casting abilities. Medium kicks in at 10th level AD and heavy kicks in at 16th level AD. It wouldn't change your BAB though, (7 Bard/3 Rogue/10 Arcane Trickster) has the same BAB as (10 Bard/10 Arcane Trickster) either way you will have BAB 12. With three less caster levels you will still end up casting as a 17th level Bard, so you will get your 6th level spells. But if you are going to go AT I would suggest Sandman, it's the best match whether you go (10 Sandman/10 AT) or (7 Sandman/3 Rogue/10 AT) the Sandman is by far the best fit. Going (8 Bard/1 Rogue/1 Master Spy or Assassin/10 AT) just drops your BAB by 2 points without giving you much, if anything, to compensate.
Actually, (7 Sandman Bard/3 Poisoner Rogue/10 Arcane Trickster) might be a nice build. You will want to put some thought into increasing your bonuses to hit though, either high STR, using the longsword two-handed or high DEX, using a whip and rapier with Weapon Finesse.
I was browsing this thread and saw this - I'm really glad you like the Spell-less Ranger!
I loved it, if there wasn't already a Ranger in my group I would have talked to the GM about playing a Spell-less Ranger.
Just as an FYI ... no details yet, but it sounds like we will be hearing more from the Spell-less Ranger sometime soon ;)
Good stuff.
Oh, and regarding the arcane class that has full BAB, 4th level spells, and can cast in Medium Armor etc ... if all goes well, you may want to check out the Spring issue of Kobold Quarterly :)
I would love to see such a class.
|
|
I'll probably go with the sandman/arcane trickster. That seems pretty fun to go with.
Delving less into actual intent and more into pure curiosity, is it too detrimental to BAB to make an Arcane Duelist/Arcane Trickster work? I mean you've got to dip into 3 levels of rogue somehwere, but your BAB progression would remain the same. I think it's more of your spell levels being tanked by 3 levels.
Well, you would get a few nice abilities and bonus feats going 7 levels AD. However, you will not get the medium or heavy armor casting abilities. Medium kicks in at 10th level AD and heavy kicks in at 16th level AD. It wouldn't change your BAB though, (7 Bard/3 Rogue/10 Arcane Trickster) has the same BAB as (10 Bard/10 Arcane Trickster) either way you will have BAB 12. With three less caster levels you will still end up casting as a 17th level Bard, so you will get your 6th level spells. But if you are going to go AT I would suggest Sandman, it's the best match whether you go (10 Sandman/10 AT) or (7 Sandman/3 Rogue/10 AT) the Sandman is by far the best fit. Going (8 Bard/1 Rogue/1 Master Spy or Assassin/10 AT) just drops your BAB by 2 points without giving you much, if anything, to compensate.
Actually, (7 Sandman Bard/3 Poisoner Rogue/10 Arcane Trickster) might be a nice build. You will want to put some thought into increasing your bonuses to hit though, either high STR, using the longsword two-handed or high DEX, using a whip and rapier with Weapon Finesse.
Could you get away with dipping a feat into Med Armor Prof and the purchase of Mithral Breastplate?
Could you get away with dipping a feat into Med Armor Prof and the purchase of Mithral Breastplate?
Yes, Mithral Breasplate is treated like light armor, so any Bard should be able to cast in it even without the Arcane Duelist features.
|
|
I'm playing an elven fighter/transmuter/Eldritch Knight right now... I have to say you don't really lose a lot in the way of attack rolls... attack rolls.
At 20th level you are missing something of the level of 4-5 bab in wizard. That's it. And you MORE than make up for that with spells that give you bonuses to attack rolls.
Greater Magic Weapon
Heroism/Greater Heroism
Bulls Strength (Not useful at later levels... but when you first get it it is awesome)
Haste
There are many things that let you make up for the lost BaB. Not to mention you have SPELLS! Seriously good spells as EK loses only 2 levels of casting minimum. That is...well...simply put... 9th level spells with plenty of feats.
Scimitar + Improved Critical + spellstoring + Greater Magic Weapon + Arcane Strike + Power Attack (Iffy on this one) + EK10 Spell Critical = something is just plain up dead.
Scimitar + Improved Critical + spellstoring + Greater Magic Weapon + Arcane Strike + Power Attack (Iffy on this one) + EK10 Spell Critical = something is just plain up dead.
Unless it's a houserule, you don't get Arcane Strike and Spell Critical in the same round, as they both eat Swift actions.
Eradarus- I'd be interested to look at a character sheet for that if you happen to have one handy.
nice stuff
Remember that with touch attacks you don't need a great BAB, and since arcane strike is a standard action to use you aren't going to get more attacks.
I agree you won't get many spells out of the magician but it's when you get those spells that matters.
Consider: Bard 4/Rogue 1/ Assassin 1/ Arcane trickster 10/ Bard 4.
I get my second expanded spell list ability right when I hit sixth level spells -- which means as a sixth level spell I can grab summon monster 9 with it -- which is very nice.
However IF I was willing to give up another caster level I could instead do the following:
Bard 4/rogue 1/assassin1/arcane trickster 10/ bard 2/ pathfinder savant 2
Which would give me another spell off of someone's fifth level list -- lets say heal off of the adept's list for example.
How I have summon monster 9 and heal added to my list. My first level spell added would probably be chill touch so that I have a melee option for sneak attacking -- also since arcane blast isn't a spell I won't lose my chill touch while using it at range.
Remember that with touch attacks you don't need a great BAB, and since arcane strike is a standard action to use you aren't going to get more attacks.
I agree you won't get many spells out of the magician but it's when you get those spells that matters.
Consider: Bard 4/Rogue 1/ Assassin 1/ Arcane trickster 10/ Bard 4.
I get my second expanded spell list ability right when I hit sixth level spells -- which means as a sixth level spell I can grab summon monster 9 with it -- which is very nice.
However IF I was willing to give up another caster level I could instead do the following:
Bard 4/rogue 1/assassin1/arcane trickster 10/ bard 2/ pathfinder savant 2
Which would give me another spell off of someone's fifth level list -- lets say heal off of the adept's list for example.
How I have summon monster 9 and heal added to my list. My first level spell added would probably be chill touch so that I have a melee option for sneak attacking -- also since arcane blast isn't a spell I won't lose my chill touch while using it at range.
These are excellent points, and you're right, I had not thought of it that way. If you go this route though, you are definitely more on the side of support caster than support melee though. You will be able to do some damage with your touch attack spells but you're better off doing hit and run tactics utilizing Spring Attack and Invisibility and mixing in some ranged attacks/spells.
I am not familiar with Pathfinder Savant. Are 2 levels required to gain that extra spell? If not, I still think 3 levels in Rogue is better than 1 Rogue/1 Assassin. You would end up with something like 4 Bard/3 Rogue/10 AT/2 Bard/1 Pathfinder Savant. I advocate Rogue because you really don't get anything from 1 Rogue/1 Assassin that you can't get from 3 Rogue. You can get poison use and a nice poison customizing ability if you go Poisoner Rogue so you don't need Assassin for that and Death Attack would be useless anyway with only 1 level of Assassin, your DC would forever be 11 + INT Mod. With 3 Rogue you get Poison Use, the same amount of SA dice, Evasion, +2 BAB, and the Rogue Talent class feature. The class feature not only allows you to get one of those talents but opens the door to the Extra Rogue Talent feat if you so choose.
Abe: I think you mean summon monster 6, remember the magician is still limited to a spell of a level he can cast (level 6 for bards).
As for the magician archetype bard. It is really a late blooming, lackluster class, that is ripe with roleplaying potential. Lets examine the perks to see why...
Dweomercraft: Lose inspire courage. OUCH! Especially in your party that is composed entirely of weapon oriented strikers. Two with a bow, one with a sword, this performance is only going to help you, and even so, it doesn't affect spell DCs, this means all those great autohit spells that force saves, don't recieve the benefit of this song. I really can't see a ton of use for this until the bonus is higher and the team is composed of more caster types...preferably 3.
Spell Suppression: sounds like a good ability, until you read the fine print. You have to use this song for a number of rounds before it really activates. That means, if a caster uses a level 8 spell in rounds 1 - 7 of combat, you can't suppress it. That is not a great ability. Secondly, it suppresses using the 3rd level dispel magic, not the better 5th level version. So, really I am going to have to say dirge of doom is better than this one...by a long way.
Metamagic Mastery: coming in at level 14 you finally get the best substitution song. Performance is a swift action at this point, so for a cost of 1 round of performance and a swift action, you may apply a metamagic feat to a spell, cast said spell AND still move. That is wonderfully awesome and could really be called the capstone of the class. It opens up lots of possibilities and reasons to take metamagic feats left and right. This is why the archetype is late blooming...you get your first taste of awesome at level 14.
Magical Talent: hmmm..trade a +1 per two levels on 10 skills for +1 per two levels on 3 skills. That is like trading 4 quarters for a 10 dollar bill, no thanks. Yeah, they are kinda useful skills since you are a caster...but you are losing 70% of bardic knowledge on skills that you are going to max out anyway..and in the long run, will be so over the top that you don't need to free points anyway.
Improved Counterspell: useful.
Extended Performance: lose spells to power something I get a crazy amount of rounds of anyway. Besides I already lost inspire courage and dirge of doom...what would I want to extend with my precious spells that I only have a finite amount of. Especially when you can take a feat that gives you more rounds. Yes, you can overlap bardic performance effects, and that may be a bit handy, but your spells are a much better use of those slots then extended performances. So, I am gonna give this one a "not-so useful". It replaces Well-Versed..which is very nice at resisting charms since charm spells require audible components and are language dependant. I am going to vote for Well-Versed on this one.
Expanded Repertoire: get spells that are still limited by your bardic casting level. Ok, you can add some damage spells to your repertoire. Great, but you can get those put on wands for everything up to level 4. Making this only useful for level 5 and 6 spells...which means you will be able to get two spells of 5th or 6th level (as Abe showed, you can fiddle with classes to get them in a spot you want them). 2....that is it. You are trading two spells for versatile performance: the ability to use performance skill scores for two skills?!? I can't say this is a good trade either.
Arcane Bond: yummy.
Wand Mastery: Other capstone of the class, at least in my mind. Make anything on a wand, basically a spell you can use is just fantastic. But again, this awesome ability comes late...level 10 and improved at level 16.
So..is magician worth it?
Gains:
- 2 extra spells (from any list)
- Arcane Bond
- Wand Mastery
- Metamagic Mastery
Loses:
- Inspire Courage
- Bardic Knowledge (definitely better than its replacement)
- Well-Versed
- Versatile Perforamnce (so helpful with the skill monkey portion of class)
- Dirge of Doom
Personally, I think if you want to play a caster...take a true caster, the magician just doesn't measure up to a core bard. Fun to roleplay, but he doesn't come into his own until Bard 14, and that is a long time to wait. It also limits the amount of goodies you can get from Arcane Trickster, as you will still need to grab rogue 1 and assassin/master spy 1, which means 16 levels gone...4 levels remain for AT. If the campaign is going epic...that is perfect, if not, I don't think you will be happy with the character's performance.
<Disclaimer: This post is entirely opinion and experience and is not meant to be taken as class-bashing or disparaging to any player who plays/loves this class.>
EDIT: accidently switched class abilities...sorry...fixed it now.