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Powerwise maybe, but having Cha be both the casting stat and the one giving you saves and powering your special attack once per day is something I'd rate pretty equal in terms of PFS play. You NEED good saves in late tier scenarios and I'd say Paladin/Charisma caster pretty much ensures you have those.
Not to mention, if he is going to be doing mainly buffing, CL is nothing. And I don't find either of the prestige classes to be ment for imitating a full caster, so melee it is.
What do you really want to be doing with this character? Are you intending to be a front-line fighter? Deal a ton of damage? Or be a caster who can resort to melee if needed?
The problem as I see it is that you are going to need Strength, Int/Cha, and some Dex....leaving you with no Con, which is bad on the front lines. Or you will have some Con, but no Dex...meaning you will either be in very heavy armor or be squishy, which will hurt a bunch of the skills you want to have (Also way later when you get spell critical you won't be able to use it really).
If you get Con and Dex but no Str, you won't be a real damage dealer (aside from a nova round with a Spell Storing weapon).
I personally think the best way to go with a EK is to use it to augment an Arcane Archer, and concentrate on Dex, with enough Int to cast spells and enough Strength to tack on some damage.
I'm always pimping this build, but here it is again at the level you are looking at:
Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 3/Arcane Archer 3
Mage Armor and Dex means no worries about ASF. Imbue Arrow is fun. You'll (hopefully) be at range anyway. Decent damage potential with Deadly Aim, Arcane Strike, medium str, and the extra attacks bows get (manyshot, rapid shot), a free elemental enhancement, etc. Arcane Archers also get some of the skills you want as class skills, where the other classes don't.
Just some thoughts.
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First, when building a caster, always take even # of levels from that caster.
Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 5 is a bit better than Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 6
Paladin 3/Sorcerer 2/Dragon Disciple 4/Paladin 3 is better than Paladin 2/Sorcerer 3/Dragon Disciple 4/Eldritch Knight 3.
Second, Eldritch Knight has a drop point at level 5. If you are not going to at least get to level 5, don't even consider taking the prestige class, it is mediocre to begin with, and dropping out of it at any point other than level 5, is just wasted levels.
Third, In all honesty, you are watering down your casting abilities so much, that your spell access should be the least of your priorities. I mean caster level of 10 in the most favorable arrangement is not bad, add in magical knack, and you are a B- caster with some combat ability. So, having said that, lets look at the issues with the combinations
Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight.
Not a bad combination, in fact with the magical knack trait, I rate this build as powerful as a normal wizard at level 20 and not one single level before. Not even at level 19. At level 20, you will receive the spell critical ability, and that will allow you to equal out against your pure caster brethren.
So, what does this mean for PFS. You are a B- wizard, and a B- warrior. You only get 20 points to build with, which means you will have two good stats, and two decent stats. You have 3 primary attributes to fill, and one secondary, this means that you will have a weakness in attributes. Skillwise, you will receive bonus skills for having a high Int, but they will not make up for the fact that they will still not be enough for you to cover all the skills you will need. So you will be able to master a couple skills, be mediocre at other skills, and be lacking in some skills. Lastly feats: you will be feat starved, this will force you into making very tough decisions.
As I mentioned earlier, this is a very difficult build to pull of by level 12, you will most likely spend your time feeling second best, and may end up just buffing people (and by the time you are done buffing, the fight is over). As much as I love gishes...I just can't recommend this build for PFS.
Paladin/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple.
Unlike the fighter/wizard combo, there is a ton of synergy here. This character starts off very, very tough and only gets tougher. For this build, you are not using spells for control or anything fancy, they exist to turn you into a combat machine, and the class abilities lend themselves to this task very well. While most paladins end up being tanks that can only do damage while smiting, you can have all of the paladin tankiness and the damage output of a striker. This build scales very well as you level, and does not require your character to "wait" to mature.
The best combination (in terms of optimization) are to start off with 7 levels of Paladin. This is why the build matures nicely with you. You will still have all the goodies the paladin class provides and so you have matured very promisingly. At level 8, one level of sorcerer, and then 4 levels of Dragon Disciple. This gets your bloodline powers to level 5 (nice bonuses). Most importantly, the 2 points of BAB you lose for taking sorcerer (1) and DD (1) are made up by gaining 4 points of strength. So your attack bonus will not suffer, and your daamge will go up. Although this doesn't help that you lose out on power attack goodness, you at least don't lose anything in the attack/damage department...in essence, you actually gain a bit.
Role: this character's role is as a striker. Do not think anything else. You do damage...lots of damage, and if they are evil, you put the might in smite. Your spells are buffs, and they augment your ability to bring the pain. You get to use a 2handed weapon, becuase you can cast shield spells.
Attributes: Strength and Charisma are primary, dex and con secondary.
Skills: You will need to invest in Knowledge Arcana (but the DD requirements don't say that it has to be a class skill, only that you need to put 5 ranks in it). The rest are arranged to taste. Sense Motive and Notice are good. Unlike the party wizard, the group doesn't expect you to have a ton of knowledge, you hit things...that is your skill.
Feats: Power Attack, and that is really all you need. This makes life easy, as you can take other goodies like Step Up that will allow you to fulfill your role as party striker even better.
In closing, I love gishes, in fact I am playing one now....but if you are limited by PFS to only level 12, you will not have the ability to make your Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight into the character you see in your mind. For PFS play, if you use the Paladin/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple route, you will be able to play a great striker. Of course, neither of these characters are pure casters.
Hope this novel helps...sorry about the length. Perhaps I should rename myself Silver Surfer :)
One more item.... sorry
Magic Item: Ring of Spell Storing (Minor) x2
After you finish your meditating in the morning, cast all of your spells in to your rings before you put on your armor. This is the best way to get around the casting in armor for arcane spells, and since you only have a couple spells...this makes your life super easy. This is also why you wait until level 8 to take the level of sorcerer...by then, you can easily afford a couple of the rings :)
I posted a lil bit ago but apparently it just never showed up...
Anyhow, Doc Cosmic makes some good points, but also some points I question.
Specifically, how is Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 5 any better than Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 6? I don't see it. At all. Maybe you lose 1 point of damage off of Telekinetic Fist? You're also delaying the point at which you get Spell Critical and bonus feats via EK for no real reason.
His warnings about playing a melee oriented EK build at mid-levels are dead on. It suffers from MAD really badly, and you won't really be good at any specific thing.
The paladin/sorcerer/Dragon Disciple build is very synergistic, but I have questions about it. Your Armor Class is going to be a huge issue. You'll either have to burn a feat to be able to wear light armor (not dex oriented so this is still bad and eats your swift actions), or you will be in Mage Armor (still not that great since you don't have a lot of Dex). You won't even be CL 7, so you can't even burn a second feat on Arcane Armor Expertise to get up to ignoring 20% ASF. Also, spending a round in combat to cast shield, when your character is designed to be a striker, is not really a good play, especially getting towards higher levels.
(Just saw the ring suggestion for spell storing...a good idea to get around the armor thing, though as you level those are going to be less effective. 18 grand apiece is nothing to laugh at either, in addition to casting the spells out at minimum caster level and only holding 3 spell levels per ring, which means you will be undressing and redressing a lot during a day)
If you do decide to go this route, get a spell storing weapon as well, that way you can Nova better as a striker in addition to storing one spell outside of combat.
As far as I can tell, the Dragon Disciple build has access to second level spells, and only even knows a couple. Your arcane strike (if you take it) is also trash because you only have CL 4. Honestly, you're just wayyyyyyy better off staying a Paladin, wearing Plate, smiting evil, and advancing Paladin spellcasting.
I like the DD /pally route personally. I would go more of Doc Cosmic's second build at least Pally 4 then maybe sorc 1 and the rest DD so DD 7. Gish it up with grace from the pally spell list and focus on save (partial) or buffs from sorc spells. The character is a fighter type for sure: 3 nat attacks with an energy property with smite is nice for a few rounds a day (allowing for a 2hd reach weapon build as you can threaten with the bite attack, albeit at massive penalties), 1 dragon form per day, light energy resistance to one type,4 str 2 con 4 nat armor before items, fly, resist energy, mage armor as your bonus spells. In PFS you will not get that ooh so tasty 13th level for the breath weapon, upping the energy resistance, another +1 nat armor and the +2 int. With grace negating AoO's for movement you can get into a nice flanking position or move out of combat to cure someone with LoH or a wand (not strong healing at 12 to use Doc's grade a C/C+) of course you could go Hospitalier for a light burst heal with the seperate channel feature if you desired to
Feats would be mostly wide open but power attack perhaps cleave wouldn't be bad options
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Well doc, your pretty much right...except that B- is being VERY generous for the warrior part. The EK is a B- caster and a solid D warrior. That is to say, you won't fail at it...but just barely so. Also you can get spell critical as soon as level 16...but I disagree that spell critical makes an EK be on equal footing as a normal caster unless you houserule it go off as a free action instead of a swift (which won't happen in PFS). In anycase, I wouldn't say it's as bad as you say for PFS games unless your playing with L33T players however. It's more fun then being a monk usually is.
I posted a lil bit ago but apparently it just never showed up...
Anyhow, Doc Cosmic makes some good points, but also some points I question.
Specifically, how is Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 5 any better than Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 6? I don't see it. At all. Maybe you lose 1 point of damage off of Telekinetic Fist? You're also delaying the point at which you get Spell Critical and bonus feats via EK for no real reason.
Well PFS only goes up to level 12. So no Spell Critical regardless of how it is built, and one of the reasons I don't really recommend the build. But since you asked why that layout, lets break down some numbers.
Figher 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 6
BAB +9
Caster Level: 10
Fort: +6
Ref: +3
Will: +6
Favored Class Bonuses: 5
Figher 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 5
BAB +9
Caster Level: 10
Fort: +7
Ref: +4
Will: +7
Favored Class Bonuses: 6
So BAB, Caster Level, # of feats and even # of skill points are all the same, the only difference in the build is one point better in all saves. That is a big deal. The other really nice thing is the extra favored class bonus, which thanks to the APG means something more than just a hit point or a skill point. It could mean an additional spell.
So, from a purely optimization standpoint, taking into consideration this is a PFS character that maxes at 12, Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 5 is the most optimized. [Now, if the character actually takes levels as Wizard 5/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 5/Wizard 1; or one of the other perfectly fine combinations is completely irrelevant and totally player decision, but the end build is F1/W6/EK5]
The paladin/sorcerer/Dragon Disciple build is very synergistic, but I have questions about it. Your Armor Class is going to be a huge issue. You'll either have to burn a feat to be able to wear light armor (not dex oriented so this is still bad and eats your swift actions), or you will be in Mage Armor (still not that great since you don't have a lot of Dex). You won't even be CL 7, so you can't even burn a second feat on Arcane Armor Expertise to get up to ignoring 20% ASF. Also, spending a round in combat to cast shield, when your character is designed to be a striker, is not really a good play, especially getting towards higher levels.
(Just saw the ring suggestion for spell storing...a good idea to get around the armor thing, though as you level those are going to be less effective. 18 grand apiece is nothing to laugh at either, in addition to casting the spells out at minimum caster level and only holding 3 spell levels per ring, which means you will be undressing and redressing a lot during a day)
If you do decide to go this route, get a spell storing weapon as well, that way you can Nova better as a striker in addition to storing one spell outside of combat.
Ok...AC building =) Lets hunker down and take a looksie. Bracers of Armor are fairly cheap, and you can snag a set of +8 no problemo. So there is 8AC. Robe of Arcane Heritage increases your Sorcerer Bloodline to 9 boosting natural armor by 2 more [without robe both builds get 2 natural armor, so not including that two here]. So, given these sources for armor, the character will have an +10 AC. That is the equivalent of Full Plate Armor +1, but you will need spell storage devices.
So Cost breakdown:
Bracers of Armor +8 (64k gp) + Robe of Arcane Heritage (16k gp) = 80,000gp
Full Plate Armor +1 (2,650 gp) + Ring of Spell Storing [minor] (18k gp) x2 = 38,350gp
As for how important is AC...well honestly, other forms of mitigation are much more important than AC, and at least with the blur spell in your arsenal, you can have a other methods of mitigation.
So, it is really player preference. I personally would go the armor route, especially since that would be my first purchase with the 1650gp I earn, but that is just me.
Pure Paladin. Pure Caster. Pure fill in the blank, will always be better in Pathfinder than multiclass. So yeah, pure pally is better than multiclass pally :)
Didn't know about the PFS restriction to 12...wow. In that case, certainly I stand corrected on the EK build front. Though you did leave out the HD difference of EK getting d10 vs. Wizard getting d6.
I still disagree about the AC of a DD build you've described. You're pouring a ton of resources into getting an AC that isn't that great with the non-armor version. With the armored version you're more on par, but the spellcasting is an issue....I'm just not sure that the rings of spell storing solve it, but they certainly mitigate it quite a bit.
Spending a round in combat casting Blur is akin to spending it casting Shield. It's a waste of in combat time, especially if you're role is to deal damage. If you can pre-buff, then that's awesome, but I dunno how common that is.
Either way, you've certainly changed my opinion somewhat on the two fronts. Especially if you're only going to level 12.
You know, I used to the think the same thing. Don't take a round to buff, when you could be using that round to melee, but I have changed my tune recently.
I have been playing a DD Striker, and have been surprisingly happy with using the first round to let the tank get into position, the artillery get into position, and the druid [controller] to cast her spells. What this does is give me a round to maximize my potential (quickened shield, quickened blur, and haste), and gives me a round to see how the bad guys arrange themselves. I have found that taking that extra bit of time to see what the battlefield looks like allows me to deal even more decisive damage where it counts, as opposed to "being in way of the control spells" or "tank has lowest initiative, and me (with my not so great AC) being the only enemy in range". It really has saved the character's bacon / and maximized the group's synergy.
So, my opinion on using that first round has changed from "don't waste it to buff" to "it is not that bad of an option".
Besides, most fights end up going on for more than one round, anything you can do to add to your sustainability (provided you aren't sinking two or three rounds into it) will have greater reward than running in, doing a ton of damage, getting surrounded and knocked out so that the party loses its fight-finisher.
just my experiences...ymmv
You must be packing a few lesser rods of quicken! Not a bad investment, certainly....but I'm no Wealth per level expert. And don't have time to look it up right now.
What's you build and item set up, as my curiosity is piqued for such a character? Being a fan of gishes I would like to try one and see how it does since you are giving such positive reviews.
This character is not really optimized so much as going for concept
Barbarian 2/Ranger 1/Sorcerer 2/Dragon Disciple 4
BAB +7
Attack Bonus: +16 (+4 Favored enemy, +2 Rage)
Damage: +11 (+6 Power Attack, +2d6+4 Favored Enemy, +3 Rage)
Base: Str 17 (+2 human, +2 level, +4 DD) current: Str 25
Spells:
[1] Shield, Obscuring Mist, Mage Armor, Grease, Color Spray (about to change for Silent Image at CL6)
[2] Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Resist Energy
Feats:
Power Attack, Cleave, Extra Rage (campaign feat), Step Up, Additional Traits [Magical Knack, Reactionary], Eschew Materials (sorcerer), Blind Fight (Dragon Disciple), Dragon Rage
Dragon Rage - modified from 3.5, grants character +2 natural armor and +5 resist energy (by specified dragon type) while raging. Pre-reqs: rage class feature, resist energy 5 (specified by dragon type) and a natural armor bonus. In other words, now this feat only works for barbarian/draconic bloodline sorcerers, as opposed to what it did in 3.5
Why the level of ranger? Our campaign takes place in the middle of a war between the demons and the devils fighting it out on our continent...so there is no lack of evil outsiders to whoop on. Can't wait to put holy on my 2h sword :)
You must be packing a few lesser rods of quicken! Not a bad investment, certainly....but I'm no Wealth per level expert. And don't have time to look it up right now.
What's you build and item set up, as my curiosity is piqued for such a character? Being a fan of gishes I would like to try one and see how it does since you are giving such positive reviews.
As this campaign is going to go into the epic levels, with our characters taking a trip into hell, it is hard to give you a "finished" build.
I absolutely intend of having a pair of metamagic quicken rods, that I will quick draw into/out of hip holsters like the old western gunslinger style :)
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Have you thought about making a magus? The magus does pretty much exactly what an EK needs to do, only with a single class.
Also: make sure you get a good strength on this character. As a 12th-level character, you should be able to get an 18 strength, which is what a stabracadabrist needs in order to be effective at the stabbing part. More is nice, but you absolutely need 18.
You COULD also just make a pure transmuter, only give him a lot of strength and use polymorph spells to kill stuff. Your BAB will be crap, but most of your to-hit won't come from BAB. And if you really need to hit something with lots of armor, that's what True Strike is for.
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Have you thought about making a magus? The magus does pretty much exactly what an EK needs to do, only with a single class.
Also: make sure you get a good strength on this character. As a 12th-level character, you should be able to get an 18 strength, which is what a stabracadabrist needs in order to be effective at the stabbing part. More is nice, but you absolutely need 18.
You COULD also just make a pure transmuter, only give him a lot of strength and use polymorph spells to kill stuff. Your BAB will be crap, but most of your to-hit won't come from BAB. And if you really need to hit something with lots of armor, that's what True Strike is for.
Is the magus PFS legal?
