Okay, having an argument with my GM about this. Situation is, my bard priestess of Calistria is traveling with an Inquisitor of Iomedae who is showing quite a bit of favor for a certain wasp-related portfolio recently. She's got crap wisdom, and will basically jump at any chance to open that portfolio, and having nearly lost him to a wyvern attack (which was soo NOT neutral, btw) invited him to join in her favorite form of worship with a diplomacy roll. Having trained in it via perform oratory and versatile performer, and with a very lucky roll, she succeeded in "convincing" him.
GM says is more like coercion, which I am finding hard to stomach. Do diplomacy rolls negate choice on the part of the NPC? GM's argument is that if you roll high enough you can get someone who is hostile to kill their own child, or some other terrifying thing. I should think that if that was the case, charm person, which is a spell and not skill check, would not allow the subject a save if you asked him to do something that was against his interests. Or, alternatively, charm person plus high diplomacy check = suggestion and/or dominate.
Personal view... Diplomacy should not equal the effect of suggestion, charm or dominate. Those are spells and should help be your guides as to the limits diplomacy can push an NPC.
Rowdy humor... Did this "form of worship" fall under "give aid that could result in punishment?"
Speculation... You're DM may be remembering 3.5 and the Epic Level Handbook which allowed Fanatical followers. This is not the case in Pathfinder. "Some requests automatically fail if the request goes against the creature's values or its nature, subject to GM discretion." Killing ones own offspring would qualify as going against a creature's value.... <.< Unless said creature was already looking for an excuse to do so XP. For example it would go against a chaste priest's values to go for a roll in the hay.
Personal view... Diplomacy and other such social skills are the method for arbitrating the Player Character's impact on the world around them. In this case NPC attitudes and responses. In a sense you as the player are taking away a bit of the DMs control on an NPCs actions and deciding what they will be. However the DM still has breaks when it comes to key core concepts of the NPC that cannot be violated by mundane means. You can't persuade a mother to kill her baby no matter how high you roll in Pathfinder, unless the DM thinks it possible in a given instance.
Changing a creature's values is well outside the scope of a simple Diplomacy check. You can kind of see changing a creatures nature in Handle Animal for training... but there we are talking about weeks for training on an creature of intelligence 1 or 2, not 10. Even then it a very limited impact.
Yeah, I heard those wyverns were real bad... I heard they even caused a paladin to fall sometime earlier. =)
Diplomacy is a poorly understood skill. It's used as a way to make people friendly. However, used again and again, you can make someone just as helpful as you like, without cost.
Truth is, you can influence people somewhat by how you act. They might decide not to attack at once, or otherwise walk the extra few feet for you if they already like you. However, if you want something big, it's not just diplomacy, but giving them a reason that matters.
You won't get the king to lend you a regiment of soldiers just because you're nice. You won't get fifty times the money for your loot from a merchant just because you're nice. And the truth is, it's not going to happen no matter what the other part thinks of you. If you want these things, you have to offer them something concrete, including guarantees that you'll use the soldiers for the right things, or whatever.
I guess the final point is that there are limits to what people will do even if helpful. And there is your answer. Diplomacy is not coercion or mind control.
P.S. Seduction uses the Bluff skill.
They do not equal "Do as I bid" rolls. That is Dominate Person. Suggestion is limited to a single action/course of action ("come worship Calistria with me").
Check: You can change the initial attitudes of nonplayer characters with a successful check... If you succeed, the character's attitude toward you is improved by one step.If a creature's attitude toward you is at least indifferent, you can make requests of the creature. This is an additional Diplomacy check, using the creature's current attitude to determine the base DC, with one of the following modifiers. Once a creature's attitude has shifted to helpful, the creature gives in to most requests without a check, unless the request is against its nature or puts it in serious peril. Some requests automatically fail if the request goes against the creature's values or its nature.
DOMINATE PERSON: You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject's mind.
So, with a Diplomacy you can ask favors that the subject is under *no compulsion to obey*. You can ask the Inquisitor to come and check out the Worship Service, but you cannot *force* them to do so. Unless you cast Dominate Person/Monster. Also note the Diplomacy stipulation about autofailing certain 'requests'.
GNOME
P.S. Seduction uses the Bluff skill.
lol does it? Maybe you are earnest in your desire to be intimate ;) Or maybe, "Of course I will respect you in the morning" is not just pillow talk :p
GNOME
Another point of difference to remember between 3.5 and Pathfinder.
• In Pathfinder the adjustment in attitude lasts typically 1d4 hours. Unless DM feels circumstances warrant long or short times.
• 3.5 never defined the typical duration, or wether or not it reverted at all.
Haha, this particular Inquisitor hasn't been chaste for a good while. I would like to keep him as a devotee to Iomedae if I can, because he has pretty gorgeous wisdom, and his righteous foster father, high level, late 50's LAWFUL good cleric of Iomedae already hates my character's guts. It's a highly social campaign set in Pitax, I'm sure there's plenty of other angles that it would be better he remained an Inquisitor of Iomedae I cannot even begin to fathom.
As for the "form of worship" resulting in "punishment" I haven't the foggiest. Me and my character are wondering where Iomedae draws the line with what She'll put up with from her faithful. His foster father has already sent him packing, and with little or no effort on her part he keeps sliding further and further into chaos. He's already killed in a mixture of anger, hatred and revenge and called it "justice" because the victim happened to be a follower of Asmodeus who was also a gleeful sadist and rapist of women. At this point (and with WIS 8) his participation in her "rituals" is the least of his offenses against Iomedae's portfolios.
Okay, having an argument with my GM about this. Situation is, my bard priestess of Calistria is traveling with an Inquisitor of Iomedae who is showing quite a bit of favor for a certain wasp-related portfolio recently. She's got crap wisdom, and will basically jump at any chance to open that portfolio, and having nearly lost him to a wyvern attack (which was soo NOT neutral, btw) invited him to join in her favorite form of worship with a diplomacy roll. Having trained in it via perform oratory and versatile performer, and with a very lucky roll, she succeeded in "convincing" him.
Not if you say she didn't. No number of social interaction rolls can 'convince' your character to do anything you do not want them to. Unless she uses a mind control spell, forget it. The most it can do is say: "You find her very appealing, and it does make sense."
You can still reply: "No, I'm not into it, sorry."
GM says is more like coercion, which I am finding hard to stomach.
That would be the Intimidate skill.
Do diplomacy rolls negate choice on the part of the NPC?
No. Even spells struggle to make people do things against their nature.
GM's argument is that if you roll high enough you can get someone who is hostile to kill their own child, or some other terrifying thing. I should think that if that was the case, charm person, which is a spell and not skill check, would not allow the subject a save if you asked him to do something that was against his interests. Or, alternatively, charm person plus high diplomacy check = suggestion and/or dominate.
You would be right. You can use Diplomacy to convince somebody it is a good idea to kill their own child, you can convince them that you need to perform this risky ritual on their child, but if they don't have it in them to stick the knife in, they won't.
Social skills DO NOT change the fundamental nature of someone. They essentially change that person's attitude to the speaker (in terms of Diplomacy and Intimidate) or convince them that they are not lying (in terms of Bluff), but that's all. If you love your child above all else, then having somebody convince you that they are a prophet of the gods, that they have a divine message that your child is the Adversary and will wipe all life off the face of the earth if you do not kill them now, and that all the demons of hell will rend your soul into a thousand pieces for eternal torment if you don't ... if you love your child above all else, you still won't do it.
Some requests automatically fail if the request goes against the creature's values or its nature.
This is the important line to note in the Diplomacy skill; you can't talk someone into killing their own child if it's against a creature's values or nature.
Having said that, as a GM I probably wouldn't use the Diplomacy skill as-is. I'd probably just simplify it to something like is used in Fallout 3 or Mass Effect -- high Diplomacy opens up "additional dialogue options", but it doesn't allow the player to make any kind of goofy request look reasonable.
Diplomacy is NOT coercion. At all. You are convincing, using polemics, debating, seducing, schmoozing, or kissing up to the other person, but coercion is the realm of Intimidate, NOT diplomacy.
GM says is more like coercion, which I am finding hard to stomach. Do diplomacy rolls negate choice on the part of the NPC?
No. It just makes the NPC want to choose what you want them to choose.
You do not magically compel someone to go to church, you make them willing to go to church.
GM's argument is that if you roll high enough you can get someone who is hostile to kill their own child, or some other terrifying thing.
DC 80... twice as hard as swimming up a waterfall in full plate armor.
I should think that if that was the case, charm person, which is a spell and not skill check, would not allow the subject a save if you asked him to do something that was against his interests.
Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell
-Rules lawyering aside, i would say that threatening a child is as good as threatening the parent and will snap the spell. (unless you charmed some sort of praying mantis monster)