Hey everyone, I was delighted when I saw the playtest, I've been wanting an alternate magic system for my dnd game for so long, yet I was worried about breaking the game.
I Love the system, I Love the level of mixing and matching that it brings to preparing your old spells. It did however worry me when I saw that you had to choose between Power word magic and the classic magic system ( we need a name for that, but for now i'm going to call it "rote" magic).
part of the problem I have with the system is that it only covers elements from the more basic spells. worse yet, the spells seem to have even less flexibility than the usual spell system. I understand that this is only a playtest, and what we are getting is only a small slice of what will eventually be in the book, but it's worrying to see some of my favorite, more versatile spell elements missing.
to put my problem into words, look at it this way. you've got plenty of ways to throw lightning, acid, or whatever other element you please.... But how do I replicate spells like stoneshape, animate objects, or
so I'm making a list here of elements I'm sorely missing, and invite you to do the same.
Teleportation (from short jumps to world spanning, would be a great addition to the word system. I've already got a spell brewing in mind where the player teliports a short distance and unleashes a nasty explosion at either the beginning or end of their trip)
Shaping ( from shaping and manipulating elements around them to creating material on the spot, shaping spells, when combined with the power word system would be even more versatile then they are now)
Force of movement ( different than say, a force effect.... this category includes pushing and pulling objects, yourself(flying)and knocking foes around. Imagine a spell that pulled/pushed a foe, combined with the short range line...... you could pull someone towards you, push them away, Pull a low flying creature down to the ground, or throw someone up in the air and let them fall.)
Negative space ( words affecting negative space would allow you to create self contained spaces, like the rope trick or the secret chest spells, and at higher levels, would allow you to negate physical objects. )
The last one I have is hard to name, but these sorts of words would summon objects into being. Perhaps creating a temporary item, or an attack spell with a duration like Mage's sword.
anyway, those are my ideas for now, I Look forward to seeing what everyone else comes up with.
I'm having the same concern. Loosing out on things like Magnificent Mansion (and the flavor therein) is sad.
I would prefer to hybridized system wherein all of the "bread and butter" spells were created via the Words of Power system, and then really fancy spells (of the caliber that they're looking for for Wonderous Items in RPG Superstar) were available as "rotes" that could be memorized alongside them.
I'm confident that things like Teleport and Force of Movement will make it into the final product: those are easy to use as "building blocks." It's the more bizarre stuff (the truly "magical" if you will) that I'm afraid will fall by the wayside.
Director of Games
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As a quick note, some of the word families are still being put together and I would love to see the take of the playtesters as to what is missing, if for nothing else than to compare it to our lists.
I may start a new thread just for this purpose.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Director of Games
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And it should be noted that the bizarre stuff is hard to fit into a system like this. Making effects like Guards and Wards is basically impossible without just importing the effect pretty much as written, which kinda defeats the purpose of this system.
You gain flexibility in how the effects manifest, but lose that fine specificity that only a specific spell can offer. Its part of the tradeoff.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
As far as I can see, that's not too big a problem. If a wordcaster wants some specific spells that can't be constructed using words, they can take Versatile Wordcaster to gain those spells, or a bloodline or domain that grants those spells.
And it should be noted that the bizarre stuff is hard to fit into a system like this. Making effects like Guards and Wards is basically impossible without just importing the effect pretty much as written, which kinda defeats the purpose of this system.
You gain flexibility in how the effects manifest, but lose that fine specificity that only a specific spell can offer. Its part of the tradeoff.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Exactly my thoughts Jason, and exactly the choice that the players need to make when they create their character. whether to go with the flexibility that the words grant you, or go with rote magic for some of it's crazier effects.
I was actually delighted to see the magic system as it fit perfectly with my home made setting..... In it, I already have two forms of magic. Cuberic magic , which is the simple core dnd magic system, (one based on old formulae and runes that magic seems to orderly work on) and Primal magic, which operates on rituals that the players are totally ignorant of. In lore, both types of magic stemmed off the same "original" magic.... and I've had a lot of players asking what exactly came first.
Powerword fit in perfectly, as it allows the same sort of effects as core magic, but with more of a creative and flexible feel. Now I can start saying that the Cuberics started to write down their power word formulae to save time, and later switched to these rote spells for ease of casting.
Also... one more for the elements.... Stuff that entangles, blinds etc...... I suppose these could be worked into others, Like shaping.... but honestly... I'd love to throw a bit of lightning and have the person be stunned for a round afterwords.
There definitely need to be more meta-type effects:
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- Increase duration: up one stage, from 1 round -> rounds per level -> minutes per level -> 10 minutes per level -> 1 hour per level -> 1 day per level. I wouldn't think the cost would need to scale if you only allowed this word to be used once per spell (which I think is default anyway?). This would allow mage armor style all-day protection, which is important to wizards and sorcerers.
- Decrease duration: down one stage, as above but reversed. This would be to reduce the overall cost of a spell and thus allow it at an earlier stage, sort of like the "swift [foo]" spells from 3.5, that were a level or two earlier and castable as a swift action but only lasted 1 round. Perhaps, again in that vein, have it reduce straight to a single round duration rather than reduce by stages.
- Increase cast time: again, this would be a cost-saving measure. However, it's also the gateway into cool very long cast "ritual" type spells, with a little effort.
- Reduce cast time: wordcasters need a Quicken analogue.
- Extra allowed target type: wall of bear's endurance? Sure, why not?
I also really like the idea of adding in a combat maneuver category. That opens up the ability to at least partially re-create telekinesis, black tentacles, reverse gravity, hold person, and other iconic spells.
I shall point out what seemed to be egregiously missing, in an effort to be super helpful!
Invisibility is missing.
Special movement (increased speed, flight, etc.) is also missing.
Teleportation is missing.
A way to divine the properties of items is missing.
Scrying / clairvoyance is gone too.
Spells that enhance weapons are missing (perhaps a system where you grant special weapon properties, like with a paladin's weapon bond, would probably work well here)
Summoning multiple creatures is gone.
You can't become ethereal.
There's a huge potential for cloud/fog spells here, too.
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Director of Games
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I shall point out what seemed to be egregiously missing, in an effort to be super helpful!
Invisibility is missing.
Special movement (increased speed, flight, etc.) is also missing.
Teleportation is missing.
A way to divine the properties of items is missing.
Scrying / clairvoyance is gone too.
Spells that enhance weapons are missing (perhaps a system where you grant special weapon properties, like with a paladin's weapon bond, would probably work well here)
Summoning multiple creatures is gone.
You can't become ethereal.
There's a huge potential for cloud/fog spells here, too.
Just to be clear for folks, some of these are missing on purpose. We did not give you the entire system so that we could get more focused results. Mind you, I am asking you what is missing, so no worries, but I just thought I would take a quick moment to clarify.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Ah, I figured as much - but it's going to be a bit difficult to compare with regular spellcasters via playtest with so much of the functionality missing! Though the limited scope is good for the number crunchers and theorycrafters to do their thing, which I imagine is primarily what this stage of the playtest is for.
In any case, I clarified my post in the word families section!
Things to think of - a feature to extend casting time to either increase limit of cost per spell or add bonus "cost points" to the spell to be used.
Also some specific term for cost would be nice, like "magnitude" of Ars Magica or arcs from Forgotten Realms 1st (or 2nd, not sure) Ancient Netheril supplement.
There are two areas that I'm skeptical about with a "build your own power" system (whether it's Pathfinder, or Champions, or Mutants & Masterminds).
And it should be noted that the bizarre stuff is hard to fit into a system like this. Making effects like Guards and Wards is basically impossible without just importing the effect pretty much as written, which kinda defeats the purpose of this system.
This is the first one: weird and unusual powers are hard to build. For instance, I wouldn't want to give up the ability to cast Blink or Black Tentacles just so I can cast Acidball instead of Fireball.
There definitely need to be more meta-type effects:
[listDecrease duration: down one stage, as above but reversed. This would be to reduce the overall cost of a spell and thus allow it at an earlier stage, sort of like the "swift [foo]" spells from 3.5, that were a level or two earlier and castable as a swift action but only lasted 1 round. Perhaps, again in that vein, have it reduce straight to a single round duration rather than reduce by stages.[/list]
This is the second one: there's a temptation to make powers cheaper by adding limitations that don't limit very much. For instance, you could argue that if Glitterdust is a 2nd level spell, then a single target Glitterdust should be level 1 and a touch range single target Glitterdust should be level 0.
Note that both of these areas were problems (IMO) with the epic spells system from the Epic Level Handbook.
I'll wait and see how the playtest progresses.
This is the second one: there's a temptation to make powers cheaper by adding limitations that don't limit very much. For instance, you could argue that if Glitterdust is a 2nd level spell, then a single target Glitterdust should be level 1 and a touch range single target Glitterdust should be level 0.
I notice how your examples have absolutely nothing at all to do with my text that you quoted. Please don't do that. Unless you really believe that reducing a spell down to a single round duration isn't an actual limitation?
This is the second one: there's a temptation to make powers cheaper by adding limitations that don't limit very much. For instance, you could argue that if Glitterdust is a 2nd level spell, then a single target Glitterdust should be level 1 and a touch range single target Glitterdust should be level 0.I notice how your examples have absolutely nothing at all to do with my text that you quoted.
You talked about a specific case of reducing spell levels with a limitation and I referred to the general case.
Unless you really believe that reducing a spell down to a single round duration isn't an actual limitation?
It depends on the spell. For instance, I don't think that reducing the duration of Stinking Cloud to 1 round (plus 1d4+1 rounds afterwards) would be much of a limitation, since in my experience having the cloud stick around often causes as many problems as it solves. Likewise, I don't think that a 1 round Hold Person would make it a 1st level spell.