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I'm about to run a fairly extensive arc using Intellect Devourers. I have some questions about how the body thief power works.
So, clearly, they inhabit dead bodies, not live targets -- their body thief attack kills the target even if it was alive when they started. However, the PRD also says:
The intellect devourer has full access to all of the host's defensive and offensive abilities save for spellcasting and spell-like abilities (although the intellect devourer can still use its own spell-like abilities).
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Damage done to a host body does not harm the intellect devourer, and if the host body is slain, the intellect devourer emerges and is dazed for 1 round.
So, to model a devourer + host, would you stat up the host body as it was when alive (at full hit points, even though the devourer killed it)? I'm strangely assuming that somehow the cure moderate wounds ability might facilitate this, even though CMW doesn't work that way. They should at least have mend to stitch up the corpse and help the facade work. Or... could you assume (in the case where the devourer wants to masquerade as the target as best it can) that they have full hit points minus the damage the body thief attack might have done? So, maximum, the devourer host body has Full HP - 19 (the minimum the coup de grace attack could have done)?
Then... if the devourer + host is attacked, does damage first come off the host body, then the devourer emerges and can attack at full HP?
A most confusing monster, but so wonderfully scary I just have to use it. I've used it once before, but just winged it on how this all should work. Now that the party might face several in a row, I have to figure out some consistent method for adjudicating this.
By my reading, the ID basically returns the body to life, but with itself in the braincase. So the body would have the HP it had when it died, and the ID would have consumed the brain to make space for itself (thus gaining all the knowledge/skills/etc).
The body isn't a construct, so it doesn't need mend. It's a now living shell for the ID, and would be alive and affected by all cure effects as normal (and damaged by negative energy).
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A few more questions I forgot to include in the OP:
* Stats
Do you use the hosts physical stats and the devourers mental stats? I'm quite sure the appropriate CMD for a combat maneuver is based off the size and build of the host, so that makes sense to me
* Saves versus attacks while devourer is 'in' the host?
Fort/Ref saves -- are they the hosts (former) saves, the devourers, or best of the two? Will saves are clearly the devourers, since there's no host mind left.
This all almost seems to require spelling out via a template or something. Sure, I can wing it again, but I'm wondering if there is some general ruling from the 1st Ed / 2nd Ed / 3.5 days that sums up what the intent was -- these are really old monsters! I don't recall if they had the body-stealing ability back in ye olde days -- for me, they were always the 'scary psionic brain monster' and I never was keen on psionics, so I just realized I've been skimming over them since grade school days.
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* Stats
Do you use the hosts physical stats and the devourers mental stats? I'm quite sure the appropriate CMD for a combat maneuver is based off the size and build of the host, so that makes sense to me* Saves versus attacks while devourer is 'in' the host?
Fort/Ref saves -- are they the hosts (former) saves, the devourers, or best of the two? Will saves are clearly the devourers, since there's no host mind left.
I would use the host's Fort & Ref with the devourer's Will. Host's physical stats and devourer's mental stats. Scary creature indeed!
* Stats
Do you use the hosts physical stats and the devourers mental stats? I'm quite sure the appropriate CMD for a combat maneuver is based off the size and build of the host, so that makes sense to me* Saves versus attacks while devourer is 'in' the host?
Fort/Ref saves -- are they the hosts (former) saves, the devourers, or best of the two? Will saves are clearly the devourers, since there's no host mind left.This all almost seems to require spelling out via a template or something. Sure, I can wing it again, but I'm wondering if there is some general ruling from the 1st Ed / 2nd Ed / 3.5 days that sums up what the intent was -- these are really old monsters! I don't recall if they had the body-stealing ability back in ye olde days -- for me, they were always the 'scary psionic brain monster' and I never was keen on psionics, so I just realized I've been skimming over them since grade school days.
I think it's left vague on purpose so the GM can do what he needs. As for the stats, yes, the physicals are the host body. Int and Wis yes, devourer. However, CHA is a combination of force of personality and physical attractiveness. I'd probably 'average' the two. Or at least let the hosts cha affect the final cha. If the host had a very attractive body, then give the final amalgam a boost. If they had a very ugly or twisted body, or if had partially rotted, give it penalties to the cha (scars after healing).
Saves would be physically based off host stats, will based off devourer.
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OK, so my ideas aren't far off from consensus. Good enough for me.
I think I'll be going with the hosts physical stats while the devourer is 'riding' it, including using the Fort/Ref saves. Mental stats will be devourer totally, since I tend to hand-wave most of the purely physical attributes of CHA and keep around a Comeliness stat (word up to Gary G!), and I'll probably dink a few points off that even if the devourer keeps up with the Gentle Repose spells -- something has to seem 'off' about the whole thing.
Although it's more book-keeping with two sets of stats, saves and such, there will only be a few of these hanging about for the duration of the whole arc, and I think the extra effort will pay off in the end.
Just adding some thoughts as well, since I think the Paizo Intellect Devourers is a brilliant working of the critter.
1) Could an Intellect Devourer make use of the 'Clone' spell? That way it can have a 'fall back' position. Plus, by using other magic, it can have different 'chassis' around to better suit whatever situation happens.
2) What happens when an Intellect Devourer gets hold of a Troll?
3) For that matter, what about a Flesh Golem?
4) Is an Ettin a monster built for mated Intellect Devourers? A creature with its own 'His' and 'Hers' head?
If an Intellect Devourer took over one head, would the other still function normally for the Ettin or would the ID control that as well?
If an Intellect Devourer took over one head, would the other still function normally for the Ettin or would the ID control that as well?Just adding some thoughts as well, since I think the Paizo Intellect Devourers is a brilliant working of the critter.
1) Could an Intellect Devourer make use of the 'Clone' spell? That way it can have a 'fall back' position. Plus, by using other magic, it can have different 'chassis' around to better suit whatever situation happens.
2) What happens when an Intellect Devourer gets hold of a Troll?
3) For that matter, what about a Flesh Golem?
4) Is an Ettin a monster built for mated Intellect Devourers? A creature with its own 'His' and 'Hers' head?
Hey give me my Avatar back.
Creative Director
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The best/easiest way to handle an intellect devourer in a stolen body is to run the stolen body as if it were still alive, but without any spell-like abilities or spellcasting (replace these with the intellect devourer's spell-like abilities and, if it has spellcaster class levels, its spellcasting abilities). All other stats simply use the body's stats it had when it was alive, including saving throws and all that. When the body is slain, the intellect devourer pops out (at full hp) and can now be defeated. Battles of this sort are basically against back-to-back foes.
If you REALLY want to get into it, you can certainly substitute in the intellect devourer's mental ability scores and his skills and feats and all that, but that's not really necessary. It's a magical form of control, after all—it's supposed to feel like you're fighting the real creature, and thus more like fighting something that's been dominated rather than something that's been turned into a zombie.
Hey give me my Avatar back.
I would if it let me upload my own. Best I could find (that I wanted to use) were ones that 6 other people were already using. :D
Hey give me my Avatar back. I would if it let me upload my own. Best I could find (that I wanted to use) were ones that 6 other people were already using. :D
Although I did create an alternate that I haven't used...