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In my game this past weekend, the party encountered two medium fire elementals. At one point, one of the fire elementals connected with his slam and I said the burn was automatic so the character should take the resulting burn damage and had to make a reflex save. I was told this was wrong and the fire elemental had to make a second subsequent attack as the statblock stated "plus burn". The example given was like a wolf has "plus trip" and has to make a combat maneuver check. I don't think this is correct as further in the burn description it states unarmed strikes would have to take damage upon hitting the elemental and make a Reflex save or catch on fire. Which is the correct way to handle this?
It sounds to me like you had it right. Burn isn't a combat maneuver, it's an additional damage thing -- like poison. No one expects a viper to have to make a combat maneuver check to poison a PC when it bites them; it just happens when the creature hits and the PC then needs to make a save against the additional effect.
Burn (Ex)
A creature with the burn special attack deals fire damage in addition to damage dealt on a successful hit in melee. Those affected by the burn ability must also succeed on a Reflex save or catch fire, taking the listed damage for an additional 1d4 rounds at the start of its turn (DC 10 + 1/2 burning creature's racial HD + burning creature's Con modifier). A burning creature can attempt a new save as a full-round action. Dropping and rolling on the ground grants a +4 bonus on this save. Creatures that hit a burning creature with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take fire damage as though hit by the burning creature and must make a Reflex save to avoid catching on fire.
Format: burn (2d6, DC 15); Location: Special Attacks and individual attacks.
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Burn (Ex) A creature with the burn special attack deals fire damage in addition to damage dealt on a successful hit in melee. Those affected by the burn ability must also succeed on a Reflex save or catch fire, taking the listed damage for an additional 1d4 rounds at the start of its turn (DC 10 + 1/2 burning creature's racial HD + burning creature's Con modifier). A burning creature can attempt a new save as a full-round action. Dropping and rolling on the ground grants a +4 bonus on this save. Creatures that hit a burning creature with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take fire damage as though hit by the burning creature and must make a Reflex save to avoid catching on fire.
Format: burn (2d6, DC 15); Location: Special Attacks and individual attacks
from the PRD.
Sounds like each time a creature with Burn(ex) hits something the defender makes a reflex save- failure means they get burned.
Burn is not a combat maneuver, its a special ability. It isn't really analogous to the Trip made by a wolf.
-S
edit: ninja'd! lol :)
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Hey guys. I'm one of the players in Neo's game. :)
Sounds like each time a creature with Burn(ex) hits something the defender makes a reflex save- failure means they get burned.Burn (Ex) A creature with the burn special attack deals fire damage in addition to damage dealt on a successful hit in melee. Those affected by the burn ability must also succeed on a Reflex save or catch fire, taking the listed damage for an additional 1d4 rounds at the start of its turn (DC 10 + 1/2 burning creature's racial HD + burning creature's Con modifier). A burning creature can attempt a new save as a full-round action. Dropping and rolling on the ground grants a +4 bonus on this save. Creatures that hit a burning creature with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take fire damage as though hit by the burning creature and must make a Reflex save to avoid catching on fire.
Format: burn (2d6, DC 15); Location: Special Attacks and individual attacks
Right.
Two questions: what is the listed damage referred to in the glossary entry? Under Elemental, fire in the Monster Index it says, "Melee slam +7 (1d6+1 plus burn)". Note the word "plus". In cases where creatures have poison, an entry that says "1d4 plus poison" means to do 1d4 of normal damage, then check the poison entry and follow those instructions (Fort save, ability damage, etc).
But the glossary entry says to use the "listed damage" and that damage isn't in the creature entry. Should it be the same as the slam damage (1d6+1)? Or perhaps just 1d6 since that's the normal damage from fire? You'll note that the Format specified in the glossary isn't followed by the Bestiary entry for the fire elemental...
Second question: there is no damage type given for the elemental's attack (it's just listed as slam, not as fire damage) so a creature hit with a slam attack wouldn't automatically be on fire, hence there is no additional fire damage from the elemental unless the target fails their Reflex save. If the fire elemental was meant to do both slam damage AND fire damage with a single attack roll the melee entry would read "slam (1d4 plus 1d6 fire and burn)" where the "1d6 fire" is the energy damage and the "burn" refers to the ability to start the creature on fire.
Anyone have answers to either of those questions? (What is the "listed damage" since it's not in the melee entry, and The fire elemental doesn't do energy damage just a normal slam so if additional fire damage *is* part of its attack why does the melee entry in the statblock not say so?)
Whew. :)
Director of Narrative
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The burn damage is listed on the next line under Special Attacks.
The burn special attack deals fire damage and then has the chance to set the target on fire.
So in the case of a Medium fire elemental, the damage from a successful attack would be 1d6+1 (from the slam) and 1d6 fire (from the burn special attack) and the target must succeed on a Reflex save or else take fire damage for 1d4 rounds.
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The burn damage is listed on the next line under Special Attacks.
Doh! *forehead-slam*
How did I miss that?!
Yes, you are correct. It should do 1d6 fire damage on a successful melee attack and set the target on fire (and do additional damage on subsequent rounds) only if the target fails his Reflex save.
@Neo: I screwed up. :(
