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If the DM ever does something like that in a game I'm playing, there are bigger issues than the attack on the spellbook.
If you plot hook the players unto a sinking ship and have no rules for making the book waterproof, then yes the book SHOULD get plot protection.
Really?!? Because honestly the whole shipwreck deal is a pretty often used plot hook...and one that the latest AP uses to start actually.
Yep. According to some people on this thread, Wizards should be useless for more or less the entirety of Souls for Smuggler's Shiv.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Agreed. The odd drop of water shouldn't damage a spellbook. A good long soak might. As I posted above, I've been able to recover books and papers from basement flooding and with careful drying have preserved the majority of the text, if not the shape of the book. Others have been total losses.However, it seemed to me the debate wandered away from the method of destruction and began to focus more on whether or not a spellbook is a fair target in general.
It irks me that the pro-wizard crowd wants their uberness without any risk.
I recognize it's a big risk, and potentially a touchy one for the player. I think it was Cartigan that compared loss of a spellbook to blindness for a fighter. I think that's a good comparison. I remember how I felt when one of my PCs was blinded. I was really angry, because suddenly the PC was pretty much useless, and I was too immature to consider ways to make it work in the story. Today, my reaction looks like one of the low points in my gaming career. But I digress.
So, adventurers get in fights with adversaries of all stripes. If I use blindness against them am I punishing them for being adventurers?
No, because getting into fights with interesting monsters that might potentially harm you is the adventure part of the adventure. If you remove that, you're not even letting them be adventurers in the first place.
Now, hitting a player with blindness because his high-stress rough and tumble lifestyle gave him hypertension leading to cataracts/glaucoma? That's punishing a player for being an adventurer. Plus, kind of boring, and needlessly punitive.
I'm not saying don't target the spellbook. I'm saying, save targeting the spellbook for when it'll be exciting, entertaining, and overall improve the encounter/adventure (and I think most of the pro-wizard camp would agree with me).
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I've not met many witch or wizard characters with much more than 6 spells per spell level except level 1 (which has the added Int mod bonus spells).
Really? Because the basis of the whole "Wizards are unto GODS!!!" argument is that because:
1. wizards have no limit to the amount of spells they can scroll into their spellbooks, and...
2. every half-deserted village has a magic store with multiple bookshelves lined with scrolls of every spell in existence, then...
all wizards are seemingly assumed to have every wizard/sorcerer spell of a level that they can cast in their spellbook. Plus they are generally assumed to have any and all personal buff/ward spells active at all times.
Again, this is the hypothetical forum wizards. The ones that are argued to make all other classes obsolete. The kind that don't actually exist in actual games.
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Becoming a wizard is for weaklings who would prefer to cower behind cover playing with owlbear feces, making silly hand gestures, and chanting nonsense while a battle is raging. They can occasionaly be useful in non-combat situations, but they're often so frail and cowardly that they complain that they need to sleep after the group has killed only a few hundred orcs. They also insist on having someone who CAN be useful in battle hang back to protect them, should any enemies manage to sneak up behind the group. In doing so, they rob a warrior of his potential glory.
Wizards...pah! *spits*
What do sahaugin wizards write on?
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I've put a wizard on a sinking ship in my games before. The player had his character run below deck, grab a chest, haul it up to the captain's quarters, threw his spellbook inside, and melted candle wax from the captain's chandelier into the seams and key hole. He then used it as a buoy as he swam out to sea. After several days, he found land.
I loved every minute of it.
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I've put a wizard on a sinking ship in my games before. The player had his character run below deck, grab a chest, haul it up to the captain's quarters, threw his spellbook inside, and melted candle wax from the captain's chandelier into the seams and key hole. He then used it as a buoy as he swam out to sea. After several days, he found land.
I loved every minute of it.
Well done.
And that is EXACTLY the way wizards should be played, as thinking outside the box, instead of relying on every situation to be nuked with their highest-level spell of the moment.
Sometimes, you can do useful things without needing to crack a cantrip.
I actually don't think wizards are NEARLY as overpowered and unstoppable as lots of folks seem to think.Nor do I. And despite my arguments of late, I wouldn't go out of my way to screw over a wizard. But at the same time, I don't think that the spellbook should be totally "off limits". If the player is careless, it should stand a chance of being damaged. And a long-term BBEG might decide that one of the best ways to weaken the party is to eliminate the threat the wizard presents.
Then the simple and effective way to do this is to kill the wizard.
Taking away his spellbook and destroying it isn't killing the wizard. It's wounding and tormenting him.
Ever heard "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger?" Well, burning their books is definitely "meddling."
So, yeah, they might kill the BBEG, but if he thinks that's the worst they could do, he doesn't know much about wizards. Polymorphing him into some hideous form is classic. Cursing him also works. Consigning him to eternal torment? Well, one can assume that BBEG souls go to some Hell anyway, but there's allowing someone to become a devil compared to bribing a devil to keep him stewing eternally and subject to additional tortures as an object lesson. And if the torments of Hell aren't up to your personal standards, you can always bring him back as a mummy or something and have him raped by an endless parade of undead lemmings.
But wait, you're saying, good characters would never do something like that. No, they probably wouldn't. But good characters don't always stay good forever, and today's sweet starry-eyed young wizard is tomorrow's cranky vindictive old lich.
You think if anyone ever burned so much as a page of one of Vecna's spellbooks that he hasn't made a hobby of tormenting that person for all eternity?
Bards would know all about this. It would be the fantasy equivalent of Chekov's gun. If someone burns a wizard's spellbook in the first act of a play, they're going to end up an undead hermaphroditic tree sloth by the third act, because that's the way things work. Hell, you can even kill the wizard first, but if you burn the book later, his ghost will come back to wreak horrible vengeance.
Same thing goes true with a witch's familiar. Anyone who even accidentally harms a witch's kitty cat is going to live their life in terror because they know that eventually the witch is going to get powerful enough to show up and powercycle Forced Reincarnation until they come back as something entertaining.
Any creature with more than two brain cells would know to leave the wizard's book and the witch's familiar alone, and any creature stupider than that would not know enough to be able to think to do it.
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I've put a wizard on a sinking ship in my games before. The player had his character run below deck, grab a chest, haul it up to the captain's quarters, threw his spellbook inside, and melted candle wax from the captain's chandelier into the seams and key hole. He then used it as a buoy as he swam out to sea. After several days, he found land.
I loved every minute of it.
I applaud this player. He found himself in a bad situation, and he took steps to PREVENT his spellbook from damage. He didn't just rely on what has apparently become the new default 1st level wizard class ability: Spellbook Plot Immunity.
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[clipped a lot of stuff about how if you have ever EVER messed with a wizard's spellbook, a witch's familiar, etc; not even his death can save you]
So what you're saying is that any PC who has ever swiped the spellbook off an enemy should be relentlessly tormented for the rest of their career by a wizard who just KEEPS ressurecting no matter how often they manage to kill him.
Remember, what's good for the goose (NPCs) is good for the gander (PCs).
[clipped a lot of stuff about how if you have ever EVER messed with a wizard's spellbook, a witch's familiar, etc; not even his death can save you]
So what you're saying is that any PC who has ever swiped the spellbook off an enemy should be relentlessly tormented for the rest of their career by a wizard who just KEEPS ressurecting no matter how often they manage to kill him.
Remember, what's good for the goose (NPCs) is good for the gander (PCs).
There's a big difference between swiping and destroying.
Really?!? Because honestly the whole shipwreck deal is a pretty often used plot hook...and one that the latest AP uses to start actually.If the DM ever does something like that in a game I'm playing, there are bigger issues than the attack on the spellbook.
If you plot hook the players unto a sinking ship and have no rules for making the book waterproof, then yes the book SHOULD get plot protection.
Using such a plot hook to start a campaign is not the same thing as what the original scenario I was responding to with this comment was suggesting, which was having it happen in the middle of a campaign without warning of either the event or the possible consequences. At the beginning of a campaign, the expectations have not been set and since most DM's at that point understand that specialized gear will have to be provided somehow, it is not as big of an issue as if it happened in the middle of a campaign when the players are already out in the middle of nowhere with no readily available resources. Also, such a scenario, even at the beginning of a campaign, is one that tends to elicit gripes from anyone who requires specialized gear, whether it be thivess tools, a holy symbol, or a spellbook, so wizards aren't the only ones potentially adversely effected.
I agree that permanently taking away a spellbook is probably not a good idea. But the nice thing about a book, especially when compared to a weapon, is that, as a whole, it is reasonably hard to completely destroy, but certain components (the pages) of it can be damaged enough to make some of them temporarily unusable without stretching the imagination too much. Thus, it is possible to make a wizard fall back on his backup spells without rendering him completely useless, just like it is to make a fighter fall back on a backup weapon. As a permanent situation, neither is good, but as a temporary challenge, each is equally valid.
As the original OP was about what would happen if a spellbook was about what would happen if such a situation came up, I have tried to restrict my responses to what could happen if the situation came up. The question of whether or not such a situation should come up is another topic entirely, and while I have not been entirely successful, I have tried to stick to the original question, leaving the second one to another thread. Personally though, I feel that if the PC's can figure out ways to deal with NPCs that involve stealing/destroying their stuff through whatever means they have available to them, than similarly appropriate measures taken against them by the DM is a perfectly valid tool, if used sparsely.
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What happens when a Witch's familiar gets wet ? Can you ... successfully commune your mystic pact with a WET CAT ? I mean ... c'mon. That's so totally unrealistic. Everybody knows that a soaked cat loses all his magical properties !
I personally would rule that attempting to commune with a wet cat would result in at minimum 1 hit point of damage. And possibly ripped clothes. Definately hurt feelings.
The issue of a witch's familiar is actually an interesting point. That is a true you have it or you don't scenario. Unlike wizards or fighters or any other class, they have no way to back up their "spellbook." Even if they can resummon it after a certain period, they are effectively limited to a certain number of spells per level unless they want to bleed money away, which seems to be a primary complaint with the wizard and his spellbook. And a familiar is a lot harder to protect than a spellbook made of leather.
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The issue of a witch's familiar is actually an interesting point. That is a true you have it or you don't scenario. Unlike wizards or fighters or any other class, they have no way to back up their "spellbook." Even if they can resummon it after a certain period, they are effectively limited to a certain number of spells per level unless they want to bleed money away, which seems to be a primary complaint with the wizard and his spellbook. And a familiar is a lot harder to protect than a spellbook made of leather.
The familiar (hitherto refered to as Kitty) is both harder to protect and easier. Easier, because Kitty can actually react on his own to threats against him. Harder, because it's a living creature that can actually be killed. Which is why I'd only use Kitty's ability to deliver touch spells to deliver buffs and curing type spells to allies, not try to use it to deliver debuffs or other attack spells to enemies.
I'd also tend to have Kitty be one of the more mobile choices. Flight is nice...although I will admit to a personal bias towards a black cat, just for the flavor. Plus, if we're outdoors, cat Kitty can climb up a tree to avoid the battle. Lacking trees...well, it's a cat, what the hell can't they climb?
Gotta admit, the thought of a multiclass druid/witch where your animal companion is your familar is interesting to me. Kitty grows up to be a pretty mean panther!
At any rate, I think the advantages of Kitty being able to act independentally when threatened outweight the disadvantages compared to a wizard's spellbook.
Throwing my hat into the ring late in the game, I know, but I have no problem with a Wizard's Spellbook(s) being targeted, anymore than I have the Melee getting hit with Will-Save or Disintergration beams on their beloved ancestral Whoop-Ass-Sticks, or the Rogue getting buried alive and taking massive damage, etc etc etc. Hell, if you aren't trying to take bites out of their power creep occasionally (mostly it's accidental like the Paladin picking up some pearls, only to find to his horror the next day they're actually the eggs of a Celestial Rust Monster, hilarity as the poor bastard tries to figure out if it's against his code to kill the little maggots with halos that are currently eating the Mithril Filagree off his Holy Avenger, or the Barbarian who winds up lawful due to trying on a Loincloth of Opposite Alignment and finds he actually likes being orderly. There was an episode of the 'New He-Man' cartoon [BLEEEEEGCH!] that had Skeletor wearing such an item, delivered and electric shock every time he was 'bad', haha, stole that and am waiting for a particularly evil game for me to fling that at the players!)
Wizards are, theoretically at least, the closest to 'Godlike' a Player can get. Hell, if the Spells already available aren't good enough, the Wizard can make his own, and more of them to boot.
By contrast, take away their Spellbook and they're little more than a very cranky librarian. ((I actually threw an NPC of that very description at the PCs, and they got a friend for life when they loaned him the Party Wizard's tomes, and then it got even better when they finally tracked down his Grimoires and gave them back. Nothing like an old man hugging your guys saying "Bless you, my dear sweet friends, bless you!" before he opens the Grimoires and starts pouring over his epic spells with your suddenly huge-eyed Wizard in tow.)) Sometimes a Wizard just can't get the time to scribe a new book, lacking the necessary funds/materials or other reasons such as being stuck in a deep dark pit without any light, food or water.
The point is that, if you are going to Target the Wizard's spellbook, do it early, but throw them a bone such as an overlooked wand from a previous prisoner hidden amongst the bones of aforementioned previous prisoner, or something similar. Enough so that, while crippled, the Wizard isn't completely neutered and has a LOT of motivation to get their stuff back.
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mostly it's accidental like the Paladin picking up some pearls, only to find to his horror the next day they're actually the eggs of a Celestial Rust Monster, hilarity as the poor bastard tries to figure out if it's against his code to kill the little maggots with halos that are currently eating the Mithril Filagree off his Holy Avenger
The best thing I've read in this thead to date. Hilarious.
If it was simply a magic book and nothing beyond that, it would just have a one-time cost befitting of a masterwork book (which it does). However, every time you scribe a spell into it, you're spending large amounts of money (even for a 1st-level spell, you're spending more money than an average commoner sees in a month). Where is this money going? Special inks and whatnot, right? You could easily say that the cost is simply an abstraction to keep game balance and that it's just as easily ruined as normal ink, but which fits the pseudo-realism better- spending a king's ransom on inks that have no built-in protection whatsoever and no wizard is more protected unless they specifically spend MORE money to do so, or to assume that the cost, as exhorbitant it is in a world of commoners and beggars, is at least partially responsible for making said inks resistant to anything that would be encountered on a normal basis?The super-ink can be however resiliant you want it to be, but if the page itself is ruined, then the resiliency of the ink doesn't really matter, does it?
I've once or twice dropped a book into water. If you grab it quickly, then it's will still be legible (although it swells up like a b!@!#, and never returns to normal). However, if it's left for more than just a minute or two, I'd probably rule that at least half of the pages are ruined. And if you leave it for 20 minutes or so, I'd call the whole thing a loss.
Maybe I just like a more realistic game than most, but the old "but I'm a wizard, you don't get to target my weaknesses" line doesn't hold any water with me. At least, not as much as a saturated spellbook.
Just a quick reply to say that I have had a number of RPG rule books (inc. 3.5 core books, nobilis, farscape and 7th sea) all fully submerged for a number of hours and been able to recover all of them to usable standards. it was a burst pipe right over the box they were stored in. It was a mess all round, but at least I can still turn the pages of my nobilis book.
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Just a quick reply to say that I have had a number of RPG rule books (inc. 3.5 core books, nobilis, farscape and 7th sea) all fully submerged for a number of hours and been able to recover all of them to usable standards. it was a burst pipe right over the box they were stored in. It was a mess all round, but at least I can still turn the pages of my nobilis book.
Yeah, the guy who keeps spouting about dropping his ebberon book in his tub. I would love to see him try to use his book after dropping it into a puddle of mud in the middle of a cow pasture. Between the mud, the water, the cow feces and urine, the bugs, and so on, I doubt he'd find the book very useful afterwards.
And let's not even get into what would happen to it if you dropped it into a sewage pond behind a trailer park. :) That's a pretty good real world equivalent of your average D&D sewer.
I'm sure there are more examples. However, this bring up a rather interesting strategy. Simply have the witch send her familiar to scratch all bad guys to death at one hp per round. Since it's effectively immortal, being protected by fiat, there's absolutely nothing the bad guy can do to prevent itself from slowly being whittled down to -CON.
There's a difference between having the spell book get wet and deliberately putting it in a blender.
....
I'm not saying don't target the spellbook. I'm saying, save targeting the spellbook for when it'll be exciting, entertaining, and overall improve the encounter/adventure (and I think most of the pro-wizard camp would agree with me).
I agree completely with this. Beating on the spellbook has got to fit into the story and help push the action.
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Wizards are, theoretically at least, the closest to 'Godlike' a Player can get. Hell, if the Spells already available aren't good enough, the Wizard can make his own, and more of them to boot.
By contrast, take away their Spellbook and they're little more than a very cranky librarian. ((I actually threw an NPC of that very description at the PCs, and they got a friend for life when they loaned him the Party Wizard's tomes, and then it got even better when they finally tracked down his Grimoires and gave them back. Nothing like an old man hugging your guys saying "Bless you, my dear sweet friends, bless you!" before he opens the Grimoires and starts pouring over his epic spells with your suddenly huge-eyed Wizard in tow.)) ...
Nice. I like that.
If it'll help sort things out and keep things civil...
The Creative Director says that soaking a spellbook won't ruin it. That's just not fair to the wizard.
[grumble]
Psh...I bet the creative director plays a wizard!
[/grumble]
Actually, the Creative Director usually plays clerics or bards.
I actually don't think wizards are NEARLY as overpowered and unstoppable as lots of folks seem to think.
LOL! Honestly, I don't either. :)
I think that if the wizard's bonded object and spellbook are somehow declared "off limits" then the following strategies should also be declared "off limits" (please note that this applies to attemps by bad guys to affect the PC AND by PCs to affect bad guys):
Sunder
Disarm
Rust Monsters
Witch Familiars (rendered effectively untouchable)I'm sure there are more examples. However, this bring up a rather interesting strategy. Simply have the witch send her familiar to scratch all bad guys to death at one hp per round. Since it's effectively immortal, being protected by fiat, there's absolutely nothing the bad guy can do to prevent itself from slowly being whittled down to -CON.
Oh look, more irrational strawmen from Kthulhu. My surpriseometer barely registers anything.
So you're saying it's perfectly acceptable for the BBEG to steal the PC wizard's book?Remember, what's good for the goose (NPCs) is good for the gander (PCs).There's a big difference between swiping and destroying.
As okay as it is to steal the fighter's ancestral beatdown stick, yes.
Defeating the villain and getting your spellbook back means the wizard isn't crippled or bankrupting himself with tedium over the next few months transcribing spells he already knows. Stealing the book back also works as does ransoming it back--Hey, Mr. lich, I'll trade you my spellbooks you stole for this phylactery you did a crappy job of hiding.
It's the difference between stubbing a toe and being crippled for months. People tend to be a lot more vindictive about the latter.
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If it'll help sort things out and keep things civil...
The Creative Director says that soaking a spellbook won't ruin it. That's just not fair to the wizard.
[grumble]
Psh...I bet the creative director plays a wizard!
[/grumble]
Actually, the Creative Director usually plays clerics or bards.
I actually don't think wizards are NEARLY as overpowered and unstoppable as lots of folks seem to think.
So now would be the time to hit you up for more things to protect a Bards instrument and a clerics divine focus ;)
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Know what? I'm finally sick of the whole argument. Yes, you can call my obviously and purposefully blatantly ridiculous constructions strawmen. They're made just to show how ridiculous it is when you logically extend the exceptions that you insist upon for wizards to even just a small subset of the other classes.
Some of you folks think that wizards make all the other classes obsolete? Fine. You bend over backwards to come up with situations where all wizards are constantly walking around with a dozen or so buffs or wards active 24-7? Fine. You ignore the limited number of spells per day that a wizard can actually cast, and insist that the wizard always has the right spell for any situation at any given time. Whatever. Do what you will.
I play Pathfinder. But you guys have fun playing your game...Wizards and Fodder.
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Really?!? Because honestly the whole shipwreck deal is a pretty often used plot hook...and one that the latest AP uses to start actually.If the DM ever does something like that in a game I'm playing, there are bigger issues than the attack on the spellbook.
If you plot hook the players unto a sinking ship and have no rules for making the book waterproof, then yes the book SHOULD get plot protection.Using such a plot hook to start a campaign is not the same thing as what the original scenario I was responding to with this comment was suggesting, which was having it happen in the middle of a campaign without warning of either the event or the possible consequences. At the beginning of a campaign, the expectations have not been set and since most DM's at that point understand that specialized gear will have to be provided somehow, it is not as big of an issue as if it happened in the middle of a campaign when the players are already out in the middle of nowhere with no readily available resources. Also, such a scenario, even at the beginning of a campaign, is one that tends to elicit gripes from anyone who requires specialized gear, whether it be thivess tools, a holy symbol, or a spellbook, so wizards aren't the only ones potentially adversely effected.
Umm you do know that lots of games use this trope in the middle of a campaign too right? It is a pretty famous trope and I honestly don't know why you think somebody is being a bad DM for using it. Because you know, the idea is that things like thieves tools and holy symbols and spell books ARE suppuse to get plot protection so the classes can still do their things on the island after all. It's taking those things away with well because I said so that is the bad thing...not the shipwreck you plot into the storyline.
Umm you do know that lots of games use this trope in the middle of a campaign too right? It is a pretty famous trope and I honestly don't know why you think somebody is being a bad DM for using it. Because you know, the idea is that things like thieves tools and holy symbols and spell books ARE suppuse to get plot protection so the classes can still do their things on the island after all. It's taking those things away with well because I said so that is the bad thing...not the shipwreck you plot into the storyline.
We'll just have to agree to disagree, because if you are going to use that kind of plot hook, and make certain items completely plot immune, than to me that just breaks the feel of the game, especially if later on you allow the PCs to steal or destroy similar items owned by the bad guys. It just breaks up the internal consistency too much, for me at least, to completely give such items when owned by PCs immunity to anything; targeting such things should not be easy, routine, or lead to the complete and permanent loss of said item, but the threat of the that possibility needs to be there, otherwise the characters have a tendency to behave stupidly, knowing there will be no consequences for it.
EDIT: That is probably the reason that while I love the concept of the wizard, and don't think its necessarily overpowered, it relies just a little too much on things like plot immunity and other frequently arbitrary DM tactics to keep one from being either overpowered or nothing more than a mere spectator. Maybe its just because until recently my schedule did not really allow me to play in with the same group consistently enough to build up the necessary communication channels.
Some of you folks think that wizards make all the other classes obsolete? Fine. You bend over backwards to come up with situations where all wizards are constantly walking around with a dozen or so buffs or wards active 24-7? Fine. You ignore the limited number of spells per day that a wizard can actually cast, and insist that the wizard always has the right spell for any situation at any given time. Whatever. Do what you will.
What does this have to do with the thread? Nothing, that's what. You're going on a steam-bursting-from-ears, spittle-flying, eyes-glowing rant here that is totally, 1000% off-topic. Seriously, dood, take a chill pill.
I play Pathfinder. But you guys have fun playing your game...Wizards and Fodder.
Ah, yes, the classic, "Anyone not agreeing with my off-topic rant is obviously playing a childishly-named entirely different game which is in no way the true game". 0/10 for originality and maturity.
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We'll just have to agree to disagree, because if you are going to use that kind of plot hook, and make certain items completely plot immune, than to me that just breaks the feel of the game, especially if later on you allow the PCs to steal or destroy similar items owned by the bad guys. It just breaks up the internal consistency too much, for me at least, to completely give such items when owned by PCs immunity to anything; targeting such things should not be easy, routine, or lead to the complete and permanent loss of said item, but the threat of the that possibility needs to be there, otherwise the characters have a tendency to behave stupidly, knowing there will be no consequences for it.
Umm you do know that lots of games use this trope in the middle of a campaign too right? It is a pretty famous trope and I honestly don't know why you think somebody is being a bad DM for using it. Because you know, the idea is that things like thieves tools and holy symbols and spell books ARE suppuse to get plot protection so the classes can still do their things on the island after all. It's taking those things away with well because I said so that is the bad thing...not the shipwreck you plot into the storyline.
Who says they are immune to stupidty? I'm saying they should be immune to DM fiat...not their own silly actions. The thieves tool should be in a backpack so the backpack is miraculously found on the beach. The holy symbol SHOULD be on the cleric so it STAYS on the cleric. The spellbook is water-resistent enough in whatever container it was in to have survived the shipwreck. The fighter's axe and chain mail had enough boiled linseed oil on it to not rust(which it should for sea voyages as salt water spray is pretty nasty on metal). The players don't have to tell me details, I assume that it'll be protected enough so that I can go on with my plotline of a shipwreck. Now if they get captured, yeah their stuff gets taken...maybe destroyed. If they take the spellbook out, grind it into the mud and jump on it, then yes the book is ruined. But I won't take the book away via DM fiat.
Using stuff like "it's raining, your spellbook got wet", "you left your sword at home - you didn't tell me you're going out with it" and "sorry, spell failed, you didin't declare that you have your holy symbol visible" cries "random screwing with players" to me.
I don't think anyone is trying to say that. What most people are trying to say is "You are currently in a situation that is at least partially of your own making, be prepared to deal with it". If the DM truly just randomly puts the players in such a situation without any input or possible reaction time whatsoever from the players, than I can see a limited plot immunity, otherwise, most of the time the players do have at least some options available to them before they get that far in over their head.
Who says they are immune to stupidty? I'm saying they should be immune to DM fiat...not their own silly actions. The thieves tool should be in a backpack so the backpack is miraculously found on the beach. The holy symbol SHOULD be on the cleric so it STAYS on the cleric. The spellbook is water-resistent enough in whatever container it was in to have survived the shipwreck. The fighter's axe and chain mail had enough boiled linseed oil on it to not rust(which it should for sea voyages as salt water spray is pretty nasty on metal). The players don't have to tell me details, I assume that it'll be protected enough so that I can go on with my plotline of a shipwreck. Now if they get captured, yeah their stuff gets taken...maybe...
And here seems to be the sticking point that has to be worked out in each group. Where does player stupidity end, and DM fiat begin? This will vary from group to group and possibly even from campaign to campaign within the same group. Therefore, I believe that such things can be targeted, but how often and to what degree goes beyond the original question, and can only be answered on a case by case basis and only by the people directly impacted by the decision. Personally, I would have no problem if I ever DM'ed to let players have such thing automatically protected, just so long as they extended the same privilege to the gear of the NPCs that they meet, including and especially the big bad guy at the end of the campaign.
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And here seems to be the sticking point that has to be worked out in each group. Where does player stupidity end, and DM fiat begin? This will vary from group to group and possibly even from campaign to campaign within the same group. Therefore, I believe that such things can be targeted, but how often and to what degree goes beyond the original question, and can only be answered on a case by case basis and only by the people directly impacted by the decision. Personally, I would have no problem if I ever DM'ed to let players have such thing automatically protected, just so long as they extended the same privilege to the gear of the NPCs that they meet, including and especially the big bad guy at the end of the campaign.
Player stupidity, having access to a spellbook bag that costs 5 sp and them not getting it. This is available IF you use some optional materials...but it should be pointed out to wizard players that such exists. Then fire away on wet spell books. DM fiat...no such item is available, you get on a ship that you MUST get on for the next part of the quest...it sink, you lose your spellbook. I have NO issues with targeting the book as long as there is a rules way to PREVENT it and that option is not taken. For example, if you tank your wisdom and you don't up perception and don't bother to set up magical wards, then yes a thief taking your book IS your fault.
Core rules has no ways to protect a regular spellbook from water, so with just core rules, using water to ruin a spellbook is DM fiat, pure and simple.
I applaud this player. He found himself in a bad situation, and he took steps to PREVENT his spellbook from damage. He didn't just rely on what has apparently become the new default 1st level wizard class ability: Spellbook Plot Immunity.I've put a wizard on a sinking ship in my games before. The player had his character run below deck, grab a chest, haul it up to the captain's quarters, threw his spellbook inside, and melted candle wax from the captain's chandelier into the seams and key hole. He then used it as a buoy as he swam out to sea. After several days, he found land.
I loved every minute of it.
Sadly, I suspect that some of the GMs in this thread, in the same situation, would simply turn to their clever player and shut them down for no good reason: "There's no time for you to sit there and slowly melt wax while the ship rapidly sinks around you. The water seeps into your unsealed chest and ruins your spellbook. You also cannot use it as a buoy because it is full of water. Start making swim checks with your 8 strength and we will see if you can make it to cannibal island."
I have actually seen GMs do things like that. Unsurprisingly, creativity is dead in those kinds of campaigns.
Core rules has no ways to protect a regular spellbook from water, so with just core rules, using water to ruin a spellbook is DM fiat, pure and simple.
Rules on the environment are in the core rulebooks, however, even if the interaction between environment and objects are not. While it does require some DM judgment calls, and I agree that options to avoid damage should be available if damage is a real possibility, what I have run into far too many times is players who get upset when their gear is targeted and then five minutes later are plotting on how to accomplish the exact same thing to the npc's gear.
Also, I probably would not give the book water damage directly, but damage from salt or banging into other debris in the water is capable of providing a minor setback without shutting them down entirely. Even just saying the swelling of a particular page is enough to disturb the delicate writing and that page is effectively unusable until it dries can do that. It makes the player get creative, but doesn't actually require the player to do anything except wait.
In any case, the exact details of what can be done and when it is appropriate to be done are going to vary. But the basic idea that such objects are capable of being targeted at some point by someone or something seems sound to me, and whatever decision is reached applies to everyone in the world equally, except for the hopefully very rare need for a DM to come up with an extreme plot hook.
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I applaud this player. He found himself in a bad situation, and he took steps to PREVENT his spellbook from damage. He didn't just rely on what has apparently become the new default 1st level wizard class ability: Spellbook Plot Immunity.I've put a wizard on a sinking ship in my games before. The player had his character run below deck, grab a chest, haul it up to the captain's quarters, threw his spellbook inside, and melted candle wax from the captain's chandelier into the seams and key hole. He then used it as a buoy as he swam out to sea. After several days, he found land.
I loved every minute of it.
Sadly, I suspect that some of the GMs in this thread, in the same situation, would simply turn to their clever player and shut them down for no good reason: "There's no time for you to sit there and slowly melt wax while the ship rapidly sinks around you. The water seeps into your unsealed chest and ruins your spellbook. You also cannot use it as a buoy because it is full of water. Start making swim checks with your 8 strength and we will see if you can make it to cannibal island."
I have actually seen GMs do things like that. Unsurprisingly, creativity is dead in those kinds of campaigns.
Oh missed your story somehow...nicely done on the player's part. However, unlike kthulu, I would not have punished my players if they weren't so quick on their feet either. But well done there RD (I know this happens oh so rarely ;) ).
Just to say to keep it in the minds of everyone in this long thread: if you have a GM that's determined to screw over the players, you can fight back. There's not much you can do at lower levels, so you will have to prioritize your gold spending. You'll also have to give up a min/max'ed Wizard, but:
1.) Blessed Books
2.) Traveling Spellbooks (APG) divided up among several different places, in other players' backpacks, etc. The same goes with storing wands in other players' backpacks.
3.) Glove of Storing
4.) Scrolls in overpacked scroll cases (if the GM allows studying scrolls instead of studying a spellbook). Don't forget to give other players scrolls too.
5.) Pearls of Power
6.) Rings of Spell Storing (minor/regular/major)
7.) Spell Mastery, Spell Mastery, Spell Mastery (taken multiple times - I'd take one every 4th level to memorize your best spells)
We're beatin' a dead horse here. Let's focus on solutions, not complaining.
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Core rules has no ways to protect a regular spellbook from water, so with just core rules, using water to ruin a spellbook is DM fiat, pure and simple.Rules on the environment are in the core rulebooks, however, even if the interaction between environment and objects are not. While it does require some DM judgment calls, and I agree that options to avoid damage should be available if damage is a real possibility, what I have run into far too many times is players who get upset when their gear is targeted and then five minutes later are plotting on how to accomplish the exact same thing to the npc's gear.
The point isn't that there are rules for environment, the point is the lack of rules that lets you protect a spellbook from said environments. The players have NO options, which is what makes it DM fiat. As for players plotting...well you just did say you targeted their gear so why can't they do turn about?
As for players plotting...well you just did say you targeted their gear so why can't they do turn about?
It all depends on how they took their gear getting targeted. If they found a way to play along instead of automatically resorting to complaining, then I have no problem with them doing the same back. It's only if they treat their gear as immune, but everyone else's as fair game, that I really have issues.
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As for players plotting...well you just did say you targeted their gear so why can't they do turn about?It all depends on how they took their gear getting targeted. If they found a way to play along instead of automatically resorting to complaining, then I have no problem with them doing the same back. It's only if they treat their gear as immune, but everyone else's as fair game, that I really have issues.
I don't see that at all. YOU just zapped their gear...so now they are mad so they plot to do the same thing YOU just did. Now if they zap NPC gear with glee and THEN complain when the same happens to them, then it's the playering thinking they are immune and everyone else is fair game.
Know what? I'm finally sick of the whole argument. Yes, you can call my obviously and purposefully blatantly ridiculous constructions strawmen. They're made just to show how ridiculous it is when you logically extend the exceptions that you insist upon for wizards to even just a small subset of the other classes.
Reductio ad absurdum can either be a valid argument or a straw man. You aren't even bothering to aim near the first one.
Turn about is NOT fair play where gear is concerned. NPCs have all the resources they need since they are a GM element/tool. They are not unduly effected by targeting the PCs gear.
If, however, the PCs target the NPC's gear, they lose out on valuable treasure and become weaker for it (not to mention that the attacks made against equipment only serve to prolong the NPC's life).
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Turn about is NOT fair play where gear is concerned. NPCs have all the resources they need since they are a GM element/tool. They are not unduly effected by targeting the PCs gear.
If, however, the PCs target the NPC's gear, they lose out on valuable treasure and become weaker for it (not to mention that the attacks made against equipment only serve to prolong the NPC's life).
Well that is true too. The old MDJ was a DM only spell for that exact reason after all. Hey two agreements in one thread...it's...odd.
So when you destroy the NPC's gear, you capture them alive and force them to take you to their stash.
PC's aren't the only ones with extra gear and gold at their hideout/base/room at the inn...