When spellbooks get wet


Rules Questions

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Anguish wrote:

But here's why: we don't micromanage item damage for anyone else. Where's the oil for sword-wielders to keep their weapon protected from rust? Where's the whetstone to keep it sharp? Where indeed is the sheath to keep it from hacking your leg off while you walk?

I get it that we're talking about a book. Thing is that they're magical writings. As soon as that happens I'll happily hand-wave simple conventional damage that seems realistic.

1. I would gladly do the same for anyone else who exposed to their equipment to hostile elements. The simple fact is that a spellbook, whether it be paper or leather or some variant thereof, tends to be vulnerable to more elements than many other common materials, therefore exposure to the elements is really a bad idea. And rust on a sword is something I would expect most fighters to have to take basic and simple measures against just as much as the waterproofing of a book is expected.

2. You don't have to effect the magical writings to damage the book, which is not magical. Damaging the physical pages, even if all it does is swell the pages, disrupting the bond between the ink and the page, is still enough to disrupt the magic. The book should of course get some kind of save to prevent this damage from being serious, which since it is a magical item [edit: or rather the ink is a magical item, and would resist changes imposed upon it] should be pretty decent, and only the pages directly exposed to the damage in question should be considered to take damage serious enough to even require a save. But all the above caveats does not equate to the same thing that because the writing is magical, the book is immune to damage; it just means that it is really, really, really hard to do so, and should only be brought up in extreme circumstances.


stringburka wrote:
Note that there is NO RAW WHATSOEVER that supports it being a magical book or magical writing. Exceptional, yes, but not magical. It can be assumed, but there's no more going for that than going for gemstones in a noble's outfit to be magical. Sure, they might be, but there's nothing indicating it.

No, but it used to be in 1E and 2E, and possibly in 3E as well (needs quotation). Perhaps this is still lingering in people's vestigial memory of D&D and causes confusion.

But I'm pretty sure you are right about the fact that magical writings are mundane in nature in PF rpg, I looked for info that would tell otherwise the other day and couldn't find anything.

Scrolls are indeed magic items however and therefore is always allowed a saving throw to be destroyed. PFsrd also indicates that magic items continue to work even when damaged; they only cease to work when destroyed. However, bookworms suggests that by RAW, damaging the support material of a written spell (including scrolls) destroys the spell inscribed on it.

'findel

Liberty's Edge

Quote:

Ya gotta love how anytime anyone dares to suggest attacking a WIZARD'S weakness, they're called a dick and it's considered bad DMing.

Spam a fighter with will saves? Encouraged.

Come up with situations that call for a spell that the sorcerer doesn't know? Encouraged.

Put the paladin in a situation where he can either do a kamakazi run and die or end up falling? Encouraged.

But dare to screw with the board-appointed "win-button" called the wizard? F#@K NO! YOU'RE A HORRIBLE DM! YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!

Christ, why bother actually playing the game? If someone says "I think I'll make a wizard" at character creation, just declare them the goddamned winner.

I never said that the GM should "play to win against the PCs". But I've notices a trend in these forums, a rather disturbing one. People whine and complain about the vast gap in power between the casters (and especially the wizard) and the other classes. But they seem unwilling to actually admit that the wizard DOES have weaknesses. And if they do admitt it, they somehow rule that those weaknesses are "off limits".

And who ever said that I was targetting a wizard's spellbook because he did something to piss me off? If a wizard jumps into a large body of water without taking special preparations to protect his spellbook, then the GM had nothing to do with it...the wizard has nobody to blame but himself.

If you were to reread your statement, it would be very clear of the implication of an "Us vs. Them" mentality. Unless of course, your statement was meant as sarcasm. Sarcasm doesn't translate well into text, unfortunately. However, as I interpreted your words, without your clarification as to the context, I see them as "Us vs. Them".


Anguish wrote:
Took it through a waterfall? No effect. Dropped it off the side of a boat and had to wait until the next day to get your cleric to cast water breathing so you could rescue it? No effect.

Fascinating.

Shadow Lodge

Malagant wrote:
If you were to reread your statement, it would be very clear of the implication of an "Us vs. Them" mentality. Unless of course, your statement was meant as sarcasm. Sarcasm doesn't translate well into text, unfortunately. However, as I interpreted your words, without your clarification as to the context, I see them as "Us vs. Them".

Actually, it was meant as more as the GM saying "Bob decided to play a wizard. He wins! Jim, Luke, Fred, Sue, Kelly, you all didn't decide to play wizards. You all lose!"

Shadow Lodge

Anguish wrote:
I get it that we're talking about a book. Thing is that they're magical writings. As soon as that happens I'll happily hand-wave simple conventional damage that seems realistic.

I agree. The magical writing and the 100+ gp ink are VERY resistant to damage. Unfortunately, they're held on a page that is far far less resistant to damage.

Tome of Horrors, Revised wrote:


BOOKWORM
Hazard (CR 1/10)

The bookworm is a tiny, 1-inch long, gray, seemingly normal worm. This miniscule creature is the bane of scholars, wizards, and sages, for its primary source of food is the paper, wood, and leather that make up books. Bookworms cannot harm living creatures, but they burrow through wood, leather, rope, and paper very quickly. They ignore the hardness of such materials, and a burrowing bookworm deals 3 points of damage per round to dead wood, rope, paper, or leather. Bookworms are quick and agile (moving at 20 feet per round) and seek to avoid being seen. To this end, they can alter their body color to match that of their surroundings. (It takes a successful DC 20 Spot check to notice a bookworm that has changed its color.)

Scrolls are destroyed in a single round and any spells contained on it are destroyed as well. A spellbook loses one spell level per round that a bookworm spends burrowing into it. For example, a spellbook has 100 pages and can hold a maximum of 100 total spell levels (a spell takes up one page per spell level). Thus, it takes the bookworm 100 rounds (10 minutes) to completely destroy a full spellbook. If the same spellbook only had 20 spell levels in it (say five 1st-level spells, four 2nd-level spells, one 3rd-level spell, and one 4th-level spell), the bookworm would destroy the spellbook in 20 rounds (2 minutes). Multiple bookworms can destroy a spellbook much faster. Each bookworm burrowing through a book destroys one spell level per round. So, a full spellbook (100 spell levels) is completely destroyed by two

A typical lair (or brood) contains 10-40 bookworms. They are easily killed by attacks that deal damage over an area (such as fire or cold). Consider one worm killed for each point of damage dealt.

Credit
The Bookworm originally appeared in the First Edition Monster Manual II (© TSR/Wizards of the Coast, 1983) and is used by permission.

Copyright Notice
Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.

So, at the very least, in both 1E and 3E, neither spellbooks or scrolls were so inherently magical that a tiny little mundane non-magical worm couldn't munch away on them.


Kthulhu wrote:


Tome of Horrors, Revised wrote:


BOOKWORM
Hazard (CR 1/10)

The bookworm is a tiny, 1-inch long, gray, seemingly normal worm. This miniscule creature is the bane of scholars, wizards, and sages, for its primary source of food is the paper, wood, and leather that make up books. Bookworms cannot harm living creatures, but they burrow through wood, leather, rope, and paper very quickly. They ignore the hardness of such materials, and a burrowing bookworm deals 3 points of damage per round to dead wood, rope, paper, or leather. Bookworms are quick and agile (moving at 20 feet per round) and seek to avoid being seen. To this end, they can alter their body color to match that of their surroundings. (It takes a successful DC 20 Spot check to notice a bookworm that has changed its color.)

(emphasis mine)

Yeah, I've been using Bookworms as a RAW reference to. However, I'm more and more questioning the mundane nature of such worms. 3 points of damage per round is what a full-size human lumberjack deals to a tree with a hatchet (assuming 1st level commoner but still). Those guys a 1 inch long. This leads me to assume they are more than "yet another variety of vermin".

'findel

Shadow Lodge

Hell, if they have a magical ability, it's not their eating paper/wood/leather, it's the damn ability to move 20 feet per round. Holy hell, can that worm move!


Kthulhu wrote:
Bwang wrote:
The notion that a rain drop is going to destroy a book worth a king's ransom, one that MUST be lugged through such inhospitable places as a dragon's lair, is patently absurd.
Then it's a good thing that absolutely no one in this thread made such a claim.

per Wikipedia: (1) Sarcasm is “a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt.” (2) Exaggeration is a representation of something in an excessive manner. I apologize if I failed to make myself clear.

(1) A raindrop is made of Water.
(2) It is universaly accepted in this thread that RAW, a spellbook is destroyed by exposure to water, with no mention of any set amount of water, no reference to duration of exposure nor rate of said degradation of the unfortunate spellbook, implying (in the extreme, I grant) that ANY water coming in contact instantly destroys the spellbook.
(3) The afore mentioned raindrop instantly destroys a spellbook, as does a drop of sweat or even water vapor.
(4) In effect, EVERYONE, including myself, has 'made such a claim'.

RAW must always taken with a grain or more of salt. I agree with your statement of "There's also the fact that to include rules for absolutely every situation, the Core Rulebook would need to be so massive that it would undergo gravitational collapse, turning into a black hole." Hence the GM.

As stated earlier, the notion is patently absurd.


Bwang wrote:


(2) It is universaly accepted in this thread that RAW, a spellbook is destroyed by exposure to water, with no mention of any set amount of water, no reference to duration of exposure nor rate of said degradation of the unfortunate spellbook, implying (in the extreme, I grant) that ANY water coming in contact instantly destroys the spellbook.

I don't see anyone saying that personally. Yes, contact with water has potential to do damage, but most people are still willing to give the book its hardness, hp, and possibly a saving throw to defend itself, so most contact with water is going to cause either no damage or negligible damage. However, it is important to note the possibility of damage since extreme circumstances do occur, and in those circumstances, damage can very realistically do partial damage at the very least, and possibly even cause complete destruction.


I saw this thread and decided to run an experiment, I just took watercolour pencil (pencil designed to run when water is applied), wrote a few sentences on a wet newspaper, folded it over and pressed it firmly. Then I left it to soak in water for a couple of minutes. Next I dried it in the toaster oven before spreading it out again, and I was still able to read it.

Assuming your wizard writes in ink, and not watercolour, and doesn't run it through the washing machine, it should last a few decades, especially if he or she memorizes prestidigitation or mending on a daily basis.


sunshadow21 wrote:

I don't see anyone saying that personally. /QUOTE]Not my original observation within this thread, although I did lift the silliness for examination and ridicule: Death Quaker wrote: "Whoops, you splashed a few drops of water on your spellbook from the fountain, you can't cast spells,"

sunshadow21 wrote:
...contact with water has potential to do damage, but most people are still willing to give the book its hardness, hp, and possibly a saving throw to defend itself, so most contact with water is going to cause either no damage or negligible damage.

If you re-read my post, you will find that I was of that opinion and was opposed to the RAW rules.

Once again, I repeat: RAW must always taken with a grain or more of salt.


Can't this be avoided if the wizard kept his spellbook in a waterproof backpack and isn't that what it is normally put in when adventurering. You could probably still read it but I might rule its harder to read so you take an extra 15 minutes preparing spells before it gets repaired. Now if you bullrush a wizard off a ship into the ocean is another story and could end badly.


doctor_wu wrote:
Can't this be avoided if the wizard kept his spellbook in a waterproof backpack and isn't that what it is normally put in when adventurering. You could probably still read it but I might rule its harder to read so you take an extra 15 minutes preparing spells before it gets repaired. Now if you bullrush a wizard off a ship into the ocean is another story and could end badly.

There seems to be a disconnect between the 'Water does no harm' and the 'Water can do harm' camps.

Most of the 'Water does no harm' camp seems to be of the opinion that no amount of water can damage a spellbook. You can take it and dump it in pickle brine for 3 weeks, pull it out and use it.

Most of the 'Water can damage it' camp (myself included) seems to be of the opinion that rain doesn't bother it, nor will exposure to water for a short time (such as spilling ale on it, or falling in the river and getting out if it's not in a waterproof case), but that extended exposure (falling in the ocean or river and staying in there for a few days) is likely to damage it, if not actually destroy it.

Admittedly, there may be a very small camp of 'Any water exposure damages' but I haven't actually seen that in the thread that I noticed.


Dobneygrum wrote:

Assuming your wizard writes in ink, and not watercolour, and doesn't run it through the washing machine, it should last a few decades, especially if he or she memorizes prestidigitation or mending on a daily basis.

I think it's reasonable to assume that part of the cost of scribing a spell is coating the pages with a thin, water-proof, vermin-repelling coating of some sort of clear varnish. After all, spell scribing still costs a bundle, even in Pathfinder, and wizard's aren't dumb. I'd assume scrolls get the same treatment. If you can waterproof leather, parchment shouldn't be a problem.


mdt wrote:
doctor_wu wrote:
Can't this be avoided if the wizard kept his spellbook in a waterproof backpack and isn't that what it is normally put in when adventurering. You could probably still read it but I might rule its harder to read so you take an extra 15 minutes preparing spells before it gets repaired. Now if you bullrush a wizard off a ship into the ocean is another story and could end badly.

There seems to be a disconnect between the 'Water does no harm' and the 'Water can do harm' camps.

Most of the 'Water does no harm' camp seems to be of the opinion that no amount of water can damage a spellbook. You can take it and dump it in pickle brine for 3 weeks, pull it out and use it.

Most of the 'Water can damage it' camp (myself included) seems to be of the opinion that rain doesn't bother it, nor will exposure to water for a short time (such as spilling ale on it, or falling in the river and getting out if it's not in a waterproof case), but that extended exposure (falling in the ocean or river and staying in there for a few days) is likely to damage it, if not actually destroy it.

Admittedly, there may be a very small camp of 'Any water exposure damages' but I haven't actually seen that in the thread that I noticed.

Okay put that way, I agree. If a wizard in my game was so careless with his book that he let it fall into the ocean... without having it protected in a bag... and didn't immediately risk life and limb to get it back... I'd probably rule that it had been... who am I kidding? I still wouldn't claim it had been damaged by water.

I would have a shark eat it.


Dobneygrum wrote:


Okay put that way, I agree. If a wizard in my game was so careless with his book that he let it fall into the ocean... without having it protected in a bag... and didn't immediately risk life and limb to get it back... I'd probably rule that it had been... who am I kidding? I still wouldn't claim it had been damaged by water.

I would have a shark eat it.

LOL

This actually did come up in a game I ran. Someone was in the ocean for 2 days (shipwreck) banging around on debris and washed up on shore.

They found their backpack (lucky them), and then we rolled to see if the spellbook was damaged (1st level character, couldn't afford a waterproof case for the book). It was, and I rolled a save for the book (open ended). It got a 16 for it's save, so I ruled it was damaged, but a few spells were readable. One of them wasn't Mend unfortunately. However, the player came up with the idea of using his bonded weapon (which he'd managed to hang on to) to cast MEND on the page with MEND on it (the spell was there, but unreadable). It was a novel enough idea I allowed it. Next morning, he memorized MEND and proceeded to cast it on each page of the book over the next 3-4 days, restoring his spellbook to full.


mdt wrote:


LOL

This actually did come up in a game I ran. Someone was in the ocean for 2 days (shipwreck) banging around on debris and washed up on shore.

They found their backpack (lucky them), and then we rolled to see if the spellbook was damaged (1st level character, couldn't afford a waterproof case for the book). It was, and I rolled a save for the book (open ended). It got a 16 for it's save, so I ruled it was damaged, but a few spells were readable. One of them wasn't Mend unfortunately. However, the player came up with the idea of using his bonded weapon (which he'd managed to hang on to) to cast MEND on the page with MEND on it (the spell was there, but unreadable). It was a novel enough idea I allowed it. Next morning, he memorized MEND and proceeded to cast it on each page of the book over the next 3-4 days, restoring his spellbook to full.

I like the bonded weapon idea.

Yeah, that makes sense that the book would be damaged. In that case it would be a little like it being run through a washing machine.


Helic wrote:
Dobneygrum wrote:

Assuming your wizard writes in ink, and not watercolour, and doesn't run it through the washing machine, it should last a few decades, especially if he or she memorizes prestidigitation or mending on a daily basis.

I think it's reasonable to assume that part of the cost of scribing a spell is coating the pages with a thin, water-proof, vermin-repelling coating of some sort of clear varnish. After all, spell scribing still costs a bundle, even in Pathfinder, and wizard's aren't dumb. I'd assume scrolls get the same treatment. If you can waterproof leather, parchment shouldn't be a problem.

It makes sense that it would, but I've never heard someone playing a wizard actually say that they wanted to do it.

I know if that if a book was my key using fabulous power I would laminate it.

If a player ever mentioned wanting to protect it, then I would certainly include that in the price of the spell inscribing. Especially the higher level spells.


I haven't read through the entire thread so someone may have said this already. I believe Blood and Tome had some rules for protecting spell books. If not I know Magic of Faerun does. There are rules for special types of pages that are weather resistant as well as types of book satchels that are water or fire resistant. You should be able to talk to your GM and figure something out, or come up with something if you are the GM. But if you really need some pre-made mechanics Magic of Faerun definitely has them. Blood and Tome and Magic of Faerun are both paperback books. I believe B&T is 3.0 while MoF is 3.5 but I am not 100% sure about that.


stringburka wrote:
Note that there is NO RAW WHATSOEVER that supports it being a magical book or magical writing. Exceptional, yes, but not magical. It can be assumed, but there's no more going for that than going for gemstones in a noble's outfit to be magical. Sure, they might be, but there's nothing indicating it.

Other than core rulebook page 218 having all the spellbook mechanics in a section specifically titled "Arcane Magical Writings"... other than that, yeah. The phrase "magical writing" comes up a grand total of <not zero> times within that section.

Shadow Lodge

God Wizard

School: Universal; Level: Wizard 0
Casting Time: 1 Immediate Action
Components: None
Range: Unlimited
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None; Spell Resistance: No

Your enemies all die, and all harmful effects are removed from you. Furthermore, you get to reach across the table, slap the GM, and state "I'm a WIZARD, b&~@+! Don't try that crappy 'bad guys' stuff with me! Now gimme my treasure. I want it to be four spellbooks full of any spells I don't already know, and a bunch of wish scrolls....NOW B!#$+!!!"


Dobneygrum wrote:
mdt wrote:


LOL

This actually did come up in a game I ran. Someone was in the ocean for 2 days (shipwreck) banging around on debris and washed up on shore.

They found their backpack (lucky them), and then we rolled to see if the spellbook was damaged (1st level character, couldn't afford a waterproof case for the book). It was, and I rolled a save for the book (open ended). It got a 16 for it's save, so I ruled it was damaged, but a few spells were readable. One of them wasn't Mend unfortunately. However, the player came up with the idea of using his bonded weapon (which he'd managed to hang on to) to cast MEND on the page with MEND on it (the spell was there, but unreadable). It was a novel enough idea I allowed it. Next morning, he memorized MEND and proceeded to cast it on each page of the book over the next 3-4 days, restoring his spellbook to full.

I like the bonded weapon idea.

Yeah, that makes sense that the book would be damaged. In that case it would be a little like it being run through a washing machine.

A washing machine? Maybe like the bottom of a gentle brook. Unless it was staked to the shore and was being repeatedly hit by waves, it would be nothing like being in a washing machine.


Kthulhu wrote:

God Wizard

School: Universal; Level: Wizard 0
Casting Time: 1 Immediate Action
Components: None
Range: Unlimited
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None; Spell Resistance: No

Your enemies all die, and all harmful effects are removed from you. Furthermore, you get to reach across the table, slap the GM, and state "I'm a WIZARD, b%@&&! Don't try that crappy 'bad guys' stuff with me! Now gimme my treasure. I want it to be four spellbooks full of any spells I don't already know, and a bunch of wish scrolls....NOW b%@&&!!!"

"Brb, sundering the Fighter's +2 Flaming Spiked Chain."

Scarab Sages

Anguish wrote:
...we don't micromanage item damage for anyone else. Where's the oil for sword-wielders to keep their weapon protected from rust? Where's the whetstone to keep it sharp? Where indeed is the sheath to keep it from hacking your leg off while you walk?

Thing is; a lot of players do buy that stuff, and write it on their equipment lists.

You ask 'Where is it?'
Try here.
Maybe the GM will ask about it, maybe he won't. But it's there, as insurance, just in case.

Why should Freako the Melonhead get a free pass?


There seems to be a pretty big divide here over how fragile the spell books are how much is the dm targeting them and how much "just happens"

The folks like myself that say that a spellbook is fairly sturdy. Its a high quality book with expensive ink and premium leather pages. It should hold up better than a gaming book, which can survive dunking in the tub and be returned to more or less working condition with even mundane means. (it was a 7th sea book, reading it in the tub was thematic)

Should mundane means fail, spells like prestidigitation, mend, and make whole exist to fix soiled, ruined and damaged items.

There are no rules for burning or harming an item the character is carrying in their backpack. there is no rule for damaging carried items, especially one inside another item such as a backpack. I have no idea why people assume that wizards are walking around with the spell book out in the open.

It seems absurd to assume that the spell book is easily damaged, that your player should know that its easily damaged, and that the player should be punished for not spending most of his downtime re copying his spellbook to leave it in a less secure location. (any location he's not standing is by definition not as secure as on his person) -The same DM's that want to damage the spellbooks are the same ones who don't want to have any downtime so the wizard might make a copy or use his item creation feats)

After level 5- the level where a wizard might be able to reasonably afford keeping 2 copies- the question is probably moot once they pick up a bag of holding or hewards handy haversack. These are air tight extra dimensional spaces. Toss a character underwater if you want, the bag should keep it dry as long as its closed.

It seems to me that if those assumptions are being circumvented, that it is in fact the DM who is going after the wizard, or the wizards player for choosing to be a wizard. That's a situation that shouldn't be occurring, that's one player at a table being a ******* to another.

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Here, look at this:

PF Core Rules, p. 531 wrote:

Unguent of Timelessness

Aura faint transmutation; CL 3rd

Slot —; Price 150 gp; Weight —
DESCRIPTION

When applied to any matter that was once alive, such as wood, paper, or a dead body, this ointment allows that substance to resist the passage of time. Each year of actual time affects the substance as if only a day had passed. The coated object gains a +1 resistance bonus on all saving throws. The unguent never wears off, although it can be magically removed (by dispelling the effect, for instance). One flask contains enough material to coat eight Medium or smaller objects. A Large object counts as two Medium objects, and a Huge object counts as four Medium objects.
CONSTRUCTION

Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, gentle repose; Cost 75 gp

That stuff is absurdly cheap, and moreover well within the budget of even a 1st level wizard. Just keep a flask with your spellbook. When you write a new page, use a drop to seal it. It's basically magical Scotch Guard. Six hours and five minutes of exposure to moisture or indeed any other inimical environment counts as one minute following the formula of one year being one day.

Useful for other stuff too. The villain takes the wizard's spellbook and tosses it on the fire, cackling and doing his evil villain speech while the bound and gagged wizard squirms. Now, while a spellbook will burn, it's not made of flashpaper so it's going to take a while in this hostile environment for it to reach the smoke point. Once it does, it starts burning merrily, like an eldrich Yule log. But coated with Unguent of Timelessness? It's going to take 365 times as long. The villain may be prepared to be doing his villain speech for five minutes or so, but the spellbook sitting there untouched for hours?

One should also consider that even without Unguent of Timelessness, old-fashioned books like that were made with wraparound bindings, slipcases and a number of other things to protect the pages. Wrapped in oiled leather and preserved with beeswax? Not a problem.

Also, there's an easy solution for the bookworms: arsenic. Museums used to soak their bug-edible curios in the stuff. Yes, it's bad for you and whatnot, but in a land with Neutralize Poison, poisoning your spellbook with an ingested poison is a safe bet unless you're the type who licks their fingers to turn the pages.

Grand Lodge

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

Here, look at this:

PF Core Rules, p. 531 wrote:

Unguent of Timelessness

Aura faint transmutation; CL 3rd

Slot —; Price 150 gp; Weight —
DESCRIPTION

When applied to any matter that was once alive, such as wood, paper, or a dead body, this ointment allows that substance to resist the passage of time. Each year of actual time affects the substance as if only a day had passed. The coated object gains a +1 resistance bonus on all saving throws. The unguent never wears off, although it can be magically removed (by dispelling the effect, for instance). One flask contains enough material to coat eight Medium or smaller objects. A Large object counts as two Medium objects, and a Huge object counts as four Medium objects.
CONSTRUCTION

Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, gentle repose; Cost 75 gp

That stuff is absurdly cheap, and moreover well within the budget of even a 1st level wizard. Just keep a flask with your spellbook. When you write a new page, use a drop to seal it. It's basically magical Scotch Guard. Six hours and five minutes of exposure to moisture or indeed any other inimical environment counts as one minute following the formula of one year being one day.

Useful for other stuff too. The villain takes the wizard's spellbook and tosses it on the fire, cackling and doing his evil villain speech while the bound and gagged wizard squirms. Now, while a spellbook will burn, it's not made of flashpaper so it's going to take a while in this hostile environment for it to reach the smoke point. Once it does, it starts burning merrily, like an eldrich Yule log. But coated with Unguent of Timelessness? It's going to take 365 times as long. The villain may be prepared to be doing his villain speech for five minutes or so, but the spellbook sitting there untouched for hours?

Except of course, the ungent doesn't actually protect the spellbook other then from age. Which maybe ONLY a factor if your an elf. The fire still does the damage at the normal pace.

Shadow Lodge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
It seems to me that if those assumptions are being circumvented, that it is in fact the DM who is going after the wizard, or the wizards player for choosing to be a wizard. That's a situation that shouldn't be occurring, that's one player at a table being a ******* to another.

Whereas I think that which class a player chooses at character creations shouldn't have any bearing on the "s#!t happens" factor that applies to them.

GM: ...and the rust monster eats your armor.
Fighter: Such is the life of an adventurer.

GM: ...and a bookworm has eaten several spells out of your spellbook.
Wizard Player: WHAT!!! SCREW YOU!!! YOU SUCK AS A DM!!! I QUIT!!! I'M PLAYING A WIZARD, GODDAMN IT! *slaps the GM* I'm a WIZARD, b%@&&! Don't try that crappy 'monster' stuff with me! Now gimme my treasure. I want it to be four spellbooks full of any spells I don't already know, and a bunch of wish scrolls....NOW b%@&&!!!


Quote:

Whereas I think that which class a player chooses at character creations shouldn't have any bearing on the "s#!t happens" factor that applies to them.

People seem to be LOOKING FOR stuff to happen to the wizard because they dislike the idea that the class is mechanically better than all of the others, and are looking to ruin the classes primary asset with things adventurers go through every day (fireballs, water, etc)

Quote:

GM: ...and a bookworm has eaten several spells out of your spellbook.

Wizard Player: WHAT!!! SCREW YOU!!! YOU SUCK AS A DM!!! I QUIT!!! I'M PLAYING A WIZARD, GODDAMN IT! *slaps the GM* I'm a WIZARD, b%@&&! Don't try that crappy 'monster' stuff with me! Now gimme my treasure. I want it to be four spellbooks full of any spells I don't already know, and a bunch of wish scrolls....NOW b%@&&!!!

A position no one is taking. Taking a few spells out of the book, provided you gave everyone a check to notice and recognize the worm, and the worm has some legitimate way to get into the pack is fine. (i don't think a worm could get into someone else's bag of holding.) Taking a few spells is the equivalent to taking a fighters favorite weapon. Taking the entire book is equivalent to taking ALL of the fighters abilities.

Contributor

Kthulhu wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
It seems to me that if those assumptions are being circumvented, that it is in fact the DM who is going after the wizard, or the wizards player for choosing to be a wizard. That's a situation that shouldn't be occurring, that's one player at a table being a ******* to another.

Whereas I think that which class a player chooses at character creations shouldn't have any bearing on the "s#!t happens" factor that applies to them.

GM: ...and the rust monster eats your armor.
Fighter: Such is the life of an adventurer.

GM: ...and a bookworm has eaten several spells out of your spellbook.
Wizard Player: WHAT!!! SCREW YOU!!! YOU SUCK AS A DM!!! I QUIT!!! I'M PLAYING A WIZARD, GODDAMN IT! *slaps the GM* I'm a WIZARD, b%@&&! Don't try that crappy 'monster' stuff with me! Now gimme my treasure. I want it to be four spellbooks full of any spells I don't already know, and a bunch of wish scrolls....NOW b%@&&!!!

More like "Fine, but if those same spells have been eaten out of my back-up spellbook back at the wizards' guild and every magic item shoppe in the country is out of scrolls of those spells and are unable to ever get them back in stock, I'm declaring it a 'bookworm ex machina' specifically sent by the GM to screw with me."

Shadow Lodge

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
More like "Fine, but if those same spells have been eaten out of my back-up spellbook back at the wizards' guild and every magic item shoppe in the country is out of scrolls of those spells and are unable to ever get them back in stock, I'm declaring it a 'bookworm ex machina' specifically sent by the GM to screw with me."

1. Back-up spellbook - Nope, it should be fine.

2. What's a magic shop?


Kthulhu wrote:
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
More like "Fine, but if those same spells have been eaten out of my back-up spellbook back at the wizards' guild and every magic item shoppe in the country is out of scrolls of those spells and are unable to ever get them back in stock, I'm declaring it a 'bookworm ex machina' specifically sent by the GM to screw with me."
2. What's a magic shop?

something the default setting has, at least in the larger cities.

In pathfinder you are able to "rent" a spell book to copy spells off of someone , the typical fee is half the cost of scribing.

Scarab Sages

I've got to side with the folks that say water has the potential to damage spellbooks, although I would personally rule at least one turn of total immersion before severe damage occurs due to the difference between paper and parchment. A poster above mentioned a waterproof bag in the Adventurer's Armory to support that things like spellbooks could be damaged. There is another source that mentions waterproofing, and at least for Pathfinder Society players (which is my main Pathfinder gaming) it is in a core assumption source. Pg. 17 of Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secrets has a niffy spell called book ward. This is a 2nd level spell for bard,cleric & wiz/sorc with a duration of 1 day/level. The spell acts like protection from energy (from fire or acid only)and the item is also completely waterproof. Two different sources mention something to protect books from water, so I think that is a strong implication stopping just short of certainty that they can be damaged by water. The damage is a GM call and like any GM call, letting your player's know roughly what you have in mind is a welcome courtesy.


Quote:
A poster above mentioned a waterproof bag in the Adventurer's Armory to support that things like spellbooks could be damaged. There is another source that mentions waterproofing, and at least for Pathfinder Society players (which is my main Pathfinder gaming) it is in a core assumption source. Pg. 17 of Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secrets

If you're going to use those as a source of implied rules, you have an obligation to point out the availability of those items to your players, and you'd have to have a very good reason for not warning the wizard's player about something that the wizard should know: that a backpack is insufficient protection.

Contributor

A Bag of Holding type 1 or a Handy Haversack are easily within the price range of most wizards after a few levels and should work as waterproof casing for spellbooks due to the items putting the books on another plane of existence. Unless the GM declares that water automatically seeps in while underwater, in which case breaking a packet of Dust of Dryness inside the bag should work as a desiccant.

Honestly, though, a lot of this is just going out of the way to screw one class of character. When you dunk the party in the ocean, does the GM make sure to have the bard's lute fall apart due to the water warping the wood, swelling the strings, and dissolving the hide glue? Does every link of the fighter's chainmail rust and corrode once they get out of the water because it was highly unlikely they quickly found a freshwater spring and a fire to dry it off in front of? Does the rogue with the garish colored leather armor find himself dyed the same color due to the fact that salt is a mordant and just as it can be used to fix dye, it can also unfix dye, so any colored leather will stain your skin if you wear it into the ocean? Ditto with the sorcerer and those gaudy silks? If the cleric loses his holy symbol, is he immediately able to fashion a suitable replacement despite having no ranks in any appropriate craft and nothing to work with except a dead crab?

If you're not doing all the little minutiae of what would happen if you actually went swimming with all your gear, you're just going out of your way to hose one character while handwaving away even the slightest possible inconvenience for all the other classes.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
Kthulhu wrote:

*clip*

If we go completely and utterly by the RAW, with no regard for common sense, a brick that falls on your head randomly bypasses DR, while a brick that's thrown at you by an angry orc does not.

*clip*

Hmmm... seen that somewhere. ;)


Kthulhu wrote:
Hell, if they have a magical ability, it's not their eating paper/wood/leather, it's the damn ability to move 20 feet per round. Holy hell, can that worm move!

That reminds me of the .303 Bookworm...

Quote:


.303 Bookworm
From Discworld & Pratchett Wiki
A small creature that has evolved in the highly magically charged environment of the Unseen University. Because magical books are often dangerous, the .303 bookworm has evolved to eat books at incredibly high speeds. It can often be found shooting out of books, ricocheting off the opposite wall. This presumes that unlike other maggots, it has an incredibly hard carapace, as a normal pupated lifeform at those speeds would just go "splat", which means it misses out on the next stage of its personal development. (...)

Shadow Lodge

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Lokie wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:

*clip*

If we go completely and utterly by the RAW, with no regard for common sense, a brick that falls on your head randomly bypasses DR, while a brick that's thrown at you by an angry orc does not.

*clip*

Hmmm... seen that somewhere. ;)

What can I say. Your example is pretty much the perfect example of the frequent disconnect between RAW and common sense. Ironically, as the system has become more and more codified, such examples crop up more and more.

Shadow Lodge

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Honestly, though, a lot of this is just going out of the way to screw one class of character.

Perhaps, but IIRC, this thread is the spinoff of another spinoff thread. And what it all leads back to is the sense of entitlement that people have for wizard characters to be immune to "s#!t happens".


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

*Phew* finally caught up...

Someone mentioned at one point about spellbooks made of different materials. Forgotten Realms as a setting was full of such examples. Ed Greenwood firmly believed that a spellbook was vulnerable. Wizards had "Greatbooks" that they kept back at their towers and traveling spellbooks that they carried when adventuring.

I myself am in the "water damages a spellbook" camp. I'm not talking about a little moisture nor am I talking about a modern glossy paged PHB getting dropped in a tub. If a spellbook is immersed in salt water with no protection then it will be ruined. Total immersion in mud or otherwise filthy water will also ruin a unprotected spellbook. A unprotected spellbook left in a "Downpour" as listed in the weather section of the core book will also be ruined.

The expense in scribing spells into a spellbook comes from the rare materials needed for the ink. This does not automatically mean those materials are waterproof.

Leather absorbs water quite well. If anyone has worn leather gloves for any period of time you know they absorb water/sweat quite well. Once dried, the leather is never the same and is often stained and much less flexible which eventually leads to them failing. This example is of much thicker leather than thin parchment pages would have. Salt and leather do not mix well.

A wizard gets a free spellbook and free spells at every level that they can scribe for free. For 15gp a wizard can buy a backup spell book at first level. For 10gp a spell the wizard can copy his/her first level spells into the spare book.

Only when a Wizard player assumes they can purchase scrolls of every spell in the game and scribe them do we start seeing huge expenses.

PRD wrote:

Spell Mastery

You have mastered a small handful of spells, and can prepare these spells without referencing your spellbooks at all.

Prerequisite: 1st-level wizard

Benefit: Each time you take this feat, choose a number of spells that you already know equal to your Intelligence modifier. From that point on, you can prepare these spells without referring to a spellbook.

Normal: Without this feat, you must use a spellbook to prepare all your spells, except read magic.

This feat was made to help mitigate the loss of a spellbook.

Contributor

Lokie wrote:
Someone mentioned at one point about spellbooks made of different materials. Forgotten Realms as a setting was full of such examples. Ed Greenwood firmly believed that a spellbook was vulnerable. Wizards had "Greatbooks" that they kept back at their towers and traveling spellbooks that they carried when adventuring.

Oh, agreed. That's been the logic since 1st edition and it's a wonderful bit of flavor.

Unfortunately, it's predicated on having a certain sort of world, one where the wizard either has a secure little tower in the woods or the city or wherever that he can safely lock up while he goes adventuring or else a beloved mentor somewhere who owns a similar little tower and keeps the wizards great book safe while he's out adventuring.

If the quest suddenly goes across the world, the multiverse, etc.--and it does this before the wizard has teleport and the ability to skip home and pick up the backup traveling spellbook a canny wizard would stash--the wizard character is hosed if he loses his spellbook, and this is the GM's fault, even if the wizard did something stupid, because it's the GM and not the player who invents the quest.

If the GM wants a quest where the characters go gallivanting across the globe with no cozy home base to return to, he either has to stock the world with free or at least easily obtained replacement spellbooks or else come up with some wandwaving so that the wizard's trusty spellbook is preserved to keep the character playable. The villain may toss the damn thing into a volcano, but it will still snag on some sturdy bush sticking out from the crag just ten feet down. That's the way things work.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Lokie wrote:
Someone mentioned at one point about spellbooks made of different materials. Forgotten Realms as a setting was full of such examples. Ed Greenwood firmly believed that a spellbook was vulnerable. Wizards had "Greatbooks" that they kept back at their towers and traveling spellbooks that they carried when adventuring.

Oh, agreed. That's been the logic since 1st edition and it's a wonderful bit of flavor.

Unfortunately, it's predicated on having a certain sort of world, one where the wizard either has a secure little tower in the woods or the city or wherever that he can safely lock up while he goes adventuring or else a beloved mentor somewhere who owns a similar little tower and keeps the wizards great book safe while he's out adventuring.

*CLIP*

The basic Pathfinder rule-set now accounts for this thusly...

PRD wrote:

Cost of Living

An adventurer's primary source of income is treasure, and his primary purchases are tools and items he needs to continue adventuring—spell components, weapons, magic items, potions, and the like. Yet what about things like food? Rent? Taxes? Bribes? Idle purchases?

You can certainly handle these minor expenditures in detail during play, but tracking every time a PC pays for a room, buys water, or pays a gate tax can swiftly become obnoxious and tiresome. If you're not really into tracking these minor costs of living, you can choose to simply ignore these small payments. A more realistic and easier-to-use method is to have PCs pay a recurring cost of living tax. At the start of every game month, a PC must pay an amount of gold equal to the lifestyle bracket he wishes to live in—if he can't afford his desired bracket, he drops down to the first one he can afford.

Destitute (0 gp/month): The PC is homeless and lives in the wilderness or on the streets. A destitute character must track every purchase, and may need to resort to Survival checks or theft to feed himself.

Poor (3 gp/month): The PC lives in common rooms of taverns, with his parents, or in some other communal situation—this is the lifestyle of most untrained laborers and commoners. He need not track purchases of meals or taxes that cost 1 sp or less.

Average (10 gp/month): The PC lives in his own apartment, small house, or similar location—this is the lifestyle of most trained or skilled experts or warriors. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 1 gp or less from his home in 1d10 minutes, and need not track purchases of common meals or taxes that cost 1 gp or less.

Wealthy (100 gp/month): The PC has a sizable home or a nice suite of rooms in a fine inn. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 5 gp or less from his belongings in his home in 1d10 minutes, and need only track purchases of meals or taxes in excess of 10 gp.

Extravagant (1,000 gp/month): The PC lives in a mansion, castle, or other extravagant home—he might even own the building in question. This is the lifestyle of most aristocrats. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 25 gp or less from his belongings in his home in 1d10 minutes. He need only track purchases of meals or taxes in excess of 100 gp.

If the DM is going to be a "dick" and suddenly send a unprepared low level party tripping across the multi-verse, then its that DM's problem.

However, following the cost of living rules, the wizard can have a fairly secure location to store his/her greatbook and library/ laboratory. Offering to help the party rogue out with a few things in exchange for some traps to further secure his home is easy to manage.


Sorry about the "magical writing" comment. Quite embarrasing. What I meant to say was that there's nothing indicating the book or the inks are magical.

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:


If the quest suddenly goes across the world, the multiverse, etc.--and it does this before the wizard has teleport and the ability to skip home and pick up the backup traveling spellbook a canny wizard would stash--the wizard character is hosed if he loses his spellbook, and this is the GM's fault, even if the wizard did something stupid, because it's the GM and not the player who invents the quest.

On that, someone else than me who thinks Instant Summons should be more of a low-level spell (with maybe some other limitation such as only one active at a time)?

If that spell where located at level 2 with a fitting material component I wouldn't had been surprised.


The game last night ended with a query to the GM (me). What if I take as my Bonded Item a spellbook? Or a ring that is enchanted to be said spellbook? Or one of the High Elf style walking staffs?

The gist: Can a Bonded item be the spellbook?


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:


Honestly, though, a lot of this is just going out of the way to screw one class of character. When you dunk the party in the ocean, does the GM make sure to have the bard's lute fall apart due to the water warping the wood, swelling the strings, and dissolving the hide glue? Does every link of the fighter's chainmail rust and corrode once they get out of the water because it was highly unlikely they quickly found a freshwater spring and a fire to dry it off in front of? Does the rogue with the garish colored leather armor find himself dyed the same color due to the fact that salt is a mordant and just as it can be used to fix dye, it can also unfix dye, so any colored leather will stain your skin if you wear it into the ocean? Ditto with the sorcerer and those gaudy silks? If the cleric loses his holy symbol, is he immediately able to fashion a suitable replacement despite having no ranks in any appropriate craft and nothing to work with except a dead crab?

If you're not doing all the little minutiae of what would happen if you actually went swimming with all your gear, you're just going out of your way to hose one character while handwaving away even the slightest possible inconvenience for all the other classes.

Please don't speak for everyone.

In my games, I do indeed keep track of such things when something like falling in the ocean happens. I have everyone roll saving throws for their equipment. This represents a composite total of 'Damage by water, damage from getting smashed by waves in the storm, damage by getting smashed against rocks as you get to shore, chance of loss of item due to it falling out of pocket, chance of blah blah blah'. I also, gasp, assign full swimming penalties for heavy equipment and armor! Shocking I know! Most people just handwave that full plate mail the fighters in without giving the wizard a penalty for his robes (/sarcasm).

If a cleric loses his holy symbol in my game, and has no craft skills, then he's SOL until he finds someone to craft him another one. And yes, if the metal armor isn't magical (and they didn't strip it off to stay afloat) then I do indeed give them in game consequences for it being rusty after a while. Why would I penalize one class (wizard) and not another class (fighter)? Oh, I wouldn't. You however seem to think you have clairvoyance into my game? I think your clairvoyance is busted.


Bwang wrote:

The game last night ended with a query to the GM (me). What if I take as my Bonded Item a spellbook? Or a ring that is enchanted to be said spellbook? Or one of the High Elf style walking staffs?

The gist: Can a Bonded item be the spellbook?

I don't see why you couldn't take a spellbook as a bonded object, though it would be rather dangerous, since I'm pretty sure you have to be wearing or holding the bonded object for it be used.

On the subject as a whole, I love how people assume that a DM that goes after a spellbook will leave everyone else's equipment alone. This has not been the case in any game I've seen equipment (any equipment) targeted; if one type of equipment gets targetted, than everything is fair game under the right circumstances. And several posters in recent posts made some good points; the salt, mud, and other contiminants found in water as well as the motion of the water, along with all the other debris in it, will be the biggest threat to a book. The water itself is relatively harmless, but as a carrier for a whole lot of other stuff, it is a dangerous environment.

EDIT: For this reason, I tend to discount the dropping it in a tub example as that is still, clean water, not the kind most likely to be found while out adventuring.


sunshadow21 wrote:


EDIT: For this reason, I tend to discount the dropping it in a tub example as that is still, clean water, not the kind most likely to be found while out adventuring.

LOL

Yeah, the guy who keeps spouting about dropping his ebberon book in his tub. I would love to see him try to use his book after dropping it into a puddle of mud in the middle of a cow pasture. Between the mud, the water, the cow feces and urine, the bugs, and so on, I doubt he'd find the book very useful afterwards.

And let's not even get into what would happen to it if you dropped it into a sewage pond behind a trailer park. :) That's a pretty good real world equivalent of your average D&D sewer.

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