To the OP, the Rogue you're looking for is in 4E. :)
Otherwise, 3.5/PF Rogues are quite playable and one heck of a lot of fun. It's all up to the person behind the character sheet.
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Oh, it wasn't directed at anyone, just an observation on the varying dichotomy of CoD's posts.Could you please clarify that statement? I'm not sure if it was directed at me or CoDzilla, and exactly what you mean by it.It just strkes me as funny that the guy who thinks a rogue using RAW to get one over on a wizard must be DM fiat, is the same guy that came up with the above.One man's metagaming is another man's logical world building.
Metagaming FTW!
Did anyone ever find any of the builds he claims he posted? I mean with all his aliases it could take awhile to find I guess.
It's like a grail search for the magical wizard that has every ability and spell at once. He has unlocked God-Mode.
Oh, it wasn't directed at anyone, just an observation on the varying dichotomy of CoD's posts.Could you please clarify that statement? I'm not sure if it was directed at me or CoDzilla, and exactly what you mean by it.It just strkes me as funny that the guy who thinks a rogue using RAW to get one over on a wizard must be DM fiat, is the same guy that came up with the above.One man's metagaming is another man's logical world building.
Metagaming FTW!Did anyone ever find any of the builds he claims he posted? I mean with all his aliases it could take awhile to find I guess.
It's like a grail search for the magical wizard that has every ability and spell at once. He has unlocked God-Mode.
I have grown apathetic towards his statements. alot of his arguements are based on un-porfound and unrealist extremes that almost never exist in the game.
You can counter example anything when you deem everything in the game to 'have to be a certain way or its stupid'. Very frustrating to try and debate something when they build the foundations of their arguements on quicksand.
Undoubtedly he will probably comment on this, save your breath, I wont respond. Promoting ideas that are not only not productive but always have a counter arguement because you have made no real valid points just fuels the fire for more arguements.
If you claim to have all the bases covered sometimes its good enough to make people not try. doesnt work for me, there is a counter for everything he says and then he counters whatever you say with an equally flawed arguement as before. Thus creating a vicious cycle. Its why he has four accounts to troll with I would bet.
Simply unproductive. I dont argue with people to play "no no my johnson is packing more heat, your dumb and im smart" things arent that black and white.
I encourage you to greasemonkey me if you havent.
The wizard who just happens to have the correct defensive spells prepared every time, looks like metagaming.
In the days before cell phones, I used to acrry around a pocketful of quarters, and always knew where the nearest pay phones were. It wasn't "metareality." It was just being prepared.
Just a clarification: a successful Diplomacy check generally means you're not strangers.
That is all.
+1
I just wonder if is the case to reach such great power if you must live in that way ;)
The wizard who just happens to have the correct defensive spells prepared every time, looks like metagaming.In the days before cell phones, I used to acrry around a pocketful of quarters, and always knew where the nearest pay phones were. It wasn't "metareality." It was just being prepared.
Yeah but did you carry a pocket full of quarters, some matches, a calculator, a telescope, some mouthwash, tuesdays paper...
claims to have all the bases covered not a couple, a couple I could understand but saying "X wouldnt work he has Y" then when Z is brought up "Z wouldnt work he has A" until the alphabet rinses and repeats is just ridiculous to me.
The wizard who just happens to have the correct defensive spells prepared every time, looks like metagaming.In the days before cell phones, I used to acrry around a pocketful of quarters, and always knew where the nearest pay phones were. It wasn't "metareality." It was just being prepared.
That is perfectly reasonable.
But also carrying a full size phonebook, a taser, a emergency medical kit, an EMT, a gun, a knife, a lawyer, a butcher, a baker, and a candlestick maker etc etc. everywhere you go "just in case" doesn't.
The wizard who just happens to have the correct defensive spells prepared every time, looks like metagaming.In the days before cell phones, I used to acrry around a pocketful of quarters, and always knew where the nearest pay phones were. It wasn't "metareality." It was just being prepared.That is perfectly reasonable.
But also carrying a full size phonebook, a taser, a emergency medical kit, an EMT, a gun, a knife, a lawyer, a butcher, a baker, and a candlestick maker etc etc. everywhere you go "just in case" doesn't.
+1
my point exactly
Yeah but did you carry (a) a pocket full of quarters, (b) some matches, (c) a calculator, (d) a telescope, (e) some mouthwash, (f) tuesdays paper...
(a) yes; (b) yes; (c) if going to math or physics class; (d) if going hiking or sailing; (e) yes -- or if not mouthwash, at least some tic-tacs... So, yes.
People forget the wizard can change out his spells daily, based on what's likely to be coming up. Divination magic and genius-level intelligence are both good for determining what's likely to be coming up. Also, leaving a few slots open isn't a bad idea.
Yeah but did you carry (a) a pocket full of quarters, (b) some matches, (c) a calculator, (d) a telescope, (e) some mouthwash, (f) tuesdays paper...(a) yes; (b) yes; (c) if going to math or physics class; (d) if going hiking or sailing; (e) yes -- or if not mouthwash, at least some tic-tacs... So, yes.
People forget the wizard can change out his spells daily, based on what's likely to be coming up. Divination magic and genius-level intelligence are both good for determining what's likely to be coming up. Also, leaving a few slots open isn't a bad idea.
Yeah daily. Daily. So over the course of the day, unless he left some slots open (even if he did requires an hour to prepare, more than enough time for action to be taken or even disruption of this act) he is not necessarily prepared.
Contrary to popular belief he doesnt have all the resources right there to use, he has to decide before hand. He doesnt necessarily have detect poison prepared, to say a wizard always does is weird, I wouldnt prepare it as a PC.
What about charm spells? what kind of flavor is the wizard? does he prepare just a strange alotment of spells? if he does some are bound to slip through the cracks.
What if you dont know your going hiking or sailing because you didnt plan on it that day? what if the quarters fell out through a hole in your pocket? what now?
you cant claim to always be prepared, you can claim to have most things covered but the schtick of a rogue is to exploit weaknesses. Bottom line is every wizard has one, find it, push real hard and make um pop.
cant cast enchantment because you specialized? walk in with improved evasion and watch the evoker fail at life for a few castings is one example.
The fact that the rogue can be versatile, in most situations and is almost never not able to find a way out is what makes them good.
Wizards can come close, but they cant prepare everything all the time, rogues dont have to prepare they are the constant reactor class.
my PO ^
Some of us come dangerously close to all of that lol.The wizard who just happens to have the correct defensive spells prepared every time, looks like metagaming.In the days before cell phones, I used to acrry around a pocketful of quarters, and always knew where the nearest pay phones were. It wasn't "metareality." It was just being prepared.That is perfectly reasonable.
But also carrying a full size phonebook, a taser, a emergency medical kit, an EMT, a gun, a knife, a lawyer, a butcher, a baker, and a candlestick maker etc etc. everywhere you go "just in case" doesn't.
LOL
You sportin some MC Hammer cargo pants?
I think the 'monks suck' thread and this one should meet in a dark alley... Although that might be unfair as dark alleys are kind of the rogue's backyard.
^this statement explains sooooooooo much :P
My Int, while high.....
+1
I would prepare Detect Poison all the time if I lived in a world where some idiot thought he could poison me and for whatever reason despite having the universe on speed dial what with 9th level spells and all I was not immune to poison.
My Int, while high has nothing on a 17th level Wizards.
Hello again quicksand.
Bringing intelligence into this is not how to argue a point.
Intelligence is for instance NOT common sense.
there goes your whole premise. The absent minded wizard with average wisdom in all his intellectual ponderings of the universe forgot to prepare that spell.
oops.
Scrolls.
Scrolls.
wasted resources, rogues get them too, flammable, cant carry all of them, still need spend time making them, ect.
Edit:
Better yet you just made it easier for the rogue, have him nark some spells the wizard himself made with the steal combat manuever or whatever nonsense. solves the 'problem' real quick.
I was saying that it is easy for wizard's to realistically meta-game by making a bunch of scrolls (which you can presumably do if you're high enough level to just be hanging out and not adventuring) for things that aren't likely to come up, but would be good to have in a pinch. Then put these scrolls in any of the various pocket dimension items/spells and voila - "Meta-gaming", also known in this instance as being prepared.
Note - rogues and every other class that decided to take UMD (possibly with the Cosmo feat) can also do this.
ITT: Wizards holding the Idiot Ball are considered a valid argument. Even though that rather defeats the whole point.
Hint: If your opponent has to be holding the Idiot Ball for you to have any chance of beating them, it means you don't beat them. Stop pretending otherwise, and we can have a meaningful discussion about what Rogues can and cannot do. Until then, this topic is going nowhere fast.
Trust me the topic wasnt going anywhere anyways with you making arguements that dont stand.
I agree player intelligence comes in, so leave the character intelligence out of it, since you dont even know what the ability score intelligence represents (not common sense which you keep referencing, that is wisdom)
Meta-gaming means to use player knowledge to best other players because you know the circumstances for both. You argue to 'win' against rogues based on knowledge of the rogue and what spells you COULD have prepared but most likely wont unless you had prior knowledge.
I do not think it means what you think it means,
First post i've used the phrase in. I'm just using it in the same context as previous posters.
meta-gaming is using knowledge the player has that the character couldn't or does not not know in game.
This also extends to "the Dm obviously wants us to do X" or any other supposition based on non in-game elements to make in-game decisions.This also covers things like player knowing what everything in the Bestiary is capapble of, so his 2+INT skill wizard does too...
So to review what we've learned (in a less sarcastic method than before)
Things that can MECHANICALLY help a rogue
1. Subtle weapons (+4 to attack and damage is great)
2. Cloak of displacement (concealment and chance to miss is awesome)
3. Gang up (being able to flank at ranged would be huges).
4. If someone could describe in childlike not ridiculous terms the difference between the action of sniping and various concepts of moving and/or attacking while remaining in stealth. Preferably without solely using anecdotal evidence (but willing to deal with whatever).
Even with the above I still find the rogue mechanically lacking, and am looking for more thing in line with the above. Things that work to make the rogue better in a fight, or that make skills more effective for only rogues. If people have more please bring them to light to see if we can't dissuade myself and others from continuing to believe that they are below the curve.
So to review what we've learned (in a less sarcastic method than before)
Things that can MECHANICALLY help a rogue
1. Subtle weapons (+4 to attack and damage is great)
2. Cloak of displacement (concealment and chance to miss is awesome)
3. Gang up (being able to flank at ranged would be huges).
4. If someone could describe in childlike not ridiculous terms the difference between the action of sniping and various concepts of moving and/or attacking while remaining in stealth. Preferably without solely using anecdotal evidence (but willing to deal with whatever).Even with the above I still find the rogue mechanically lacking, and am looking for more thing in line with the above. Things that work to make the rogue better in a fight, or that make skills more effective for only rogues. If people have more please bring them to light to see if we can't dissuade myself and others from continuing to believe that they are below the curve.
Mechanically speaking the rogue is the exploiter of weaknesses and the situation reactor.
He manages the above IMO perfectly well.
If you want to be a capable competant player in all situations (not just when you run out of spells, when your in battle, when your fighting a favored enemy, ect.) you can do something in that situation.
If you want to play a rogue well exploit the weaknesses of the other classes. The problem with that is everyone meta-games (even I do to a cerain degree) so the ability rogues possess to gain the knowledge of other peoples weaknesses isnt as easy to exploit because so does everyone else.
I think rogues are just good at too much stuff to say they suck in general. No they dont really do anything way better than anyone else, thats the point, they just do everything. Thus the jack of all trades tack. Wizards need to be prepared? Rogues dont have to be prepared.
I apologize for my frustrations in prior posts. I will try to keep it civil.
I would also like to bring up this feat again:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/cosmopolitan
which gives a player 2 languages AND two int, cha or wisdom based skills. Meaning that literally anyone can have UMD. Why not take it on your paladin who's already cha based and is a mechanically more sound character? Or on your fighter/barbarian who really doesn't care about any of his skills? Or every other character if we're going to speak of it at it's most broken potential?
I also don't understand the concept that wizards are so OP they are unusable, but giving a rogue every item in the game and the ability to UMD them all by level 4 is not. But again, that's just my two cents.
Paladins don't get a lot of skill points, and they already are fighting, and healing. They most likely won't have time to UMD anything.
Most paladins I have seen have diplomacy, knowledge(religion), sense motive, and perception. I have never seen all four on one paladin due to a lack of skill points, but those normally take priority over UMD.PS:If any of them took the mount they probably have ride.
Can you go into more detail on what made your past rogues good? What talents/feats, non-combat and combat capabilities and so on.
I can try. Most of my rogue experiences were actually in 3.5 (where they were arguably worse off than in Pathfinder, since I love all the PF upgrades they've received). The biggest thing I've found is getting a solid idea as to what you want. You might want to consider a few primary "events" you want to be participating in, such as:
0) Theme.
1) Combat
1.a) Sneak Attack
1.b) Magic and Tools
2) Basic Builds
2.a) Skirmisher
2.b) Lancer
2.c) Blender
2.d) Variants
3) Problem solving.
4) Social situations.
Theme: A theme is more or less a rough idea of how you want to model your rogue. Assassin, Courtier, Ninja, Pirate, Spy, etc. This may or may not have much to do with how your rogue turns out (for example, assassins, ninjas, and spies are probably very similar concepts and likewise are mechanically similar).
Combat: A heavy portion of the game is probably going to be combat. Like it or not, D&D (and thus Pathfinder) has its roots in wargaming, and its an RPG of exciting fantasy adventure - which includes exciting fantasy battles. So we'll probably want our rogue to be pretty useful here.
Combat - Sneak Attack: In combat the rogue's #1 ability is Sneak Attack, which is surprisingly easy to setup if you're prepared or you have a solid party. Depending on your build (more below) your experiences setting up sneak attacks will likely change. However, sneak attack has a major drawback. It's amazingly easy for some humanoids to outright ignore by 3rd level, and becomes very, very limited by higher levels. This is primarily because you cannot sneak attack anything with concealment, which means any of the fog spells, blur, displacement, mists, or even the very shadows you can hide in prevent you from getting your sneak attack on. Humorously, all these conditions can allow you to use Stealth, so it can be a tradeoff (and for this reason darkvision and low-light vision are nice for rogues).
This basically means that it's surprisingly easy to ignore Sneak Attack, and a minor cloak of displacement trumps sneak attack 100% of the time, even better than a major fortification armor or shield, and its far cheaper (it's also useful for many more things, see below). Essentially, concealment hurts, and it pretty much means against anyone even mildly prepared for rogues you're not getting your sneak attack on (a fighter who takes blind fight and dives into a fog will crush you, without ever getting hit with a sneak attack).
So how do we get Sneak Attack to work for us? Well the main way is to deny your opponent their dexterity modifier to armor class (such as when they are flat-footed, unaware of your attack, etc) and flanking. Both aren't horribly difficult to pull off, especially by 3rd level. Most rogues will probably have a solid Dexterity, and thus their initiative rolls are probably above average (combine with Improved Initiative for good results) so catching people flat-footed isn't difficult, but it's also not reliable. Instead, we want to try and flank or attack without our opponents being able to properly react to use (such as being Stealthed before the attack).
One of our primary tricks for doing this is using the same thing that destroys our chances to sneak attack: concealment. By having our own concealment, we may make a Stealth check as party of a move action, and anyone observing us must beat our check with their Perception or else they aren't aware of us - now our next attack denies our target their Dexterity modifier - Sneak Attack!
This can be done in a variety of ways. The easiest method is having the party's wizard cast blur on you, which lasts 1 minute per level (3 minutes for wizards/sorcerers when they get it) which gives you 30 rounds worth of striking and vanishing. Move-Stealth, Attack, or Attack, Move-Stealth, repeat. If you choose to take a -20 penalty to your Stealth checks, you can attack without even revealing yourself, but the basic strategy is to attack, be noticed, then immediately hide again as part of your move action. This makes the rogue an extremely effective mobile skirmisher, because you'll want single high-accuracy attacks which an average of +3.5 damage at 1st level, with an additional 3.5 damage at 3rd, 5th, 7th, and so on.
Now, in a group, we can use terrain and teamwork to our advantage. A weapon no rogue should be without is a longspear. While it's not Finesse-able (see basic builds), Rogues are proficient with them as simple weapons and they have reach. Reach basically allows a rogue to easily flank opponents, and flank more opponents than you would normally expect (notice a rogue's threat range with a longspear). This allows you to nail an opponent with your longspear while being outside their reach. This can also be fun to use in conjunction with the Strike-vanish strategy mentioned above. By wearing a spiked gauntlet or armor spikes, our rogue also threatens adjacent squares, and thus has no area he cannot flank from within his threatened area.
Now most rogues who focus on flanking prefer to dual wield (see basic builds below), because the more attacks you can get with sneak attack, the higher your damage potential. This has a mixed effect, since rogues are average in their accuracy, and the attack penalties for dual wielding are pretty steep. This can be effective but has several major drawbacks: loss of accuracy (and thus damage), and risk to yourself (most dual-wielders have to be at ground-zero and flanking). Making this work generally requires having a solid focus on getting your accuracy up, while also getting methods for lowering or ignoring your target's armor class. Generally, you'll want to reserve two-weapon blenders (see basic builds below) for lightly armored opposition.
Splash weapons used to be good for this, since a rogue could hurl multiple splash weapons as ranged touch attacks and benefit from Sneak Attack, but for some reason the PF design team decided to sodomize rogues, and removed this option entirely.
Brilliant Energy weapons, sadly, are useless, since they just allow you to ignore armor (not natural armor or anything else), so unless you just like going toe-to-toe with Fighters and Paladins, brilliant energy weapons are a waste of money. Most enemies who can afford heavy armors can afford a cheap potion of blur to prevent sneak attacks entirely. If it worked against natural armor, I'd swear every rogue should have one, but it doesn't, so I wouldn't bother with them as a primary weapon (if you find one randomly, you might give it a try and see how you like it, but they're really mostly Fighter-bane).
Combat - Magic & Tools: I discussed using magic for sneak attacking above, but let's go a bit further into tricks that the rogue can use. Unlike the Fighter and other primary non-casters, Rogues don't have a specific niche. Instead, rogues are opportunists in the truest of senses. Rogues have access to Use Magic Device, and even with a horrible starting Charisma (Charisma 5, as a dwarf with a starting 7), you can still manage your level +1 in Use Magic Device without ever picking up a feat, masterwork tool, or +competence bonus magic item. Since the DC to use wands and staffs is 20, it's not too difficult to get it to auto-success rates by mid-levels.
This means that rogues can make use of a large variety of magical options. Honestly, a wizard is a rogue's best friend. Firstly, rogues can combine wands and x/day items that cast low-level spells ranging from acid splash and scorching ray to mid-level spells like enervation, ray of exhaustion and one of my favorites, vampiric touch with their Sneak Attack class feature. An item that casts acid splash at-will as a use-action (say a magic sling that shoots acid bullets instead of regular bullets) is only priced at 1,000 gp (1d3 acid damage, ignores spell resistance, ranged touch attack. Can you say sneak attack?).
Likewise, Rogues can fall back into a support role if needed. Since they typically high high Dexterity, splash weapons and alchemical goodies can be quite useful. The most notable being the tanglefoot bag, which a rogue can slap someone or something with by surprise (dex denied + touch attack = easy hit), and then begin carving their name into the villain on the next round. Also a good option for use with iterative or off-hand attacks (use your lowest attack bonus to toss a tanglefoot bag, inflicting the entangled condition before you actually begin your regular attack routine).
Items like thunderstones can often make excellent distractions. A thunderstone tossed from a sling a great distance can probably draw attention away from the rogue.
If your GM allows you to use stuff like bags of powdered chalk to temporarily blind opponents for 1 round, then throwing chalk, sand, or pepper in your opponent's eyes can create a nice opportunity to get away or follow through with a sneak attack. This is not core material however, so it may not be an available option (I would probably recommend using it as a ranged touch attack, with a reflex save to negate the blindness, setting the reflex save equal to 10 + 1/2 the attacker's base attack + attacker's Dexterity modifier. Alternatively it could be done as a combat maneuver, but you'd need to adapt it to ignore strength and take into account the touch attack bases).
Also outside of core, Marbles function similar to a nonmagical grease spell, and would be an exceptionally good item for rogues to be packing. I forget which book they were in, so I won't make too much mention of them right now. Some digging on the internet (say Giant in the Playground) might get your more information on them.
With Use Magic Device, rogues can also surprise people with not only the amount of tools and goodies they are packing, but the variety as well. A rogue who grabs a holy avenger in their quests might choose to wield it instead of sell it, since with a UMD check they can pretend to be a super-high level Paladin and throw around greater dispel magic while wielding a +5 holy cold-iron longsword that grants magic resistance and other cool features. Using weird tricks like this can surprise people (I mean, who expects a rogue to wield a holy avenger?), and surprise is an advantage.
Basic Builds: A few very simple builds have been listed here for your convenience. Instead of full-out builds, it's more or less an overview of what each build intends to do and how if functions, and gives some advice for placing ability scores.
Basic Build - Skirmisher: An incredibly simple build for a rogue, the skirmisher is basically a rogue who specializes in ranged combat and darting around the battlefield making single strong attacks. They excel against opponents who need to make use of the full-attack action to deal damage, and with their strike-vanish tactics can be difficult even for archery based fighters (since they'll probably not be able to beat your stealth, and it makes full-attacking you impossible - the best they'll manage is single readied action shots).
The pros of a skirmisher are pretty basic. They're easy to build. All they really need is a high dexterity for their ranged attacks, with all other ability scores being optional (I advise a bit of strength, a decent constitution, and a good mixture of intelligence and wisdom for versatility and will saves). Recommended feats include Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. You probably won't want Deadly Aim, because it doesn't scale with your base attack very well. You can wield crossbows, shortbows, or thrown weapons (elves or multiclass rogues may use longbows for great results). Everything else is optional. Here are a few minor suggestions:
1) Choose Fast Stealth as a rogue talent so you can move at your full speed in the battle without the -5 Stealth penalty.
2) Consider picking up the Acrobatic Steps and Nimble Moves feats, which allow you to ignore up to 20 feet of difficult terrain. These can be good for skirmishers. Some would suggest that these aren't very useful at higher levels however, if you have access to continual flight and some ranks in the Fly skill.
3) An item that allows you to cast or use acid splash at will is cheap and a good alternative to a weapon. It ignores spell resistance, and it's a ranged touch attack, and ignores damage reduction. Very good option for a skirmisher.
4) At higher levels, try to get magic items or feats that allow you to ignore concealment effects as much as possible. Sadly Blind-Fight doesn't do it, but the ability to cast true sight 1-5 times per day can help you ignore a number of magical concealment effects. Sadly, there's not a lot in core that can save your Sneak Attack from concealment.
5) If you have access to some non-core material, the psionic power touchsight can allow you to ignore concealment from creatures if they're within 60 feet, which is enough to get your sneak-attack on. As a 3rd level power (priced like a 3rd level spell) that lasts 1 minute/level, it's a good option for an x/day or - eventually - a continuous item (but it'd cost about 60,000 gp for a continuous touch-sight item, which means it's kind of a high-level thing, but that's also the levels where sneak attack is trivially easy to ignore with a 24,000 gp item, so it's worth considering).
6) Another non-core feat from 3.5 that is amazingly useful for a skirmisher is Cloak Dance which would require 7 ranks in Stealth and 1 Rank in Preform (Dance) in Pathfinder. It allows you to spend a move action to gain concealment, which you then use to use Stealth while moving. It's much slower than using magic for the same benefits, but it foils truesight so it's something to consider for a strike-vanish skirmisher.
The benefits of a skirmisher built rogue are pretty easy to see.
1) They're quite fun. You get to play with terrain a lot since cover and concealment are your toys.
2) Once you get a solid way to retain concealment during battles (possibly as early as 3rd level with a caster in the party) then you can be amazingly difficult to pin-down. Since enemies will often have trouble finding you it's a surprisingly safe build.
3) Speaking of safety, singe opponents won't be able to attack you when they can't find you, their only really solid opportunity to hit you with normal attacks is when you make your attack, they'll need to use readied actions. Since you cannot ready a full-attack, you'll never suffer more than one ranged attack in retaliation from any given opponent, and if you also currently have concealment, then that attack has a 20-50% chance to automatically miss you, regardless of your AC.
4) Evasion, Improved Evasion, and your high dexterity make dealing with AoE attacks (in case they try to blast you without knowing where you are) far easier to ignore or survive.
5) This build is exceptionally strong against creatures and monsters, while being weakest against humanoids. Most brute monsters can be taken apart with this strategy, and since finding someone with Scent requires a move action, even if they pinpoint your area, then they won't be able to attack you (the best they can do is try to follow you around with a move action + move action, or a move action + 50% miss chance ranged attack). Any creature that likes Blindsight and a stellar Perception modifier will probably get torn apart.
6) It requires little to no major investments to function, so the majority of your skills, style, persona, and even weapon selection is pretty much free to do as you please with. You can easily modify it as well, and it really only uses a few ranged feats (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot).
Unfortunately, ignoring your sneak attack with concealment cuts down your combat ability significantly. As such it's a good idea to try and keep some scrolls, wands, and other goodies handy for dealing with enemies when you're not sneak attacking. Likewise, since your skills and equipment is pretty much up to you, you can function as an off-healer with a wand of cure light wounds to use out of combat, and carry various utility magics. Likewise you'll be a naturally good trap-springer, and an ultimate scout.
---
Going to have to cut my post short. Sorry, I'll try to expand on some of the other options as well later, but my time's been cut short (and is very limited this week in general).
Hope you enjoyed some of these suggestions thus far.
4. If someone could describe in childlike not ridiculous terms the difference between the action of sniping and various concepts of moving and/or attacking while remaining in stealth. Preferably without solely using anecdotal evidence (but willing to deal with whatever).
The easiest way to explain/describe Stealth (sniping) is that you're essentially choosing to attempt to remain hidden despite attacking. In short, you're never breaking Stealth, and thus if you succeed the opponent does not learn where you are, it's still the same instance of Stealth as before (though you do have to make a new check to maintain it).
Now, being Stealthed, attacking (revealing yourself, and then hiding again would not be a snipe. You reveal yourself and then immediately hide again. Now in the case of being hidden due to cover or immobile concealment (such as hiding behind a crate in an alleyway), they now know where you are (even if you hid after shooting with your move action) and can either go find you (looking behind the crate means you no longer have cover or concealment and thus they automatically find you) or blast the crate and everything behind it to the celestial realms.
In the case of having "mobile concealment", such as with a cloak of displacement or blur spell currently active, you're revealing your position and then Stealthing as you move, so now they can only guess as to where you moved to.
Is that good enough, SpaceChomp?
I meant:
Dice Modifier: -20 penalty when using Stealth and sniping from within at least 10 feet of a target
that kind of sniping.
Also just mentioning the couple of feats and abilities would have been sufficient.
I meant:
Dice Modifier: -20 penalty when using Stealth and sniping from within at least 10 feet of a target
that kind of sniping.
That's the kind I was talking about in the above post, but perhaps I was unclear.
The easiest way to explain/describe Stealth (sniping) is that you're essentially choosing to attempt to remain hidden despite attacking. In short, you're never breaking Stealth, and thus if you succeed the opponent does not learn where you are, it's still the same instance of Stealth as before (though you do have to make a new check to maintain it).
This is the explanation of the -20 sniping rules, as opposed to the attack, stealth-move. I guess I should have explained the -20 penalty, but essentially the benefit of sniping versus the tried and true tactic of strike-vanishing is that when you're sniping (and accepting the -20 penalty), you can avoid being detected (instead of being spotted and then re-hiding, you can avoid being spotted at all).
Personally, in most cases (barring distance modifiers and amazing Stealth modifiers), I prefer the strike-vanishing tactic. You're spotted (temporarily) which makes you vulnerable to readied actions, and can give away your location for AoE bombing, but you avoid the -20 penalty, which makes it harder to notice you when you're on the move (likewise, sniping, as far as I can tell, means you can't move after the attack).
You talk about the PC only as a token of your game. But is a person in his world, a Character in a Story.
Well said.
So to review what we've learned (in a less sarcastic method than before)
Things that can MECHANICALLY help a rogue
1. Subtle weapons (+4 to attack and damage is great)
2. Cloak of displacement (concealment and chance to miss is awesome)
3. Gang up (being able to flank at ranged would be huges).
4. If someone could describe in childlike not ridiculous terms the difference between the action of sniping and various concepts of moving and/or attacking while remaining in stealth. Preferably without solely using anecdotal evidence (but willing to deal with whatever).Even with the above I still find the rogue mechanically lacking, and am looking for more thing in line with the above. Things that work to make the rogue better in a fight, or that make skills more effective for only rogues. If people have more please bring them to light to see if we can't dissuade myself and others from continuing to believe that they are below the curve.
Just an interesting bit of info on the Cloak of Displacement. The Major version does not provide concealment. It does provide the 50% miss chance but that is not from concealment. The Minor version does.
Something else that's interesting, there is a feat that grants a concealment if you move during your turn but it's only against ranged attacks.
Concealment or not, you cannot hide while being observed. So if you shoot someone in the face with a bow without sniping, you are no longer hiding. The dc to see you is 0. The thing you're trying to shoot go "ACK! a rogue, one of them gets sneak attacked, and initiative is rolled. You either need to run around a corner or go "Look a monkey!" with a bluff check in order to hide again...otherwise you have nothing between you and angry adventurers but a 20% miss chance.
Concealment or not, you cannot hide while being observed. So if you shoot someone in the face with a bow without sniping, you are no longer hiding. The dc to see you is 0. The thing you're trying to shoot go "ACK! a rogue, one of them gets sneak attacked, and initiative is rolled. You either need to run around a corner or go "Look a monkey!" with a bluff check in order to hide again...otherwise you have nothing between you and angry adventurers but a 20% miss chance.
Negative. Concealment allows you to do so. Here's the relevant information.
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Lacking cover or concealment means that you are being observed. Having cover or concealment means you can hide.
Concealment or not, you cannot hide while being observed. So if you shoot someone in the face with a bow without sniping, you are no longer hiding. The dc to see you is 0. The thing you're trying to shoot go "ACK! a rogue, one of them gets sneak attacked, and initiative is rolled. You either need to run around a corner or go "Look a monkey!" with a bluff check in order to hide again...otherwise you have nothing between you and angry adventurers but a 20% miss chance.
More specifically, you are correct to a point. While you're attacking with the strike-vanish tactic, you are quite visible and everyone can see you. However, upon your move action you can become Stealthed again, and now people have to find you with Perception checks.
It's more like this.
Before your turn: Hidden
Your Turn: You use a standard action to attack. You are now found.
Your Turn: You make a stealth check as part of your move action. You are now hidden.
Repeat as needed.
Concealment or not, you cannot hide while being observed. So if you shoot someone in the face with a bow without sniping, you are no longer hiding. The dc to see you is 0. The thing you're trying to shoot go "ACK! a rogue, one of them gets sneak attacked, and initiative is rolled. You either need to run around a corner or go "Look a monkey!" with a bluff check in order to hide again...otherwise you have nothing between you and angry adventurers but a 20% miss chance.More specifically, you are correct to a point. While you're attacking with the strike-vanish tactic, you are quite visible and everyone can see you. However, upon your move action you can become Stealthed again, and now people have to find you with Perception checks.
It's more like this.
Before your turn: Hidden
Your Turn: You use a standard action to attack. You are now found.
Your Turn: You make a stealth check as part of your move action. You are now hidden.Repeat as needed.
A friend of mine found a further way to use this combo with "not this day", a rogue talent in the APG.
A dip in Shadowdancer only helped.
I also find the tactic of summoning creatures and having them move through an area to set off any traps to be repulsive and munchkinlike, definitely out of touch with the spirit of the game. I'm sure the people that regularly use the spell that way think themselves clever. I think it's just annoying.
Well there's always the classic "trigger in the middle of corridor, spiked pit at the start of it" trap to deal with smug players like these
It's more like this.Before your turn: Hidden
Your Turn: You use a standard action to attack. You are now found.
Your Turn: You make a stealth check as part of your move action. You are now hidden.Repeat as needed.
Incorrect.
After you are 'found' you CANNOT use stealth because you are currently 'observed'.
The fact that you have some degree (less than full) of cover and/or concealment does not change the fact that at this point you are observed, thus any stealth against those that are observing you will fail.
You will need to create a distraction to hide (bluff) or achieve full cover or concealment relative to them to hide.
It's a common mistake,
James
Prove it, please. I quoted the rules, verbatim. It says that you cannot use Stealth while being observed by another creature (it actually says person, but that's semantics) and by getting cover or concealment you may use Stealth. It says you can use Bluff to distract them long enough to get to cover or concealment, and you take a -10 penalty because you have to get to the cover or concealment quickly (such as running to a nearby crate to hide behind).
According to the rules, it seems pretty clear to me that currently possessing cover or concealment allows you to hide while being observed. Likewise a rogue can use Stealth after ducking into an obscuring mist and ninja-vanish.
Just to reiterate:
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you.
At the absolute most unfavorable interpretation, you combine it with an un-penalized Bluff check to use Stealth, so in either case you don't waste an action, it just means you buff Bluff as well as Stealth.
Prove it, please. I quoted the rules, verbatim. It says that you cannot use Stealth while being observed by another creature (it actually says person, but that's semantics) and by getting cover or concealment you may use Stealth. It says you can use Bluff to distract them long enough to get to cover or concealment, and you take a -10 penalty because you have to get to the cover or concealment quickly (such as running to a nearby crate to hide behind).
According to the rules, it seems pretty clear to me that currently possessing cover or concealment allows you to hide while being observed. Likewise a rogue can use Stealth after ducking into an obscuring mist and ninja-vanish.
Just to reiterate:
...If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you
Except, this is Hide in Plain Sight. That ability (troublesome as it is) allows a character to Hide better by allowing them to do so "even while being observed"
Which sounds like people without it cannot be observed if they want to Hide.
Move this to the forum about stealth.
Stealth is valid in most cases, if you cant find a way to use stealth that is like saying "a fighter is useless without his weapon". Yes that is true a rogue sucks if he cant use stealth, but a rogue better have a way to use stealth or he shouldnt have chosen that profession.
There are many things you can do to make sure you have the weapon you need, whether that be a sword or the ability to be unseen.
Arbitrary arguements about stealth being not good or sniping being impossible (there is a sniping rogue archetype that makes that possible with a plethora of talents and feats to aid so not really valid if that is your forte) doesn't contribute to the original arguement.
besides there is a whole other forum dedicated to this, and in the other forum it was eventually deemed to be whole heartedly a useful skill that required the craftiness of a rogue to really pull off.
That is what the rogue requires, breaking through obstacles to use your strengths...
My PO^
I think it matter because of things like Hide in Plain Sight (which rangers get at high levels).
Basically i was trying to find out if rogues get something similar that they can use in to do the same sorts of effects.
So far, the people that have spoken of rogues as melee mashers haven't convinced me or most of the other people that have been paying attention. The stealth and attacking business seems to be more of a workable option, so i'm seeing if they have anything that helps them excel at it.
I think it matter because of things like Hide in Plain Sight (which rangers get at high levels).
Basically i was trying to find out if rogues get something similar that they can use in to do the same sorts of effects.
So far, the people that have spoken of rogues as melee mashers haven't convinced me or most of the other people that have been paying attention. The stealth and attacking business seems to be more of a workable option, so i'm seeing if they have anything that helps them excel at it.
Honestly the best thing I can tell you is skill combination.
Use your sleight of hand or intellect to perform a theft on a residence, hit and run job, whatever... get some cash (this is just to get money so dont argue this point there are alot of ways to do that.)
Once you got a little bragging rights and cash pick up some useful items (masterwork thieves tools, smoke bombs, disguise kit, ect)
use your smoke bombs or whatever you purchased with your little pocket change to blow some smoke down whenever you want to snipe. After all that is concealment (50% concealment means you are not being observed, blind the condition gives everything 50% which implies 50% means cannot be seen therefore observed).
Tumble out of the smoke with a little tuck and roll and stealth into another place of cover. Light off another arrow.
Rinse and repeat for just one example, many many many ways this can be pulled off.
In my honest opinion concealment means you are not being observed, that percentage represents the error in your sight, thus why 50% for being blind. You could say well I know the general area he is in, but that doesnt necessarily mean you can defend the attack any better because you know what square he is in.
Imagine cloud of black smoke, arrows coming out of it, fills chest of bad guy.
hit and run tactics.
definitely not the only way the rogue is effective and this example is viable at level 1.