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It is kind of a redundant argument:
Rogues do nothing
Rogues do something. Look at sneak attack
Math argument
Well, they do a lot out of combat
Talk of skill irrelevancy/point to X class that does stealth better
I think they are fine and they have been useful
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I have added the ranger argument I believe 3 times, stealth keeps coming up and getting defeated....
Yep, thread has run it's course. Still gonna go on forever... Internet is made for useless arguments :).
Bards are awesome at ALL levels. Just ask the group who got beat up by the bard I ran last week.Druids make better scouts. Urban skirmisher rangers make better... everything. They have the animal companion (which will be boomed), trapfinding (if we're arguing that matters), higher damage ratios, and similar stunts for making their stealth awesome. They even get hide in plain sight. All for the cost of 2 skill points (which, after 6 or 7, do you really need more skills?)
APG made rangers awesome, made monks playable, gave fighters and pallies more powers, a few neat alts. Wiz and Sorc got little, but needed little. Druids got the cat Druid, I haven't seen anything else recently. But rogues? Mostly tricks nobody will use, and kits that take away one of their only advantages for mediocre feats.
Rogues and barbs were both pretty bad to begin with, but at least Barbs are great till 6th. Face it everyone, we all WANT good rogues, we always have... half the cool icons in fantasy are rogues. It just never happened :(.
I'm not sure how that's relevant to the post you're quoting. Perhaps you meant to quote something else?
According to the rules ONLY ROGUES can disable magical traps. A competent rogue can disable traps all day without expending resources, mages/druids on the other hand...
...expend fewer spell resources getting passed a reasonable number of traps than they need to do the rogues job and perform their other duties. If it takes 5 spells to do the rogues job and you have 10 spells the party is UP 5 spells, not down 5 spells.
You can get a lot of milliage out of a 1 hour per level unseen servant and a small cart full of rocks.
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It is kind of a redundant argument:
Rogues do nothing
Rogues do something. Look at sneak attack
Math argument
Well, they do a lot out of combat
Talk of skill irrelevancy/point to X class that does stealth better
I think they are fine and they have been useful
Back to top
I have added the ranger argument I believe 3 times, stealth keeps coming up and getting defeated....
Yep, thread has run it's course. Still gonna go on forever... Internet is made for useless arguments :).
Thalin - I see what you're doing there....Clever Boy.
Tip - if you don't like this post, quit writing "someone should stop this post" or "why are people still arguing here". All this does is push the topic back towards the top of the forums for more people to be reminded that it exists. That's my take on it.
I got what I came for. I still feel that rogues are the weakest class mechanically in PF (IN MY OPINION). I also go to see that i'm not the only person out there that feels this way. HOWEVER, i no longer feel that they are not useless and this point has been mostly proven here. Good chat fellas.
How exactly? You have to waste 5 spells to do what a rogue can do naturally.
Point being, that player is playing a wizard/sorcerer instead of a rogue. The rogue gets 0 spells per day.
So did everyone agree yet that Rogues are no longer needed. To give the Flanking Damage and evasion ability over to the Fighter, up the Fighter skill points to +6. And just get ride of the rogue :)
Point being, that player is playing a wizard/sorcerer instead of a rogue. The rogue gets 0 spells per day.
No, hes playing some kind of magical mystical rogue with squishy hit points and wearing a bathrboe into combat afterwards, armed only with a dagger he doesn't know how to use and a gallantly cavalier attitude :p
How exactly? You have to waste 5 spells to do what a rogue can do naturally. So you're still down 5 spells.
(numbers completely made up to make math easier. estimates high at lower levels and low at higher levels.)
Party A has A fighter a wizard a cleric and a Rogue. They have 20 spells. If party B Has a fighter, a wizard, a cleric, and needs a 4th member. If they pick a druid or wizard the party gets 10 more spells. If 5 of those spells goes into making up for the rogue , Party B still has 25 spells to party A's 20.
How many Unseen Servants are you going to prep? How many scrolls are you going to buy? A trap that has an AoE attached to it will dispel your Servant (and probably get you as well). So much for one hour and avoiding damage, huh?
2 or 3, none they're a horrible waste of money for something you cast all the time, and unseen servant has a range of 25 feet +5 feet /2 levels. So even if you launch a fireball trap at a level 1 party it should go off on the wheel barrel and just barely miss the wizard.
I've been in and have dm'ed parties where a wizard/sorcerer tried to make up for a lack of a rogue. When you do that, you're still down five spells that could be used to hurt the enemy. And it don't work so well. I've seen the practical application and it's not so practical.
Your groups might need a rogue. I didn't recommend replacing them with a wizard but it might be possible. How many traps do you put into your dungeons?
Well, if Paizo agrees with you and dishes out more goodies for the rogue, all the better. My rogue is already Way Cool Jr. since I don't limit him to PF Core/APG stuff, so he'll only be that much cooler with more goodies.
I don't think that will happen. I think Paizo will go with the opinions of a majority of people who enjoy playing a class that seems cool and feels fun to people enjoying the role playing aspects that are inherent of the paradigm of the class, and the occasional fist full of dice from a backstab rather than the minority of people who look under the hood, think outside the box and explo.. erm. use the system to its potential in order to get something better.
I don't think they're wrong in doing this. A group picking up the iconic characters or their close equivalent is probably going to be good enough for a published adventure or all but the most unyielding arms racing DM's who DEMANDS his players step up the combat OR DIE muahaahhaahhahahaha.
The class is good enough to have fun with for most groups, especially if the DM will budge a bit to make them useful and thats probably the important thing.
Your groups might need a rogue. I didn't recommend replacing them with a wizard but it might be possible. How many traps do you put into your dungeons?
Personally, I put quite a few.
Along with Bear Traps and Caltrops and other nuisances.
Although I agree, its like placing traps has become a lost art... its almost as if, people didn't wanna play rogues, so DM's left out traps to make life easy...and then the mentality became fixed...!
Your groups might need a rogue. I didn't recommend replacing them with a wizard but it might be possible. How many traps do you put into your dungeons?
Personally, I put quite a few.
Along with Bear Traps and Caltrops and other nuisances.
Although I agree, its like placing traps has become a lost art... its almost as if, people didn't wanna play rogues, so DM's left out traps to make life easy...and then the mentality became fixed...!
I think its a matter of the declining importance of dungeon crawling. If you figure a game session is about 4 hours
Half an hour of food
half an hour of monty python jokes/puns/alright quiet down people
2 hours of combat
1 hour of role playing
1 hour of general travel/obstacles/ shopkeeping
1 hour of dungeon crawling...
Something had to give when the fights got more tactical and less freeform, and the dungeon crawling was it.
I think its a matter of the declining importance of dungeon crawling. If you figure a game session is about 4 hours
We generally work off a basis of around 6 hours, which allows for all that faffing about (food and jokes).
Any shopkeeping or non-mission type "can my dude make/buy/beg for X?" stuff happens between sessions on email. I can't stand people asking about item generation etc at the table - its a massive waste of my (limited) recreational time.
You are right though - 'back in the day', game sessions would be long affairs, sometimes whole weekends would be consumed, now its short and sharp. Unfortunately a lot has been lost in the transition.
It has taken me a while as a GM to adjust to the 'everything has to fit in 5 hours' serial/episodic play, but I have found it IS possible to still have trap laden dungeons etc.
Mind you, I think PF plays a little faster than we did back in the 2ED days, the whole party's turn taking usually taking 5 mins to be resolved.
60 seconds per person is quite reasonable I think!
Can we leave out the "you suxor at this" element guys?
For myself, I would play a rogue over the druid because I find the druid to be boring. I really hate the spell list and I am not a fan having an animal companion that is at least as good as another party member. Even the guy playing the druid in my current campaign feels like he is ready to multiclass out because the spell list is kinda boring, even if the spells themselves are useful.
I would choose a rogue over a ranger if I wanted to have sneak attack instead of favored enemies. I would choose the rogue over the ranger if the campaign is going to spend a lot of time in cities as well as the wilderness.
My choice to play a rogue doesn't stop the others in the party from playing a druid or ranger. Having several characters that can act as scouts can increase the amount of information you gain as well as provide additional combat support if that is needed to.
Since no class can do everything on demand, the party should be build by having certain roles filled instead of classes. If someone wants to play the scout there are options for every class to fill that role. Some will do a better job than others but they all can pull it off. I think that the rogue can do that well and not sacrifice his combat ability. He won't have a ton of combat options but he will still be able to deal a bunch of damage.
I feel like we are agreeing at this point. I use rogues a lot because I tend to lean toward non-magical classes and it fits my concept sometimes. I have just never picked a rogue because its ABILITIES fit my concept. That is pretty much the whole point of this 19 pages of argument. All the anti-rogue people are asking for is something the rogue can do (not role play, and not something that is not exclusive to them but slightly better then another class, like skills) that makes the class unique and fun to play.
The druid has wild shape, the Wiz/Sor have the big spell list, fighters can beat enemies down through shear weight of feats and still get dex in full plate, monks have the whole really fast unarmed supernatural ki powered thing (not always considered a good class but still unique) ect. See what I am trying to say? I want something like this for the rogue (and don't say sneak attack because that is just hard to get bonus damage, not really something to base a class on)
This post is going to get a lot of gripe, but I am hoping someone looks through the insults about the rogue and attempts to answer the the real question that has been posted throughout this entire thread. What does a rogue get that makes there abilities character worthy?
Rogues have trap finding, talents that aren't replicated in feats for the many of them, a huge list of class skills and decent number of base points to spend upon them.
They also have a way to deal damage without relying upon having a high STR score, which not a focus is a nice aside.
But honestly if that's what you are looking for then it's mainly dealing with magical traps and the rogue talents.
Now if traps are either non-existent, or stand alone pin pricks then it's not as important. Likewise if all of your combats are melee with enemies appearing at 30' then long ranged spells and weapons are not as important. If combat is rare in your campaign and social skills stressed for all PCs then weights and values will be different.
Rogues have a place, and can deliver a decent value for their inclusion in a group.
-James
Ah now we are getting somewhere, yes trap finding seems to be all rogues have going for them and that was the initial complaint of the first poster. I do not believe a rogue is a waste of space it is just that no one wants for them to be emulated so easily by other classes. You do not have to admit they suck but can we acknowledge that trap finding is pretty weak for the main bonus to a class?
Yeah traps losing their luster kind of screwed the rogue, it does not help that disarming traps is a rogue thing and only the rogue thing and the party can't contribute in any way which most DM's find is boring to everyone but the rogue, Even orc barbarians can participate in social situations even if not that well. I suppose question answered though, so I am content with this thread
You're putting this on par with a decker in another game that takes a whole long time.
Dealing with traps is a LOT quicker than say 'dealing with the social situations' or crossing the street.
I mean how long does it really take to have the following:
DM: You spot a trap ahead, it has a pressure plate trigger.
Rogue Player: I attempt to disable it and bypass it.
Player rolls a d20 or takes 10 and adds his bonus.
DM: You've bypassed it, you can leave it armed or disarmed.
Player: I'll re-arm it after the party passes (or optionally 'I leave it disarmed').Sounds like it takes less time than some players took in 3.5 to figure out their power attack values to me.
-James
PS: I'm not sure that traps have lost their luster, its more that they perhaps aren't used well in places.
(I know I know I couldn't help but post) One trap in a day to let the rogue shine is not a big hindrance to anyone but for it to be considered useful your looking at four or five in a day which means the DM constantly interrupts the story to tell the rogue "oh hey make a check" *rogue makes check* DM: "oh okay" or "you all take... 6 damage" and moves on. I would like for it to be more exciting, it just isn't
What would you suggest to make traps exciting for all players?
What would you suggest to make traps exciting for all players?
Here's the masterclass.
What would you suggest to make traps exciting for all players?Here's the masterclass.
Those would be examples like what I posted above
DM: rogue make a roll
Rogue: *makes roll*
DM: arrows flying from wall/pit with spikes does X damage
Party moves on, it looks fun when you watch someone go through it but it is not so exciting when actually played out
So here is Zypher at level 5, 10, 15, and 20. He's certainly not perfect but he can hold his own in combat. In addition, he is now able to scout inside, outside, in rural, or in urban environments.
My goals with the character were to make sure that he was a useful scout in a wide variety of situations. He could not sacrifice his combat ability to pull this off though. I was limited to the Core Rulebook and the Advanced Player’s Guide. If other resources were allowed I may have been able to do something different. I don’t know if it would have made much difference though.
According to my definition of a scout, he needs to be able to move quickly and quietly through dangerous territory. He must be able to gather information on a variety of situations such as terrain, weather, and units in the area. This may require him to get close enough to determine a lot of information about the unit. He should be able to read body language and speak other languages so that he can determine what’s going on. He also needs to be able to get that information back to the party in a timely manner so that they can make appropriate decisions. If caught, he must be able to either get out quickly or defend himself until the party arrives. This is a last resort though.
ZYPHER CR 4
Male Human Rogue (Scout) 5
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +11
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DEFENSE
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AC 19, touch 14, flat-footed 15. . (+5 armor, +4 Dex)
hp 38 (5d8+10)
Fort +4, Ref +9, Will +3
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Trap Sense +1
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 Shortsword +8 (1d6+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +7 (1d3+1/20/x2)
Ranged +1 Crossbow, Light +6 (1d8+1/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks Scout's Charge, Sneak Attack +3d6
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STATISTICS
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Str 13, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +3; CMB +4; CMD 18
Feats Alertness, Rogue Weapon Proficiencies, Shadow Strike, Stealthy, Weapon Finesse
Traits Devotee of the Green: Knowledge: Nature, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +9, Climb +11, Diplomacy +7, Disable Device +14, Disguise +8, Escape Artist +10, Heal +5, Knowledge: Local +6, Knowledge: Nature +6, Linguistics +5, Perception +11, Sense Motive +8, Stealth +17, Survival +6, Swim +5, Use Magic Device +7 Modifiers Camoflage (1/day)
Languages Common, Gnoll, Orc
SQ Fast Stealth (Ex), Trapfinding +2
Combat Gear +2 Studded Leather, +1 Shortsword, +1 Crossbow, Light, Bolts, Crossbow (10); Other Gear Climber's kit, Cloak of Resistance, +1, Disguise kit (10 uses), Healer's kit (10 uses), Thieves' tools, masterwork, Wand of Darkvision, Wand of Message
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Bolts, Crossbow - 0/10
Camoflage (1/day) (Ex) - 0/1
Wand of Darkvision - 0/10
Wand of Message - 0/30
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Camoflage (1/day) (Ex) 1/day craft camo from foliage that grants +4 stealth.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Stealth (Ex) You may move at full speed while using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Scout's Charge (Ex) Charge attacks deal sneak attack damage.
Shadow Strike You can deal precision damage against targets with some concealment.
Sneak Attack +3d6 +3d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Trap Sense +1 (Ex) +1 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +2 +2 to find or disable traps.
ZYPHER #2 CR 9
Male Human Rogue (Scout) 10
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +11; Senses Perception +24
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DEFENSE
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AC 22, touch 17, flat-footed 17. . (+5 armor, +5 Dex, +2 deflection)
hp 83 (10d8+30)
Fort +9, Ref +16, Will +9
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Trap Sense +3
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OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +2 Shortsword +14/+9 (1d6+4/19-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +12/+7 (1d3+2/20/x2)
Ranged +1 Crossbow, Light +11/+6 (1d8+1/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks Powerful Sneak, Scout's Charge, Skirmisher, Sneak Attack +5d6
--------------------
STATISTICS
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Str 14, Dex 18/20, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12/14, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +9; CMD 26
Feats Alertness, Improved Initiative, Rogue Weapon Proficiencies, Shadow Strike, Stealthy, Toughness +10, Weapon Finesse
Traits Devotee of the Green: Knowledge: Nature, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +15, Climb +12, Diplomacy +10, Disable Device +20, Disguise +8, Escape Artist +22, Heal +10, Knowledge: Local +9, Knowledge: Nature +9, Linguistics +7, Perception +24, Sense Motive +11, Stealth +31, Survival +9, Swim +6, Use Magic Device +12 Modifiers Camoflage (1/day)
Languages Common, Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Orc
SQ Fast Stealth (Ex), Quick Disable (Ex), Trap Spotter (Ex), Trapfinding +5
Combat Gear +1 Crossbow, Light, Bolts, Crossbow (10), +2 Shadow Studded Leather, +2 Shortsword; Other Gear Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +2, Climber's kit, Cloak of Resistance, +4, Disguise kit (10 uses), Eyes of the Eagle, Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +2, Healer's kit (10 uses), Ring of Protection, +2, Spyglass, Thieves' tools, masterwork, Wand of Comprehend Languages, Wand of Darkvision, Wand of Dimension Door, Wand of Feather Step, Wand of Keen Senses, Wand of Longstrider, Wand of Message
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Bolts, Crossbow - 0/10
Camoflage (1/day) (Ex) - 0/1
Wand of Comprehend Languages - 0/50
Wand of Darkvision - 0/50
Wand of Dimension Door - 0/50
Wand of Feather Step - 0/50
Wand of Keen Senses - 0/50
Wand of Longstrider - 0/50
Wand of Message - 0/50
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Camoflage (1/day) (Ex) 1/day craft camo from foliage that grants +4 stealth.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Stealth (Ex) You may move at full speed while using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Powerful Sneak (Ex) Take a full attack action at -2 to hit until your next turn. Sneak attacks during this time turn sneak damage rolls of 1 into 2.
Quick Disable (Ex) You can use the disable device ability to disable traps in half the normal time (minimum 1 round).
Scout's Charge (Ex) Charge attacks deal sneak attack damage.
Shadow Strike You can deal precision damage against targets with some concealment.
Skirmisher (Ex) 1st attack after moving 10+' (same round) deals sneak attack damage.
Sneak Attack +5d6 +5d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10' of a trap, the GM secretly rolls for you to find it.
Trapfinding +5 +5 to find or disable traps.
ZYPHER #3 CR 14
Male Human Rogue (Scout) 15
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +13; Senses Perception +30
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DEFENSE
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AC 22, touch 17, flat-footed 17. . (+5 armor, +5 Dex, +2 deflection)
hp 168 (15d8+90)
Fort +14, Ref +20, Will +14
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Trap Sense +5
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee +2 Shortsword +20/+15/+10 (1d6+7/19-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +18/+13/+8 (1d3+5/20/x2)
Ranged +1 Crossbow, Light +17/+12/+7 (1d8+1/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks Deadly, Powerful Sneak, Scout's Charge, Skirmisher, Sneak Attack +8d6
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STATISTICS
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Str 14/20, Dex 19/25, Con 14/20, Int 10, Wis 12/16, Cha 8/12
Base Atk +11; CMB +16; CMD 35
Feats Acrobatic Steps, Alertness, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Nimble Moves, Rogue Weapon Proficiencies, Shadow Strike, Stealthy, Toughness +15, Weapon Finesse
Traits Devotee of the Green: Knowledge: Nature, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +24, Climb +13, Diplomacy +15, Disable Device +27, Disguise +18, Escape Artist +24, Heal +11, Knowledge: Local +12, Knowledge: Nature +12, Linguistics +8, Perception +30, Sense Motive +14, Stealth +38, Survival +10, Swim +9, Use Magic Device +19 Modifiers Camoflage (1/day), Charmer (4/day), Follow Clues
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc
SQ Fast Stealth (Ex), Quick Disable (Ex), Trap Spotter (Ex), Trapfinding +7
Combat Gear +1 Crossbow, Light, Bolts, Crossbow (10), +2 Shadow Studded Leather, +2 Shortsword; Other Gear Belt of Physical Perfection, +6, Cloak of Resistance, +4, Disguise kit (10 uses), Eyes of the Eagle, Headband of Mental Prowess, WIS & CHA +4, Healer's kit (10 uses), Ring of Protection, +2, Spyglass, Thieves' tools, masterwork, Wand of Comprehend Languages, Wand of Darkvision, Wand of Dimension Door, Wand of Feather Step, Wand of Keen Senses, Wand of Longstrider, Wand of Message
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Bolts, Crossbow - 0/10
Camoflage (1/day) (Ex) - 0/1
Charmer (4/day) (Ex) - 0/4
Wand of Comprehend Languages - 0/50
Wand of Darkvision - 0/50
Wand of Dimension Door - 0/24
Wand of Feather Step - 0/50
Wand of Keen Senses - 0/50
Wand of Longstrider - 0/50
Wand of Message - 0/50
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Camoflage (1/day) (Ex) 1/day craft camo from foliage that grants +4 stealth.
Charmer (4/day) (Ex) 1/day roll 2d20 for Diplomacy and take the better result.
Deadly, Powerful Sneak (Ex) Take a full attack action at -2 to hit until your next turn. Sneak attacks during this time turn sneak damage rolls of 1 into 2.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Stealth (Ex) You may move at full speed while using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Follow Clues (Ex) A rogue with this talent can use Perception to follow tracks as per the Survival skill.
Nimble Moves Move through 5' of difficult terrain/round as if it was normal terrain.
Quick Disable (Ex) You can use the disable device ability to disable traps in half the normal time (minimum 1 round).
Scout's Charge (Ex) Charge attacks deal sneak attack damage.
Shadow Strike You can deal precision damage against targets with some concealment.
Skirmisher (Ex) 1st attack after moving 10+' (same round) deals sneak attack damage.
Sneak Attack +8d6 +8d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Trap Sense +5 (Ex) +5 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10' of a trap, the GM secretly rolls for you to find it.
Trapfinding +7 +7 to find or disable traps.
ZYPHER #4 CR 19
Male Human Rogue (Scout) 20
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +20; Senses Perception +39
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DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 34, touch 21, flat-footed 29. . (+8 armor, +5 Dex, +5 natural, +5 deflection)
hp 223 (20d8+120)
Fort +17, Ref +28, Will +20
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Trap Sense +6
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 45 ft.
Melee +5 Defending, Dueling, Keen Shortsword +31/+26/+21 (1d6+10/17-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +26/+21/+16 (1d3+5/20/x2)
Ranged +1 Crossbow, Light +25/+20/+15 (1d8+1/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks Deadly, Powerful Sneak, Hunter's Surprise (1/day), Master Strike (DC 23), Scout's Charge, Skirmisher, Sneak Attack +10d6
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 14/20, Dex 24/30, Con 14/20, Int 10/16, Wis 16/22, Cha 8/14
Base Atk +15; CMB +20; CMD 46 (48 vs. Disarm48 vs. Feint)
Feats Acrobatic Steps, Alertness, Fleet, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Light Step, Nimble Moves, Racial Heritage: Elf, Rogue Weapon Proficiencies, Shadow Strike, Stealthy, Toughness +20, Weapon Finesse
Traits Devotee of the Green: Knowledge: Nature, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +35, Appraise +5, Bluff +4, Climb +19, Diplomacy +23, Disable Device +35, Disguise +21, Escape Artist +29, Fly +32, Heal +23, Intimidate +4, Knowledge: Arcana +25, Knowledge: Local +21, Knowledge: Nature +21, Knowledge: Nobility +25, Linguistics +19, Perception +39, Ride +12, Sense Motive +25, Stealth +57, Survival +15, Swim +15, Use Magic Device +23 Modifiers Camoflage (1/day), Charmer (5/day), Follow Clues, Stealthy Sniper
Languages Aboleth, Abyssal, Aklo, Celestial, Common, Dark Folk, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Infernal, Orc, Sphinx, Sylvan, Undercommon
SQ Fast Stealth (Ex), Quick Disable (Ex), Trap Spotter (Ex), Trapfinding +10
Combat Gear +1 Crossbow, Light, Bolts, Crossbow (10), +5 Shadow, Greater Studded Leather, +5 Defending, Dueling, Keen Shortsword; Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +5, Belt of Physical Perfection, +6, Boots of Striding and Springing, Cloak of Resistance, +4, Disguise kit (10 uses), Eyes of the Eagle, Gloves of Swimming and Climbing, Headband of Mental Superiority, +6: Fly, Knowledge: Arcana, Healer's kit (10 uses), Ioun Stone, Dusty Rose Prism, Ioun Stone, Pale Green Prism, Manual of Quickness of Action, +4, Ring of Protection, +5, Spyglass, Stone of Good Luck (Luckstone), Thieves' tools, masterwork, Tome of Understanding, +3, Wand of Comprehend Languages, Wand of Darkvision, Wand of Dimension Door, Wand of Feather Step, Wand of Keen Senses, Wand of Longstrider, Wand of Message, Wand of Overland Flight
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Bolts, Crossbow - 0/10
Camoflage (1/day) (Ex) - 1/1
Charmer (5/day) (Ex) - 0/5
Hunter's Surprise (1/day) (Ex) - 0/1
Wand of Comprehend Languages - 0/50
Wand of Darkvision - 0/50
Wand of Dimension Door - 0/50
Wand of Feather Step - 0/50
Wand of Keen Senses - 0/50
Wand of Longstrider - 0/50
Wand of Message - 0/50
Wand of Overland Flight - 0/50
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Camoflage (1/day) (Ex) 1/day craft camo from foliage that grants +4 stealth.
Charmer (5/day) (Ex) 1/day roll 2d20 for Diplomacy and take the better result.
Deadly, Powerful Sneak (Ex) Take a full attack action at -2 to hit until your next turn. Sneak attacks during this time turn sneak damage rolls of 1 into 2.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Stealth (Ex) You may move at full speed while using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Follow Clues (Ex) A rogue with this talent can use Perception to follow tracks as per the Survival skill.
Hunter's Surprise (1/day) (Ex) 1/day, all attacks against a chosen target are sneak attacks.
Light Step You can ignore the effects of difficult terrain in natural environments, as if it were normal terrain.
Master Strike (DC 23) (Ex) Kill, paralyze, or KO the target of a sneak attack.
Nimble Moves Move through 5' of difficult terrain/round as if it was normal terrain.
Quick Disable (Ex) You can use the disable device ability to disable traps in half the normal time (minimum 1 round).
Racial Heritage: Elf You count as another race for the purpose of prerequisites.
Scout's Charge (Ex) Charge attacks deal sneak attack damage.
Shadow Strike You can deal precision damage against targets with some concealment.
Skirmisher (Ex) 1st attack after moving 10+' (same round) deals sneak attack damage.
Sneak Attack +10d6 +10d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Stealthy Sniper (Ex) Sniping is only a -10 penalty, rather than -20
Trap Sense +6 (Ex) +6 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10' of a trap, the GM secretly rolls for you to find it.
Trapfinding +10 +10 to find or disable traps.
This is kind of going off on a tangent, but all I'd really need to feel better about the rogue at this point is a better list of rogue talents.
For me it's now in basically the same boat in terms of interestingness to play and toughness that the barbarian was pre-APG with most of the core Rage Powers being either junky or very situational. The APG fixed that to a large degree for the barbarian for me -- whether or not it's exactly tough, at least it's different/interesting enough for me to want to play one at some point -- but the rogue talents it added didn't quite make that up for me for the rogue.
This is kind of going off on a tangent, but all I'd really need to feel better about the rogue at this point is a better list of rogue talents.
For me it's now in basically the same boat in terms of interestingness to play and toughness that the barbarian was pre-APG with most of the core Rage Powers being either junky or very situational. The APG fixed that to a large degree for the barbarian for me -- whether or not it's exactly tough, at least it's different/interesting enough for me to want to play one at some point -- but the rogue talents it added didn't quite make that up for me for the rogue.
I kind of agree too. I really like the concept but I think that some of it is lacking. Of course there are probably some that are awesome in some campaigns and utter crap in others. It's hard for a designer to come up with ideas that are great in all campaigns.
Or...
Rogue: Checking for Traps.
DM: Whats your perception?
Rogue: Answers.
DM: *makes roll*
DM: You've think you've found a trap mechanism, whats your disable?
Rogue: Answers
DM: *makes roll*
DM: You think it might be all clear now.
Some things are best suited for the GM to roll.
Or...
Rogue: Checking for Traps.
DM: Whats your perception?
Rogue: Answers.
DM: *makes roll*
DM: You've think you've found a trap mechanism, whats your disable?
Rogue: Answers
DM: *makes roll*
DM: You think it might be all clear now.Some things are best suited for the GM to roll.
True but then you walk forward and find out, not a huge mystery. Not to mention it is still annoying to have to stop for this 4-5 times in a day and wait for the rogue to do that.
one comment about your rogues though bob_loblaw, They all seem to have a lot of wands, granted wands are somewhat cheap and quite useful but by level ten you will notice quite the dip into your share of the gold has gone into wands. Just my initial obseration
I agree on the talents, could be more diverse, instead of half of them just modifying your chances on a skill check
Or...
Rogue: Checking for Traps.
DM: Whats your perception?
Rogue: Answers.
DM: *makes roll*
DM: You've think you've found a trap mechanism, whats your disable?
Rogue: Answers
DM: *makes roll*
DM: You think it might be all clear now.Some things are best suited for the GM to roll.
True but then you walk forward and find out, not a huge mystery. Not to mention it is still annoying to have to stop for this 4-5 times in a day and wait for the rogue to do that.
one comment about your rogues though bob_loblaw, They all seem to have a lot of wands, granted wands are somewhat cheap and quite useful but by level ten you will notice quite the dip into your share of the gold has gone into wands. Just my initial obseration
I agree on the talents, could be more diverse, instead of half of them just modifying your chances on a skill check
The wand use is because I had plenty of points to put into Use Magic Device. All the gear I chose takes the wand values into account.
As for the checking for traps, if you have Trap Spotter, you essentially have a free check for traps instead of having to declare it. It won't slow you down anymore. That's a great talent for any trap hunting rogue.
The Dm still has to stop everything to make the roll, I hate waiting for my DM to do stuff we can't know about. Takes forever with our characters just standing there while he rolls and figures out how each roll changes the next one.
You did take those into account but you did not take into account the cost of it being expendable. After using all of the charges to your level 5 wands you need more, so you dip into some of the level 6 wbl, eventually those run out so you dip some more. By level ten your gear should not reflect WBL because a lot went into items you have to re-purchase
True but then you walk forward and find out, not a huge mystery. Not to mention it is still annoying to have to stop for this 4-5 times in a day and wait for the rogue to do that.
It's pretty quick, and adds to the mystery :p
A players turn should be able to be resolved in under a minute, much like combat. So 4-5 minutes a session too much?
I think it works out ok, maybe your mileage varies :)
The Dm still has to stop everything to make the roll, I hate waiting for my DM to do stuff we can't know about. Takes forever with our characters just standing there while he rolls and figures out how each roll changes the next one.
I don't mind, even as DM. It's only a few more die rolls and the ones that don't matter (the decoy rolls) don't take that much time to make.
You did take those into account but you did not take into account the cost of it being expendable. After using all of the charges to your level 5 wands you need more, so you dip into some of the level 6 wbl, eventually those run out so you dip some more. By level ten your gear should not reflect WBL because a lot went into items you have to re-purchase
Actually I did take the cost into account at each level. The WBL rules take into account that you are using consumables.
"It is assumed that some of this treasure is consumed in the course of an adventure (such as potions and scrolls), and that some of the less useful items are sold for half value so more useful gear can be purchased."
I always spent the money at each level assuming that I had to replace the wands.
The "Wealth by level" and "Income per encounter" could probably be raided to figure out what % of your income is going into consumables, the loss of selling equipment,potions scrolls, food, lodging, bribes, water damage...
I don't think the game has set rules on how to deal with the difference between income (how much you take in) and wealth (how much stuff you end up with). Wealth can be lost through the aforementioned expenses, or increased through crafting (a bit with regular crafts, insanely with magic item creation feats) That's something every DM has to deal with at their own tables, with no discernible guidelines.
A players turn being resolved in a minute or over a minute does not bother me much, it is when the rogue is the only one getting a turn during trap encounters five times a session that bothers me. 4-5 min of "rogue time" is not fair to other players unless they get theirs too. Which sucks up 20 min of game time with 4 people.
@bob_loblaw I am aware it takes consumables into account but you have more then what I would consider average consumables for one player. Then again the WBL does not state how much it thinks is going into consumables and this is conjecture on my part
Yeah, I don't see this. Sorry.
Do you resent the wizard casting a spell to get over an obstacle, or a PC for making a climb check to get into a position to lower a rope, the cleric for healing up the party after combat or the rogue (again) for opening a lock while the party has to wait?
-James
no, no, no, and no
The wizard casting a spell takes half a second and everybody gets to play with the effects
The PC making a climb check leads to others making checks once the first sets them up to succeed
The cleric isn't taking away anyone's actions by declaring he is going to keep curing until the party is at full, let him roll his dice and you can roll yours for whatever you want to do while he does it
The rogue opening a door just means the party decided using knock or breaking it down weren't good for this situation, in other words collective use of the party
The rogue disarming a trap on the other hand is, "okay everyone stop" Rogue makes roll, effects happen or don't happen based on rogues roll and no one else gets to input, resume standard party activity.
No actually no bad experiences at all, the cleric making a million rolls means nothing if he interrupts no one at all while doing it.
The climb one is complicated I may need more variables to accurately explain, how high? whats the rope tied to? what are we climbing? a rope has never caused free success on climb checks for me, then again I find no use for a rope in conditions that easy
Okay I like that argument and can agree it is less disruptive, so now its become an auto-action, which means no fun for anyone and the DM has to do even more work. This may be why some DM's lost interest in traps, it became "hold on guys" *rolls* "you take damage" or "Trap disarmed" no tension, no challenge, if it kills them there was nothing they could do (I hate dying that way)
4-5 min of "rogue time" is not fair to other players unless they get theirs too. Which sucks up 20 min of game time with 4 people.
Hey everyone gets their Schtick time... those Bards get more than most :p
Random movie reference big round rock trap.
Indiana Jones needed a rogue, or he missed a dc check.
Party is raiding a theives guild or a kobold lair, probably need a rogue.
Also who remebers Gord the Rogue? What you don't remeber Gord the rogue. Time to read up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gord_the_Rogue
Dungeon crawling is still alive.
About the importance of trap finding:
In all the Adventure Paths traps are a rather uncommon occurance (at best).
And I wouldn't like to play with GMs who place a plethora of dangerous traps into their dungeons in a party with no rogues/rangers "just to show them".
But, if that is your trick, then yes, the Rogue can be useful - not as useful as an urban Ranger and only until everyone is Airwalked or the like, anyways.