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Hydraulic push:
This might be a question of RAI/RAW, but if you were to use Hydraulic Push in a wand, would the CMB always be 1 (caster level 1 + 0 bonus)? Or would it be your current level and bonus?
Similar question for Veil of Positive Energy:
You can dismiss this spell before its normal duration as a swift action on your turn to deal a number of points of positive energy damage equal to your level to all undead creatures within 5 feet of you.
Does "your level" refer to your current level or caster level of the spell (i.e. 1 for a wand)?
Creative Director
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Hydraulic push:
** spoiler omitted **This might be a question of RAI/RAW, but if you were to use Hydraulic Push in a wand, would the CMB always be 1 (caster level 1 + 0 bonus)? Or would it be your current level and bonus?
Similar question for Veil of Positive Energy:
You can dismiss this spell before its normal duration as a swift action on your turn to deal a number of points of positive energy damage equal to your level to all undead creatures within 5 feet of you.Does "your level" refer to your current level or caster level of the spell (i.e. 1 for a wand)?
In the case of wands, "your level" ALWAYS refers to the wand's caster level. You can, of course, build wands with higher caster levels. You could build a Caster Level 20th wand of hydraulic push if you wanted, but it'd be crazy expensive. And you'd have to be 20th level to do so.
For the most part, it's easiest and probably best to assume all wands are at minimum caster level though.
Hydraulic push:
** spoiler omitted **This might be a question of RAI/RAW, but if you were to use Hydraulic Push in a wand, would the CMB always be 1 (caster level 1 + 0 bonus)? Or would it be your current level and bonus?
Similar question for Veil of Positive Energy:
You can dismiss this spell before its normal duration as a swift action on your turn to deal a number of points of positive energy damage equal to your level to all undead creatures within 5 feet of you.Does "your level" refer to your current level or caster level of the spell (i.e. 1 for a wand)?
Wands are always made at the lowest level, so 1 is the correct answer. Magical staves I believe allow you to use your caster level (at least in 3.5 they did) if it were higher.
Again unless you made the wand at a higher level (and jumped the price up a lot) the answer is 1, the CL for a level 1 wand is always 1 with no stat modifiers.
Figured, but especially in the second case, it refers to just "your level" and not "your caster level", which can be quite different. Even in the case of a paladin casting it himself, would you use caster level or character level?
When casting a spell you'd only use the "class levels" that increased your caster level.
For example if the paladin had 7 levels, his caster level would be 7. But if he were a paladin 5/[PrC that didn't increase caster level] 2 his caster level would be 5, not 7.
Also, if it were two different caster classes, say paladin 5/cleric 2, paladin spells would use paladin level, cleric spells would use cleric level to determine caster level (paladin 5th level caster, cleric spells 2nd level caster)
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Figured, but especially in the second case, it refers to just "your level" and not "your caster level", which can be quite different. Even in the case of a paladin casting it himself, would you use caster level or character level?When casting a spell you'd only use the "class levels" that increased your caster level.
For example if the paladin had 7 levels, his caster level would be 7. But if he were a paladin 5/[PrC that didn't increase caster level] 2 his caster level would be 5, not 7.
Also, if it were two different caster classes, say paladin 5/cleric 2, paladin spells would use paladin level, cleric spells would use cleric level to determine caster level (paladin 5th level caster, cleric spells 2nd level caster)
Yes, but no. A paladin's caster level is equal to his paladin level minus 3.
Yes, but no. A paladin's caster level is equal to his paladin level minus 3.Figured, but especially in the second case, it refers to just "your level" and not "your caster level", which can be quite different. Even in the case of a paladin casting it himself, would you use caster level or character level?When casting a spell you'd only use the "class levels" that increased your caster level.
For example if the paladin had 7 levels, his caster level would be 7. But if he were a paladin 5/[PrC that didn't increase caster level] 2 his caster level would be 5, not 7.
Also, if it were two different caster classes, say paladin 5/cleric 2, paladin spells would use paladin level, cleric spells would use cleric level to determine caster level (paladin 5th level caster, cleric spells 2nd level caster)
Same difference :-p
Unless I'm mistaken, the affective ability score is always equal to the lowest possible score needed to cast the spell, so since hydraulic push is 1st-level, the bull rush modifier is equal to the wand's caster level plus 0 (as you would only need an 11 to cast a 1st-level spell). Is that correct?
Unless I'm mistaken, the affective ability score is always equal to the lowest possible score needed to cast the spell, so since hydraulic push is 1st-level, the bull rush modifier is equal to the wand's caster level plus 0 (as you would only need an 11 to cast a 1st-level spell). Is that correct?
Correct, and honestly I don't think magic items even allow you to include attribute bonuses. I'm not 100% sure as I haven't reverse engineered any of the high level items where it would show lately, but I believe most of the ones I've seen in published books were strictly of the 10+level of spell for the DCs and such. I'm fairly certain I've seen 2nd level scrolls published having DC 12's for instance. If attribute bumps were included they'd be a minimum of 13.
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Unless I'm mistaken, the affective ability score is always equal to the lowest possible score needed to cast the spell, so since hydraulic push is 1st-level, the bull rush modifier is equal to the wand's caster level plus 0 (as you would only need an 11 to cast a 1st-level spell). Is that correct?
Correct:
For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.
The creator can set the caster level for a wand anywhere between the minimum level for him to cast the spell and his own caster level, but campaigns that have standard prices for items generally assume that they were made at the lowest caster level available.
In some cases, this requires a decision as to which class made the item. Probably the minimum ability score means the minimum for the creator's class. For example, if a bard creates a wand of hideous laughter, its save DC is 11 (level 1 spell, minimum CHA 11). If a wizard creates such a wand, its DC is 13 (level 2 spell, minimum INT 12). The bard's wand is cheaper, as it should be.
Unless I'm mistaken, the affective ability score is always equal to the lowest possible score needed to cast the spell, so since hydraulic push is 1st-level, the bull rush modifier is equal to the wand's caster level plus 0 (as you would only need an 11 to cast a 1st-level spell). Is that correct?Correct:
For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.
This is my first post on Paizo so be gentle.
That rule specifies the saving throw is based on the lowest possible ability score. Is there any specific rule that mentions the lowest possible ability score should be used for ability references in the descriptions of spells? It seems like it could go either way as far as RAI. Two examples:
As in this thread, hydraulic push: the intention of the spell is to allow a caster to do a good combat maneuver. Without paying for an immensely high level caster level, a hydraulic push wand seems damn near useless. It would be extremely lucky rolling on the wielder's part to be successful.
But perhaps a better example: command undead. You must make an opposed charisma check to convince the undead to do something it wouldn't normally do. Charisma isn't used to cast the spell in this case so it seems people generally use the wielder's charisma.
What's the difference (if there is one)? If all ability scores in spell descriptions use lowest possible (just like for saves), what do you do with ones that aren't the score used to cast the spell? In either case, listing actual rules would be appreciated.
My personal interpretation: strict RAW. Lowest ability score is used for saves, any ability score in spell description (that isn't a save) uses the wielder's. For flavor purposes, the saving throw is determined by the mechanical nature of the wand as a device, but the ability scores mentioned in spell descriptions are based on the wielder's ability to use the spell (command undead's opposed charisma check being a good example).
But perhaps a better example: command undead. You must make an opposed charisma check to convince the undead to do something it wouldn't normally do. Charisma isn't used to cast the spell in this case so it seems people generally use the wielder's charisma.What's the difference (if there is one)? If all ability scores in spell descriptions use lowest possible (just like for saves), what do you do with ones that aren't the score used to cast the spell? In either case, listing actual rules would be appreciated.
My personal interpretation: strict RAW. Lowest ability score is used for saves, any ability score in spell description (that isn't a save) uses the wielder's. For flavor purposes, the saving throw is determined by the mechanical nature of the wand as a device, but the ability, but the ability scores mentioned in spell descriptions are based on the wielder's ability to use the spell (command undead's opposed charisma check being a good example).
Welcome to the boards!
You are correct, although my interpretation is a little difference (in terms of understanding why).
The ability score affects the spellcasting, meaning how good/strong are you able to cast it. I cases of wands, you do not affect the spells yourself, but the wand does itself.
When your own ability score comes into play, as in command undead, it is not because you affect the spell, but because the spell creates a circumstance in which you are able to excert influence on another being.
So the difference exists, when the ability score check in question is or is not related to casting the spell, or affecting its direct effect.
Welcome to the boards!
You are correct, although my interpretation is a little difference (in terms of understanding why).
Thanks. Your interpretation is kind of what I was thinking. I couldn't come up with the right words, but I think we're basically on the same page. I like the way you said it better though.
There aren't many spells that have this specific issue that I can think of, but I do think it's important. I don't think you should be able to have a shield spell that makes a perfectly good spell-in-a-jar wand and then have spells like hydraulic push be useless in wand form.
With our interpretation, a caster can get a hydraulic push wand and be pretty good at one combat maneuver (as long as he has more charges), though still not as good as a melee class that specializes in it due to the costliness of high caster level wands.
Hydraulic Push wands: See Decantur of endless water