So.. I understand that there are communities of elves/humans and their half-elven children but.. Are half-elves able to reproduce? And if they can, is it only limited to half-elves with other half-elves? Or can, say, a half-elf have a child with a human? If so, what would it be considered for game stat reasons?
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My assumptions;
half-elf + half-elf = another half-elf
half-elf + human = 50% chance of another half-elf, 50% chance of all human
half-elf + elf = 50% chance of another half-elf, 50% chance of all elf
That's just the simple version.
It's possible that elven blood is 'thin' or recessive, and a half-elf / human child would always be human, and a half-elf / elf child would always be a half-elf.
It's possible that elven blood is 'potent' or dominant, and a half-elf / human child would always be a half-elf, and a half-elf / elf child would always be an elf.
It might even vary by elven sub-type, or various persnickety factors (like presence of elvish blood father back in the human's ancestry, or of orcish blood farther back in the human's ancestry, or location, or druidic intervention, or fey mysteries, or Calistria's fickle whim).
Same for half-orcs, for the most part, and a half-orc / half-elf pairing would likely cancel out and just result in human babies, the vast majority of the (extremely rare) time.
Now, what happens when a Succubus seduces an Trumpet Archon, and a child born of 50% pure elemental evil and chaos, and 50% pure elemental good and law is conceived, I have no idea. (Possibly some sort of explosion, or the birth of a Goth Outsider, filled up with raw seething ennui.) :)
Thank you both for the quick (and early o_o) replies!! It was indeed specifically for Golarion, since I read a few things for other worlds such as Shadowrun and Forgotten Realms, and both had different ideas on this whole concept.
The dm seems to favor Mikaze's answer, so I imagine until we find something definitive we will go with that.
Again my thanks! I look forward to any other posts from other forum goers, though!! :)
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np, though I should point out that I don't mean to say that half-elves can't reproduce with humans or elves as well, just in case that's what was coming across.
I tend to roll with Set's expanded version on that matter.
If only to help lessen humanity's stigma as the "does anything that moves" race.(even if it's true)
So.. I understand that there are communities of elves/humans and their half-elven children but.. Are half-elves able to reproduce? And if they can, is it only limited to half-elves with other half-elves? Or can, say, a half-elf have a child with a human? If so, what would it be considered for game stat reasons?
Presumably, they can reproduce with other half-elves, humans, or elves. As far as what the offspring are, I'd probably just say make them a half-elf and go with it. I don't really see any benefit or even really logic to dividing up multiple kids into different races. I doubt we'd be talking about a single gene pair producing a predictable division like with Mendel's plant observations. Everything would probably average out leaving you with a decent mishmash... like the half-elf.
I've always allowed my player to choose mechanically between the half-elf, human, and elf. Genetics are capricious; a product of a union between someone with two elf grandparents and someone with three elf grandparents could very easily have traits representing any of the three.
I allow similar variety with other characters; even if your parents were both "human", I'd allow enough ancestry to peak through for you to be mechanically a half-orc, half-elf, or even a halfbreed template if appropriate. This reflects the idea that, culturally, interacting populations that can interbreed are unlikely to be pure -- there are hints of any bloodline you can imagine in there somewhere.
This is a fantasy game, and in fantasy, genetics are capricious.
I always wondered how it would turn out if half elves and half orcs were sterile (or if one of them were). I have a friend who is into biology and stuff like that and he said that when some species intermix they sometimes create a creature that can't reproduce at all. (I think the mule is an example of this)
I always wondered how it would turn out if half elves and half orcs were sterile (or if one of them were). I have a friend who is into biology and stuff like that and he said that when some species intermix they sometimes create a creature that can't reproduce at all. (I think the mule is an example of this)
On the other hand, I'm not sure, but I think Ligers are fertile. So some cross-breeds are viable.
I always wondered how it would turn out if half elves and half orcs were sterile (or if one of them were). I have a friend who is into biology and stuff like that and he said that when some species intermix they sometimes create a creature that can't reproduce at all. (I think the mule is an example of this)On the other hand, I'm not sure, but I think Ligers are fertile. So some cross-breeds are viable.
Ligars are partially fertile (iirc). I don't remember the exacts but females are (or aren't) and males are the opposite, and specific breedings come out differently.
There hasn't (to date that I'm aware of) been a liger born of two liger parents.
My house rules allow for a bit of rules-bending- with a premise rather like Set's and AvalonXQ's replies.
I gave players the option of having their half-elf "favor" either their human side or their elven side, and gave them different racial abilities based on their choices.
And of course, my own PC, a half-elf barbarian, didn't know it, but his human father's father was a half-orc! (Making his "human" father technically a quarter-orc, and him an eighth-orc!)
My house rules allow for a bit of rules-bending- with a premise rather like Set's and AvalonXQ's replies.
I gave players the option of having their half-elf "favor" either their human side or their elven side, and gave them different racial abilities based on their choices.
And of course, my own PC, a half-elf barbarian, didn't know it, but his human father's father was a half-orc! (Making his "human" father technically a quarter-orc, and him an eighth-orc!)
I bet he gets really angry when he gets called a Quadroon.
I still think it should be at a quarter or less your considered either a full human or elf. That way you can have be a human and have an elf great grandma. You would still look like a human and akward things could happen but I think some players would like it. I doubt most characters would just go out and say I have an elf great Grandma. I could see the character being embarrassed but it would be an interesting roleplay.
So one question. If you do not allow humans in your game, does this mean you also do not have Half-Elves and Half-Orcs.
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So one question. If you do not allow humans in your game, does this mean you also do not have Half-Elves and Half-Orcs.
It means that since the middleman has been cut out, elves and orcs simply have to mate with each other. Seriously, we were always a crutch for them anyway. They always wanted each other, deep down.
(for some reason allowing this in homebrew settings seems to make some people upset...no clue why)
So one question. If you do not allow humans in your game, does this mean you also do not have Half-Elves and Half-Orcs.
It means that since the middleman has been cut out, elves and orcs simply have to mate with each other. Seriously, we were always a crutch for them anyway. They always wanted each other, deep down.
In such a world, half-elves and half-orcs would be the same race! You could say that any given character of this race is racially closer to one parent than the other and thus uses the stats of the player's choice.
(for some reason allowing this in homebrew settings seems to make some people upset...no clue why)
I too, have had players become quite adamant that this pairing is impossible. I guess with all the half-fiends, half-celestials, half-elementals, and half-dragons out there.. some races keep high standards?
So one question. If you do not allow humans in your game, does this mean you also do not have Half-Elves and Half-Orcs.
It means that since the middleman has been cut out, elves and orcs simply have to mate with each other. Seriously, we were always a crutch for them anyway. They always wanted each other, deep down.
(for some reason allowing this in homebrew settings seems to make some people upset...no clue why)
Some elven tribes believe that elves mating with orcs is what created humanity in the first place... which is why there is such a strong taboo against it now.
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Some elven tribes believe that elves mating with orcs is what created humanity in the first place... which is why there is such a strong taboo against it now.So one question. If you do not allow humans in your game, does this mean you also do not have Half-Elves and Half-Orcs.
It means that since the middleman has been cut out, elves and orcs simply have to mate with each other. Seriously, we were always a crutch for them anyway. They always wanted each other, deep down.
(for some reason allowing this in homebrew settings seems to make some people upset...no clue why)
Let's take it further!
Elves and orcs were once one race split by magic/divine intervention.
Humanity is just the reuniting of the two lines of people.
Now, what happens when a Succubus seduces an Trumpet Archon, and a child born of 50% pure elemental evil and chaos, and 50% pure elemental good and law is conceived, I have no idea. (Possibly some sort of explosion, or the birth of a Goth Outsider, filled up with raw seething ennui.) :)
See the comic book Preacher for the answer to this tantalizing question.
So one question. If you do not allow humans in your game, does this mean you also do not have Half-Elves and Half-Orcs.
It means that since the middleman has been cut out, elves and orcs simply have to mate with each other. Seriously, we were always a crutch for them anyway. They always wanted each other, deep down.
In this situation, half-elves and half-orcs would be the same race! A player would choose which parent their character inherited more from to determine which set of racial stats they used.
Neat idea.
So one question. If you do not allow humans in your game, does this mean you also do not have Half-Elves and Half-Orcs.
It means that since the middleman has been cut out, elves and orcs simply have to mate with each other. Seriously, we were always a crutch for them anyway. They always wanted each other, deep down.
(for some reason allowing this in homebrew settings seems to make some people upset...no clue why)
See The Lord of the Rings for the TRUE history of the elf/orc divide.
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In this situation, half-elves and half-orcs would be the same race! A player would choose which parent their character inherited more from to determine which set of racial stats they used.Neat idea.
I wonder if a mix and match of a pool of traits could be feasible.
Kid might have his father's eyes and his mother's tusks.
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See The Lord of the Rings for the TRUE history of the elf/orc divide.So one question. If you do not allow humans in your game, does this mean you also do not have Half-Elves and Half-Orcs.
It means that since the middleman has been cut out, elves and orcs simply have to mate with each other. Seriously, we were always a crutch for them anyway. They always wanted each other, deep down.
(for some reason allowing this in homebrew settings seems to make some people upset...no clue why)
Actually I think that's the core of the problem. Too many people believe that has to be the canon for every setting that involves elves and orcs.
Any time anyone tries something different with these races, wailing and gnashing of teeth happens.
For breeding, at least by 3.5 rules, from Races of Destiny page 39:
When two half-elves breed, the progeny is another half-elf.
And here is how it was printed in the 2nd Ed Player's Handbook:
The relationship between elf, human and half-elf is defined as follows: 1) Anyone with both elven and human ancestors is either a human or a half-elf (elves have only elven ancestors). 2) If there are more human ancestors than elven, the person is human; if there are equal numbers of more elves, the person is half-elven.
Why something like this did not survive the transition from 2nd to 3rd Ed, I do not know, but the basics of it did eventually show up in that other WotC book.
Also, from a more fluff viewpoint, from the Golarion Campaign Setting book on page 11:
The term half-elf is deceptive, for only a fraction of creatures so labeled come from the offspring of a human and elf parent. Others are
many generations removed from the original coupling, yet exhibit traits of one race or the other that ensure they never quite fit in either.
And because I finally decided to look here too, the Pathfinder Core Book on page 24:
Half-elves can breed with one another, but even these “pureblood” half-elves tend to be viewed as bastards by humans and elves alike.
Ah well, like my version better
If your human = You are not let into the world by portal, if you do get in somehow your jettisoned to the deep astral plane 1 round later :) POOF !!
If your a Half-Elf = 1) You take after your human side, see the note about humans. 2) You take after your elf side, you turn into a full Elf.
If your a Half-Orc = 1) You take after your human side, see the note about humans. 2) You take after your orc side, you turn into a full orc.
All well that end's well :)
I don't think that Paizo has defined the answer for Golarion, and I find it highly unlikely that they feel a need to do so. The progeny of mixed elven and human heritages will be determined by the individual stories they write not some cold equation.
Other than what I quoted earlier from the Core Book and the current version of the Campaign Setting book, I could not find any more details on half-elves, including in Elves of Golarion. Maybe Humans of Golarion will say more.
Don't forget about the feat in the APG that allows you to identify another race as a partial lineage if you're human. It would be a good way to fill out humans born from human+half-elves.
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Easy and simple--
Human breeds with an elf. Genes are EE and HH in the parents. All results are EH i.e. a half elf.
Half elf breeds with another half elf, the results are EE(25%) EH(50%) or HH (25%).
Half elf breeds with Human, possible results are EH, EH and HH and HH. Half Elf with an Elf works the same way. Results are EH, EH, EE and EE. In both cases there is a 50% chance of a given kid being the race of either parent.
Half Elf/Half Orc children would have the possibility of OE, OH, EH and HH. I think all but the HH would miscarry, making such children extremely rare and technically human, though you might allow someone to use the adopted trait to pick up darkvision or something like that, though it technically wouldn't be an 'adoption'.
Slightly more complicateed addendum--
Of course even a 'human' (or elf) descended from a half elf might still carry some elven traits, things like family tendancy to die at age 110 or have shiny silky hair etc. Nothing mechanical, but if I were designing such a family as NPCs, more then a few would have slightly higher scores in Dex or Int, have the 'magic gene' etc. If there is a human population where there are several such families and couple such 'humans' marry, there is enough such traits that every once in a while (say 1 in 10) that enough of those recessive elven traits combine to create a half elf.
Let's take it further!
Elves and orcs were once one race split by magic/divine intervention.
Humanity is just the reuniting of the two lines of people.
Naw, we clearly do it scientifically, the Arcanum way ;p
Elves, humans, and orcs were all originally the same race. However, those forest tribes, due to living in highly magical forests, began undergoing radical evolution from the infusion of magic into their own genes, thus leading to the development of "elves" - and leading to the answer of there being "half elves."
Orcs on the other hand spent more time in magical-retardant areas; or rather, areas that were infused with magic, but it was a sort of "anti-magic," a dead magic zone in D&D terms, causing them to evolve differently as well, building up strength and anti-magic genetic capabilities as well as a shorter lifespan. Their connection to humans leads to there being "Half-orcs."
However, the combinations are due to humanity being the common ancestor; both races are still close enough to humans to allow for interspecial mating, while the two are two different from each other to allow for half-orc half-elf children.
Of course, the elves are none too happy with the suggestion that not only is humanity one of the oldest species in the world, but that they, elves, are one of the youngest.
I have a character that hits on women in bars by saying:
"Hey baby, I'm a half-orc... the bottom half *wink*"
Vaguely green and covered in copious amounts of hair?
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The progeny of mixed elven and human heritages will be determined by the individual stories they write not some cold equation.Well as soon as you slap racial modifiers on something, you are producing cold hard numbers, not stories, and you need a damned equation or some dude will wonder if his .22%human gets +2 anywhere and maybe +1 Dex and +1 Int.
Anyway, that wasn't just Greyhawk, that was the whole D&D multiverse for awhile. I said see if Golarion has a better answer if your Pathfinder game is run there.
Answer, is to keep it simple and cover the general situation with broad outlines; sex between an elf and human makes a half elf and treat special situations like quarter elves as special situations; i.e. not ejudicated by the rules.
I have a half-elf character who is horrifically racist against humans and elves. Both his parents are half-elves, which he believes is the superior race.
He's hilarious.
That is funny and something not done everyday.