I'v been looking at animals lately (primarily the great cats) and have noticed some things that don't jive with what these animals can actually do.
For example, the Crocodile only does 1d8(+4 from str) with its bite as opposed to a Tiger that does 2d6(+6).
Crocodiles have the most powerful bite in the animal kingdom and yet in the game they're rather pathetic.
Also, Jaguars have the most powerful bite (highest psi) of any of the cats and pound-for-pound is the strongest yet they have been relegated to share stats with the Leopard which does 1d6(+3) with a bite (as it should because it is one of the weaker, and more timid, of the cats).
I am attempting to bring the animals' statistics more in line with how they are relative to each other in reality.
However, I'm trying to decide to just increase the bite damage (and perhaps STR as well) of the creatures that are weaker than they should be or should the Tiger be reduced somewhat so that the other animals are not so extreme?
For Jaguar I'm thinking:
Medium Animal
STR 22 (because if it's supposed to be pound for pound the strongest of the cats then treat it like a size M Tiger +1?)
DEX 17 (not quite as agile as a Leopard but more so than a Tiger. The same as a Lion)
CON 17 (not sure if I should go with a lower number, 16 or 15)
INT 2
WIS 12
CHA 6
I'm thinking 4HD but not sure. Leopard has 3hd, lion 5, tiger 6.
Bite 2d8? Or maybe reduce the Tiger to 1d10 and make the Jaguar 2d6?
Claws 1d4? Maybe 1d6. From what little I could find about Jaguar's Claws they seem to be about the same size as a Lion's. Maybe a little bigger.
For the Crocodile:
Increase bite damage to 2d10 and leave Str the same
OR
Increase bite damage to 2d6 or 2d8 and increase Str to 23?
Opinions?
Do it.
Do it.
Haha. Do what? I have a lot of questions in the Spoilers.
I clicked on this expecting a heated debate on druid animal companions' DPR or something. But that may be because three of my four players are jealous of the druid's bear's claw/claw/bite routine and I'm used to hearing complaints.
I hadn't considered this, but sounds like a very valid point. However, I would note that if you want to increase the damage to the bite, that you should also consider putting some sort of note in the stat block about holding the thing's mouth closed to disable the bite. You can do it with two fingers. The downward pressure breaks bones, iirc, but the muscles that pull it open are pathetically weak.
...you should also consider putting some sort of note in the stat block about holding the thing's mouth closed to disable the bite. You can do it with two fingers. The downward pressure breaks bones, iirc, but the muscles that pull it open are pathetically weak.
That is a good point. I've never had a player say they wanted to hold a creature's mouth closed to keep it from biting before. I think a grapple check would be a good solution. If you win then you can hold it's mouth closed. Of course, this would be really effective on the crocodile but in the case of the cats this doesn't stop them from clawing you.
...you should also consider putting some sort of note in the stat block about holding the thing's mouth closed to disable the bite. You can do it with two fingers. The downward pressure breaks bones, iirc, but the muscles that pull it open are pathetically weak.That is a good point. I've never had a player say they wanted to hold a creature's mouth closed to keep it from biting before. I think a grapple check would be a good solution. If you win then you can hold it's mouth closed. Of course, this would be really effective on the crocodile but in the case of the cats this doesn't stop them from clawing you.
This is only a particular weakness of the crocodile as far as I know. I wouldn't extend it to the cats.
I would also modify just the Jaguar's bite damage, and leave everything else as-is. Modifying the STR score as well changes far more mechanics than necessary (to hit, CMB/D, skills, etc). A STR of 16 actually outperforms RL Jaguars by more than double, based on Wikipedia and the lift/drag formulas. How much you trust those sources are up to you of course. :)
Edit to add: What gets my goat isn't the lack of representation of the Jaguar. Personally, I find the Leopard stats are good enough. No, the problem is that the Druid/Ranger Small Cat companion defaults to the Cheetah, despite the fact that there are significant mechanical differences between the two.
I would also modify just the Jaguar's bite damage, and leave everything else as-is. Modifying the STR score as well changes far more mechanics than necessary (to hit, CMB/D, skills, etc). A STR of 16 actually outperforms RL Jaguars by more than double, based on Wikipedia and the lift/drag formulas. How much you trust those sources are up to you of course. :)
I've read that a Jaguar can be expected to be able to drag around 800lbs. Give it the benefit of the doubt and say a big one can drag 1000 and that puts it at a 12-13 STR score.
As far as lift/drag, the Tiger is way over statted. A large Tiger would be able to drag a Gaur (largest of them average 3300 lbs) for a few meters. I would be willing to give the tiger the benefit of the doubt that it could drag 4000lbs but at a 23str for a quadruped this makes it able to drag 9000lbs. That's more than twice what is believable.
An 18 STR would actually put a Tiger's drag ability more in line with reality using the Pathfinder calculations.
Perhaps Tiger's STR needs to be toned down somewhat?
Or maybe cats need to be treated like Bi-peds instead of quadrupeds. If the math is done as a biped then it puts the average Tiger's drag limit at 3000lbs. That's more in line with reality.
Crocodile's drag ability is about right I think as a quadruped with a 19str maybe a little high but close enough.
An aside about carrying capacities:
The real problem here is the weight system used in D&D/Pathfinder. It's based on STR and size category so it's a bit unrealistic. If it was based on STR and weight then it would work better. I actually prefer an old carrying capacity table that was designed for AD&D. It's calculations are a little more realistic. I may put that up as another thread.
Edit to add: What gets my goat isn't the lack of representation of the Jaguar. Personally, I find the Leopard stats are good enough. No, the problem is that the Druid/Ranger Small Cat companion defaults to the Cheetah, despite the fact that there are significant mechanical differences between the two.
Oh yeah I see what you mean. It says Cat, Small (Cheetah, Leopard) but it stats out a small size Cheetah. Leopard should have its own stat block in the animal companion section because they have different entries in the Bestiary.
Creative Director
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To a certain extent, our goal of compatibility with the previous edition locked us in on monster redesign. ESPECIALLY for animals, who are so intrinsic an element for some classes; redesigning monsters would have meant, at the very least, redesigning the summon nature's ally spells; by the time we realized that some of the monsters (particularly the gorilla and dire gorilla, but some others) could have benefited from some CR adjustments it was too late.
If an animal seems off to you, though, you're doing the exact right thing by redesigning the creature. You can even keep the old stats around by simply renaming them; the crocodile could become a caiman, for example.
Edit: as a side note, when I saw the title I was expecting a thread discussing how the HP of horses and guard animals are static and relatively low compared to PCs and the threats threats they face.
It does seem that I may have made a bad choice in thread title. Do you think it might be discouraging people from reading it? Maybe I should make a new one that's more clear and re-post this stuff?
This is a sample of a range of animals with varying bite powers. I have determined damage starting with a Dog of the ability of a Rottweiler or German Shepherd as the base. I scaled damage based on the bite force of the animals.
What do you think? Some of them feel high but compared to the other animals’ it seems right.
Animals in order of bite force (psi highest to lowest):
Tyrannosaurus – 15000 : 27d6
Crocodile – 4500-5000 : 9d6
Great White Shark – 4000-4500 : 8d6
Hippopotamus – 2000+ : 4d6
Caiman/Alligator – 2000+ : 4d6
Jaguar – 2000 : 4d6
Gorilla – 1300-1400 : 2d12 (lift up to 4000lbs so about a 27 str for a large gorilla)
Siberian Tiger – 1200+ : 2d10
Kodiak Bear – 1100-1200 : 2d8
Hyena – 900-1000 : 2d6
Black Bear – 700-800 : 1d10
Lion – 700 : 1d8
Leopard – 400-500 : 1d6
Dog (German Shepherd, Rotweiler) – 300-400 : 1d4
Human – 170 : 1d2 (non lethal)
Strength scores are estimated based on known carrying/lifting/dragging weights and on estimates of strength compared to humans. Feel free to critique it. That’s why it’s here.
Tyrannosaurus – 26 (probably able to drag around 4-5 tons)
Crocodile – 19 (able to drag a 3000 lb Bison)
Great White Shark – I’m not sure how to measure the strength of an aquatic creature so would probably have to stick with the Bestiary estimate.
Hippopotamus – 19? (How strong is a 6000 lb animal that hangs out in the water most of the time?)
Caiman/Alligator – 19 (even if the bite isn’t as powerful, they should be about the same general strength as the crocodile. Depending on size)
Jaguar – 13 (able to drag upwards of 1000lbs)
Gorilla – 27 (lift up to 4000lbs)
Siberian Tiger – 18 (drag upwards of 4000lbs)
Kodiak Bear – 29
Hyena – 11
Black Bear – 25 (on average, are said to be 8 times as strong as a man)
Lion – 17
Leopard – 11
Dog (German Shepherd, Rotweiler) – 11
Human – 10-11
Am i reading this right in that you are saying you want to give the Tyrannosaurus a 27d6 damage bite attack?
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Am i reading this right in that you are saying you want to give the Tyrannosaurus a 27d6 damage bite attack?
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What would you suggest giving a creature that has a 15000 psi (3x that of a crocodile) bite?
As I said. I am open to suggestions.
As a primary suggestion I would scale the damage down on those. What you are seeing is only a drawback of determining attack damage purely by creature size. All creatures of the same size have the same base damage for a natural attack. If you want to beef up animals like jaguars and crocodiles, try giving them improved natural attack instead of one of their other feats, or even give it to them as a "racial" feat. Also for some you could just house rule that certain bite attacks are also 1 1/2 x strength, even if the creature has more than one primary natural attack.
This post is getting too long, so debate/arguements are attached if you want to read them.
Keep in mind, damage scales were originally based on how easily something would kill a level 1 human npc (and I mean going all the way back to AD&D). A great axe (1d12) is going to remove limbs. Even a leopard (1d6+3 as mention) is going to maim, cripple, and possibly kill your average level 1 commoner. Maybe not in one hit, but actually, animals rarely outright kill anything in one shot. A crocodiles bite strength is massive indeed, but while it breaks bones, it doesn't often amputate limbs, and the majority of victims either drown during the death roll (grapple checks and drowning rules) or from blood loss. Sharks for example do more damage from a bit than almost anything else, even the small ones (a 1-3 foot black tip reef shark might take your hand or foot off outright).
I wouldn't alter the Strength, and here is why:
You also run into the issue of having to augment combat maneuvers on behalf of the animal, or you are going to get your 18 strength fighter easily wrestling your jaguar to the ground and into submission. Not that he couldn't do it now, but if you want realism, that should be a very dead fighter.
Am i reading this right in that you are saying you want to give the Tyrannosaurus a 27d6 damage bite attack?
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What would you suggest giving a creature that has a 15000 psi (3x that of a crocodile) bite?
As I said. I am open to suggestions.
The only thing i can offer to that, is that you are ignoring the 'abstracted' nature of how combat itself works, and the 'vague' definition of hit points. If you are comparing 'real world' keep in mind that you won't find anyone over level 2.
As written, the bite of a Tyrannosaur in the bestiary will kill any level 2 NPC class virtually outright. As, in your upgraded version, you seem to believe they should.
With the game emulating 'heroic' roleplaying, you get an action movie. So when the tyrannosaur charges and chomps down, the hero PC dodges only partially, gets smacked with the side of the jaws instead of bitten in two and tumbles 10 feet to slam into a wall...that is still 'damage'. It's bruising, numbing, impact, and uses up a bit of a given PC's 'luck'(depending on how you personally envision hit points as being defined. i personally view it as a combination).
If the tyrannosaur gets the finishing blow in and the damage is fatal, that's when it manages to chomp down and bring 150,000 psi (000,000...etc) to bear and its a gory, messy, end.
That is my perspective on it anyways.
Hope it helped!, and sorry it was lengthy.
A a note on the very first post, your stat block on the Jaguar ability scores looks almost right...I would make strength 18, maybe 20 though, and probably put con at 15...lions and tigers con is as much a function of their size as endurance. Bite I would make 1d8, I would keep claws at 1d4, their real forte is that bite. 4HD sounds about right.
A lot of good stuff.
Yes that is a good point. I think I'll do that. The animals with more powerful bites get Improved Natural Attack and 1.5x STR on their bites. That way their bite power is better represented but they're not so overpowered that they will necessarily kill a 2nd level fighter outright. Not that the Fighter should be getting that close to a crocodile. :D
This would put the Crocodile at 1d10+6. I'm also going to lower its tail slap damage to 1d8 (from 1d12) though because there's no way its tail does more damage than its bite.
Jaguar at 1d8+4
Hyena at 1d8+3
Probably do the same for dinosaurs and sharks.
I still think the Tiger may be represented as overpowered in the Bestiary but I guess it's bite damage could be justified by its 2.5-4in canines so I'll leave it alone. Your weight rationalization as far as drag goes is good to.
I'll leave Bears alone. 21str gives them about 4x capacity of an average human and large size gives them the rest so they're actually good.
I'm trying to rationalize Gorillas though. If a Gorilla (size L) can lift 4000lbs then it would have to have a 26-27 STR instead of the 15 listed in the Bestiary.
Also, Gorillas need a Bite attack because they actually have a very dangerous bite. Look at those teeth!
I'm thinking a 1d4 for Bite damage. That massive STR would give a lot of extra crush to it. Maybe leave the bite as a secondary attack and have it only to .5 x STR. So if it managed to bite it would do 1d4+4 but it's slam would be well represented with 1d6+8.
Maybe its slam should be non-lethal damage though. It is basically a punch after all.
A a note on the very first post, your stat block on the Jaguar ability scores looks almost right...I would make strength 18, maybe 20 though, and probably put con at 15...lions and tigers con is as much a function of their size as endurance. Bite I would make 1d8, I would keep claws at 1d4, their real forte is that bite. 4HD sounds about right.
If I gave them the 1d8 bite via Improved Natural Attack and allow the bite to do 1.5x damage instead of increasing their overall STR, think that will cover the bite without changing the rest of it too much?
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The former farmboy (who raised big cats for an animal park) in me just shudders at the statistics for various animals.
It's probably easier to just throw your hands up and accept that the attributes are designed to work for the game, mechanically, and provide appropriate challenges, and not at all meant to simulate real-world animals or science.
Great cats, for instance, do negligible damage with their claws (to their prey, anyway, being primarily tools to grab onto and bring down the animal, not 'cut it up'), and generally suffocate their prey (or break the necks of smaller prey), not 'slash it to death' or 'stab it with their teeth until it dies.'
The poison rules are similarly just nutty. They exist as rules to add to the game, not to simulate real-world poisons.
Insects, arachnids, even *worms,* can be trained, and even develop craft skills, and, in D&D, they are 'mindless.' That just drives me crazy, since the developers then have to go invent new exceptions to explain how drow, duergar, etc. train giant spiders, or how 'this domain lets you influence vermin with your mind-affecting spells!'
Just about every animal would need to be re-written, and a lot of sacred cows would need butchering to make 'realistic' animals. I don't think it's worth it. We're gonna be throwing fireballs at them, and riding dinosaurs into battle, so I think it's safe to just avert one's eyes to the fantastical attributes and attack routines of various D&D exp-bags that happen to share the names of real-world animals.
And when I first saw the thread title, I thought it was asking what damage type various animal attacks did (B for trample, S for claws, P for bites, etc.). Everyone has their own crazy idea what that title meant...
Just to completely contradict myself, for a low-magic style game, where other people, and wild animals, might be the most fantastic foes one generally faces (saving the exotic stuff for the mind-blowing final encounter, to keep them rare and exciting), I'd *totally* beef up the animals, as you suggest in the OP.
Wolves using real wolf-pack tactics (wolf in front of you using total defense, wolves to your sides using aid other to harry you, while the wolf behind you goes for the kill), could be quite frustrating. You turn around, and they switch roles, with the one you are facing going defensive, or even withdrawing, letting the one that is *now* behind you get in a free bite on your backside.
To DrDew, that would work pretty well for jaguars. I might still give them strength 18 though.
As for Tigers, the stats are based on Siberians and Bengal tigers, with male Siberians often reaching 400-500lbs. They have been known in the past (50 years ago and longer) to get bigger than that but trophy hunting and poaching for the 'medicine' trade has pretty has pretty much selected those out of existence.
Gorillas have nasty looking teeth, but they generally don't use them to fight, they are for intimidation display. Their jaws are also too small to bite as effectively as many creatures with a muzzle.
The poison rules are similarly just nutty. They exist as rules to add to the game, not to simulate real-world poisons.
yeah thankfully, if poisons were as lethal as they are in RL, no one would want to play...diseases are another good example...take rabies in the dog entry: In RL once you ARE showing symptoms, you don't get better, and there is no cure.