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I'm getting ready to run the troll lair encounter and I'm rather concerned for my players survival here, especially once they encounter Hargulka. Please let me know if I'm overestimating the results for this guys actions.
edit: My party is a sorcerer, bard, barbarian + wizard/cleric all at the end of 5th lvl or beginning of 6th)
I foresee them being totally unable to sneak up on him (the sounds of combat getting to him and his Scent + perception makes that nearly impossible at their level) so no surprise round so the fight is going to start off fairly straightforward.
Him doing an Intimidate (Demoralize option) against the party and an average result of 30 is going to give my whole team a shaken condition for about 4 rounds (+16 intimidate +4 for size + avg roll of 10 = 30 against avg 14-16 DC for party = 1+3 rnds of shaken).
Then he'll use his attack action(reach is murder especially with that narrow hallway to get into his room) to trip the biggest melee player he can (his regen will let him recover from the AoO this provokes) and when they try to stand or retreat he'll power attack + Vital Strike for 4D6+15 against the downed tank or striker (-4 to his AC +4 to hit against him is going to hit).
After that it's just going to be Trip attacks leading into PA/VS against the downed melee characters and reach backed cleaves against the squishy casters as they try to get out of AoO range.
I really don't see how they could win this fight without getting obscenely lucky and surprising him.
Intimidate only hits one opponent unless he has dazzling display (afb).
Intimidate isn't a move action so that's it for that round, meaning the PCs get to act -- one source of fire or acid and his regen isn't so great any more -- of course (iirc) his AC isn't wonderful either.
Tripping could be an issue but he can fail (if unlikely).
Vital striking is a very poor choice since it only increases his dice damage (nothing else) and he could instead full attack with claws and a bite.
Do me a favor real quick and post up his stats (feats, AC, HP would be enough really) and your parties stats.
my party took down Hargulka insanely quickly but we ended up with a rather scarily effective party. My suggestion for you here is to add more to the character of Hargulka. He has an army of trolls and its not like anyone will be getting past the two headed monstrosity, so he will just stay in the throne room, overconfidant and lazy, if anyone makes it past the others then he will just lob a fireball from his throne. If they manage to survive that then he will get up and close in. That way it give your party a pretty nasty opener that really sets off the encounter because fireball is always an attention getter. and it gives the party a round of hargulka in his throne to do as they want.
and just to make sure its just a +4 to hit a prone target. not a +4 to hit and -4 to their ac.
yeah Hargulka is right powerful bastard, but you dont have to have him coming out at 100%, give the party a chance to be heroes.
oh something I just remembered... my party was CERTAIN that the two headed troll was the leader, so they went on ahead expecting a treasure room and instead found Hargulka and the rock troll... the reaction that there were stronger fighters left... priceless expressions on their faces i must say.
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Well according to the book Intimidate actually states opponent(s) with no limit on how many it affects only that they need to be within 30 feet for it to affect them. I've always used it as a potent opener and it's only a standard action so use it as an opener and then either use a move action to get into melee range or just take a standard action to attack or Cleave if you have it.
As for prone your right I misread that it only gives a -4 penalty to ac against melee attacks.
Vital strike can be a poor choice at times but if you only have a standard action left (during the rnd when you use intimidate or you are making an AoO) or if you need to stay mobile to avoid multiple opponents ganging up on you or getting full attack actions it's a nice chunk of extra damage on a single attack. Especially when you have reach, each AoO just got twice as nasty. A PA+VS crit from hargulka can do 80pts of damage on a single AoO (base damge 2D6+9, VS 4D6+9, VS+PA 4D6+15, crit 8D6+30) and with reach he'll get a regular attack plus a AoO every rnd. He's better off making just a standard attack + move every rnd instead of a Full attack, he'll do more damage, take less damage and keep the casters moving around avoiding his AoO's instead of casting.
I was going to throw Tartuk into the room as a spellcasting ally for him (since he survived the first run in and has been a thorn in the party's side ever since) but I'm worried that would be way to difficult on the party.
Hargulka CR 8
Intimidate +16, Percept +6
humanoid (giant)
Init +1; CMB +16; CMD 27
AC: 20, Tch: 10 Flat: 19
Melee: +1 darkwood thundering morningstar +16/+11 (2d6+9), claw
+12 (1d6+4), bite +12 (1d8+4)
Special Attacks: rend (2 claws, 1d6+8)
Reach: 10’ Spd: 30’
Fort: +12 Ref: +4, Will: +4;
+1 vs. fear
HP: 109 (6d8+3d10+66); regeneration 5 (acid or fire)
Feats: Cleave, Power
Attack, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (morningstar)
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Well according to the book Intimidate actually states opponent(s) with no limit on how many it affects only that they need to be within 30 feet for it to affect them. I've always used it as a potent opener and it's only a standard action so use it as an opener and then either use a move action to get into melee range or just take a standard action to attack or Cleave if you have it.
Do a search on these forums and you will find the topics where the designers weighed in, confirming that the demoralise use of intimidate is single target only.
Also, if you treat it as no limit then whats the point of the Dazzling Display feat? Why would a feat have been designed purely to enable something that the skill already allows you to do?
Well according to the book Intimidate actually states opponent(s) with no limit on how many it affects only that they need to be within 30 feet for it to affect them. I've always used it as a potent opener and it's only a standard action so use it as an opener and then either use a move action to get into melee range or just take a standard action to attack or Cleave if you have it.
As for prone your right I misread that it only gives a -4 penalty to ac against melee attacks.
Vital strike can be a poor choice at times but if you only have a standard action left (during the rnd when you use intimidate or you are making an AoO) or if you need to stay mobile to avoid multiple opponents ganging up on you or getting full attack actions it's a nice chunk of extra damage on a single attack. Especially when you have reach, each AoO just got twice as nasty. A PA+VS crit from hargulka can do 80pts of damage on a single AoO (base damge 2D6+9, VS 4D6+9, VS+PA 4D6+15, crit 8D6+30) and with reach he'll get a regular attack plus a AoO every rnd. He's better off making just a standard attack + move every rnd instead of a Full attack, he'll do more damage, take less damage and keep the casters moving around avoiding his AoO's instead of casting.
I was going to throw Tartuk into the room as a spellcasting ally for him (since he survived the first run in and has been a thorn in the party's side ever since) but I'm worried that would be way to difficult on the party.
Hargulka CR 8
Intimidate +16, Percept +6
humanoid (giant)
Init +1; CMB +16; CMD 27
AC: 20, Tch: 10 Flat: 19
Melee: +1 darkwood thundering morningstar +16/+11 (2d6+9), claw
+12 (1d6+4), bite +12 (1d8+4)
Special Attacks: rend (2 claws, 1d6+8)
Reach: 10’ Spd: 30’
Fort: +12 Ref: +4, Will: +4;
+1 vs. fear
HP: 109 (6d8+3d10+66); regeneration 5 (acid or fire)
Feats: Cleave, Power
Attack, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (morningstar)
There is feat that is specifically made to allow you to intimidate multiple opponents so that lead to you only being able to intimidate one person without the feat. He does decent damage, but his defense is not so good.
@ the OP-->His will save is only a + 4. Hold Person could end the fight rather quickly.
it's only a standard action so use it as an opener and then either use a move action to get into melee range or just take a standard action to attack or Cleave if you have it.
You can't take another standard action after performing a standard action. Move + standard is OK, but not standard + standard....
Yeah I'm not seeing anything that says "I can't be dropped" on that write up. At level 5 an AC 20 shouldn't be hard at all. Those save throws are begging to be hit hard with glitterdust or hold person. He has decent HP but the regen will be easy to end with fire or acid damage -- if nothing else the wizard can just sit back and acid splash it each round.
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He's not unbeatable, especially if the PC's get drop on him, initiative wise.
Charmed trolls, a dwarven barbarian, and acidballs tore through his HP very quickly in my game.
He is the boss, so if he kills a PC, well, thems the breaks. I don't see him, barring very unlucky dice, taking out the whole party.
He did wipe my party last week and it came down to some poor rolls, notably the Dwarven Fighter failing his saves on the 3 fireballs Hargulka dropped on the group. Luckily for hero points and being left for dead or the whole adventure path would've been kaput.
To be honest, if the group had scouted ahead and not lost initiative it probably would've been an easy fight. It also compounded their problem that they did not have a wizard in the group. On a scale of 1 to 10 I see him only as a 6.
We just finished this encounter in our game too. My PCs didn't really have too hard a time with him but that's mostly because our Ranger has favoured enemy humanoid(giant) +4.
Although no one in our party has the spell, a single fireball has a good chance to drop him in one round. If he fails the save, his necklace can blow up dealing an additional 20d6 fire damage. There are lots of other spell effects that can end the fight very quickly like charm person or hold person. Hideous Laughter can be pretty sick too (our sorcerer can cast this at DC 20 at 5th level).
If he spends his first round trying to demoralize one PC, then the whole party gets their actions and those who beat his initiative get a second action before he makes any attacks. A decent 6th level party should have a good chance at this point.
Also - Vital Strike is supposed to be a standard action so it cannot be used for an AoO. Power attack is also to be used on his own turn (then last until his next turn) so he would take the penalty on his trip attempt.
Despite this, he's probably better off just taking full attacks hoping to drop them one at a time.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I loved this fight. It was perhaps the most cinematic of the whole AP so far.
I rolled troll random encounters probably 4 times in the first book. The first time he came and ate all of their horses and robbed them blind. The second time, he managed to kill their horses and chase them off but was severely wounded. The third time was a stalemate and both the party and the troll fled. The fourth time they drove him off.
Two years later, they encounter him as Halgurka, the troll who made good. They had expected it for a while as many of the trolls had bits of equipment they had lost (especially signal whistles).
The party members were surprised by him and mostly failed their reflex saves when he threw the big fireball at them.
He chased them through the compound where they used the feather tokens (tree) to slow his progress. Eventually they were all in one smaller room when the sorcerer burned him with flaming sphere causing the remaining fireballs to ignite. Save after save was rolled and almost all of the party members were in the negatives....but Halgurka was dead.
It is a fun tough fight and one of my favorites.
Vital Strike is an attack action- not any attack. You don't get it on an AoO. This will make a big difference in that fight..
-S
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Yeah, he wound up not being as terrifying as I thought though he did manage to drop our full plate wearing tank in a single round. Trip as an AoO and then straight into a power attack driven full attack action on the downed tank, 53 points of damage was more then he could take and pfft.
At this point the party wizards throw their feather tokens sealed off the corridor he was in and lobbed every alchemist fire, fire spell and hot rock the could find and burned him alive in there.
He hit like a tank but against touch AC attacks he dropped like a lame kobold with asthma. Need a new tank now though, the old one decided to roll up a bard as a replacement.
This encounter also had me worried a bit, but in the end, my party defeated him almost effortless!
The opening of the fight was the wizard flinging a fireball, the Troll-king failing his save, and then his magic item ALSO failing it's save, demolishing everyone and everything in the room.
Unexpected surprise for the party when I rolled an addition 40-or-so d6's when the fireball struck!!
How many PCs were inside the blast?
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The way I read this encounter, it's going to get much tougher if any of the trolls work together instead of staying in their lairs and letting the party pick them off one by one.
The text seems to be intended to downplay their cooperative abilities, but even one or two of the heavies rushing to the sound of a fight (and likely catching the party from another direction) could change the equation appreciably.
The way I read this encounter, it's going to get much tougher if any of the trolls work together instead of staying in their lairs and letting the party pick them off one by one.
The text seems to be intended to downplay their cooperative abilities, but even one or two of the heavies rushing to the sound of a fight (and likely catching the party from another direction) could change the equation appreciably.
I just ran this encounter and it did not turn out as expected! The group was less than stealthy, loudly challenging everything in their path.
The trolls massed together blocking the pc's in a intersection in the troll lair. To make things worse, I had the king get involved in the battle early, he tried to use his necklace of fireballs on the party and it would have hit them all for 8d6 damage. Except for the natural one that I rolled.
After the trolls roasted themselves, the battle sorted itself out neatly.
I had the king get involved in the battle early, he tried to use his necklace of fireballs on the party and it would have hit them all for 8d6 damage. Except for the natural one that I rolled.
After the trolls roasted themselves, the battle sorted itself out neatly.
Awesome. I have thought it a bit insane that Hargulka would walk around with a necklace of fireballs around his neck. Bit like a vampire wearing one of those beer helmets but with holy water vials inside instead.
