Alternate magic systems


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Does anyone employ one or more (such as those supplied with Conan and/or Iron Heroes) in their D&D/Pathfinder game, rather than using the material provided? Have you instead extensively house-ruled the 3.5/3.75 framework into something of which you now approve, or at least better tolerate?

If so, why did you choose to go that direction? Does Vancian magic make you cringe? Are D&D casters too powerful/not powerful enough for your liking? Did you and/or your players simply prefer a system better suited to your style?

Lastly, how are your decisions working out? Is your campaign a popular and engrossing one? Do players complain about spell-casters having been nerfed/buffed?

I'm making no judgments here. Having been out of the game-mastering loop for quite some time, I'm just curious as to why some of my peers made the decisions they did, and whether one of these other possibilities might appeal to me.

Note that if you're satisfied with what's been provided by 3.5/3.75, there's no need to post either in their defense, or to inform me/anyone else that they should be using another game if this one's magic system doesn't suit. I'm not looking to engage in a debate over subjective takes on 'superiority', 'realism' or the proper level of magic in a campaign. This is simple information gathering.

Thanks in advance to all who participate.

Liberty's Edge

I do not yet employ an alternate magic system. But I'm working on one that seems viable (you can see it in this thread).

I don't mind Vancian magic. The power level of D&D casters doesn't bother me much. What bothers me is that the magic system and the rest of the whole dang game are two completely different things. And they don't interface well with each other. If you want to do something, you need to roll a d20 and add a modifier. Then you compare that modifier to some DC. That's the 3.X/Pathfinder system, and it works fine. But the magic system doesn't use it! All players have to know two different games: Pathfinder/D&D, and the Magic System. I don't like that, and I'm trying to unify their mechanics a bit.

Right now my group is in an experimental stage. We're experimenting with small changes, working our way up to big changes. Almost none of the changes in my "Yet Another Alternate Magic System" have been tested.


I have experimented with various alternate magic systems, mostly skill based but far more often in modern settings - still using d20 however. Have had some published even. These tend to work fine, but the expectation of power levels is very different. I have yet to play a long term campaign in a fantasy setting with one, however, mainly because it winds up being a lot of work to convert stuff. Its easier just to grab things from all of the published sources and use it than redo everything.

No wait, I take that back. I have done one campaign in a fantasy setting that went on a long time. It was, however, very low magic and I used the Call of Cthulhu d20 rules for the magic there - with some feats to allow for some resistance to the negative effects of casting. In the end the one player who had been something of a caster swapped characters and all the magic use was by NPCs.

Liberty's Edge

Lyrax wrote:

I do not yet employ an alternate magic system. But I'm working on one that seems viable (you can see it in this thread).

I don't mind Vancian magic. The power level of D&D casters doesn't bother me much. What bothers me is that the magic system and the rest of the whole dang game are two completely different things. And they don't interface well with each other. If you want to do something, you need to roll a d20 and add a modifier. Then you compare that modifier to some DC. That's the 3.X/Pathfinder system, and it works fine. But the magic system doesn't use it! All players have to know two different games: Pathfinder/D&D, and the Magic System. I don't like that, and I'm trying to unify their mechanics a bit.

Right now my group is in an experimental stage. We're experimenting with small changes, working our way up to big changes. Almost none of the changes in my "Yet Another Alternate Magic System" have been tested.

Interestingly a "magic as another d20 + skill" thing is something I was going to be looking into for an alternate magic system I was working on. Of course, mine completely abandons current spell lists and limited-casting mechanics. It keeps saving throws and such the same. At least, for now. Not remotely finished with it (only decently sure on how one of the three spheres work). I also plan to make it as MAD as melee combat is (depends on all mental attributes to some extent, and occasionally a tiny bit on physical).

I have recently been using a relatively simple true-magic/spell-point system where every caster has the same spell list and all casters choose at level 1 whether they use int, wis or cha. All cast as spontaneous, metamagic never increases casting time and isn't limited by spell level (it is instead severely limited by attribute and point cost). If you want to cast a spell it uses (effective spell level) * (effective caster level) points. You can willingly lower the caster level (for all purposes except concentration) to lower the cost, but not below the minimum for the spell. Spending too much at once can fatigue you, which lowers the maximum you can spend on a single spell. You get (caster level + attribute modifier)^2 points.

So far its working out pretty well. Casters get a lot more casting early, but as the levels wear on they have to be more and more careful about reaching into their highest level spells due to the cost. And spell resistance sucks, a lot, as it not only increases cost (you raise the CL to try to pierce) but also generally keeps the "dud" chance even when you do raise the cost.


I prefer a "power point" system such as Rolemaster.

For PF 3.5 I have eliminated memorization completely.

A caster may cast any spell he/she knows at any time. They are only limited by "spells per day".

I find this works to give casters more flexibility without overpowering them.

Liberty's Edge

We use the Spell Point alternative rules in the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana pg 153-154 and finds it works well. It takes a little getting used to at first, but allows for a lot more flexibility with the casters. I.e. A wizard doesn't have to memorize Fireball twice, just spends points each time it is cast.


I'm rather fond of the spellcasting from Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved. It still uses slots, but you have "spells known" slots and "spellcasting" slots. You can also weave several lower-level slots into a higher-level slot and vice versa.

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