It seems your persistence may have paid off. I concede to your points of logic, BigNorseWolf. I believe your last post to be a fairly accurate description of events.
It seems your persistence may have paid off. I concede to your points of logic, BigNorseWolf. I believe your last post to be a fairly accurate description of events.
*bows and offers paw... looks for tarp*
I should warn you, I do not believe in an absolute truth.
This is why I don't get picked for jury duty.
That's also why I based my ruling on the 2 different 'truths' presented. Yes, a wall of fire would quickly heat up a Wall of Iron. I recommend firing over it rather than belly sliding over it.
A wall of ice mentiones creating a breach that lasts the duration of the spell. Perhaps it creates real ice maintained by continuing cold magic.
Maybe the iron wall which is toppled effectively becomes the new ground.At first glance, this is a reasonable assessment. Consider through what ramifications this has with regard to my tangential situation above. If the Wind Wall "checks" for ground orientation at any time other than casting, would that then mean we would have a truncated miniature Wind Wall in the hole of a still standing Wall of Stone? Why or why not?
I'm hesitant to grant to Wind Wall the ability to change its orientation with regard to ground after its casting. It feels, without considering specifics because I'm not interested in sifting through the 100+ pages of spell text for individual instances, like doing so would set a bad precedent. Besides, how do we then differentiate what is and what is not considered ground for a spell? If a Wind Wall were dropped on the first floor of a multiple floor building, would the Wind Wall not begin skipping floors, headed upward in search of highest ground?
The physicist in me doesn't like the idea of gas particles permeating a supposedly impermeable solid and the gamer in me doesn't like obviating a situation of blocked line of effect.
I suck at argumentation in the morning...
My previous post and your post are very similar. click me
I personally don't think it should matter which spell was cast first. Either wind wall is blocked or it is not. The "click me" post ask questions concerning this.
I'm confused why this is even an argument. I mean, only emanations are blocked if you block line of effect after the spell is cast. Anything else is not. It's not even up for debate because Wind Wall is not an emanation.
Now, you can argue that the RAW is dumb and some sort of houserule is more fun, but the actual Rules As Written are completely clear.
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I would allow it, as it is using a resource to counter a resource in an intelligent manner. Besides it's a 6th level spell being used to counter a 3rd level spell.
this is my opinion too.
is this RAW ? RAI ? I don't know and don't want to.is this fun ? nice idea ? using higher power than original spell ?
YES --> allowed.
(as opposed to create water dousing flame sphere... it's cool, but lvl 0 vs lvl should lose, without influence)
I'm confused why this is even an argument. I mean, only emanations are blocked if you block line of effect after the spell is cast. Anything else is not.
Where can this rule be found exactly?
I'm confused why this is even an argument. I mean, only emanations are blocked if you block line of effect after the spell is cast. Anything else is not.Where can this rule be found exactly?
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.
In order for your idea to work by the rules the windwall would have to be an emanation by RAW.
I'm confused why this is even an argument. I mean, only emanations are blocked if you block line of effect after the spell is cast. Anything else is not.Where can this rule be found exactly?A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.
In order for your idea to work by the rules the windwall would have to be an emanation by RAW.
But that is referring to bursts as they compare to spreads.
Effect spells are an entirely different beast and I don't think there is such a rule governing them one way or the other. In other words, a gray area.
I'm confused why this is even an argument. I mean, only emanations are blocked if you block line of effect after the spell is cast. Anything else is not.Where can this rule be found exactly?A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.
In order for your idea to work by the rules the windwall would have to be an emanation by RAW.
But that is referring to bursts as they compare to spreads.
Effect spells are an entirely different beast and I don't think there is such a rule governing them one way or the other. In other words, a gray area.
If they say X can be blocked specifically then there is no way to block the other ones by RAW. Using real world physics(and assuming the wind start from the ground and moves up) I agree with you, but the wall is just a constant affect that is always there.
The wind wall exist in a certain area and pushes upward.
It can exist(upon completion of the casting)* at a height of 5,10,and 15 feet(as an example instantaneously). If it behaved like real wind then the wind at the bottom always pushing up would mean that the nonmagical wind(that is not a part of the spell) would also be pushed up and outward, but the magic confines the entire spell to a certain area. Since it is an evocation** spell it would seem that new wind is constantly being created an pushed up(within a certain area), and when it gets to the top it disappears, and does not allow it to exert its force on real wind.
Assuming the spell(wind wall) just redirects wind(which I don't believe):An iron wall on the ground would not be airtight and since the spell can not leave it's confined area all it should do, assuming it was just real wind being directed by magic, is go around the wall of iron and fill the area it was intended to fill anyway as directed by magic.
*PRD:An invisible vertical curtain of wind appears.<--This leads me to believe the entire wall appears at once and has an upward force unlike
Fog Cloud which "A bank of fog billows out from the point you designate."<----Has a starting point.
** PRD:Evocation
Evocation spells manipulate magical energy or tap an unseen source of power to produce a desired end. In effect, an evocation draws upon magic to create something out of nothing. Many of these spells produce spectacular effects, and evocation spells can deal large amounts of damage.
Now, you can argue that the RAW is dumb and some sort of houserule is more fun, but the actual Rules As Written are completely clear.
In the second printing, of the core rulebook, in the text, of the Wind Wall spell it mentions nothing about how it's effected by things stuck through the wind wall.
You must be talking about some other rules.
Let’s look at the area of effect. It is not a spread or blast, but an area, 10’/level long 5’/level high and 2’ thick.
Let’s say a 10th level mage casts wind wall and we get a 100’X2’X50’ wind wall. This is set in a cave with a 50’ ceiling.
If a creature is flying 20’ off the ground and gets within 55’ of the wind wall and cast detect magic what happens? Well the creature will detect the wind wall 55’ ahead but since they are 25’ off the ground the detect magic does not reach the ground nor the ceiling. Which shows that the entire area is enchanted with magic not some force coming from the ground.
If the creature casts dispel magic so that it penetrates a 10’X10’X50’ area 25’ off the ground and makes the check the overlapping effect of the wind wall will stop in that area. What happens above it? Well overlapping effects will cause the wind wall to cease to be the dispel magic cut out a small hole but the area above will still have wind.
Another example, say a creature casts antimagic field and has his storm giant friend carry him through at a height of 20’. The area the antimagic field shuts down the wind wall starting 10’ off the ground and goes up to 30’ cutting a whole in the wind wall. The area above is still enchanted and would continue to have air race upward from 30’ to 50’.
The spell allows SR, the SR is penetrating a specific spot through the wall and not shutting thing down from that point upward.
Just because you punch a small hole in the wind wall does not dispel the effect above the hole.
Therefore the placing of heavy material in the bottom section of a wind wall will not cause the entire are above that spot to cease to be enchanted.
Another way to look at it is which is occurring blowing or sucking? Is the wind blowing up from a point on the ground or being sucked up by a force at the top of the wall? Both are valid ways of making the air to flow upwards.
What if it oscillates between the two both sucking and blowing switching back and forth in quick succession to cause an upward draft magically taking air from the top(sucking) and pushing it up from the floor (blowing).
Since there is not description of how the magic really works we can only say that the entire area is magical and thus punching a small hole, or making a small block does nothing.
Another way to look at it is which is occurring blowing or sucking? Is the wind blowing up from a point on the ground or being sucked up by a force at the top of the wall? Both are valid ways of making the air to flow upwards.
What if it oscillates between the two both sucking and blowing switching back and forth in quick succession to cause an upward draft magically taking air from the top(sucking) and pushing it up from the floor (blowing).
Since there is not description of how the magic really works we can only say that the entire area is magical and thus punching a small hole, or making a small block does nothing.
I hadn't thought of that.
I really like this line of reasoning.