We've just started Stolen Lands. As many of the players are not the type to run easily, I made a huge speech at the beginning of the campaign about how I'm not going to pull punches, and that this is a sandbox adventure, so that they could easily get in over their heads. So they should be ready to cut and run.
Now they are in the middle of the mite lair about ready to face the giant whiptail centipede and still only 3/4s through first level. And when I ask them about their long term plans they are saying after they work out the business with the kobolds and mites, they think they are ready to face the Stag Lord.
I don't want to tell the players straight out this is dangerous, but would rather subtly guide them or even drop broad hints this is a bad idea. Here is what I've done so far.
* When they took out Kressle's camp one of the bandits told them that any of the Stag Lord's lieutenants could have taken Kressle in a fight, and that the Stag Lord could take any of the lieutenants or even all at once. At the time they reacted "oh, I guess that means we are supposed to wait a while" but they've now apparently forgotten.
* I will point out to them that the Stag Lord's castle is outside the area under the remit of their charter to explore.
* They have met Davik Nettles so have his "quest", but I'm going to hold off on giving them the quest from Restov to take out the Stag Lord as not to encourage them.
* In the mite lair, I'm quite worried about the centipede. I had the rescued kobold be one of the four from the radish patch they encountered (who they healed, questioned, and eventually let go after they defeated him) to encourage them to trust him, and I just had him tell them straight up that there's a nasty centipede in the direction of the crevice.
Does anyone have any suggestions or practices that worked in their own campaigns to guide the players?
Knowledge checks are great. Wisdom and Intelligence checks also give you an excuse to speak as the DM. If the dice rolls for those are low don't bail them out though.
The important thing is whether or you really intend to let the game play itself out. If you don't, just be honest about it, but don't pull too many punches. If you do then let them deal with the consequences.
PS:If the group does not believe in knowledge checks let them deal with the circumstances.
edit:I also run things pretty hard as a DM so I may say things about letting them die that you don't agree with as the conversation continues.
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Here's how I've given my players clues they are in over their head.
1) A Giant Tick murdered the druid in one critical hit.
2) A PC lost a finger being tortured by the Thorn River Bandits.
3) A PC nearly drowned to death while trying to escape an owlbear.
4) Skeletal Hydra (Part of an extra dungeon I threw into a spare hex)
5) A troll tearing the Wizard/Cleric in half like a phone book.
Just a few hints here and there, a random hunter tells tales of how the Stag Lord can shoot the wings off a fly, and crush the head of an owlbear. Build up the legend, and the players might want to build up their own a bit first.
Still it's a sandbox, if they truly intend to go stomping straight down to the Fort, let them. Perhaps they might get lucky and win the day with a legendary tale (all the more legendary for accomplishing a great deed despite the long odds). Maybe they'll die quickly and horribly, and a second group of adventurers will get rolled up charged with seeking the original party (who should be found nailed to trees at Thorn River Crossing, as a warning to others). It's the player's choice, and the Stag Lord should be built up as a legend, but if the players choose to underestimate him, then them's the breaks.
The centipede, while a tough fight, isn't impossible, or even that great a challenge in the long run (certainly not up to the Stag Lord's level of challenge from Stolen Lands). By the time the PCs are 2nd level, they should be able to take it out. It's not like the mites should cause them any trouble. (Annoying as hell, yes, but your PCs should mostly be spell depleted by then, not really HP damaged.)
Use omens for your clerics, portents in the stars for your wizards, taboos for your barbarians, a bad feeling for your rogues, and dreams for your oracles and monks.
Knowledge checks are great. Wisdom and Intelligence checks also give you an excuse to speak as the DM. If the dice rolls for those are low don't bail them out though.
The important thing is whether or you really intend to let the game play itself out. If you don't, just be honest about it, but don't pull too many punches. If you do then let them deal with the consequences.
PS:If the group does not believe in knowledge checks let them deal with the circumstances.
edit:I also run things pretty hard as a DM so I may say things about letting them die that you don't agree with as the conversation continues.
+1
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The party I run were 3/4 through 1st level when they ran into the Mite lair. Two deaths, one by centipede, one by tick with mite back up. It seems to be a very tough series of encounters for a 1st level party. I think characters dying is a very good way of getting the point across that sometimes the PCs will be in over their heads. I know my group was much more cautious after this.
Thanks for the feedback, everyone!
The important thing is whether or you really intend to let the game play itself out. If you don't, just be honest about it, but don't pull too many punches. If you do then let them deal with the consequences.
I'm ready to let them die, but I would prefer for sudden death to not be the main feedback loop. If they ignore warnings, information, hints that should be indicating they are about to face enemies that may be more powerful for them, I won't feel bad about it at all.
But maybe they simply need to burn their fingers on the stove a couple of times.
The centipede I'm not as concerned about, but since they are first level I think there is a good chance of a death if they push forward. But if they heedlessly storm the Stag Lord's encampment, we could have a TPK and I am not sure if the campaign would survive that.
I ran into this problem with my group too. Two thoughts:
- On a "zoomed out" level: I know you said you don't want to "surprise kill" the PCs, so thus you want to give them hints - problem here is the PCs start to learn "if the GM hints us, then we shouldn't do it, otherwise full steam ahead" - you have to 'teach' the PCs that they need to initiate the investigation, be it scouting, or simply asking other trappers/villagers what they think about the dangers in the land
Not until they "own" the responsibility for figuring out what are the tough encounters will they take it seriously. And that means some "surprise! you're dead!" moments before they start to ask the question "how can we not get surprised next time?"
- On a "zoomed in" level: in D&D, it's really hard to tell how powerful something is from the in-game description: "you see a 7ft tall slobbering monster with spikes" could be anything CR 6 through 16. So when the PCs encounter a creature, I just tell them the CR straight-up. Yea, it's weird, and yea, I felt weird about it at first thinking it would break immersion, but really, it gives the PCs something to actually hang their hat on. And I found it didn't break immersion, and they started making up stuff about "I heard my uncle died fighting one of these!" and somesuch once they knew how to "rate" the creature standing before them.
Now, granted, I only tell them that after they've seen the creature up-close, at which point it's harder to avoid.
Knowledge checks give an estimate of power as well as features.
I presume that they scout as well. Don't punish scouting by having the scout be immediately attacked in a surprise round by a creature he can't handle. Have some signs that he's been spotted and an opportunity to get out of dodge with only having alerted the creature that there's something there. Otherwise, after one dead scout, they'll never scout again.
Oh, and if you've got beer and pretzels players, just understand that they're not going to play like CIA assassination squads.
If all else fails, you can adjust the adventure as written. Take a level or two off the Stag Lord, or have him use really awful tactics (I believe he's supposed to be something of a drunk). Fudge dice, or adjust HPs on the fly to have him go down at the right moment. Make it a tough fight, so the players get the idea that they should have been more cautious, but let them 'win' before a TPK actually happens.
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If all else fails, you can adjust the adventure as written. Take a level or two off the Stag Lord, or have him use really awful tactics (I believe he's supposed to be something of a drunk). Fudge dice, or adjust HPs on the fly to have him go down at the right moment. Make it a tough fight, so the players get the idea that they should have been more cautious, but let them 'win' before a TPK actually happens.
But if you do this never let them know you adjusted the encounter to suit them. It sometimes robs players of agency if they realise that whatever direction they take encounters will be adjusted to suit their relative power level.
Robbing PCs of a sense of accomplishment is a rocky road.
Knowledge checks give an estimate of power as well as features.
Giving some idea of CR as you and Erik suggest is a good idea. But strictly speaking it's not RAW, I believe. "You can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities." But still I may find some way to do that. Rather than a number maybe I may use a general read on table 12-1 (Easy, Average, Challenging, Hard, Epic).
I presume that they scout as well.
The group previously scouted but that was in the previous campaign when one of the players was DM and I was a player -- and I was the one who often encouraged the scouting. The mite lair isn't really setup for scouting, so I'm not sure what their standard operating procedure will be just yet.
3.5 used to use Sense Motive in combat to evaluate the threat level of opponents. I feel like if Knowledge gives you special powers and abilities, it should tell you that a hill giant>troll>ogre, but yes, it's your call on that one.
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You could ask the players to prepare secondary characters...just in case. It works on a different level to show you are seriously considering slotting a PC. The only problem is if the secondary PC is the one that they would prefer to play.
We just completed the kobold/mite encounters and the tick is deadly. It took two attempts and the second time we killed the tick then couldn't face leaving without finishing the mite lair in one go in case another tick arrived.
Personally I taught most of our players to be careful but it took three campaigns and two tpk's before they took the hints. We still mention the paladin who prodded a dragon awake before watching it slay everyone else then him.
Cheers
i use the appropriate knowledge and hardness being the FIRST "usefull info" of traits revealed and as a bonus of abilities given. human would be local knowledge i believe so in the case of the Staglord if a role was made and succeeded within 5, im not sure off the top of my head but i think thats 1-2 useful peaces of knowledge. i would reward hardness as a bonus.
this is how i run hardness per CR in my game
CR-
Easy -APL –1 ="these creature probably aren't a threat by themselves though they might be able to hurt one of you with a little luck or strategy"
Average -APL ="these creatures could be a threat i wouldn't underestimate them! you should use caution!"
Challenging -APL +1 ="These creatures pose a threat and you could be in for a tough battle! I would use extreme caution and tread lightly!"
Hard -APL +2 ="These creatures are highly dangerous. Use extreme caution! Do not hold back and and use strong tactics. Be prepared to run if necessary as they overpower you. It's possible one or more of you may not live through this battle!"
Epic -APL +3 ="These creatures out class you pure and simple! These are the battles that legends are born from or great heroes fall. Pursue at your own risk! It's possible one of you might escape to tell your tale. Or if your extremely lucky today the gods may show mercy..."
this method is nice as it gives the players a sense of what to expect without metagaming it down to stats and abilities. I like this method also since new checks are allowed when they level up they come to realize that monsters that could have easily slain them in the past can now be defeated. It works perfect in a sandbox campaign as the players know how dangerous the foe is compared to there power level so it gives them the chance to not get in over there heads without realizing it. i hope this method comes in handy for some of you during kingmaker.
i also use similar wording almost down to exact copies and sometimes exact copies for FAILED knowledge checks.
example-
Failed Knowledge checks-
5 or less= “ you have no general idea of how dangerous these creatures are or are not. They may be as meek as a Rabbit or as fierce as an ancient dragon. Your unable to decipher anything about them. If you decide to proceed your doing so blindly.”
6 to 10= “ These creatures may be highly dangerous. Use extreme caution! Do not hold back and use strong tactics. Be prepared to run if necessary as they overpower you. It's possible one or more of you may not live through this battle!"
11-15= “These creatures may pose a threat and you could be in for a tough battle! I would use extreme caution and tread lightly!"
16-20= “these creatures could be a threat, i wouldn't underestimate them! you should use caution!"
20+ or critical failure= “It's possible these creatures could be a threat..."
failed checks make it so they don't get TO comfy with the system and there never to sure if they passed the check or can't reverse engineer the failures to tell how strong the enemy actually is. Notice even on failed checks i still give an urgency of danger. whether it's an accurate description or not really doesn't matter as the danger in all failures is still implied directly or subtlety. Failures have actually added in quite some humerus circumstances. i wanted to make it so if a player came up against a really high CR monster and failed a difficult knowledge role they wouldn't feel tricked into me making them believe they could win when they stood no chance. Even in the case of a failure by 20+ or a critical failure implies that the encounter very well could be a challenge.
Thought I should report back and say that in the latest session, the players seem to be acting more cautious and not so ready to head off to the Stag Lord's fortress immediately.
Thanks again for everyone's suggestions.
RunebladeX that's an interesting system and I am seriously going to think about implementing it.
Just to sort of reitterate what others have said, just letting the chips fall where they may is one of the fun things to GM in a sandbox campaign. You have to trust your players to figure things out, and if they let their characters die you can't say you didn't warn them.
My group wanted to head into Hooktongue Slough at 2nd level and they hit a random encounter of two trolls. All it took was a healthy character being hit with a fairly grazing blow from a troll claw attack (which I described as a grazing blow to impress on them that they lucked out). The aforementioned character was at 3 hitpoints and that initiated one of the most terrifying chase scenes my players had experienced for years. In the end they managed, through quick thinking and key useage of alchemist's fire to elude the trolls. So far it is one of the highlights of the campaign...and it was literally them praying for luck in their escape for about a half hour of game time.