|
Now, I don't know if this is something that Pathfinder has changed with the new edition or if I actually played 3E wrong for 10 years and no one noticed.
I always played AC like this:
Your Flat Footed AC is your Armor and Natural armor and such. (Plus if you have any Luck.)
Your Touch AC is your DEX and your smarts -- Insight, Monk Training, instinct to Dodge, how well you can Deflect stuff. (Plus if you have any Luck.) Cuz, you know, your Monk training may be cool but if you're surprised you're surprised. And you may be good at Dodging or Deflecting but not when you're flat-footed. And I don't care how smart you are but no matter what Insight you may have, it ain't there if you don't know the monster's attacking!
And your standard AC is your Touch AC bonuses along with your not-Flat Footed bonuses.
So your PC may have the following:
Flat Footed AC: 22. .8........2..........1........1
..............................Armor Shield Natural {Luck}
Touch AC: 19..3.......1........1..........2.............1..........1
......................DEX Insight Dodge Deflection Haste {Luck}
AC: 30 {Because it's only 1 Luck Bonus}
But I see that your Flat Footed AC is only losing your DEX?!! No way?!
Flat-footed AC is basically losing Dex bonus and dodge bonuses, yes.
(Note that in Paizo's products, it's not really "flat-footed" AC, since they don't adjust it to take Uncanny Dodge in consideration. It's really "denied Dex bonus to AC" AC.)
Note that the monk's bonus to AC specifically works when flat-footed.
|
Yeah, you basically have those terms backwards. Touch AC is how easy it is to touch you. Armor and Natural Armor don't matter in this equation, they don't need to break through, just touch you. So only things like Dex, Dodge, etc. apply.
Flat-Footed AC, on the other hand, is your AC when you're caught off guard. You don't get to apply Dex and Dodge with those, because you weren't aware of the attack. Your Armor and Natural Armor and Shield, well they're still present and don't really need to be aware to help (one could argue that the Shield does, but I digress).
Touch Attacks: When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally.
Touch AC = Normal AC minus armor/shield/natural bonuses.
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed.
Barring uncanny dodge, Flat Foot AC = Normal AC minus Dex bonus.
Example AC: 10 base + 2 Dex + 8 armor + 2 shield + 1 Natural + 1 Luck
Total AC: 24
Touch AC: 13
Flat Foot AC: 22
Now, I don't know if this is something that Pathfinder has changed with the new edition or if I actually played 3E wrong for 10 years and no one noticed.
I always played AC like this:
Your Touch AC is your Armor and Natural armor and such. (Plus if you have any Luck.)
Your Flat Footed AC is your DEX and your smarts -- Insight, Monk Training, instinct to Dodge, how well you can Deflect stuff. (Plus if you have any Luck.) Cuz, you know, your Monk training may be cool but if you're surprised you're surprised. And you may be good at Dodging or Deflecting but not when you're flat-footed. And I don't care how smart you are but no matter what Insight you may have, it ain't there if you don't know the monster's attacking!
But I see that your Flat Footed AC is only losing your DEX?!! No way?!
Yes way.
Touch AC has always been your Armor Class without Armor, Shield and Natural Armor. Natural Armor is representative of a super tough skin or thick hide and does nothing to stop someone simply touching you. It works to slow or deflect weapons but not from simple contact. Hence why Dragon touch AC's are so low. They have HUGE natural armor bonuses but that means nothing if someone merely wants to touch you.
Flat Footed AC has always been your normal ac without Dexterity. IMO a good home rule is flat footed should also make the character lose any AC related to dodging as well, such as the monk AC bonus or actual dodge bonuses' but most characters who heavily rely on those types of bonus usually have uncany dodge in any case and are seldom, if ever, actually caught flat footed anyways.
Yes you have been playing it wrong for 10 years.
|
|
I'm gonna check my 3.0 and 3.5 PCH when I get home later -- please tell me I haven't been screwing my monster's (and PC's) Flat Footed ACs for all these years!
Actually, re-reading your initial post I have to admit a bit of confusion. Your descriptions are definitely wrong, but the calculations on the bottom appear to be right. Flat-Footed is using Armor, Shield, and Natural which is good. Touch is using Dex, Dodge, and Haste, which is also good.
Your descriptions above that state the opposite though, and it is those that are wrong.
I edited my OP to fix what I was trying to say.
OMG, I can't believe I've been wrong for going on 12 years now.
I HATE CRUNCH!
Yes but without crunch the cloud is going nowhere.
|
|
Now, I don't know if this is something that Pathfinder has changed with the new edition or if I actually played 3E wrong for 10 years and no one noticed.
I always played AC like this:
Your Touch AC is your Armor and Natural armor and such. (Plus if you have any Luck.)
Your Flat Footed AC is your DEX and your smarts -- Insight, Monk Training, instinct to Dodge, how well you can Deflect stuff. (Plus if you have any Luck.) Cuz, you know, your Monk training may be cool but if you're surprised you're surprised. And you may be good at Dodging or Deflecting but not when you're flat-footed. And I don't care how smart you are but no matter what Insight you may have, it ain't there if you don't know the monster's attacking!
But I see that your Flat Footed AC is only losing your DEX?!! No way?!
Yes way.
Touch AC has always been your Armor Class without Armor, Shield and Natural Armor. Natural Armor is representative of a super tough skin or thick hide and does nothing to stop someone simply touching you. It works to slow or deflect weapons but not from simple contact. Hence why Dragon touch AC's are so low. They have HUGE natural armor bonuses but that means nothing if someone merely wants to touch you.
Flat Footed AC has always been your normal ac without Dexterity. IMO a good home rule is flat footed should also make the character lose any AC related to dodging as well, such as the monk AC bonus or actual dodge bonuses' but most characters who heavily rely on those types of bonus usually have uncany dodge in any case and are seldom, if ever, actually caught flat footed anyways.
Yes you have been playing it wrong for 10 years.
Technically, dodge bonuses are also indeed lost when flat-footed.
"Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses."
|
|
A good home rule is flat footed should also make the character lose any AC related to . . . . but most characters who heavily rely on those types of bonus usually have uncanny dodge in any case and are seldom, if ever, actually caught flat footed anyways.
...Well, it's good to know at least one other gamer has thought it a good House Rule.
It's just mind-boggling that I've been enforcing this House Rule on my monsters for years -- not to mention the occassional PC when I get to play -- for just my characters, none of the other Players
Technically, dodge bonuses are also indeed lost when flat-footed.
"Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses."
Thank you sir. I thought that was the case but while my old brain usually has the right knowledge it seldom, any more, has the right page number.
Flat-footed AC is basically losing Dex bonus and dodge bonuses, yes.
(Note that in Paizo's products, it's not really "flat-footed" AC, since they don't adjust it to take Uncanny Dodge in consideration. It's really "denied Dex bonus to AC" AC.)
Note that the monk's bonus to AC specifically works when flat-footed.
In reading RAW it appears to me that the monk only maintains it's WIS bonus to AC and Class bonus to AC when flat-footed, correct? In the class description for monk it doesn't mention the DEX bonus to AC. Therefore a monk WOULD lose Dex and dodge bonuses to AC when flat-footed. Have I got this right?
Since the class bonus to AC for the monk doesn't specifically say its dodge, I've always considered it to count for flat footed, but anything specifically listed as dodge bonuses do not. The fact that monk already lose their wisdom mod (since they don't get their dex) is penalty enough for someone who probably doesn't have any armor bonus. Allowing them their AC bonus lets them count as keeping having at least light armor.
In reading RAW it appears to me that the monk only maintains it's WIS bonus to AC and Class bonus to AC when flat-footed, correct?
Note that the monk's bonus to AC specifically works when flat-footed.
Yes, that's what I meant by "monk's bonus to AC".
If it makes you feel any better, up until a year ago (I've been gaming for 7 years), I figured out that when someone attacks, they don't provoke an AoO from everyone else. I have ABSOLUTELY no idea where that came from, but my group and I had been doing it for 6ish years. Crazy.