The title says it all. Don't care who it's by but would like it to be similar in scope to Treantmonk's. As in, not going whole cheese and keeping in mind stats using a 15 to 20 point buy.
Anyone seen a decent one?
Doesn't work in APG, but a good bunch of advice and rules of thumb.
Simple guide to being a rogue: don't be a rogue
Simple guide to being a rogue: don't be a rogue
Simple guide for helping: don't tell people what they want and don't want to be *smile*
As for guides, most (if any) haven't been updated with APG, so while that guide is good its probably best to pose your "problems" and questions here concerning your character.
I view rogue to be a weak combat class. Strength and power attack is the normal path for most melee, but for rogue, it's difficult to make a strength based rogue with a decent armor claass.
On paper, two weapon fighting seems like an ideal method to leverage sneak attack damage. However, depending on a flank to get sneak attack damage often involves moving more than 5' - eliminating the option of doing a full attack.
As such, I feel the best way to get a full attack/sneak attack is to make opponents flat footed rather than depending on a flank. There are two paths for making opponents flat footed:
- being invisible; generally best suited as a rogue with a pocket wizard or bard to cast improved invisibility on them or as an arcane trickster.
- taking the shatter defenses/dazzling display/weapon focus feats and trying to get opponents shaken through intimidation. Cornugon smash allows a free intimidate roll with a successful power attack.
I don't think I will ever play a rogue character, so my ideas are all theory.
I am very keen on advocating a Sword&Board Rogue for these very reasons. Take your first level in Figther, being Human, you can start with TWF, Imp. Shield Bash and any one of the future required feats like PA, Double Slice, etc.
Take Rogue after that, building for the Shatter Defenses Tree. I have played around with how many levels of Fighter is OP, but I'm still not certain. Probably 2. You don't get Shatter much earlier or easier than a normal Rogue unless you take Ftr3 and can grab it at 7th, but the benefits of fighting with full armor and shield very much alleviate the Rogue's squishiness on the front line.
You are a plenty-good frontliner until 7-8, when you really begin to shine. With Cornugon Smash, you hit a guy with your first attack of the routine and Intimidate (with a ludicrous bonus if you choose the feats right) and then proceed to totally butcher them with the rest of your routine.
The only real problem I have found with the build is that there are about 4-5 feats that you REALLY want right after you get +6 BAB and I am still working out what is really OP for the order. Planning on playing another version of the build this year in RotRL.
Oh, the Rogue ACF that focuses on Intimidate is a pretty good choice as well for the build.
NOTE: this type of build really isn't very good unless you are playing with 20 or 25 PB, or rolled stats. It just doesn't work with 15 PB due to the fact that you will need high DEX to get at the end of the TWF tree... :(
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Yo, Mr Bennett,
if you were, say, about to formulate a frontlining rogue/fighter using your build, how would you go about it if the first level had to be rogue?
I recently raised an old character of mine from the dead and the gm promptly decided that I'd be playing the same character in our next campaign, now a first level character thanks to permanent negative level taking him from Rogue 2 to Rogue 1. I get to of course fiddle with his stats and feats some, but the first level has to be the same. This build sounds fun and the idea of using mithril breastplate with a shield and having helluva ac compels me.
As such, I feel the best way to get a full attack/sneak attack is to make opponents flat footed rather than depending on a flank. There are two paths for making opponents flat footed:
- being invisible; generally best suited as a rogue with a pocket wizard or bard to cast improved invisibility on them or as an arcane trickster.
Being invisible/hidden does not apply the flat-footed condition. It only caused the opponent to lose dex.
Yo, Mr Bennett,
if you were, say, about to formulate a frontlining rogue/fighter using your build, how would you go about it if the first level had to be rogue?
I recently raised an old character of mine from the dead and the gm promptly decided that I'd be playing the same character in our next campaign, now a first level character thanks to permanent negative level taking him from Rogue 2 to Rogue 1. I get to of course fiddle with his stats and feats some, but the first level has to be the same. This build sounds fun and the idea of using mithril breastplate with a shield and having helluva ac compels me.
Take TWF and probably Power Attack at level 1, take Fighter1 as your next level and pick up Imp Shield Bash. At Rogue2 probably take Weapon Training for Scimitar or Rapier, and then you can take Dazzling Display or Double Slice I think.
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I actually made some lists and fiddled around with combat feats and if done in the rogue->fighter order of things, this build has a really slow start and an even larger list of feats neede at BAB 6.
I wish I could take Power Attack at first level, it would help so much. Now the build never really comes to power.
Dropping the Intimidation thing and going for Gang Up frees enough feats though that the idea of a shield fighter rogue comes to fruition. Thanks for the help.
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Being invisible/hidden does not apply the flat-footed condition. It only caused the opponent to lose dex.
As such, I feel the best way to get a full attack/sneak attack is to make opponents flat footed rather than depending on a flank. There are two paths for making opponents flat footed:
- being invisible; generally best suited as a rogue with a pocket wizard or bard to cast improved invisibility on them or as an arcane trickster.
since you dont need an opponent to be flatfooted only to have the opponent lose a dex bonus to AC to gain a sneak attack then being invisible is valid