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Does the damage from the Vicious weapon property become non-lethal in this instance(to both targets) . As there is no Merciful in play is all the damage inherently non-lethal? What about from flaming, corrosive, and the like as well? Or, would these properties inflict lethal damage (allowing a whip to inflict some damage to an armored opponent)?
Well, flaming, corrosive and shock and what not would do lethal damage.I would assume that the vicious works the same way it reads in that it deals it's regular damage which is non lethal and a extra 2d6 which is also non lethal.
See that is my concern it says it "This energy deals an extra 2d6 points of damage to the opponent and 1d6 points of damage to the wielder." It doesn't say 2d6 of damage appropriate to the weapon type or any other type. Vicious, unlike merciful, doesn't even say the weapon inflicts the damage only that a successful strike produces the "flash of energy" that inflicts the damage.
Well then I suppose I will be going with a Corrosive Whip for my Whirlwind Attack Inquisitor.
Interesting possible cheese.
Think of undead and constructs with merciful and vicious weapons. Against a PC non-lethal is almost as good as lethal, once unconcious you are easy to finish off. The 1d6 feedback from the vicious is ignored.
Hmmmm, Vampires with amulets of mighty fist +0 vicious, merciful.
I like it!
Well then I suppose I will be going with a Corrosive Whip for my Whirlwind Attack Inquisitor.
Don't overlook the Scorpion Whip. Lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses.
Interesting possible cheese.
Think of undead and constructs with merciful and vicious weapons. Against a PC non-lethal is almost as good as lethal, once unconcious you are easy to finish off. The 1d6 feedback from the vicious is ignored.
Hmmmm, Vampires with amulets of mighty fist +0 vicious, merciful.
I like it!
Personally, I didn't even bother with the merciful bit. My Half-Orc Wizard created a Bloody Skeletal Giant Spider (huge size) and gave him a +0 vicious amulet. Of course, the fast healing 7 helped offset the d6 damage he'd take. It seems a bit of a waste (unless you have lots of natural attacks) to spend the additional 15K for merciful.
Well then I suppose I will be going with a Corrosive Whip for my Whirlwind Attack Inquisitor.Don't overlook the Scorpion Whip. Lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses.
TY as no one in our group has that book I had no idea that item existed.
Keep in mind that monsters doing nonlethal damage represent a unique lack of difficulty for PCs. If you have monsters doing lethal damage in addition to the nonlethal, you might almost be doubling the PCs' abilities to heal, since curative magic heals like amounts of both lethal and nonlethal damage.
In addition, it has the added effect of making combats a lot less scary. For some players, that lack of danger can be a real turn off to combat. No chance to die makes the combats a little lackluster, like Diablo II normal mode versus hardcore. ;)
Though once non-lethal damage knocks a PC out, a coup de gras will finish them just the same.
The monster starts off and only uses non-lethal until a PC is out cold then finishes the PC.
So if the PCs get beat they have the added insult of the monster pulling his punches taking them out. hahaha
I do agree that the non-lethal damage is easier to mitigate
but for playing a character who is a fast-healing "scourging" inquisitor, who wishes to flay the sin from you, the whip is too appropriate not to use. With the scorpion whip I can use the whip as my primary attack method rather than having to put it away against armored opponents, I may just make it merciful as it will still inflict damage to armored opponents. Material-type or damage type DR will put the whip back on my hip but little else will. Thanks for all the help folks.
Material-type or damage type DR will put the whip back on my hip but little else will. Thanks for all the help folks.
Unless you keep enchanting it. A +3 Scorpion Whip overcomes DR/slashing, magic, cold iron, and silver. At 6th level you can grant it your alignment, and at 10th it overcomes DR/adamantine (both from Smiting judgement). So no bludgeoning or piercing, but still, not bad!
Some people might cry "Cheese!" but technically a whip is a one-handed weapon, so you could use both hands on it for 1.5x strength and extra power attack damage.
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It doesn't say 2d6 of damage appropriate to the weapon type or any other type.
Actually by not saying that, it is explicitly saying "the damage is the same type as the weapon is dealing."
So the damage both to the opponent (2d6) and to you (1d6) are non-lethal if used with a sap.
Interesting possible cheese.
Think of undead and constructs with merciful and vicious weapons. The 1d6 feedback from the vicious is ignored.
RAW yes
RAI no, you should modify the 1d6 to the Undead to be lethal and retain non-lethal on the PC since the intent of the effect is to apply damage to the users as well as the opponent.
It doesn't say 2d6 of damage appropriate to the weapon type or any other type.Actually by not saying that, it is explicitly saying "the damage is the same type as the weapon is dealing."
So the damage both to the opponent (2d6) and to you (1d6) are non-lethal if used with a sap.
Agreed, and in a similar vein the precedent is already established with additional (IE Sneak Attack) damage being considered of the damage type per the attack that inflicted it.
Agreed, and in a similar vein the precedent is already established with additional (IE Sneak Attack) damage being considered of the damage type per the attack that inflicted it.It doesn't say 2d6 of damage appropriate to the weapon type or any other type.Actually by not saying that, it is explicitly saying "the damage is the same type as the weapon is dealing."
So the damage both to the opponent (2d6) and to you (1d6) are non-lethal if used with a sap.
I read the instructional text on sneak attack not to be precident but instructions about that specific abilities interaction with non lethal weapons as it is a set apart parpagraph in the write up.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
From the srd as I dont have my pdf's with me. If the PDF uses different language I of course stand corrected. Or if someone could linky a clarification that has been made in the forums/FAQ/eratta I would appreciate it.
I am assuming a usage of "can" in the above quote that favors the interpretation that only non-lethal sneak attacks are possible and a lethal sneak attack is not an option in the case of non-lethal weapons. As I think most people would agree that is the RAI. Again, if I have missed an eratta or other clarification please linky so I can bookmark it.
Agreed, and in a similar vein the precedent is already established with additional (IE Sneak Attack) damage being considered of the damage type per the attack that inflicted it.It doesn't say 2d6 of damage appropriate to the weapon type or any other type.Actually by not saying that, it is explicitly saying "the damage is the same type as the weapon is dealing."
So the damage both to the opponent (2d6) and to you (1d6) are non-lethal if used with a sap.
I read the instructional text on sneak attack not to be precident but instructions about that specific abilities interaction with non lethal weapons as it is a set apart parpagraph in the write up.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.From the srd as I dont have my pdf's with me. If the PDF uses different language I of course stand corrected. Or if someone could linky a clarification that has been made in the forums/FAQ/eratta I would appreciate it.
I am assuming a usage of "can" in the above quote that favors the interpretation that only non-lethal sneak attacks are possible and a lethal sneak attack is not an option in the case of non-lethal weapons. As I think most people would agree that is the RAI. Again, if I have missed an eratta or other clarification please linky so I can bookmark it.
I honestly forget where, but what I was mentioning is that there was a clarification at some point that said if you deal damage with a spell (chill touch for example) the sneak attack damage ends up being the same as the spell damage (negative energy). The reason it comes up is for creatures with some sort of DR and if the DR negates the attacks damage most piggy backed abilities don't take effect.
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Material-type or damage type DR will put the whip back on my hip but little else will. Thanks for all the help folks.Unless you keep enchanting it. A +3 Scorpion Whip overcomes DR/slashing, magic, cold iron, and silver. At 6th level you can grant it your alignment, and at 10th it overcomes DR/adamantine (both from Smiting judgement). So no bludgeoning or piercing, but still, not bad!
Some people might cry "Cheese!" but technically a whip is a one-handed weapon, so you could use both hands on it for 1.5x strength and extra power attack damage.
if it's like a whip, isn't it used as a melee attack that provokes AoOs? not so cheese-like to me, and pretty dumb in most situations in fact... plus you don't threaten any squares... definitely NOT cheeselike for something that often requires a DEX build (finesse)
Purple attacking with the whip by itself dosent provoke AoO the disarms and trips you can make with it might. I have a natural attack so I am not worried about threatening (granted it is at a penalty if I have used the whip that round.
Skylancer I am going to assume that the clarification dosent say that energy effects are lumped into that decision? Otherwise the rogue with flames of the faithful on his dagger at 3rd level will not be inflicting his fire damage to the skeleton he is fighting unless he gets a crit (or has a pretty whopping str bonus)
When a vicious weapon strikes an opponent, it creates a flash of disruptive energy that resonates between the opponent and the wielder. This energy deals an extra 2d6 points of damage to the opponent and 1d6 points of damage to the wielder. Only melee weapons can be vicious.
Even after the "first flavor sentence" it is referred to as an unspecified "energy". I think that the weapon enhancement is worded this way to specifically prevent players the penalty damage with "double dip healing non-lethal" when using a vicious, merciful greatsword(or any other weapon). The sword strike produces the effect but the damage (to both parties) remains a lethal unspecified energy so the trick dosent work with undead, constructs to not take the damage or allow a cure spell, fast healing of inquisitors, etc to more easily mitigate the penalty.
Edited for bad grammar and spelling yeesh.
if it's like a whip, isn't it used as a melee attack that provokes AoOs? not so cheese-like to me, and pretty dumb in most situations in fact... plus you don't threaten any squares... definitely NOT cheeselike for something that often requires a DEX build (finesse)
I don't see how it would be dumb, if you have a free hand anyway, why not do more damage with it? Yes, the whip provokes, and no, you don't threaten any squares with it. That's why you have a natural attack or spiked gauntlet or armor spikes or whatever. I also don't see what it has to do with Dex in any way. You can't finesse a one-handed weapon.
I only mentioned the cheese bit because the last time I mentioned using both hands on a whip, people seemed shocked (shocked, I tell you!) at the concept, I think for flavor reasons.
attacking with the whip by itself dosent provoke AoO the disarms and trips you can make with it might.
Yes it does. "Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon."
Fair enough Grick, I surely missed that sentence. And agreed for the other point with this character I have an attack I do threaten with (claws) I wonder if it would be worth it to invest in weapon cord for the whip so if needed I could FA with both claws? I can see its use if I attempt a trip or disarm and fail, but I dont think the hand the cord was attached to would be eligible for claw attack goodness? Does anyone know?
I dont think the hand the [weapon] cord was attached to would be eligible for claw attack goodness? Does anyone know?
Probably not. "you cannot switch to a different weapon without first untying the cord" (or cutting it). While I think this applies mostly to drawing other normal weapons, I guess it probably applies to natural weapons also. That could make sense if you think of a thick leather cord with a weapon bouncing around on the end of it making you unable to attack normally with that limb. (IE: you've still got your claws, you just can't effectively attack with them because of the cord)
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if it's like a whip, isn't it used as a melee attack that provokes AoOs? not so cheese-like to me, and pretty dumb in most situations in fact... plus you don't threaten any squares... definitely NOT cheeselike for something that often requires a DEX build (finesse)I don't see how it would be dumb, if you have a free hand anyway, why not do more damage with it? Yes, the whip provokes, and no, you don't threaten any squares with it. That's why you have a natural attack or spiked gauntlet or armor spikes or whatever. I also don't see what it has to do with Dex in any way. You can't finesse a one-handed weapon.
Weapon Finesse (Combat)
You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, asopposed to brute strength.
Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked
chain made for a creature of your size category, you may
use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength
modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor
check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
Essentially I was trying to draw a parallel between most whip users taking advantage of the finesseable feature and thus being DEX creatures, and thus having the capacity to make a lot of AoOs via Combat Reflexes, and that because whips don't threaten, that in effect they are not cheese due to the fact that they bar DEX builds from ever using their AoOs.
However, some decent useage could be made via the Lunge feat, thus allowing a medium fighter to attack 20' away. Cast enlarge and your reach is now 25'. Not shabby at all... Also allows one to increase the use of Great Cleave tremendously... and makes someone with Whirlwind Attack absolutely insane!!!!!!!!