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If I where them I'd wait until all the Essentials material was put into the subscription model and then see if there is any indication of a large off line Essentials market (ala some of the less then happy people on this thread). If so take the data base and port it to an offline program ala the current Character Builder.This would be all levels (no pun intended) of cool. Essentials being a closed system would be perfect for this. Updates would only be errata, far less work then the current every 4e book/item as done in the current CB.
How do we go about asking WotC if this would be an option?
I vote for the ESSENTIALS: Character Builder & ESSENTIALS: Monster Builder stand-alone products!
S.
+1 definitely
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2. Paizo totally does errata. And while they won't replace my book (which is an unrealistic view, since the material is a significant part of the product's cost here), they give me errata files, and allow me to download new versions of the PDFs.
I think I have downloaded 4 different core rules by now. Note that I'm not paying them 10 bucks a month to be able to download those pdfs. I got the PDF for free, and even had I not been a subscriber, I would have paid 10 bucks. Once. And that's all it costs, forever.
Paizo has not done 1 errata for any non Pathfinder RPG book, though they did update the PDF for the Armory book.
but essentials isnt a seperate game. its all wrapped into one set of core rules. making character builder for just essentials would be going aganist the all one game concept. just becase power a isnt in an essentials book doesnt mean that an essetials build cant use it. i would think that people would want access to all available powers etc.
once these 10 essentials products are out, there will only be further support in dragon magazines.
i feel that this online move to cb and other tools is a first step towards makeing the vtt a reality. (not that i really want or need one, i know that many do want a vtt)
the cb is online, so the vtt can access all the players charecter sheets, and make updates as play goes on without having to find the sheet on your hard drive. the mb is online, so the dm can add monsters and npcs the the encounter, the data is available to the vtt so it can make updates to it as play goes on.
treasure created by the dm is in its own encounter data base, so the vtt can add parcelled out treasure into the character sheet.
this is what i see. sharing data between tools is not a bad thing. i just hope that there are more than 20 encounts stored in the dm's data storage.
making homebrew entry possible is important to me, since i run a grayhawk campain, and would like to enter the grayhawk dieties as selections, but at the same time, i couldnt imagine how many house rules you can add without affecting your 20 character limit.
100% accuracy is not important to me. (its like infinity: infinity isnt important, its the approach to infinity). good enough is good enough. gaming is about fellowship, and friendship, and having a good time. not numerical accuracy.
get together, drink beer, role dice
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but essentials isnt a seperate game. its all wrapped into one set of core rules. making character builder for just essentials would be going aganist the all one game concept. just becase power a isnt in an essentials book doesnt mean that an essetials build cant use it. i would think that people would want access to all available powers etc.
I agree and disagree in one breath :)
Essentials is a 'closed system', it is differentiated from 'core 4e' by its title 'Essentials'. WotC have said that the Essentials line will be reprinted until 5e comes out. This is not true for say the 4e PHB. You still have your all encompassing DDI 'web', but is Essentials is unchanging, other than errata, then using the current CB source code, an Essentials Only product would be easy to create. The argument from WotC is that maintaining the regular updates of the current CB is too time consuming. This would not be the case with Essentials Only.
So the Web-based CB for those who like the wild-west of all the rules and a software product for Essentials to cater for those like their rules more contained. Those who choose the 'web-based' system STILL get everything, those who choose Essentials get only what they want, the Essentials.
This Essentials software would just be the Character Builder and perhaps a Monster Builder (I could live without this however). You would still require the actual Essentials books to play. People would buy this because they don't want to use Pen & Paper to make their PC.
Do I see it happening?
I really think that WotC has lost their way and is looking for the formula for lead into gold currently. I really like Essentials, more so than any 4e product to date. The clarity of rules, the format of the books, and the awesome artwork. If I were to give an opinion on the whole Essentials vs 4e PHB's then I would say that we may be living in a time when things like a book called the PHB will be phased out.
The King is dead, long live the King,
S.
where as wotc has said that esentials products will always be in print, they have not said that the phb 1 or others will be allowed to go out of print, or be phased out. the phbs have the base builds of all not ddi only classes, and all the character races. they have also not said that essentials is going to grow at a rate comparable with the game as a whole.
as i have stated, essentials is not a seperate rule system. it is a basic, simplified version of the whole. you can play 4e either with or without essentials. or you can play dnd based on the options in esentials with or without the core options.
the online cb will support all products of dnd. according to what i have read, there will be filters available to supress the source material the user wants to.
i dont feel that wotc should have to make and support different products for the same game, especially when one product will do. i also feel that once the monster builder and what ever other tools are moved to the online tool, there will be even more incentive to be ddi member.
even playing straight essentials builds (which is terribly limiting) a dm should like the flexibility of a monster builder.
i also argree with what trevor had said that one of the reasons going with an online tool set is to cut down on piracy. i personnaly hate pirates. it doesnt matter if they are stealing music, books, software or hockey seats. (i pay for good hockey seats, and i hate it when people with cheap seat tickets come into the area where i spent 120 bucks. thieves. all of them are nothing but thieves.
wow...rant.
but essentials isnt a seperate game. its all wrapped into one set of core rules. making character builder for just essentials would be going aganist the all one game concept. just becase power a isnt in an essentials book doesnt mean that an essetials build cant use it. i would think that people would want access to all available powers etc.
once these 10 essentials products are out, there will only be further support in dragon magazines.
Sure, but there may be a segment of the gaming population that just deals with Essentials. Hypothetically one could see the same thing with Darksun for example (but it'd help if Darksun had 7 books or what have you to round it out). Both of them are part and parcel of overall 4E but they do have themes. Darksun has a Darksun theme but Essentials is a tad more interesting because it has a 'classic' theme. Its a style of theme that may in fact appeal to some late adopters of 4E, particularly groups that don't plan to make 4E their main game but just do it some of the time maybe as a break.
What I'm really arguing for here, and I have no idea if WotC is considering the idea or not, is that, if there are enough players of 4E that don't have any interest in the style of 4E outside the classic theme and if they don't play enough to warrant a full on subscription WotC could potentially make money buy creating a one off product using their Essentials data sets.
Now this is only profitable if there really are enough people around that would buy such a product for $50 or $70 dollars and my views of the product is that it never updates. Its not a subscription just a stand alone product. Its reasonably profitable to make because the data sets already need to be created for the subscribers so it merely depends on if there is enough of a market to make handling it worth while and to justify building the user interface for it.
I also envision it as a bit of an advertising tool. I think 4E is the cats pajama's and I bet WotC thinks it is too. Make a tool that can really cater to the 'semi-adopters' and throw in some kind of a deal where they can get half off a subscription for 1 year if they ever decide to go all the way and become full on subscribers and maybe some of those 'semi adopters' will come around to WotCs way of thinking. Making a tool that gets them to play more 4E (and nets WotC money in the process) seems like a pretty good idea to me. After all if they play more 4E maybe some will transit from playing it 'as a break - just for the combats' to making it their regular game.
None of this is to say that I don't think Essentials players would not get a lot from the subscription. Having access to 4Es much larger database of monsters would be one benefit, as would access to a much larger library of feats and magic items. Heck even if your DM won't let you play with classes outside of Essentials maybe he'll relent and let you multi-class into Druid or some other non-Essetials 4E class just for added flavour. Even if he sets the bar at only being able to burn one feat into such a multi-class you'd still end up with a pretty unique character with some interesting flavour. All of these are just the kinds of benefits Essentials players that adopt 4E as their core game are going to want...so make it easy on the wallet to 'upgrade' your Essentials only CB+MB into a full on subscription.
So it sounds like I'm describing a separate product, and I am - one that would hopefully make money in its own right, but the end goal is not the separate product in and of itself. Its part of a larger scheme to woe part time users of 4E into becoming full time subscribers.
i feel that this online move to cb and other tools is a first step towards makeing the vtt a reality. (not that i really want or need one, i know that many do want a vtt)the cb is online, so the vtt can access all the players charecter sheets, and make updates as play goes on without having to find the sheet on your hard drive. the mb is online, so the dm can add monsters and npcs the the encounter, the data is available to the vtt so it can make updates to it as play goes on.
treasure created by the dm is in its own encounter data base, so the vtt can add parcelled out treasure into the character sheet.
Its possible but I'd be careful about holding your breath on this one. I think WotC had no idea what they where talking about when they planned to make the VTT. My bet is they where under the delusion that this would actually be a smaller program and easier to make then Blizzards World of Warcraft. After all it'd not need to be nearly as pretty.
I think that was their big mistake. If you look at CRPGs and take this way back to say Commodore 64 days what your going to notice is the graphics on the Commodore 64 suck. These days computers are maybe 100,000 times as powerful as the old Commodore 64s and the graphics on our modern CRPGs are, arguably anyway, 100,000 times better. But can you interact with 100,000 more objects in unique and meaningful ways? Not even close 5-10 times more objects...maybe. In other words making a CRPG pretty is actually the easy part. Making it effectively understand the banister of a staircase is where things get brutally difficult. Managing to code something as complex as a Skill Challenge is an absolute nightmare. Its one thing to create a set environment (ala WOW) with some cool stuff and a completely different thing to allow DMs to actually build their own complex environment and have it behave in a realistic and interesting manner with the monsters and PCs. Its questionable this can be done except in the most stripped down and limiting manner. A VTT is likely to all about what you can't do, which will be most things because no code has been created to tell us what happens if the enemy uses a push power but this staircase has a banister.
A straight up 4E CRPG is possible because the coders make all the environments that the Players could possibly encounter and they only stick objects into those environments for which code has been actually created (even here most of us are used to it being impossible to interact with most of the background 'art'. You can't snuff out the torch in the wall sconce that lights the room for example - the torch is completely 'immune' to Player interaction.
In other words we take for granted that in video games 98% of all the objects that we can see come with the 'immune to player interaction' trait...thing is we don't presume that at all in a game with a DM. In a game with a DM if I have a shovel I can scope stuff up with that and, in soft ground, I can dig a hole. Forget about doing that in a CRPG.
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thieves. all of them are nothing but thieves.
Or Rogues if they are only using 4e rules and not Essentials ;)
Here's me not disagreeing about the piracy btw. Ends up just making software more expensive as the companies have to factor in a loss to pirates amount.
I do understand what you mean about 'one game', but what I mean is very similar to what Jeremy has said. Eseentials is a closed/confined sub-set of 4e based on a theme. This allows it, unlike the 4e as a whole, to be translated to a stand-alone product. If I wanted to draw people into the 4e game and was using Essentials as the entry point then in some ways I would be thinking to offer a CB either as a separate product OR include it for free in the Players Books. Make it easy for new players, then as they explore the 4e D&D a little further, have the PHB's and DDI ready for them to invest in. A little carrot before the cart as they say.
S.
PS: As to where WotC said that Essentials will continue on with no extra books - can someone help me with that? It was either on the WotC site or perhaps ENworld with a WotC staff member post. I'll try to find the reference, but I assure you I'm not pulling stuff out of my butt to make a point.
In reading this (presumably old news to most). I must confess to a certain degree of sympathy. Specifically:
"It was a while ago that I told you that we wouldn’t over promise and under deliver anymore for D&D Insider and our digital endeavors. I know that it’s been frustrating for you to get only snippets of news here and there, and it’s certainly not fun for us to hold back information and not share with you the cool things that we’re working on. At the same time, I never want to get up in front of you again (live or via this column) and tell you that something is coming and then discover later that we just couldn’t deliver on the promise."
Of course, I didn't feel much empathy when they mentioned they had a 'brand team'.
Of course, I didn't feel much empathy when they mentioned they had a 'brand team'.
This. Right here. This is something I'd been thinking about the other day.
I write copy for about 30 different e-commerce websites and we're always looking at how our on-page design and content styling affects our click-through, bounce, and conversion rates. One thing I believe in very strongly - because we're white hat when it comes to SEO and user optimization - is that the more friendly the page is to the user, the better your numbers will be for all those benchmarks I mentioned above.
So when I compare the Wizards website to the Paizo website, one thing that jumps out at me immediately is the difference in design and content.
To wit: The WotC site has two items above the fold that throw me off as a gamer (assuming, perhaps, that I've just begun playing D&D and never visited the site before). The first is the prominence of the Press and Brands buttons - this actually has the effect of suggesting that I'm viewing a site that contains corporate information, not content pertinent to me as a gamer.
Now, this in and of itself isn't so bad - we have press and branding buttons on our sites, too - but when you couple it with the second item I notice, it can potentially make a new visitor think they're in the wrong place. That second item is the prominently displayed announcement about their new VP of Marketing. So this is supposed to be a site for players of WotC games, but rather than hit me with something that will make me want to stay on the site, like a blurb about an upcoming product or an announcement of a new line of miniatures, the most important thing for page visitors is... who's in charge of branding now? Sure, there's the text talking about a new Neverwinter trilogy and adding MtG to Steam, but they aren't the primary features on the home page (nor is the artwork directly related to this product, except insofar as there's a picture of a drow there and Drizzt Do'Urden is also a drow).
You do see brand buttons hyperlinked to pages for the most popular games above the fold, though, which is about the only good thing you can say for this page's design. Keep cruising down below the fold (a fancy way of saying "on the bottom half of the page"), though. You actually have to scroll down to see the info on organized play events or the blurb on the PHB3, a core product for a flagship brand.
Now, compare this experience with what you get when you go to Paizo's homepage. Above the fold, you have hyperlinked images on the left that take you right to informational content about their flagship product (the core RPG) and organized play (granted, if you haven't heard of Pathfinder Society, you might not know that's what it is, but still, it's accessible and prominent). In the center you have a blurb about a product, the Misfit Monsters Revised book, with a picture of the cover art. Also in the top center is the "Welcome, guest!" text - the human eye is lazy and since this is near a product blurb with a pretty picture, you're more likely to notice it. So right away I know that Paizo offers messageboards, downloads, and shopping, and that I can create an account to utilize these features. The top right of the page also shows a product - the current bestseller, with cover art, plus a list of other top-selling products. And in the bottom middle, but still above the fold, are hyperlinked pictures to the Game Mastery Guide, a full catalog, and an adventure module.
Below the fold are breakdowns of product categories, a list of trending topics and threads on the messageboard, user-generated product reviews, and information on subscriptions. So now I know that I can read messageboard posts even without an account, read or write a product review, and subscribe to a line of products.
Now, of course, these layouts will differ somewhat because Paizo relies more on direct sales than Wizards does. But it's still pretty obvious that you have two different design philosophies on these sites. One is intended to promote branding and corporate news, and other other is more geared toward ease of use for visitors.
I think this overemphasis on branding is a sign of the paradigm shift we've seen at Wizards over the last few years. Now, as a stockholder or a corporate bigwig, I might find a lot to love about the Wizards homepage. But as a visitor, Paizo's page is far more friendly and intuitive. I'll bet this week's allowance of gaming money that Paizo has a lower bounce rate. And the mistakes I see Wizards making with their layout and design philosophy are typical of what sites tend to look like when executives who don't understand user behavior dictate what design elements should go on a page - in fact, it's symptomatic of exactly the type of executive viewpoint my company occasionally fights against to make our pages as user-friendly as possible.
Just some food for thought.
I haven't gone back read all the posts so someone may have mentioned this, but I just saw it mentioned that Microsoft is supposedly moving in another direction, away from Silverlight(?). Isn't Silverlight what the new 4e CB will be in?
At least that is what I took away from it. I could be off my rocker.
As a non-code monkey I don't know exactly what the ramifications of this will be. I'm just sharing info.
They're not really moving away from it, it's being repositioned as a primary phone-development environment for the win7 phone and not as flash replacement anymore. Sensible move, but not so good for WotC in the long run. They should have bet on HTML 5, because the lack of web-CB on the iPad and on android-tablets is just a bad move...
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As my daughter would say... they must eat a big bowl of Stupid-O's every morning.
OMG that is just to cute and to funny. :)
Ok I am not a 4e player. I don't mind it but my group can't stand it. Anyways while I see this as a negative for many people, for the short term. I guess as a outsider I just don't see why it is a huge deal. To me the only really bad thing is no use of it offline. Other than that it sounds like it will likely be a better set up.
I guess as a outsider I just don't see why it is a huge deal. To me the only really bad thing is no use of it offline. Other than that it sounds like it will likely be a better set up.
Not having a decent export function (apparently those online pdf creators aren't that great), means you have to do copy and paste (which is laughable in this day and age, exports aren't rocket science) and settle for, what is basically a printout.
Even if you're one of the guys who uses a computer on the table, you need one with access to the net. That might sound like a given for you, but a lot of people don't have that. I have it in my Saturday games, but not Sunday.
I decided to quit 4th edition some time into that edition. One of the overarching reasons to do that was that they felt they wanted to make digital payments a necessary part of playing the game. Now, we know what happened to their plans: Two magazines that remain a bleak shadow of their former selves, a character builder they try to extort money from you with by not letting you export characters (what the f**k were they thinking???), and the rest simply not done.
And they still haven't made a 4th edition computer game. After making the game so extremely streamlined that very few decisions need to be made by a DM, that's incomprehensible.
Thank you Paizo for giving me an alternative.
I decided to quit 4th edition some time into that edition. One of the overarching reasons to do that was that they felt they wanted to make digital payments a necessary part of playing the game. Now, we know what happened to their plans: Two magazines that remain a bleak shadow of their former selves, a character builder they try to extort money from you with by not letting you export characters (what the f**k were they thinking???), and the rest simply not done.
Not exporting characters when the product drops is just standard WotC ineptness not part of an evil master plan. They are falling all over themselves promising that It'll be one of the first things they rectify.
And they still haven't made a 4th edition computer game. After making the game so extremely streamlined that very few decisions need to be made by a DM, that's incomprehensible.
Streamlined in this case makes computer games harder, not easier. There are a ton of DM influenced decisions points in 4E and computers are lousy at making a rules call after evaluating circumstances. My bet is you'd have the smae kind of trouble if you tried to make a Castles and Crusades game.
Computer games are easier to make the more comprehensive the rules are. If there is a rule for everything then you just code that into the game - if many rules are 'the DM decides but here are some things s/he should consider when making that decisions' then this is difficult to program a computer to do.
So, for a computer, the more rules a game has the better. It's likely easier to make a computer game of 3.5 then it is to make a computer game of 4E though I'm sure its possible to do so with either.
Not having a decent export function (apparently those online pdf creators aren't that great), means you have to do copy and paste (which is laughable in this day and age, exports aren't rocket science) and settle for, what is basically a printout.
Even if you're one of the guys who uses a computer on the table, you need one with access to the net. That might sound like a given for you, but a lot of people don't have that. I have it in my Saturday games, but not Sunday.
What? Everything you can print, you can export in perfect quality to pdf. I don't see any problem there.
I decided to quit 4th edition some time into that edition. One of the overarching reasons to do that was that they felt they wanted to make digital payments a necessary part of playing the game. Now, we know what happened to their plans: Two magazines that remain a bleak shadow of their former selves, a character builder they try to extort money from you with by not letting you export characters (what the f**k were they thinking???), and the rest simply not done.
Last time I checked (looks to the right and left) WotC wasn't holding a gun to my head to keep my DDi subscription (checks again to be sure). No one NEEDS the CB, Compendium, or DDi articles but they do enhance the game further. Need that niche cleric of Erathis who's bent on Earth-style powers and features. Your best of going for something in the DDi. Need a generic wizard that uses a wand and has lots of spells to choose from, then the PHB is the way to go. Updates are primarly utilized by RPGA players. I've rarely had a problem where uber-combos and situations MUST be declared by Errata. The CB is just a convenience factor honestly.
And they still haven't made a 4th edition computer game. After making the game so extremely streamlined that very few decisions need to be made by a DM, that's incomprehensible.
Thank you Paizo for giving me an alternative.
While the maneuvers/spells might be easier to visualize/adapt into a CRPG, I still don't think it's as easy as previous CRPGs using 2e/3-3.5e that we had (Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights for example).
And as Jeremy stated, WotC is coming out with a new game along the lines of Neverwinter in the end of the 3rd quarter of next year.
Also, what decisions aren't made by the DM besides character creation/advancement?? The DM dictates what loot is given and can be bought, the DM decides the encounter (be they combat, skill-challenge), and the DM decides what normally goes along in the storyline. I'm drawing a blank here...
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What? Everything you can print, you can export in perfect quality to pdf. I don't see any problem there.
Since the CB will not have a built in PDF export, we don't know yet how well the 3rd party PDF export tool will work.
Have you used those consistently? Some Web Pages come out looking like crap with those!
What? Everything you can print, you can export in perfect quality to pdf. I don't see any problem there.Since the CB will not have a built in PDF export, we don't know yet how well the 3rd party PDF export tool will work.
Have you used those consistently? Some Web Pages come out looking like crap with those!
Oh, I'm on a mac, so pdf support is built-in and works perfectly everywhere. I wasn't aware that this is still a problem for windows users...
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Oh, I'm on a mac, so pdf support is built-in and works perfectly everywhere. I wasn't aware that this is still a problem for windows users...What? Everything you can print, you can export in perfect quality to pdf. I don't see any problem there.Since the CB will not have a built in PDF export, we don't know yet how well the 3rd party PDF export tool will work.
Have you used those consistently? Some Web Pages come out looking like crap with those!
I have a mac, but never used that ability on it, so can't comment on it.
Mostly this is what happens when you use a 3rd part PDF converter.
Web Pages are not made with a 8.5 x 11 paper in mind so you have no control where the PDF pages cuts off on, so you can be in the middle of a weapon stat but if it is near the bottom it will print on the next page, also you will get Everything you see on the web page, including any header, footers, navigation bars, etc.
Basically for it to work perfectly with a PDF converter it will have to perfectly take a 8.5 x 11 page when it outputs into the browser.
Oh, I'm on a mac, so pdf support is built-in and works perfectly everywhere. I wasn't aware that this is still a problem for windows users...
This is joke, right? :P
Oh, I'm on a mac, so pdf support is built-in and works perfectly everywhere. I wasn't aware that this is still a problem for windows users...This is joke, right? :P
No, since the whole windowing system is based on PDF. By the time you display a webpage on a screen, it is available as pdf in the system already.
You can read up on Quartz if you want more technical information on the subject.
Oh, I'm on a mac, so pdf support is built-in and works perfectly everywhere. I wasn't aware that this is still a problem for windows users...This is joke, right? :PNo, since the whole windowing system is based on PDF. By the time you display a webpage on a screen, it is available as pdf in the system already.
You can read up on Quartz if you want more technical information on the subject.
You're right! The problem is totally that I don't know enough about Quartz! After all, it's not like there is an example of PDF viewing on a Mac "working perfectly" right here on Paizo.com! Or over here, where Vic totally doesn't note that "Apple just needs to fix the bugs in their PDF viewer!" Further, it's a good thing similiar complaints aren't all over the web! Here is Preview "working perfectly," and again over here!
You're welcome to join any cult you like, but you may find it helpful to bear in mind that the reality distortion field's range is not unlimited.
You're right! The problem is totally that I don't know enough about Quartz!
My post was in response to a conversion to pdf question. But yeah, who cares about context when you can flamewar, right?
where Vic totally doesn't note that "Apple just needs to fix the bugs in their PDF viewer!"
Well if Vic thinks the bug is in the viewer, he's wrong. It's in a third-party library. Not that it matters for your flamewar purposes, of course.
You're welcome to join any cult you like, but you may find it helpful to bear in mind that the reality distortion field's range is not unlimited.
What's with all the hatred? Calm down, that can't be healthy.
What's with all the hatred? Calm down, that can't be healthy.
Sorry, no "hatred" here...just a weary familiarity with platform-based smugness. But whatever floats your boat, my friend.
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You're welcome to join any cult you like, but you may find it helpful to bear in mind that the reality distortion field's range is not unlimited.What's with all the hatred? Calm down, that can't be healthy.
Worry not. I'm reported him using the special Mac-Users handshake to the Steve Job's 'special squad'. Just wait until the 2.5 million viruses unleashed on his Windows machine kick in. He'll be begging for a Mac. Then again he might (already?) be using a real operating system and have migrated to Linux.
If you can't beat the flame-warriors, join them :)
Then again he might (already?) be using a real operating system and have migrated to Linux.
I thought the real OS was open bsd?
Can we not do the Mac vs. whatever thing here? I'm more interested in the web character builder.
I think we're past it already, Gary; I know I am. Hence the "whatever floats your boat."
It's annoyed me that on some of the forums ppl have complained about those of us that took the occasional dip into a DDI supscription to get updates every couples of months. They usually try to explain how a program as "complex" as the character builder takes alot of work to maintain, but I gotta tell you when you consider what comparable amounts of money will buy you software wise I thinks its a pretty crappy arguement.
Just for some perspective I've paid over 80 bucks in supscriptions fee's for the occassional update in the years since 4e came out. That will damn near buy me copies of both Fallout: New Vegas and Fable III. I'm no programer but i'm pretty damn sure the CB can't even begin to remotely touch either of those products in complexity, let alone both.
Is it because the cost of production is spread across more users? Maybe to a certain extent but I still don't think that accounts for the HUGE disparity in cost vs complexity.
Basically what I'm trying to say that even if the old model of subscriptions wasn't the most optimal means of distributing/selling digital content ther is no way I'll ever believe it wasn't profitable as a hell regardless. This just makes their decision to remove the one product of DDI we all actually use and enjoy, and spend all thier time and development energy re-inventing the damn wheel (and a less useful wheel at that) instead of bringing us DDI users more useful apps to lure us into maintaining a sub, all the more insulting.
I'm a huge capitalist/libertarian, so I'm all about WoTC doing what ever it takes to make more money. I just think taking their one decent online product and replacing it with a crappier version for no other reason than to increase thier income is crappy customer service...
As a slight side note I'm very wary of purchasing a SERVICE like the new, unlike the old cb which was a PRODUCT. One might get discontinued if its not profitable enough (say in the event of another economic speed bump), or if a new edition come out. Where as with an offline cb like the old one its mine as long for as I can keep my data backed up.
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As a slight side note I'm very wary of purchasing a SERVICE like the new, unlike the old cb which was a PRODUCT.
My concerns exactly. If WotC discontinue I have nothing to show for my money and nothing to help me play 4e. Given WotC track record I'm not so sure I feel that my money would be well spent.
Thinking longer term, when 5e comes out will WotC continue to support online 4e? If not then I lose ALL my neat computer tools for playing 4e, which I may wish to continue playing rather than 5e. Current CB gives me future proofing for my 4e gaming, the new model well, I guess we all have to be good consumers and buy 5e.
S.
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It's annoyed me that on some of the forums ppl have complained about those of us that took the occasional dip into a DDI supscription to get updates every couples of months. They usually try to explain how a program as "complex" as the character builder takes alot of work to maintain, but I gotta tell you when you consider what comparable amounts of money will buy you software wise I thinks its a pretty crappy arguement.
I made comments like that, before realising that WotC were offering monthly subs (as opposed to my yearly sub). I can only shake my head at WotC's silliness in allowing such a thing from a business perspective, and obviously if they offer it it's clearly perfectly acceptable to take it.
It's annoyed me that on some of the forums ppl have complained about those of us that took the occasional dip into a DDI supscription to get updates every couples of months. They usually try to explain how a program as "complex" as the character builder takes alot of work to maintain, but I gotta tell you when you consider what comparable amounts of money will buy you software wise I thinks its a pretty crappy arguement.
Just for some perspective I've paid over 80 bucks in supscriptions fee's for the occassional update in the years since 4e came out. That will damn near buy me copies of both Fallout: New Vegas and Fable III. I'm no programer but i'm pretty damn sure the CB can't even begin to remotely touch either of those products in complexity, let alone both.
Is it because the cost of production is spread across more users? Maybe to a certain extent but I still don't think that accounts for the HUGE disparity in cost vs complexity.
As Mathew has noted repeatedly (and arguably unlike my post on the topic) WotC offered the month only subs so they got what they deserve and no one is being bad for using what WotC offered. They are a corp and should be treated as such. That said I don't blame them for deciding that this was not in their best interest.
The thing about a product like Fable III or Fallout III is that the programmers create the program, get their money and move on to the next program. The DDI needs to constantly employ people, its more akin to a development house then a single product because the program keeps expanding.
If you bought Fallout III but expected the guys who designed that to stick around and keep expanding on the game after it shipped then the model would need to take into account how the product was supposed to generate more money in order to keep paying these guys wages.
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The thing about a product like Fable III or Fallout III is that the programmers create the program, get their money and move on to the next program. The DDI needs to constantly employ people, its more akin to a development house then a single product because the program keeps expanding.If you bought Fallout III but expected the guys who designed that to stick around and keep expanding on the game after it shipped then the model would need to take into account how the product was supposed to generate more money in order to keep paying these guys wages.
For a product like Fallout III it cost them $18 - $28 million to produce *Average cost of a multi-platform game*, For a Fable III it would have been slightly lowers since it was not made for PS3, and these are based on Last year.
You can not compare video game prices to what they are charging for DDI, even if the subscription price is similar to MMOs. The Production cost or no were near the same!
Too many people here are forgetting that with the Subscription you get more the just the CB, you are also get the mags, Monster Builder *In its poor form*, compendium and future products.
If your interest is just the CB and not the other products, it is in your best interest in convincing WotC to offer a lower subscription price for access to just the CB.
* Edit: Also these days they do expand upon games after the are released with DLC some free some charged for.
Another thing to take into consideration in the Fallout/fable vs. CB argument is that unlike Fable and Fallout and standalone crpgs, the CB that we all love so much is essentially like 6+ books worth of material all wrapped into one place. Having the old CB nearly negates the need to buy PH1-3, and if they picked up a 20ish dollar book, say the rules compendium... then you essentially have a complete game for 30$ and WotC never sees the return on the $100-200 worth of books they've printed and paid to produce. This is a huge difference than crpgs where they go in nowing there is only one real cost... besides nowadays it's all about microtransactions. Just ask Bioware and EA, and as for fallout, well we already know theres DLC coming so that's just more money for the extras... welcome to now. :)
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Not having a decent export function (apparently those online pdf creators aren't that great), means you have to do copy and paste (which is laughable in this day and age, exports aren't rocket science) and settle for, what is basically a printout.I don't think there is any reason why something like CutePDF wouldn't work. Not to say that is a reasonable excuse - and it does sound like adding export is their first priority - but I don't think Copy/Paste is going to be needed in any way.
The problem here is that it won't necessarily be formatted to print, and there's no way to import that PDF back into the CB, say, on another computer. It's far from an optimal answer.
Even if they instead had gone with micropayments. Say $2 for each of the magazines (content added to the database, monster builder and character builder free) and $1 for the content for the major released books (the modules and such get their content added free) you'd still be slowly building a wall to keep away new users because all these micropayments eventually add up and becomes a wall that will inhibit new users from adopting and make it difficult to add newbs to an existing campaign because they would need to buy all the content that we have already purchased.
That assumes that everybody wants everything. I've never used any of the crunch from either of the magazines, because I find it seriously lacking. I'd much rather pay a 1-time $1 (or $5) fee for books that I'll actually use, and then be DONE with my payments, than renting it and then losing everything when my subscription lapses.
New players really don't need all of the options anyway. I don't know about your table, but when I get a new player at mine, I guide them through character creation face to face, explaining the choices and giving them limited options to try to avoid overwhelming them.
My biggest gripe, beyond the off line format being suited to my play style and using a netbook, is the very obvious ploy of deception, or just ignorance, when they didn't state prior to the release of Dark Sun or Essentials, that those books would not be supported under the current CB. I still don't like the web based character builder, but perhaps they took the path of it is better to ask for forgiveness, then ask permission. Because I would not have started to invest in Dark Sun or Essentials had I known the fate of CB.
As to dipping (paying for a month subscription), that is perfectly acceptable, and should have been fixed immediately by WOTC if it presented a problem.
I understand the move in regards to piracy, but as the music industry has shown, they don't go away, and most the time you end up offending your loyal customer base. At least I was loyal up to this point.
But I agree with Stefan in one aspect, that I was too dependent on the CB, as it was the only tool that allowed my to keep up with the steady release of books. I think at this point, I will go back strictly to paper with any game I play. In addition, I will only purchase the core books, and no supplements (3 books a year at best).
I understand your point, and it is probably a big conspiracy theory on my part, but I no longer trust WOTC or Hasbro for that matter. They defaulted on any previous relationship in regards to CB, and that carries over to my feelings about them in general. The circle is now complete.
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if it meant we got Essentials for the offline CB
I believe this was a conscientious choice made to make sure they Essentials didn't become 'free'. Essentials is a reboot of 4e, say what you like, giving WotC a chance to correct their previous mistakes (as they see them). So now, buy Essentials, pay your subscription fee, and WotC are a happy bunch of campers. Once again like T$R of 1e (post Gygax) & 2e+ fame, WotC have a model of pumping out rulebooks until the game becomes almost unplayable. Essentials was REQUIRED to happen. Picture dumping every book in 4e that has a PC race/class on a new player, and than dumping the 100+ errata on them and saying "make your character, I'll get back to you when you are finished". My opinion, Paizo has learned from T$R/WotCost mistakes with regards to RPG development. That is make a set of rules, but then make a lot of material, i.e. adventures/campaigns etc, that use those rules. WotC is pumping out rules far faster than material to use those rules with. Still this has been D&D'd model from the day they booted Gygax out. So my advice to WotC, "stop making more freak'n classes, refine the ones you have, and perhaps drop somw, and release a new edition of the PHB". Oh, wait they did, it's called Essentials. Now it is done, stop, just stop with the rules and start with the imagination...
Ranting like a loon,
S.
T$R? Seriously? Is this 1995?
And no, it's not a reboot. Just because you say it is and defy us to disagree does not make it so.
Also rantingly and irritated by rhetorical claptrap.
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I do agree the DDI is not like a game like Fable. But I disagree the DDI is not like a MMO and i will explain why. And no i am not saying 4e is like one so don't worry.
A game like fable cost x amount to make then might have a few patches maybe and then it's done. There is no more investment by the company.
A MMO cost X amount to make. After that they tweak the game, add new content, change old content etc. They keep the game fresh and interesting. To do that they have to have people on staff to come up with new stuff and then code monkeys to make it work. That cost money.
The DDI CB cost X amount to make. Now the program is not changing per say. But new content is being made for it and some people don't buy books and just get the info from the DDI. Plus someone has to enter all that data into the DDI CB. So like a MMO they have a ongoing cost.
Now some MMO's go the other route and are free to play but they charge you a lot for the updates. While others have free updates but monthly fee's and then a few charge you for both.
So it makes sense they charge for the DDI CB and it makes sense they want people that use it to pay for the content added to it.
Personally I think they would be better off selling the content and not having a monthly cost. I think selling the DDI CB software for x amount and then selling cheap updates would be the better way, for the consumer. For WotC though making it online only and monthly is likely better for their bottom line. You pay x amount a month to get all the content weather you want it or not. Now for some thats a good deal and others not so much.
Anyways I should stop rambling. My main points where I understand why WotC is doing what they are doing and I can see why some people are happy about it and why some others are not happy about it. I am sure I started this with another point in mind but "shrug" meh
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T$R? Seriously? Is this 1995?
And no, it's not a reboot. Just because you say it is and defy us to disagree does not make it so.
Also rantingly and irritated by rhetorical claptrap.
I told you it was a rant. Hmmm, perhaps I should have put that at the start of the post?
That aside, what would you call Essentials? I don't think that it's 4.5, the constant evolution of the rules via errata/DDI make such a designation impossible. Given the recycling of the tradition classes, I think 'reboot' is an apt term. I don't apologize for using it and am unsure why it gives such offensive? What exactly do you disagree with? I have just reread what I posted and I other than perhaps the initial, 'say what you', which I would omit on reflection, I stick with my sentiments. The producers of D&D have always taken the stance that what they should be producing is rules on top of rules, with material for using those rules almost as an after thought.
Interested to hear what you take issue with,
S.
if it meant we got Essentials for the offline CBI believe this was a conscientious choice made to make sure they Essentials didn't become 'free'. Essentials is a reboot of 4e, say what you like, giving WotC a chance to correct their previous mistakes (as they see them). So now, buy Essentials, pay your subscription fee, and WotC are a happy bunch of campers. Once again like T$R of 1e (post Gygax) & 2e+ fame, WotC have a model of pumping out rulebooks until the game becomes almost unplayable. Essentials was REQUIRED to happen. Picture dumping every book in 4e that has a PC race/class on a new player, and than dumping the 100+ errata on them and saying "make your character, I'll get back to you when you are finished". My opinion, Paizo has learned from T$R/WotCost mistakes with regards to RPG development. That is make a set of rules, but then make a lot of material, i.e. adventures/campaigns etc, that use those rules. WotC is pumping out rules far faster than material to use those rules with. Still this has been D&D'd model from the day they booted Gygax out. So my advice to WotC, "stop making more freak'n classes, refine the ones you have, and perhaps drop somw, and release a new edition of the PHB". Oh, wait they did, it's called Essentials. Now it is done, stop, just stop with the rules and start with the imagination...
Ranting like a loon,
S.
I more or less agree with you outside of maybe the pejorative tone and some elements of why the philosophy was good or bad.
- I agree that the timing was done to keep Essentials from becoming 'free' (or more accurately $10). Now I don't think this moment was chosen for that - if I wanted Essentials for $10 I'd presumably have waited until the Essentials books where all uploaded. This moment was chosen in part because whatever bad marketing flak they are going to pick up for the current timing and the lack of PDFs for character sheets it will be nothing compared to having gone halfway through Essentials and then cutting people off.
- I doubt WotC see's Essentials as completely a chance to correct previous mistakes. They don't want you to stop buying, maybe you will but if so your not working with their marketing model. Essentials is not a reboot to correct mistakes - its a move to sell product and hopefully get more people on board. If all your going to do is buy their Essentials products. well thats better then nothing, but its not that great. The books prices are purposely depressed but there is no reason to think that whoever their printer is they got some great deal so their production costs probably stayed about the same, all in all their margin per book is probably thinner then average - this was not meant to be your only purchase - its meant to draw people in.
- WotC's model seems to be to pump out rules like crazy early on and then close the edition with adventuress and other campaign add ons. Early on the desire for expansions is pretty much a frenzy. I mean we spent the first 18 months of this edition (at least) hearing about how the biggest problem with 4E was that there are no choices. Later on (and we are probably heading into this part of the edition or will be soon) the demand fades, the customer base becomes saturated. There are mor options than can possibly be run and new 'cool stuff' is usually met with 'meh' because everyone has already thought up three characters that the plan on running 'next' and the chances of anything new comparing with the awesomeness of whatever they have thought up is pretty much nil. Needless to say sales start dropping fast. However campaign and adventurer type material retains its ability to sell for a long time longer. Its problem is its not usually as good a seller, usually only the DM buys this type of material and, eventually, the DM knows what he plans to run for the next 4 or 5 campaigns and starts having an increasingly difficult time justifying continued purchases.
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I more or less agree with you outside of maybe the pejorative tone.
Apologies for the tone, I just have a cardboard full of 4e stuff and it seem, to me at least, that WotC need to start thinking about Adventure Path type things. Instead we just gets rules and more rules.
I understand what you mean about sales, but experience shows us that D&D grows to some critical mass and then implodes under rulebooks followed by a new edition. Rinse and repeat. I personally think Essentials is a great produce, it achieves all that I see is needed for 100's for years of role-playing. Now give me adventures and campaigns, with cool maps and fold-out battle mats, and things to use my cool tiles sets on!
I, personal view, think some players are obsessed with being spoon-feed a 'class'. Perhaps stopping an smelling the roses, that Essentials will allow, will make people appreciate what they already have rather than waiting for the next 'class' fix?
S.
An interesting move by WOTC to say the least, though I would have thought they would have learned not to release something so incomplete that it lacked basic functionality (and an export function for a game like DnD is something I consider to be basic). I've gotten to a point watching the development of 4e, that the rules, while they are not my personal preference, are solid and work well for what they are designed to do.
What is really hurting 4e, though, is that the marketing people have just completely lost it when it comes to how to effectively promote the system. The marketing for it, in my opinion, has been filled with missteps and ill advised, and ultimately undeliverable, promises.
While the release yet another incomplete software tool may be necessary due to previous missteps, this does nothing to suggest that WOTC has learned how to manage software development. Given that WOTC seems insistent that online services are the wave of the future, this does not bode well for them.
On a side note, I am glad to see someone finally come up with a term that accurately describes Essentials. 4.5 may technically be accurate, but in the current distribution scheme, version numbers really don't matter all that much. Retooling, on the other hand, fits the situation quite well. It was an attempt to simplify, and to a certain extent correct and edit, all the previous releases back into a smaller number of books so that newer players didn't have to invest a fortune right off the bat. As such, it was somewhat of a mini starting over.