I have some issues with recent changes to Pathfinder Society


Pathfinder Society

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Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Agent, Virginia—Hampton Roads aka Darius Silverbolt

Alizor wrote:
Darius Silverbolt wrote:
If you read my posts you would know I would never want total unrestricted replay. players like you listed above are cheating plain and simple.
While I appreciate the reply, I think it's a little much to assume I didn't read your posts. Earlier you asked how it killed LFR and I gave a second-hand account for it. Mitigated or not, I think it's been shown that replay can be abused, and can destroy an Organized Play system.

My apologizes I didn't catch that your the one who posted before. I shall now remove my foot from my mouth ;-)

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Agent, Virginia—Hampton Roads aka Darius Silverbolt

Michael Griffin-Wade wrote:
0gre wrote:
One advantage of the replay rule is it's a great way to encourage people to step into the GM's seat. Our one big replay issue player was having issues and I suggested he GM a few scenarios he's played before and he is seriously considering stepping up to the plate.
Replay isn't really putting people into the GM seat in my area. I've managed to convice people to do the GMing, but thier not in it for the credit. One thing that will cause fewer GMs to show up though is less players at thier tables.

For me neither way has gained me GM's but I agree with odds are replay would make it harder. People for the most part have to want to GM.

I think there i where one of my failing come in at. I demand my GM's be prepared for the games they run. I have let people GM of coarse and some have failed to deliver. Either with level of preparation, lack of enough knowledge of how the game works, or didn't have the... (trying to find the word)flair to be a GM. I have gained some GM's and I have lost some due to my player attrition.

I want good GM's but I need to accept some player are just not GM material.

Grand Lodge

A few observations:

I get the impression that some of the people who wish "to go back to the old replay rule" were never actually using the rule. Replay was only ever supposed to allow a legal table to run (ie 4 players), so when I see mention of tables of 5-7 running with replayers, something different should have been done there in the past regardless.

I think that there are some legitimate concerns about how the change in rules is affecting the player turnout. However, I also know that the imbalance in credit under the old system delayed people from GMing, also slowing growth of the program. Why GM when you are cutting yourself off from a potential 5 more xp for your characters? (said from some players' perspective, not mine)

Increased output of scenarios would solve many of the problems, but is very very unlikely in the near future. Certainly not in Season 2. Mark and Hyrum already have a lot on their plate: FAQ system, revamp on the Guide to Org Play, maintain the current release schedule while working in some new low-level mods, conversion of Season 0,... and that's just stuff they have announced. Even 1 more scenario per month is a 50% increase on the workload in the development bottleneck. Give them time to work on what they already have.

As always, strictly my opinions, meaning no offense to those with different ones.

Grand Lodge

I think Thod's breakdown of the current scenario selection is helpful (thanks, Thod!). Without rehashing anything, I think people have made some good points for and against replay.

But I come down firmly against going the route of LFR and allowing unlimited replay with credit. As others have noted, I have seen what kind of gaming that leads to, and I would never want that for PFS. I think the current rule on replay balances out the needs of both players and organizers. While it may occasionally create an issue for both, I think it helps way more than it hurts.

Looking at Thod's breakdown, though, reminded me of something from Ye Aulde Living Greyhawk; the introductory module. There were a number of modules put out for LG that were Level One only, meant as an introduction to LG for the new player.

Could a similar initiative work here for Pathfinder Organized Play? If the PFS team were to make a specific call for Tier 1 (period) scenarios, written just for first level characters, that would add a bit more to the base of Thod's "pyramid" structure, and give FLGS some much-needed scenarios to run.

And in theory, the scenarios would be easier to write with only one tier to consider. Yes, they would still need to be edited at Paizo for content and quality, because we would never want the quality of our play to drop. But possibly even that would be quicker with only one tier to address.

And as a blue-sky suggestion: how about asking each Venture Captain to write and submit one Tier 1 scenario? (That could even be a requirement of becoming a VC, but that is a topic for another discussion). The VC's have proven their knowledge of PF and PFS play, so who better? Assuming all scenarios passed the editing process with flying colours, that would give us an enormous crop of scenarios just for level one characters.

Just my two cents, adjusted for inflation. Truth to tell, here in Edmonton we are just starting our Society play and issues of "replay" take a far back seat to issues of "hey, we've got a cool game, come out and play!" But this discussion has been interesting to read as a look towards where we might be headed in time.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

As somebody who is against replay for all the reasons already noted (I'm not going to rehash them), I think the focus is on the wrong issue.

The real problem at hand (as has been noted here and there) is entirely based in the release schedule/retirement schedule of the modules. It appears that the entire system was built around the assumption that nobody would die, and that there would be even progression through the levels from 1-12. The reality is that characters die, and a lot of new players stick around for a few sessions and then move on to other games. With that constant "rotating door" effect for low-tier modules, the actual release schedule has never been able to keep up with the demand for the people playing them. In the end, the "regulars" that come back time and again are complaining that modules they've already played need to be played again to rotate in the new players, and the vicious cycle continues. Until this problem is fixed, no change to the replay rule is going to fix the problem. There are ways to mitigate the impact of the problems, such as cutting back play to once every other week, and getting those players who keep showing up to run games, but even then it's going to take some time for equilibrium to be reached.

In the end, what we need is more modules. Until that happens, there will always be problems on both sides of the fence. To me, the best short-term solution is to create "PFS Compatibility" sheets for every Pathfinder Module. A module could provide 3XP, no treasure as identified in the module (however normal PFS rewards would be obtained), and PA could be tied into successfully completing the module, and perhaps an add-on side quest or five. I would envision the need for a conversion document which hopefully would come with a "cheap" purchase cost (say half that of a module) which will buy you the chronicle sheets, an outline of how characters can gain PA, and any adventure notes needed to run the module including a breakdown of treasure by encounter. This would still take time to implement, but since the majority of the module writing is already done, I would imagine it would take less time than writing a module from scratch. All this said though, I don't think the APs lend themselves well to PFS play (capping out at level 15 is the most obvious problem but there are others).

I'm interested to see what Mark and Hyrum come up with though. Problem is, as much as we'd like to see all the answers, they are but two people trying to run an OP environment, write modules, and keep up on all their other day-to-day duties. Change isn't going to happen overnight.

Grand Lodge

Knowledge of PFS and organizational ability do not necessarily go hand-in-hand with writing ability, Northron. I wish that they did :)

More 1st-level adventures would certainly help. And in many ways, the biggest swing factor in the low-level scenarios is between starting characters and 2nd level.

The other reason to increase "the base of the pyramid" is character death. This is the one area that has most caused replay in my FLGS.

EDIT: Partly ninja'ed by Slanky.

The Exchange 5/5

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

+1

I think in a perfect world there would be no need for replay as there would be infinite scenarios to run. However the underlying problem of all of this is the number of modules. If adding modules for the short term could solve the problem it would go a long way. A single module would take 3ish sessions to get through, and even playing on a weekly basis would take you many months to get through all the PFRPG modules currently in play (even discounting the level 12+ modules).

A solution on figuring out how to get more Pathfinder Society Sanctioned Material (tm) would be the best way to solve the replay rule.


Alizor wrote:

A single module would take 3ish sessions to get through, and even playing on a weekly basis would take you many months to get through all the PFRPG modules currently in play (even discounting the level 12+ modules).

A solution on figuring out how to get more Pathfinder Society Sanctioned Material (tm) would be the best way to solve the replay rule.

This.


K Neil Shackleton wrote:
The other reason to increase "the base of the pyramid" is character death.

Deaths causing a pyramid to grow... sounds historical.

The Exchange 5/5

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Just a thought experiment for the possibility of PFRPG Modules being included:

Crypt of Everflame (6 Chronicles, Level 1-3)
Masks of the Living God (6 Chronicles Level 3-5)
City of Golden Death (4 Chronicles Level 5-6.33)

These three modules would make an absolute fit for PFS play. They fit the multi-part series that some PFS adventures use and most importantly it has easy tie-ins to the Pathfinder Society. The biggest developmental hurdle is adding the faction missions and accounting for non optimal parties (not all level 1s playing Crypt etc.)

Also this series still has potential between Cons by offering one or multiple of it's parts as a part of the Con, no different than playing parts I and II of Eyes of the Ten in my opinion.

Carrion Hill (~3 Chronicles, Level 5-6)

Good short module. Would be good for a months worth of PFS or a dedicated Con group. This would need some definite tweaking to include PFS material though, increasing the developmental work. Also it is higher level which is a problem.

From Shore to Sea (~5-6 Chronicles, Level 6-7.66)

I have only skimmed this module so I don't know specifics. It doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to tie into the Pathfinder Society, however the module is again higher level.

Realm of the Fellknight Queen (~5-6 Chronicles, Level 7-9)

This module has many ways to be adapted to PFS and I think faction missions should be relatively simple as well. The issue with this module is that it is higher level again.

Curse of the Riven Sky (~5-6 Chronicles, Level 10-12)

This would be a good module to bring a character from level 10 to just pre-retirement. I also have only skimmed this module, but it seems relatively easy to adapt to PFS, with an "end item" as the quest. The biggest problem is again, it is higher level.

The Godsmouth Heresy (Conjectured ~5-6 Chronicles, Level 1-3)

Obviously I haven't read this module yet, but it seems like a pretty good fit for PFS play. It seems to have a relatively easy goal to adapt, and is low level.

So after review it really seems like adding modules would only slightly help the Level 1-5 range. There are a couple great modules in that area, but only 2 1st level modules would make it difficult for a completely new group. Adding modules would help, but it isn't a full blown solution. The other solution would be to convert 1st level 3.5 era modules. I haven't looked at those yet, but there might be some potential there as well.

Even just adding Godsmouth Heresy, and the Crypt of Everflame series would alleviate some issues though. At least three of these could be used bring a completely new character/player from 1st to 3rd level and give about 2 and a half months of play for the older players, giving close to 6 more PFS scenarios to come out in the intervening time.


We're working on getting Godsmouth Heresy sanctioned for PFS and that should happen soon. Godsmouth will be the first sanctioned module and we're discussing what will follow, although it will most likely be Crypt of the Everflame.

We've also shuffled the schedule around to get more low level scenarios out there, but that still takes time since the old schedule didn't have another low-Tier scenario out until sometime in March. Now the new one will be out much sooner.

We've also commissioned a series of 3 level 1 scenarios that will serve as an introduction to PFS and (in-game) the Society itself. We're working on the specifics but these will most likely allow for unlimited replay, but only with 1st level characters. Again, details are being worked out so none of this is final.

Hyrum.

Grand Lodge

Hyrum Savage wrote:
We've also commissioned a series of 3 level 1 scenarios that will serve as an introduction to PFS and (in-game) the Society itself. We're working on the specifics but these will most likely allow for unlimited replay, but only with 1st level characters. Again, details are being worked out so none of this is final.

This really takes care of most of the haters and keep the grinding aspect very much in check.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Agent, Virginia—Hampton Roads aka Darius Silverbolt

Hyrum Savage wrote:

We're working on getting Godsmouth Heresy sanctioned for PFS and that should happen soon. Godsmouth will be the first sanctioned module and we're discussing what will follow, although it will most likely be Crypt of the Everflame.

We've also shuffled the schedule around to get more low level scenarios out there, but that still takes time since the old schedule didn't have another low-Tier scenario out until sometime in March. Now the new one will be out much sooner.

We've also commissioned a series of 3 level 1 scenarios that will serve as an introduction to PFS and (in-game) the Society itself. We're working on the specifics but these will most likely allow for unlimited replay, but only with 1st level characters. Again, details are being worked out so none of this is final.

Hyrum.

^ Now that is some awesome sounding news! I loved the idea of converting of the the regular modules to PFS. Would give some decent relief and push more product.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Hyrum Savage wrote:

We're working on getting Godsmouth Heresy sanctioned for PFS and that should happen soon. Godsmouth will be the first sanctioned module and we're discussing what will follow, although it will most likely be Crypt of the Everflame.

We've also shuffled the schedule around to get more low level scenarios out there, but that still takes time since the old schedule didn't have another low-Tier scenario out until sometime in March. Now the new one will be out much sooner.

We've also commissioned a series of 3 level 1 scenarios that will serve as an introduction to PFS and (in-game) the Society itself. We're working on the specifics but these will most likely allow for unlimited replay, but only with 1st level characters. Again, details are being worked out so none of this is final.

Hyrum.

All of this is awesome news.

Out of curiosity more than anything, what kind of basic system is in place for turning a module into a "PFS sanctioned module"? Since chronicle sheets, XP, and treasure are involved, I imagine it's not just as cut and dry and "play the module, get credit".

The Exchange 5/5

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Hyrum Savage wrote:
We're working on getting Godsmouth Heresy sanctioned for PFS and that should happen soon. Godsmouth will be the first sanctioned module and we're discussing what will follow, although it will most likely be Crypt of the Everflame.

I think this sounds like wonderful news. I really look forward to seeing how Godsmouth Heresy will translate into XP/# of Chronicles, but I'm sure we'll see this soon with time. Hopefully in the long future (Next season or the season after) we can start getting 3 scenarios a month, or possibly even 4.

Liberty's Edge

Enevhar Aldarion,

I fly into Roanoke about once per quarter. I would be happy to run some PFS while I am there for anyone who is interested and/or helping run games for the Con (Depending what days it is). Thanks!

Dave

The Exchange

Dave the Barbarian wrote:

Enevhar Aldarion,

I fly into Roanoke about once per quarter. I would be happy to run some PFS while I am there for anyone who is interested and/or helping run games for the Con (Depending what days it is). Thanks!

Dave

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Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Agent, Virginia—Hampton Roads aka Darius Silverbolt

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:


And Darius, what part of Virginia are you in? I am helping out with a convention that is going to be in Roanoke in February that will need people to run some games. I am hoping to see Pathfinder and the PFS represented there.

Didn't see that till just now. I am in Virginia Beach / Norfolk area which is about 5 hours away.

If I am in town I would love to run some games. I am doing a CON in Willaimsberg in Jan (MARSCON)and if Doug "I never miss a CON" Miles is going then so am I. (work permitting)

The Exchange

Darius Silverbolt wrote:
Enevhar Aldarion wrote:


And Darius, what part of Virginia are you in? I am helping out with a convention that is going to be in Roanoke in February that will need people to run some games. I am hoping to see Pathfinder and the PFS represented there.

Didn't see that till just now. I am in Virginia Beach / Norfolk area which is about 5 hours away.

If I am in town I would love to run some games. I am doing a CON in Willaimsberg in Jan (MARSCON)and if Doug "I never miss a CON" Miles is going then so am I. (work permitting)

Sadly I am all booked up:

Jan 28-30 OwlCon - Houston, TX
Feb 11-13 GamiCon - Iowa City, IA
Feb 18-20 BASHCon - Toledo, OH
Feb 26-27* Spellstorm - Toronto, ON
Mar 04-06 GryphCon - Guelph, ON
Mar 11-13 Who's Yer Con, Indianapolis, IN

*But I will see if VC/Ontario Shackleton will release me from my pledge to assist at Spellstorm, just to make Paul drive 5 hours through the Virginia backwoods in mid-winter ;p

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Texas—San Antonio aka Dragnmoon

Doug Miles wrote:

Jan 28-30 OwlCon - Houston, TX

I tottaly missed that you are going to this, and I am a GM PFS there! Will be good to se ya again.

The Exchange

Dragnmoon wrote:
Doug Miles wrote:

Jan 28-30 OwlCon - Houston, TX

I tottaly missed that you are going to this, and I am a GM PFS there! Will be good to se ya again.

You must have stopped reading the 25 daily e-mail updates Silverhair2008 is sending out :)

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Texas—San Antonio aka Dragnmoon

Doug Miles wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
Doug Miles wrote:

Jan 28-30 OwlCon - Houston, TX

I tottaly missed that you are going to this, and I am a GM PFS there! Will be good to se ya again.
You must have stopped reading the 25 daily e-mail updates Silverhair2008 is sending out :)

No I read every single one, I just missed that you where in the emails. You need to say hey this is me Doug!! you know the 5 star GM!

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/5

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Doug Miles wrote:

Sadly I am all booked up:

Jan 28-30 OwlCon - Houston, TX
Feb 11-13 GamiCon - Iowa City, IA
Feb 18-20 BASHCon - Toledo, OH
Feb 26-27* Spellstorm - Toronto, ON
Mar 04-06 GryphCon - Guelph, ON
Mar 11-13 Who's Yer Con, Indianapolis, IN

Sheesh Doug, make sure you plan some breathing time in there too. You are really showing you deserve the 5-star rating.

Grand Lodge

cblome59 wrote:
Doug Miles wrote:

Sadly I am all booked up:

Jan 28-30 OwlCon - Houston, TX
Feb 11-13 GamiCon - Iowa City, IA
Feb 18-20 BASHCon - Toledo, OH
Feb 26-27* Spellstorm - Toronto, ON
Mar 04-06 GryphCon - Guelph, ON
Mar 11-13 Who's Yer Con, Indianapolis, IN
Sheesh Doug, make sure you plan some breathing time in there too. You are really showing you deserve the 5-star rating.

He has to increase his lead on everyone else.


K Neil Shackleton wrote:
He has to increase his lead on everyone else.

I ran 18 scenarios in November, and Doug still managed to pull away. :)

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Texas—San Antonio aka Dragnmoon

What blows my mind, is not only does he have the time on his hands to GM so much, is that he has the money to travel so much!

I could probably pull that much traveling off to, but I would most likely lose my wife in the process ;).

The Exchange

I'm getting nervous, Kyle is within 200 scenarios of me...
I might have to hire me a hitman a la Tonya Harding vs Nancy Kerrigan.

The Exchange

Dragnmoon wrote:

What blows my mind, is not only does he have the time on his hands to GM so much, is that he has the money to travel so much!

I could probably pull that much traveling off to, but I would most likely lose my wife in the process ;).

There's the crux of things - I don't have any baggage. Not calling your wife a bag or anything... ;)

Grand Lodge 5/5

Kyle Baird wrote:
K Neil Shackleton wrote:
He has to increase his lead on everyone else.
I ran 18 scenarios in November, and Doug still managed to pull away. :)

I did 20 - but hey - wait a moment - this was my whole first year as PFS GM ... - 28th November 2009 (Dragonmeet as my first ever outing to organized play) to November 27th this year.

Even if I speed up in my second year - this is still way, way out ... And I was contemplating if I would manage my second star at the end of January and be proud about it ...

Thod

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Agent, Virginia—Hampton Roads aka Darius Silverbolt

Doug Miles wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:

What blows my mind, is not only does he have the time on his hands to GM so much, is that he has the money to travel so much!

I could probably pull that much traveling off to, but I would most likely lose my wife in the process ;).

There's the crux of things - I don't have any baggage. Not calling your wife a bag or anything... ;)

Ah the advantage of being single.....Those were good gaming times....thank god my wife doesn't read these forum's


Darius Silverbolt wrote:


Ah the advantage of being single.....Those were good gaming times....thank god my wife doesn't read these forum's

I hear ya. For the first time in awhile I'm going to have to turn down the opportunity to game. (Currently playing 1, co-running 1, running a lunch time game, planning another game, and now invited to join another.) If I was single and didn't have kids I'd have more than enough time. But my wife would kill me if I play in another game. :>

Hyrum.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Hyrum Savage wrote:
Darius Silverbolt wrote:


Ah the advantage of being single.....Those were good gaming times....thank god my wife doesn't read these forum's

I hear ya. For the first time in awhile I'm going to have to turn down the opportunity to game. (Currently playing 1, co-running 1, running a lunch time game, planning another game, and now invited to join another.) If I was single and didn't have kids I'd have more than enough time. But my wife would kill me if I play in another game. :>

Hyrum.

"But honey, technically I'm just working late."


Thod wrote:
I did 20 - but hey - wait a moment - this was my whole first year as PFS GM ...

Same here. Heck, I had only ran 10 games before PaizoCon this year! I've shared this elsewhere: LINK


Doug Miles wrote:

I'm getting nervous, Kyle is within 200 scenarios of me...

I might have to hire me a hitman a la Tonya Harding vs Nancy Kerrigan.

WHY ME?!!!!! WHY?!!!! WAAAAAH!

Thankfully I only need one good leg to drive.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Texas—San Antonio aka Dragnmoon

I Approve this Thread jack! Except for the part Doug calls my wife a Bag! I think I will bring her to the Con, tell her you said that and point you out to her..;).

The Exchange

Ah, to be single again...

The house would be a disaster, and I'd be digging through my laundry to find clean clothes.

Instead, I have a wife that makes sure I do my laundry and fold and put away my clothes.

Of course the house is still a disaster, but what do you expect with 4 kids under the age of 10 and all their friends over after school everyday.


I'd like to point out that I believe my situation to be far superior to that of Mr. Miles. I have no kids and a wife who's willing to game with me, and is supportive of my gaming habits.

Spoiler:
At least she was before Doug killed her 10th level sorcerer! Bad Doug! Bad!

The Exchange

Dragnmoon wrote:
I Approve this Thread jack! Except for the part Doug calls my wife a Bag! I think I will bring her to the Con, tell her you said that and point you out to her..;).

"No ma'am! I didn't say 'bag', certainly not! I said Baggins, like a hobbit--you know, the charming and lovable characters in that movie about the magic ring. 'Baggins', I said. It's a high compliment in the gaming community. Yes, ma'am!" [cringe][duck]

Shall I stop digging the hole or just keep going for improved cover?

The Exchange 4/5

My wife games with me too, so I don't see problems on either side of the fence. My house stays clean, laundry stays done, and I can play in as many games as I want to!

Paizo Employee Managing Developer

Dragnmoon wrote:
Doug Miles wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
Doug Miles wrote:

Jan 28-30 OwlCon - Houston, TX

I tottaly missed that you are going to this, and I am a GM PFS there! Will be good to se ya again.
You must have stopped reading the 25 daily e-mail updates Silverhair2008 is sending out :)
No I read every single one, I just missed that you where in the emails. You need to say hey this is me Doug!! you know the 5 star GM!

I missed it too. Holy s$&@. Doug's coming to Texas!

Grand Lodge

Adam Daigle wrote:
Holy s~@!. Doug's coming to Texas!

No no no. He's coming to Indy and it's not even GenCon! :)

And Bob. And Kyle. And Thea. And Todd! w00t!


Continuing a little with the threadjack, I had already talked to Josh a bit about the support Paizo gives for PFS events, but I will have to email Hyrum or Mark about that again to make sure it is covered. And while it is going to be a general fan convention, there will be a good amount of space for gaming, three or four good-sized rooms. Even the smallest room set aside for gaming should hold four or five tables easily.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Sorry, guys, but I'm putting the focus back on Benn Roe. He was a little upset with me, and I feel the need to explain:

Benn Roe wrote:

Drogon wrote:

Benn has stated that he does not want to run his events like a business. His arguments all boil down to the fact that he merely wants to be able to run ad hoc gaming sessions, without concern for replay issues. While your suggestions are stellar, Benn is worried that he'd be taking advantage of his customers were he to do those things.
It is sad to see a gaming community die, but effort is required to keep them truly thriving.

I really resent this implication.

I don’t believe I was making an implication. I was merely pointing out to everyone that their offers of assistance were misdirected. You started this thread with a long statement about the change in the replay rules, finishing with this:

Benn Roe on November 1st wrote:

You never know who's going to show up to play, and you have to make sure that mods are read thoroughly and prepared before people start showing up, but when you prepare mods X and Z and people show up who've played both already, there isn't much you can do but turn them away unless you have access to some sort of replay options…

…Without allowing for the option of replay,…

…please, please reconsider disallowing replay.

After which multiple people make a bunch of suggestions. Your arguments?

Benn Roe wrote:
If they're replaying, they already have the potential to ruin the game for others, which I agree is kind of a bummer, but with so few mods available it seems like a necessary risk. If and when somebody steps out of line, it seems like action can be taken (denying them a chronicle, kicking them out, etc.), but otherwise what choice is there? There either needs to somehow be twice as many mods (seems unlikely), or some sort of replay needs to be possible.

And things like:

Benn Roe wrote:
even with a preregistration system in place would likely still have people show up who hadn't preregistered…it's really difficult to plan accordingly.

With lots of agreements of people’s statements, always followed by “but…”

So, more people offered more suggestions. You followed with

Benn Roe wrote:
Now it's true that we could be more organized about the way we're scheduling mods. We could offer advance sign-ups and we could schedule mods ahead of time, and we're going to have to start doing that now, but…

There’s that word again. This is followed by a few more excuses and…

Benn Roe wrote:
And it still doesn't guarantee that a mod or two mods exist that everyone who've signed up will be able to play.

Still more ideas were given. Included were my own comments about making your PFS day follow a business model. You had this to say:

Benn Roe wrote:

I assure you my motivations are less to do with my fiscal bottom line and more to do with the happiness and well-being of the customers who enjoy this program (myself included, lest I sound too altruistic). Is this a profitable program? Nope…

…Don't get me wrong: I understand business, I just don't much like it. I have every intention of keeping my store afloat, but for me there is such a thing as enough money and I'm not in the market to exploit people for the sake of business.

At which point you again advocate replay.

At that point, I left you alone, as you obviously did not want to listen to suggestions. More people tried, however. You had this to say in response:

Benn Roe on November 15th wrote:

1) We have not switched over to any system of announcing the mods in advance or pre-registering, as our November calendar was already published before I knew about these changes. Thus, things could go differently next month, and I will happily make my report then too.

2) We've already decided to scale Pathfinder Society back about 50% next month and replace the missing weeks with our own living campaign to keep our players interested, so if and when I report next month, we will have changed more than just our organizational system.
3) We are now attempting to track which mods each of our players have already played.
So, here goes... Last week, it took us an hour to figure out what mod it was possible to play, based on who showed up. I'm not exaggerating. It literally took an hour. And that's not counting people filling out the sheets to let us know what mods they'd already played. That's just how long it took to cross-reference the players' sheets and then balance the issue of who had which characters at which levels and then think about whether those characters could all be made to fit into a legal table where nobody was playing up or down too many levels, but that we were still running the mod at the appropriate level for the APL. It was a serious nightmare.

So, after showing that you provided a…difficult…experience for people who showed up, you stated that the following week you had zero show up. Considering that “it was a serious nightmare” I don’t know that this is a surprise. At this point, you again point out that the new replay rules are bad.

And, yet, more people weigh in with more ideas and thoughts. You have this to say this past sunday:

Benn Roe on November 28th wrote:
Last Monday, we again had a turnout of zero. This replay rule has ended our ability to participate in Pathfinder Society. Today is our last shot, but I'm afraid we're going to have to cancel the program.

In every single case you shot down peoples’ suggestions and made it clear that lack of replay credit was the problem your program had.

So, I’m sorry if you think I’m implying anything. I’m not. I’m stating a fact: you don’t want help remodeling your PFS nights. You want exactly what I said: the ability to run ad hoc games without concern for whether replay will get in the way.

I really do hope you go forward with the plans you initially said you would implement for December. I really do hope that you actually are successful with them. I suspect, however, that you have passed judgment on the results, already, and the failure of your program is a foregone conclusion.

That makes me sad for your players.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau aka Arnim Thayer

Soooo looking forward to seeing how the "Modules to PFS" conversion turns out! This could open up some new avenues for PFS play, without the long term commitment that an AP seems to lead in to. And how great would it be to see the Kobold King series turned into a PFS scenario... especially with an Andoran PC!

Grand Lodge

Drogon wrote:
I really do hope you go forward with the plans you initially said you would implement for December. I really do hope that you actually are successful with them. I suspect, however, that you have passed judgment on the results, already, and the failure of your program is a foregone conclusion.

It's shocking that without buying into the value of an organizing structure, attempts to utilize an organizing structure will fail.

Scarab Sages

Drogon wrote:
That makes me sad for your players.

once again, do you have to flog the game store owner?

Your suggesttions didn't work for him and he is giving his feedback to Paizo.

You've already passed judgment on Ben, why would he listen to you now?

The Exchange 5/5

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Kyle Baird wrote:
I'd like to point out that I believe my situation to be far superior to that of Mr. Miles. I have no kids and a wife who's willing to game with me, and is supportive of my gaming habits.

+1 and my wife even DMs just as much as I do now!

The Exchange

Alizor wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
I'd like to point out that I believe my situation to be far superior to that of Mr. Miles. I have no kids and a wife who's willing to game with me, and is supportive of my gaming habits.
+1 and my wife even DMs just as much as I do now!

Wow... you guys make it sound like women gamers and supportive wives are few are far between... wait ... yeah .. I'll go back to my corner and prep another mod :P

The Exchange

Mark Garringer wrote:
Adam Daigle wrote:
Holy s~@!. Doug's coming to Texas!

No no no. He's coming to Indy and it's not even GenCon! :)

And Bob. And Kyle. And Thea. And Todd! w00t!

It's a mini-reunion.... we seem to be having lots of those since Origins lol ... I can't wait .. time off is in the bag and now it's just the waiting process (did I mention I dislike waiting?)

Besides it'll be a chance to celebrate my B'day.. I'll be ummmmmmmm 25 again.. that's it 25

Grand Lodge

Thea Peters wrote:
Besides it'll be a chance to celebrate my B'day.. I'll be ummmmmmmm 25 again.. that's it 25

You turn 25 this year too? Awesome, me too! :P

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