| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Before I read the FAQ I thought this class was awesome.
You give up spellcasting and the ability to use spell based magic items in return for the ability to glow like a glam rocker. Effectively an at will bless that gets better as you level. You also get a couple more lay-on-hands per day.
Seemed cool. Loose access to some very nice spells, get constant low powered combat aid. Maybe better than the base class maybe worse but not far in either direction.
Then I read the faq.
Ugg.
So given that turning the lights on now burns a lay-on-hands is the class still the rough equilivent of a base paladin?
I say no but I may be missing something.
Thoughts?
~will
(formerly glowing)
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The FAQ saying that the nimbus using lay on hands is kind of ridiculous, since it doesn't even imply that anywhere in the text. Causing it to use a limited resource (lay on hands) in place of a different limited resource (spellcasting) makes it extremely subpar. I think that this ruling is a real mistake, and the Paizo staff should seriously consider reversing the ruling. I would never have started playing one in Legacy of Fire if I had to give up spellcasting and get a less powerful ability that used up a good ability. I certainly won't be using that errata in games I run.
Jeremy Puckett
The ability definately needed some definition on the light effect and its intensity, but to suddenly completely change how it works seems an unecessary overreaction to something that wasn't even identified as being a problem.
The ability replaces your spellcasting already, so it shouldn't also drain you of your lay on hands as well. If the ability required lay on hands to use, it should have replaced the mercy class feature instead of spells. If using it at will was too big of an issue, it should be treated more like a special ability gained from a domain or something like a spellcasting class has, and it should be useable a 3+ CHA modifier times per day.
This FAQ ruling really makes this variant less interesting to play IMO...
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Wow, so now almost all the special abilities of the class use the same resource pool? That's odd. Nimbus, Lay on Hands, and Channel Energy.
Assuming a 14 CHA, you'll have 5 uses per day at 4th level, 6 at 6th, 8 at 8th, 9 at 10th, 11 at 12th, 12 at 14th, 14 at 16th, 15 at 18th, and 17 at 20th.
I don't have a lot of experience with playing paladins, so, is that enough uses per day to get the job done?
No offence to anyone at Paizo, but I really hate errata that completely changes how a class ability works rather than just clarifying the text or adding or subtracting a few words. Its one of the things that annoys me about another game that you can't run a "current" campaign while utilizing the books, since the errata appears to be a whole alternate ruleset.
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It's really not that bad guys... it's not like maintaining the light costs you uses of LOH. Just set it, and forget it. I don't think the town will be too unnerved by a paladin of truth, justice, and righteousness emitting a glow, in fact they will be BOLSTERED by it.
You talk of knee-jerk reactions on their part ... pot meet kettle.
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Excuse my poor wording.
An ability that lasts 1 minute will last you for an entire combat, if not multiple combats.
Even a halfheartedly built paladin will have a charisma score of at least +2. That means that by 4th level with no other investment a WoHL will have 5 uses of his LoH pool a day. I think as a DM I would be hard pressed to put a party into more than 4 individual encounters a day against their will to rest at this level. That is not to mention the ability to get Extra LoH as a feat, which is in itself a worthwhile thing to get even for non WoHL.
What I am saying is, the sky is not falling guys.
Excuse my poor wording.
An ability that lasts 1 minute will last you for an entire combat, if not multiple combats.
Even a halfheartedly built paladin will have a charisma score of at least +2. That means that by 4th level with no other investment a WoHL will have 5 uses of his LoH pool a day. I think as a DM I would be hard pressed to put a party into more than 4 individual encounters a day against their will to rest at this level. That is not to mention the ability to get Extra LoH as a feat, which is in itself a worthwhile thing to get even for non WoHL.
What I am saying is, the sky is not falling guys.
The closest comparision would be to the skirmisher option for rangers, as they also give up spellcasting, but they get abilities that don't drain any of their other resources, they just get to use them a number of times a day. Thats a very big difference compared to having to use one of your other limited abilities to use what you gave up your spells for.
Where is that FAQ? I missed it.
Excuse my poor wording.
An ability that lasts 1 minute will last you for an entire combat, if not multiple combats.
Even a halfheartedly built paladin will have a charisma score of at least +2. That means that by 4th level with no other investment a WoHL will have 5 uses of his LoH pool a day. I think as a DM I would be hard pressed to put a party into more than 4 individual encounters a day against their will to rest at this level. That is not to mention the ability to get Extra LoH as a feat, which is in itself a worthwhile thing to get even for non WoHL.
What I am saying is, the sky is not falling guys.
I don't think the sky is falling. I am just trying to see what the WotHL gets that makes up for the loss of spells and spell items. I am trying to see what is awesome about the class.
Brfore the errata I saw the awesome in the Warrior. They never stopped.
Run a Paladin out of spells,smites,hands and you've crippled them.
Run a cleric out of channels and spells and you've crippled them.
Run a pre-erreata WotHL out of hands and you barely slow her down.
The base Paladin has much much more short term power and in exchange the WotHL gets near Fighter levels of staying power. In my view this was awesome and pretty balanced. In play the base Paladin would be more powerful than the pre-errata WotHL because folks will rest when spells run low so the Paladin will be close to topped up most of the time.
Anyway this is getting long and I have election news to follow. Suffice it to say I see the Warrior of the Flickering Light as a crippled paladin rather that a varient paladin. If I was an evil mastermind I know which version of Paladin I would want to see knocking on my Dungeon door.
~will
If you are in the US, remember to vote.
So an ability that is activated by a standard action and is not limited in uses per day and does a laundry list of things doesn't strike anyone complaining about the FAQ as even slightly overpowered??
Yeah, you don't get spells nor do you get to use spell completion/trigger items. But you are buffing and providing a benefit to all allies in the area with a single use for a significant period of time. Losing spells is usually not worth it utility wise, but sometimes players don't really care for spells or don't use them except in down time. Something like this would have appeal in that case.
I don't think the sky is falling. I am just trying to see what the WotHL gets that makes up for the loss of spells and spell items. I am trying to see what is awesome about the class.
Brfore the errata I saw the awesome in the Warrior. They never stopped.
Run a Paladin out of spells,smites,hands and you've crippled them.
Run a cleric out of channels and spells and you've crippled them.
Run a pre-erreata WotHL out of hands and you barely slow her down.
And that (the bolded item) is exactly the issue.
Pre Errata, unlimited ability uses is rather broken. We're talking, perma bless/prayer, (near)unlimited restoration of ability score damage, perma energy resistance for everyone, perma Daylight, perma fortification effect for everyone... Not to mention a pretty nice AoE a few times a day as well as the typical LoH abilities.Trying to do that ONCE would blow through a significant portion of a "regular" paladin's spells per day. How is that even remotely balanced?
I just think the odd thing is that:
1. There is no indication in the original text that lay on hands has anything to do with this.
and
2. The ranger ability that replaces spells doesn't use up another resource of the ranger, it just has a limit on how many times it can be used per day.
I would have been less surprised if the errata had said, "add the following sentence: This ability can be used once per day plus one additional time per point of charisma bonus, minimum one time per day."
I would have been less surprised if the errata had said, "add the following sentence: This ability can be used once per day plus one additional time per point of charisma bonus, minimum one time per day."
Well, you get an additional use of lay on hands per day per four levels, so it is not so different from what you say there, plus you can use it even more often if you use your regular lay on hands uses.
I just think the odd thing is that:
1. There is no indication in the original text that lay on hands has anything to do with this.
Well it [i]is[/] possible that they actually forgot to put it in there, things like that happen. That is exactly what FAQ/Errata is for. The product is good but mistakes are made no?
2. The ranger ability that replaces spells doesn't use up another resource of the ranger, it just has a limit on how many times it can be used per day.
Well part of that is, what other "resource" does a ranger have? Most of his abilities are flat out bonuses. They have no use per day limit intrinsically built into the class to use up.
I would have been less surprised if the errata had said, "add the following sentence: This ability can be used once per day plus one additional time per point of charisma bonus, minimum one time per day."
But that would still leave the paladin with that AND the LoH uses which Paizo apparently sees as too much. That would basically give the Paladin two things to watch (more book keeping - which Paizo is trying to keep to a minimum) and two abilities based off of CHR Mod (which is the main stat and going to be high regardless - a double dip).
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Paladin swift action LoH = 1 use of LoH
Paladin channels = 2 uses of LoH
Adding another ability that uses LoH is too much, even if the character is built around it. IMO anyway.
I just looked over the ability again, and while I agree that it needs a limitation, I don't think it should come from a limited resource like Lay on Hands, which needs a feat or leveling or a high Charisma score to have more than a few uses a day.
Paladin swift action LoH = 1 use of LoH
Paladin channels = 2 uses of LoH
Adding another ability that uses LoH is too much, even if the character is built around it. IMO anyway.
I just looked over the ability again, and while I agree that it needs a limitation, I don't think it should come from a limited resource like Lay on Hands, which needs a feat or leveling or a high Charisma score to have more than a few uses a day.
You are operating under the assumption you have to use all those abilities all the time. That simply isn't the case all the time. You're not fighting undead? Why are channeling attempts needed?? Have a character who have access to healing? Why are you using LoH unless it is in an emergency?? Have someone else providing bless/inspire/prayer? Why are you using your Holy Light ability??
Also this alternate ability allows you to not focus completely on CHR and branch out into the actual melee centric build and stats without "losing out" on things like spells and getting absolutely nothing for it. Having a decent CHR is nice to boost your pool, but you aren't penalized by not getting spells at all because you CHR isn't high enough to qualify you for them ("Crap, my CHR is 11 as I wanted physical stats, I'll never get spells past 1st level unless I get stat boosters").
Are there going to be situations where everything could be used? Absolutely, but there are going to be situations where every characters abilities could be blown and be effective. It's referred to as a "nova" and why people complain about the 15 minute adventuring day.