Also, I assume that the "free" spells per level gained by a wizard do count against the wizard's WBL calc. Is this correct?
No. Its a class feature. You may as well count the druids animal companion in there too. How much leather CAN you get out of a wooly mammoth....
More attention to WBL is only required when doing a theoretical comparison of two or more classes or when participating in organized play.This theoretical comparison is what I am trying to do.
I just need the method of valuing the spellbook's WBL value. I can't find a clear answer on what the general accepted method is.
People can't agree on whether crafted items count half or full, let alone something like spell book cost. I personally would count them, but keep in mind that strict adherence to wbl will likely cause more issues than it solves.
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People can't agree on whether crafted items count half or full, let alone something like spell book cost. I personally would count them, but keep in mind that strict adherence to wbl will likely cause more issues than it solves.
Crafted items cost half the price to craft, but count full in WbL. When we begun to play, soon 7 years ago, we didn't understand this, and assumed that the huge treasure chests we found were openly a way to get twice our assumed WbL (a concept we didn't even know about, reading only the treasure tables), getting ever more ridiculous characters in top of the "reroll again, your friend is more powerful and it's not fun" 18/16/17/18/16/11 monsters.
Most of the time, the rulebook assumes that your money comes from previously selling items at half the price, so you are trading 1000 GP of equipment from your wealth (sold 500) for 1000 GP of others items in your wealth (cost 500). The ugly part comes when you don't sell anything and the DM gives lots of money to craft from and double your effective wealth.Each DM has his own way to counter this. Easiest way is to limit pure money treasures. Another way is to make crafting needing the use of magical ingredients that correspond to the same price in other processed magic items, 100% cost for 100% price.
I'm not a fan of the WBL concept. What's the point in adventuring, if you know the treasure is capped off?
Random thoughts, in no particular order...
* Potions get passed around, who gets 'charged' for them?
* If nobody finds the chest in the hidden compartment behind the throne... Don't worry about it. WHatever was in there will get given to you in the next chest you find... after all the game ASSUMES you found it...
* It enforces the 'gift certificate' concept of treasure. It doesn't matter WHAT you find in the dungeon... just trade it in for the magic gear you WANT...
That... Really bugs me... Treasure should be awesome and special when you find it... not just raw materials for your own crafting/buying purposes...
I LIKE the idea of starting higher characters with some options... but once the game begins... FORGET it.
Most of our groups have a massive 'Group fund' that helps finance potions and crafting and etc.... It's near impossible to know what my rogue has compared to what HIS wizard has...
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I'm not a fan of the WBL concept. What's the point in adventuring, if you know the treasure is capped off?
Random thoughts, in no particular order...
* Potions get passed around, who gets 'charged' for them?
* If nobody finds the chest in the hidden compartment behind the throne... Don't worry about it. WHatever was in there will get given to you in the next chest you find... after all the game ASSUMES you found it...
* It enforces the 'gift certificate' concept of treasure. It doesn't matter WHAT you find in the dungeon... just trade it in for the magic gear you WANT...
That... Really bugs me... Treasure should be awesome and special when you find it... not just raw materials for your own crafting/buying purposes...
I LIKE the idea of starting higher characters with some options... but once the game begins... FORGET it.
Most of our groups have a massive 'Group fund' that helps finance potions and crafting and etc.... It's near impossible to know what my rogue has compared to what HIS wizard has...
No one said you couldn't sometimes have a bit more than the recommended WbL. In my previous campaign, at level 8, after having done the whole 7th level with not even the recommended 7th level WbL due to potion-consuming and no treasure coming, we suddenly got the equivalent of the wealth a soon-to-be-9th level character should have. And treasure isn't the only point in adventuring...
* The character giving the potions is the one paying for them at the beginning. Hey, he's doing a gift, after all, why should the drinker pay for it ?
* If your story really needs to find the beautiful collar behind the throne, finding it should be obvious from the beginning. It's not because you'll eventually gain something worth your WbL that this something is what you really wanted or what was in the previous chest you missed. If your barbarian wants a Furious weapon, it's not going to fall from the sky or conveniently be bought in the market just because he has the money for it.
* It's not because you want something that you'll get it. Treasure is still a gift from the DM. In the same way, if the DM gives something the players really don't give a crap about, he shouldn't complain about them not being grateful. If you want your treasures to be special, give the players what they need, even in the form of unique "raw materials". A furious weapon (8300 POs minimum) could need a broken Berserking sword that puts people into a rage but also absorbs 15 strength, and a +1 sword from Grumpy, the old half-orc known for his mood.
Each person in our group pays for his own needs. Magic items either always were quest items that ended lost or given to a NPC, or were taken by characters who didn't found anything useful for some times after this. One time, we also asked the barbarian to pay the group the item's selling price for something he wanted to keep, so no one felt looted of their part.
WBL is gear you have, not money you spent, by my understanding.Aelryinth: remember that spellbooks have a gold piece value based on the number and level of spells contained within them, and the 2 free spells wizards get each level are added to their spellbook. Spellbooks are a piece of gear, and thus are considered part of WBL. Thus, yes, LT is correct; the 2 free spells do technically count against WBL. I don't think I've ever had any DM actually ask a player what the value of their spellbook is, though.The main 'permanent' cost of spells is the cost of acquisition, not the cost of scribing (bound to be almost nil with Blessed Books). While the book might have value, no money was expended on his spells by level, so it shouldn't count against his WBL, because he's spent nothing on them.
===Aelryinth
That's correct.
That's why I compered it to a Rogue who steals something valuable.
The Wizard gets the spells for free, but then they become part of his gear and, thus, count against his WBL.
I guess then the black blade Magus' weapon counts against his WBL as well? What's the point then?
I have two ideas for how to value a spellbook, but neither is supported by the WBL rules more then the other.
Direct Replacement Cost. The cost to a wizard if he showed up to town with nothing but a robe and a big pile of gold.
(buy each spell as a scroll, and pay the cost to scribe it into the book)
Assumed Creation Cost. The wizard gets all the cantrips and whatever the number of first level spells they start with, plus 2 of each level of spell that they can cast beyond first. Beyond that, the wizard must buy scrolls, and pay to scribe them into the book.
Honestly, it really doesn't matter much at all, as long as you don't make the wizard take the time to do all that scribing. Wizards don't need much help holding their own, especially at higher levels. Getting to pick the exact spells you want is a HUGE benefit. If the player complains, just tell them that you will randomly generate a spell book for them...
What's the point of creating an imaginary character and measurring their progress by some number that measures how much imaginary stuff they have?I'm not a fan of the WBL concept. What's the point in adventuring, if you know the treasure is capped off?
???
Soooo... not liking a cap on potential treasures, = No point in playing the game?
Maybe I didn't understand this point...
No one said you couldn't sometimes have a bit more than the recommended WbL.
Actually, on some threads I've seen, that's exactly what people argue.
In my previous campaign, at level 8, after having done the whole 7th level with not even the recommended 7th level WbL due to potion-consuming and no treasure coming, we suddenly got the equivalent of the wealth a soon-to-be-9th level character should have.
This I would agree with!
And treasure isn't the only point in adventuring...
Actually... The search for treasure/ Fortune and Glory/ etc... Really IS one of the major reasons for adventuring. It's not the ONLY one, by any stretch... But some characters (I'm looking at YOU Rogues...) Their main motivation is acquisition of wealth.
Knowing that whatever heist they are planning/dragon they're going to slay, isn't going to get them any more than xxxx gold, is a serious enthusiasm killer.
When "I" plan to kill a dragon, I like to imagine the massive piles of gold and gems that are supposed to be there... If I already know that I'm only allowed 3500 in gold and gear this level... That isn't as much fun.
As long as things are set at 'guideline' status and not rigidly enforced like some people suggest, I'm fine ;)
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No one said you couldn't sometimes have a bit more than the recommended WbL.Actually, on some threads I've seen, that's exactly what people argue.
And treasure isn't the only point in adventuring...Actually... The search for treasure/ Fortune and Glory/ etc... Really IS one of the major reasons for adventuring. It's not the ONLY one, by any stretch... But some characters (I'm looking at YOU Rogues...) Their main motivation is acquisition of wealth.
Knowing that whatever heist they are planning/dragon their going to slay, isn't going to get them any more than xxxx gold, is a serious enthusiasm killer.
When "I" plan to kill a dragon, I like to imagine the massive piles of gold and gems that are supposed to be there... If I already know that I'm only allowed 3500 in gold and gear this level... That isn't as much fun.
As long as things are set at 'guideline' status and not rigidly enforced like some people suggest, I'm fine ;)
You don't know how much the dragon's treasure is worth. You also don't know if he's not actually keeping a special sword that could upgrade yours. You don't know if the villagers will not ask you kindly if you can redistribute part of the treasure to help them pass the winter, or if another group of adventurers will not try to loot you from your hard-earned treasure. You don't know if the treasure will not actually be a recompense for your party's RP, giving you enough to fill up to half your next level's WbL AND a warning that this precise next level will be hard since you are getting so much to prepare yourself.
Being sad because you think you'll "probably only get 3000 GPs" is at the same time a form of pretty useless metagaming since you don't actually know what could happen, and the sign that you think you already earned these 3000 GPs.Last time we got a big sum of money in my group, it was 300 PP each. At level 9. And god, we were happy !... especially because healing for us is a matter of potions, heal check and natural healing when this is possible.
But I agree this is a matter of point of view, and of games. If the DM is the kind to follow blindly the WbL table without thinking about possible drama or nice surprises for the players, it can lower the pleasure of finding some wealth.
Did you have any thoughts about the calculation of the spellbook's WBL value?Also, I assume that the "free" spells per level gained by a wizard do count against the wizard's WBL calc. Is this correct?No. Its a class feature. You may as well count the druids animal companion in there too. How much leather CAN you get out of a wooly mammoth....
just the Scribing costs of the additional spells above and beyond the 2 per level that they got. Anything else cost them no money to obtain. You don't charge a druid for his dog, you don't charge a pally for his horse, and you don't charge the bard the value of his numerous one night stands.
Ive been recently re-thinking my views on WBL mainly. I have Gm'd a group to lvl 7, doing Modules up to hungry are the dead. The group has not had a chance to do any money mart stuff and mostly except for a few cheap things just has Gear found in the Modules.
Book Value they range from Well over WBL to under WBL by half based on the Gear found. The only One in the group i think that is potentially over powered though is the Sorcerer.
He got a really good item from d1 and then a rod of empower. The diference is his gear all Synergizes 100% with his class the rest of the group it is all Miss Matched.
So how do a i treat a 13 dex dwarf paladinw ith non magic mothril fullplate and 3 +1 magic weapons? Based on book value he is at WBL about. But his stats and race dont remotely support the Mithril fullplate. (well other than that he gets to feel badass in it)
So mostly ive just ignored WBL and adjusted where could based on feel.
Soooo... not liking a cap on potential treasures, = No point in playing the game?I'm baffled by the fact that you somehow pulled that out of what I wrote.
Completely baffled
I said 'what's the point of adventuring'... you replied 'what's the point of making imaginary characters..'
It was an odd comeback...
It's not a major reason for playing the game. The reason people play the game is to have fun. A boring, painful session in which the person's character gets tons of gold is not going to keep the player playing. For the adventure to happen, the -player- needs to be involved. They need a challenge which is difficult but not impossible and which requires creative problem solving and a sense of control over their own character, etc. The player needs the sense of teamwork in sharing the shine time with other players and in combining everyone's characters' abilities to overcome the challenge. The player needs to feel that their character is making an essential contribution to achieving the goal and not just because the GM Deus ex Machina it. Really, as long as the -player- is involved and wants to run a character who is adventuring, the reason the character adventures is just fluff. But without the player being involved, no game happens.
Actually... The search for treasure/ Fortune and Glory/ etc... Really IS one of the major reasons for adventuring.
Ahhhhh... I see the confusion. I'm talking about 'adventuring' from the characters perspective, your talking about 'playing' from the PLAYERs perspective. That's where we butted heads.
I have REMARKABLY less fun when my character just tags along for no definable reason. If 'he' doesn't have any goals or dreams then it's just a page full of stats to me.
So... yeah, I'm one of the players who does the 4... to 10 page backstories for my characters. If my guy is wandering around the jungle.. or being talked into killing a dragon... There HAS to be an 'in character' reason for him to do so.
Wealth... riches... the chance to become a king... These all qualify. As a player, I like to think that SOME of my plans for the character ARE possible. WBL strictly enforced tells me that whatever payday my rogue is expecting... Won't be what he's expecting.
I prefer the excitement of NOT knowing what's waiting around the corner or in the chest at the end of the tunnel.