A spell going into the wizard's book from any source other then his free ones should be priced at the same value of the scroll for that spell at any level.Actually, the game is not at all clear on whether the cost of the spell is calculated from the price as a scroll or calculated from the price for viewing rights.
Why is that Aelryinth? Why should they be priced as scrolls? Is there a rule that says so somewhere that I missed? Or is it just your opinion, and if so, why is it?
I didn't go back very far in the thread so I may have missed something. Why would a wizard's two free spells each level count against his WBL. They are free therefore their value is, by default, zero.Scroll back and you'll see
I have now taken the time to scroll back and I am wondering even more why the wizard's free spells are being counted against his WBL. These spells are class features just like a fighter's feats or a cleric's spells. In fact, a cleric's spells are not counted against his WBL so why would a wizards? Anything beyond the 2 spells per level should be but not the freebies.
Also, why would the character's initial spellbook count against his WBL? He starts play with one. Once he has more than 100 pages to fill, the second book should count. His initial book is part of what he begins play with. If he never gets any spells beyond his freebies (64 total assuming he starts with a 15 Intelligence), he will never need a second spellbook unless it's to replace the one he started with. Makes perfect sense to charge him for anything beyond what his class grants him.
(since the rules specify those spells are free).The rule book specifies that the -acquisition- of those spells is free. It does not state that those spells don't count against WBL.
Meh ok I can see that point, and honestly it's still a small enough amount (for those spells) that I don't really see a point in worrying it too much.
I know you didn't scroll back because these questions were answered already. I hate to repeat myself.
I did scroll back and the last post you made before mine is still assuming that the free spells count against WBL. You are still assuming that the starting spellbook counts against WBL. So no, my questions have not been answered. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you are saying. It seems you are saying that the wizard's free spells and starting spellbook are counted against his WBL.
I know you didn't scroll back because these questions were answered already. I hate to repeat myself.
I've read this thread from the beginning and I still don't get this reasoning.
Why is that Aelryinth? Why should they be priced as scrolls? Is there a rule that says so somewhere that I missed? Or is it just your opinion, and if so, why is it?A spell going into the wizard's book from any source other then his free ones should be priced at the same value of the scroll for that spell at any level.Actually, the game is not at all clear on whether the cost of the spell is calculated from the price as a scroll or calculated from the price for viewing rights.
Let's give a basic example.
The party discovers a scroll of Permanency.
It has no use to anyone in the party but the wizard, who naturally wants to transcribe it.
The fighter says "No, use it to give me Permanent Detect Invisibility!"
The theif says, "Sell it. Or I'll UMD it for Block, there." After all, the xp cost is paid...it's worth a lot of money if they sell it.
The wizard bites his tongue. If he wants to acquire the spell otherwise, he'll be paying for the cost of a scroll (getting a spell for less then the cost of a scroll is the DM handing the wizard gold). this isn't expending the scroll...it is selling something valuable for what it is worth, contributing to everyone's WBL. to be fair, if he wants the scroll, the wizard should give up something equally valuable in exchange, i.e. more gold to the rest of the party to get what they want...or he should go buy his own damn spell.
Therefore, the value of any spell acquired is the value it would sell for on the open market, regardless of whether the wizard has the spell or not. The fact the scroll has the magic in it is balanced against the fact the spell book is reusable.
Furthermore, I believe you can 'burn' a spell by casting it out of your spellbook, essentially making it a collection of wizard-specific scrolls.
If the wizard can get spells cheaper then via scrolls, then he should not be even able to transcribe a scroll to his books...it makes no sense. Since he can, the value of a spell is the value it would sell for, i.e. the cost to get someone to make a copy for you and sell it to you, which would bascially be a scroll.
==Aelryinth
"Spells copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll" in bold and, further, says, "In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbook."
That's a terrible example if you wish to illustrate your point.
If a scroll is found, who is doing the charging?
The RIAA of course."Spells copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll" in bold and, further, says, "In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbook."That's a terrible example if you wish to illustrate your point.
If a scroll is found, who is doing the charging?
You leave them out of it.
They produce artists!
atm..
I've read this thread from the beginning and I still don't get this reasoning.As I've pointed out before, the WBL makes no distinction in how characters get their gear.
why would the character's initial spellbook count against his WBL? He starts play with one
Perhaps I am failing to understand the meaning of the word "free." Perhaps I am failing to understand what class features are.
I think you're grasping at straws to hold on to a point that is completely meaningless. Does a druid's animal companion cost him his WBL? Does a paladin's mount count against his WBL? What if he instead infuses his weapon, does that all of sudden change his WBL?
Furthermore, I believe you can 'burn' a spell by casting it out of your spellbook, essentially making it a collection of wizard-specific scrolls.
This is not supported by the rules.
This is not supported by the rules.
I'm staying mostly out of this discussion, but I have to say that it amazes me that a rule from the 1st edition Unearthed Arcana to this day so often rears its head a something people cite is amazing. I'm not saying this as a slight to anyone, its just that was the last place I know of that actually allowed that to be done.
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This only matters if you make character above first level right? "In game" I'm sure there are no WBL police who come and take your stuff if it exceeds some certain value of gear. Even then I would be surprised at the nature of an individual who would complain that the Wizard by having a spell book, so they could do what the Wizard class is meant to do, was somehow detracting from my fun as say a Ranger.
Yes I've read this entire thread, I understand what parties are saying, I'm just having difficulty seeing this topic beyond anything other than academic.
Does someone have an example where this has ruined or destroyed someone's fun/game?
Cheers,
S.
Perhaps I am failing to understand the meaning of the word "free." Perhaps I am failing to understand what class features are.
Perhaps you are.
It's important to note that there are two meanings of the word "free" in this context. One of them is how the gear was acquired. For example, a Rogue might steal something or a Bard might talk somebody into giving him something or a Wizard might research a couple of spells for free between levels. The other meaning of the word "free" in this context has to do with counting a character's personal wealth at any particular point in time.
It's a bit like taxes. If I give you a gift of a million dollars, that gift is given to you for free. But it still makes you a millionaire and, so, still counts as part of your total wealth.
Class features should never, at all, under any circumstance whatsoever, count against WBL. It defies logic and most likely goes against the rules as intended. In fact, on page 400 of the Core Book, the WBL table is described as: "Table 12–4 lists the amount of treasure each PC is
expected to have at a specific level." That clearly means that it is referring to monetary and magical rewards the characters find as part of their adventure not class features.
The fact that spells count against a Wizard's WBL becomes important when people start talking about how a Wizard can have every spell in the book.
I realize, we've been over this before in the alpha/beta. I even posted up the total costs for owning all spells before. If you do it the expensive way it eats up about 1/4 of the wealth a wizard has.
If you do it the cheap way it becomes much less of course.
I'm not going to argue RAI with you. "RAI" is just another way of saying "house rules" and I have no interest in arguing with you over what your house rules should be. But RAW is quite clear. Spellbooks are gear and, so, count against WBL.
RAI is not houserules. A houserule would be a change to the rules. A wizard having a free spellbook is a class feature. Honestly, do you charge the paladin 72,000 gold for his bonded weapon? Do you charge the druid 300 gold for his combat trained heavy horse? The rules don't say that they shouldn't be considered part of WBL for those class features. Why charge the wizard for his? WBL is for treasure. That is explicitly mentioned. It does not say that WBL is to include class features.
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I'm not going to argue RAI with you. "RAI" is just another way of saying "house rules" and I have no interest in arguing with you over what your house rules should be. But RAW is quite clear. Spellbooks are gear and, so, count against WBL.RAI is not houserules. A houserule would be a change to the rules. A wizard having a free spellbook is a class feature. Honestly, do you charge the paladin 72,000 gold for his bonded weapon? Do you charge the druid 300 gold for his combat trained heavy horse? The rules don't say that they shouldn't be considered part of WBL for those class features. Why charge the wizard for his? WBL is for treasure. That is explicitly mentioned. It does not say that WBL is to include class features.
I don't think you two are discussing the same thing at this point. And I'm not sure either of you disagree about either of the two separate points you seem to be discussion.
The Wizard learns the spells that they learn each level for free, and those are in his spellbook at no additional cost.
However, if the party finds a scroll or a spellbook, that object has value as an item that could be sold, with the loot divided by everyone in the party. If the wizard keeps said things, that should be counted toward his wealth.
Or am I also missing something.
That's exactly correct. However, the rules are inconsistent on the value of a spell being copied vs a spell found on scroll. They should be the same value.
==Aelryinth
That's exactly correct. However, the rules are inconsistent on the value of a spell being copied vs a spell found on scroll. They should be the same value.
==Aelryinth
Method doesn't matter.
Only what you have does.
Once the scroll is gone and the spell is in your book the only thing that matters is the cost of the spell in the book as far as WBL goes.
So it doesn't matter if you only used scrolls or if you only borrowed other books -- the cost of your spellbook remains the same regardless since the resource (scroll or borrowed book) is gone once you copy over (either because the scroll is used up or because the wizard doesn't let you see his book anymore).
The cost of the spell book is the price of the book plus the cost of copying the spells into it -- nothing more (including the price of access to the spell to copy it) and nothing less.
untrue. You might have to replace the book. And you have to stay consistent. If the only way you get a delayed blast fireball is to buy it and put it in your book, you don't get 3k 'free' WBL by suddenly revaluing it down and exclaiming that you get more money because it's not worth what you paid for it.
By your example, you could blow 300k on the entire spell library, get every spell in the core rulebooks off scrolls, and then complain that you should get another 240k back because your spells are only worth 60k once they are in the spellbook.
Sorry, that is NOT consistent.
==Aelryinth
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That's exactly correct. However, the rules are inconsistent on the value of a spell being copied vs a spell found on scroll. They should be the same value.
==Aelryinth
Method doesn't matter.
Only what you have does.
Once the scroll is gone and the spell is in your book the only thing that matters is the cost of the spell in the book as far as WBL goes.
So it doesn't matter if you only used scrolls or if you only borrowed other books -- the cost of your spellbook remains the same regardless since the resource (scroll or borrowed book) is gone once you copy over (either because the scroll is used up or because the wizard doesn't let you see his book anymore).
The cost of the spell book is the price of the book plus the cost of copying the spells into it -- nothing more (including the price of access to the spell to copy it) and nothing less.
Plus half of the cost of copying the spells into the book, as that is the price Wizard's usually charge according to page 219. Higher for rare spells, which your DM can define as needed I suppose...how many wizards above 12th level are running around to share those spells above 7th level I wonder...again DM discretion I suppose...
Do you have a back up Spell book? And if so are you counting the costs of adding all of the spells to said back-up spell book. Including all your free ones, if you go by RAW. I mean, I guess you could be one of those one spell books wizards. Man would I have fun with that as a DM...
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This only matters if you make character above first level right? "In game" I'm sure there are no WBL police who come and take your stuff if it exceeds some certain value of gear.
I would agree with you. However, it seems lots of people in this thread watch the WBL like a hawk. I guess if they get too much treasure then random rogues steal their stuff in the middle of the night. But not all of it...only the amount that they are over the WBL by. If they're under, I suppose they randomly find a treasure chest sitting in the middle of the road.
Kinda makes adventuring rather boring, don't it? You know you won't actually find any treasure until you level up. Well, you might find some, but if you take it some of your gear might disappear. :P
Plus half of the cost of copying the spells into the book, as that is the price Wizard's usually charge according to page 219.
Um No.
That is -- again -- method -- not the price of the book.
Spellbooks are specific -- the price of the book plus the price of the spells scribed in it.
Again:
The method of gaining those spells don't count against you -- only the spell book -- if you buy a hundred scrolls and use them then they no longer count against you -- no matter how you use them: In combat, lost, or used to scribe into the spellbook.
The cost of the spell book is the cost that sticks with your WBL unless you buy extra scrolls -- then if you use those extra scrolls (either scribing a back up book or in combat/whatever) then those scrolls no longer count and no longer matter.
It is honestly that simple.
Long -- when you create a spell book for an NPC do you count the method of how he got the spellbook in his wealth? No. Why? Because it doesn't matter. He has a spellbook -- the book is worth (by RAW) the amount the book cost plus the price of the spells scribed into it --
It does NOT cost the price of the scrolls -- it does NOT cost the price to look at another wizard's spell book -- it only costs the price of the book plus the spells in it.
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Plus half of the cost of copying the spells into the book, as that is the price Wizard's usually charge according to page 219.Um No.
That is -- again -- method -- not the price of the book.
Spellbooks are specific -- the price of the book plus the price of the spells scribed in it.
Again:
The method of gaining those spells don't count against you -- only the spell book -- if you buy a hundred scrolls and use them then they no longer count against you -- no matter how you use them: In combat, lost, or used to scribe into the spellbook.
The cost of the spell book is the cost that sticks with your WBL unless you buy extra scrolls -- then if you use those extra scrolls (either scribing a back up book or in combat/whatever) then those scrolls no longer count and no longer matter.
It is honestly that simple.
Long -- when you create a spell book for an NPC do you count the method of how he got the spellbook in his wealth? No. Why? Because it doesn't matter. He has a spellbook -- the book is worth (by RAW) the amount the book cost plus the price of the spells scribed into it --
It does NOT cost the price of the scrolls -- it does NOT cost the price to look at another wizard's spell book -- it only costs the price of the book plus the spells in it.
Bold doesn't make you right.
You can have the spells you get each level in your spellbook for free. (pg 219)
That is it. Every other spell costs, at minimum, the price to write it in, plus half the price to write it in.
You can only learn the spells you are able to learn by class. All other spells have to come from a source. A source= Not free.
This only matters if you make character above first level right? "In game" I'm sure there are no WBL police who come and take your stuff if it exceeds some certain value of gear.I would agree with you. However, it seems lots of people in this thread watch the WBL like a hawk. I guess if they get too much treasure then random rogues steal their stuff in the middle of the night. But not all of it...only the amount that they are over the WBL by. If they're under, I suppose they randomly find a treasure chest sitting in the middle of the road.
Kinda makes adventuring rather boring, don't it? You know you won't actually find any treasure until you level up. Well, you might find some, but if you take it some of your gear might disappear. :P
Actually alot of GM's who got started with 3, 3.5, or 4 take to watching WBL like a hawk. Going so far as to do audits every month or so and forcing the players to 'lose' the excess. From most of the comments I'm seeing here the vast majority of GM's here view it the same way.
Personally I'm an old 2nd edition GM so I find the very concept of WBL charts abhorrent almost to the point that I tend to view anyone swearing by them as idiots. I find wealth to be a function of the setting not of the base rules. I'll get crucified for that statement of course, because I'm not playing in their style, but I don't see a reason why anyone, no matter what their level, is going to automatically have the amount of cash the WBL charts show.
Than again I allow players to open businesses, fund new trade routes, start adventurer guilds, and generally grow their money if they think to do so.
WBL is a guideline, and you have different guidelines. You are balancing more intuitively. I bet you still keep a keen eye on relative power of magic items and what people own.
WBL is there to redress imbalances in power. The level 6 paladin shouldn't have a holy avenger, or a vorpal sword. These are both things that could easily happen in 1E, 'luck'. In the real world, someone powerful would come down and take the nice toys for themselves, and leave the level 6 his hand-me-downs.
It's coming up on this thread because waaaaay too many wizards proclaim their uberness, and don't look at the cost of their spellbook and its place in WBL. A decent spellbook with all those spells they want could easily run over 100k, which puts a huge crimp in WBL, and the full spell list would be over 300k...the cost of a fighter's armor and sword at level 20.
It's balance, and a tool for finding it. That's all.
==Aelryinth
Bold doesn't make you right.
You can have the spells you get each level in your spellbook for free. (pg 219)
That is it. Every other spell costs, at minimum, the price to write it in, plus half the price to write it in.
You can only learn the spells you are able to learn by class. All other spells have to come from a source. A source= Not free.
You are right -- and so am I.
You are again confusing Method of obtainment with cost against WBL.
These are not the same thing.
You must pay the cost to get the extra spells (in whatever method you use -- borrowing it from another wizard or getting a scroll) -- however once it is in your book then it no longer costs extra money -- the book has a fixed price which is counted against your WBL.
We know the price of a spellbook of with a given set of spells in it -- that price is defined by the rules.
Now adding spells costs extra -- but just like any other one shot service or item once used that cost goes away and no longer counts against your wealth by level.
Comparables:
A fighter using a potion -- once the potion is gone it no longer counts against the fighter's wealth by level -- the benefit is gone.
A Rogue paying for a spell to be cast at the temple. He has to pay for the spell -- but afterwards it doesn't count against his wealth by level because the service ends and is gone.
Wealth by level is the gear and resources you have available to use while adventuring.
Once those resources are used up/unavailable/nonconductive to adventuring they don't count against you. The wizard didn't let you keep his book -- simply look at it -- once you can no longer look at his book then the benefit is gone and you no longer pay for it in your wealth by level. Same with the scroll, potion, spent wand, etc.
WBL is a guideline, and you have different guidelines. You are balancing more intuitively. I bet you still keep a keen eye on relative power of magic items and what people own.
WBL is there to redress imbalances in power. The level 6 paladin shouldn't have a holy avenger, or a vorpal sword. These are both things that could easily happen in 1E, 'luck'. In the real world, someone powerful would come down and take the nice toys for themselves, and leave the level 6 his hand-me-downs.
It's coming up on this thread because waaaaay too many wizards proclaim their uberness, and don't look at the cost of their spellbook and its place in WBL. A decent spellbook with all those spells they want could easily run over 100k, which puts a huge crimp in WBL, and the full spell list would be over 300k...the cost of a fighter's armor and sword at level 20.
It's balance, and a tool for finding it. That's all.
==Aelryinth
General Agreement.
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Bold doesn't make you right.
You can have the spells you get each level in your spellbook for free. (pg 219)
That is it. Every other spell costs, at minimum, the price to write it in, plus half the price to write it in.
You can only learn the spells you are able to learn by class. All other spells have to come from a source. A source= Not free.
You are right -- and so am I.
You are again confusing Method of obtainment with cost against WBL.
These are not the same thing.
You must pay the cost to get the extra spells (in whatever method you use -- borrowing it from another wizard or getting a scroll) -- however once it is in your book then it no longer costs extra money -- the book has a fixed price which is counted against your WBL.
We know the price of a spellbook of with a given set of spells in it -- that price is defined by the rules.
Now adding spells costs extra -- but just like any other one shot service or item once used that cost goes away and no longer counts against your wealth by level.
Comparables:
A fighter using a potion -- once the potion is gone it no longer counts against the fighter's wealth by level -- the benefit is gone.
A Rogue paying for a spell to be cast at the temple. He has to pay for the spell -- but afterwards it doesn't count against his wealth by level because the service ends and is gone.
Wealth by level is the gear and resources you have available to use while adventuring.
Once those resources are used up/unavailable/nonconductive to adventuring they don't count against you. The wizard didn't let you keep his book -- simply look at it -- once you can no longer look at his book then the benefit is gone and you no longer pay for it in your wealth by level. Same with the scroll, potion, spent wand, etc.
Potion is a good example. Good point, I back down.
Like CR, WBL is training wheels for new DMs.
No, really, that's exactly what it is. Back on the old TSR boards on AOL, I was a participant in a thread with Skip Williams on the issues of experience and monsters and treasure, talking forward about a future AD&D 3rd edition. The major consensus on that thread was that it took time for a DM to figure out how to balance encounters and treasure levels and such, and so the game needed guidelines so new DMs could avoid the pitfalls until his own feel for the game developed. We assumed, universally, that experienced DMs would eventually take over their own games and throw out the guidelines.
Lo, a few years later, we get a new edition co-authored by Skip Williams, and it has exactly that sort of guidance built in. Perfect! We've got a tool that allows someone to pick up the game and DM it reasonably from the word go!
. . . And then it turns out that people see these guidelines as a permanent fixture of the game. Instead of taking off the training wheels when they're ready to go on dirt paths and such, they complain that the wheels aren't designed for off-roading. And when a DM does take the wheels off, we get players complaining that the DM isn't using them. Gaaaah!
CR and WBL are so that a new DM doesn't wind up accidentally making TPK or Monty Haul dungeons. If they accomplish that much, they've done their entire job.
The above poster, in summary is quite right; WBL is for setting up NPCs and such.
Consider this, what PC caster would ever sell his spellbook? Don't even try to rationalize it, you all know it wouldn't happen. A spellbook is not treasure, unless it's been captured from an opponent.
In short - The Wizard's to spells per level are free, the captured book not so much.
Lillith - not saying you're wrong to play the you want, but the rules don't support you.
. . . And then it turns out that people see these guidelines as a permanent fixture of the game. Instead of taking off the training wheels when they're ready to go on dirt paths and such, they complain that the wheels aren't designed for off-roading. And when a DM does take the wheels off, we get players complaining that the DM isn't using them. Gaaaah!
CR and WBL are so that a new DM doesn't wind up accidentally making TPK or Monty Haul dungeons. If they accomplish that much, they've done their entire job.
The problem is so many GM that don't use them -- then completely screw up the game by not taking into account the very guidelines the game is meant to use -- at which point either the players get hosed or hose everything -- the forums here have many threads where the GM left the reservation so to speak and then ruined their game in the process.
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The problem is so many GM that don't use them -- then completely screw up the game by not taking into account the very guidelines the game is meant to use -- at which point either the players get hosed or hose everything -- the forums here have many threads where the GM left the reservation so to speak and then ruined their game in the process.
I think as long as a balance between the player's power level and the power level of the challenges presented to them, what that power level is shouldn't really matter. If the players and DM agree that it would be cool to deck them out in +6 longswords and the like in their very first adventure, that's fine. But they should expect to then face challenges that far exceed that of a regular 1st level party.
Also, it definately should NOT apply to certain NPCs. A king becomes a king by virtue of his birth, not because he's a X-th level character. In fact, one of the thing that kind of annoys me in most RPG products is that they feel the need to make leaders high (or at least mid-) level. A prince who's been spoiled his whole life, gotten his every desire fulfilled by his hordes of servants, etc shouldn't suddenly gain 15 levels of some class when his daddy dies.
i have a great idea for removing some of the magic item dependancy from low magic campaigns
this particular variant requires the removal of stat boosting items of any kind (including but not limited to both enhancement and inherent) and the wish and miracle spells (including thier limited versions) or tome of X. and a halving of wealth by level
Give what basically amounts to the advanced creature simple template upon reaching 5 class levels, give this bonus again at 15 class levels and every 10 class levels after (25,35, etc). racial hit dice do not count for this purpose nor does racial level adjustment. this adjustment doesn't count against a pc's total effective level.
this idea removes the need for stat boosters, makes it easier to keep pcs CR appropriate with half the standard wealth and helps multiple attribute dependant characters with the same efficiency it helps a single attribute dependant character due to affecting all 6 attributes equally. i beleive it works best in halved wealth by level 25 point buy campaigns.
if you use this variant, expect your pcs to desire to wear progressively lighter armor over time. lighter armor comes with the advantages of higher dexterity limits, lower check penalties, lower spell failure, lighter weight, progressively increasing concealability and increased loot capacity.
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Also, it definately should NOT apply to certain NPCs. A king becomes a king by virtue of his birth, not because he's a X-th level character. In fact, one of the thing that kind of annoys me in most RPG products is that they feel the need to make leaders high (or at least mid-) level. A prince who's been spoiled his whole life, gotten his every desire fulfilled by his hordes of servants, etc shouldn't suddenly gain 15 levels of some class when his daddy dies.
This was discussed well in the 2e DMG, but seems that to be a Noble now you need levels in , er, Noble.
You are right, that is a tad silly.
I think as long as a balance between the player's power level and the power level of the challenges presented to them, what that power level is shouldn't really matter. If the players and DM agree that it would be cool to deck them out in +6 longswords and the like in their very first adventure, that's fine. But they should expect to then face challenges that far exceed that of a regular 1st level party.
Also, it definately should NOT apply to certain NPCs. A king becomes a king by virtue of his birth, not because he's a X-th level character. In fact, one of the thing that kind of annoys me in most RPG products is that they feel the need to make leaders high (or at least mid-) level. A prince who's been spoiled his whole life, gotten his every desire fulfilled by his hordes of servants, etc shouldn't suddenly gain 15 levels of some class when his daddy dies.
Ok with your first paragraph we have general agreement -- the problem is when the GM doesn't let the players know he's going to deviant from the norm, or when he can't keep the challenges matched to the PC -- that's not something we can solve or really discuss here though because of its dependence on the exact details at the table at the time.
WBL means what the character has for adventuring -- this doesn't include his house, his kindom, his merchant ship and the like in general. Please note that the Kingmaker AP shows my point with this -- you have several leaders that have lots of stuff -- but their "adventure" gear matches their level.
Now in some cases it shouldn't -- a king or spoiled prince of a rich kingdom will probably have more than what his level would suggest -- and that's fine, the GM should always have some room to adjust things as needed for specific cases (in statistics they are known as "outliers") but in general the guidelines are fine for most things.
The problem is so many GM that don't use them -- then completely screw up the game by not taking into account the very guidelines the game is meant to use -- at which point either the players get hosed or hose everything -- the forums here have many threads where the GM left the reservation so to speak and then ruined their game in the process.I think as long as a balance between the player's power level and the power level of the challenges presented to them, what that power level is shouldn't really matter. If the players and DM agree that it would be cool to deck them out in +6 longswords and the like in their very first adventure, that's fine. But they should expect to then face challenges that far exceed that of a regular 1st level party.
Also, it definately should NOT apply to certain NPCs. A king becomes a king by virtue of his birth, not because he's a X-th level character. In fact, one of the thing that kind of annoys me in most RPG products is that they feel the need to make leaders high (or at least mid-) level. A prince who's been spoiled his whole life, gotten his every desire fulfilled by his hordes of servants, etc shouldn't suddenly gain 15 levels of some class when his daddy dies.
the counterpoint is that the low level king isn't going to remain king long...plus all his encounters are high level encounters, meaning he's going to level like a fiend, and he's got access to all the best trainers.
Given how fast PC's can level, and the xp you can earn from just being in royal courts and winning skill checks vs NPC's, I expect new kings are going to level fast or wind up being nobodies in their own kingdoms...if their high level little brothers don't tromp up and take away their crowns.
Low level guys can't hold a kingdom in a magical universe. They have neither the skills nor the power. If there's a low level king, he's a puppet.
---Aelryinth
It also depends on the "average" level of the setting too. Galorian has several NPCs that are in the 6~10 range -- probably the range a king should be in -- but not so many that are over that.
Also because they are NPCs they can have levels in *gasp* NPC classes like aristocrat or expert possibly even warrior or adept. Such classes don't provide much power -- but do provide the save throws, and skill ranks needed to be a "high end" ruler/expert/merchant/sage/whatever.
As such you can easily have NPCs that are "of level" without being "of power" -- thus needing someone who is a bit more (aka heroes/adventurers) to take care of the odd stuff that isn't within their abilities.
I would actually really suggest using the NPC classes more -- after all that's who they are there for.
