Below are the official clarifications of the issues at hand in this discussion. The following supersedes any previous clarifications by Joshua J. Frost, Mark, or me. These will be included in future versions of the organized play rules documentation including the online FAQ.
With regard to the Core Assumption:
Pathfinder Society Organized Play assumes that every player has access to the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and a familiarity with Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secrets, A Guide to the Pathfinder Society, and that every Game Master has access to the above plus the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary. When designing and developing scenarios, we assume that references to rules or flavor in these books needn't be explained. Lack of access to these materials may prevent players or GMs from being able to participate in the campaign. All relevant content from both the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and Pathfinder RPG Bestiary may be found for free on the Pathfinder Reference Document at http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/.
With regard to use of non-core material as outlined in Chapter 13:
In order to use additional resources for your character, you must bring a physical copy of the book with you or printouts of the appropriate pages detailing cost (if any) and explanations for each feat, item, spell, prestige class, and so on that you use. One need not prove ownership of said material but they must be from a legally obtained PDF or book printed by Paizo Publishing; content reproduced in other sources under the Open Gaming License (such as an online reference document or a homemade omnibus) is not legal with regard to use in sanctioned Pathfinder Society play. Since the core assumption for Pathfinder Society Organized Play is the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secrets, and the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, we cannot assume that every Game Master will have the products listed in Chapter 13 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play. As such, it is each player's responsibility to bring to the game any necessary rules for running his or her character so that GMs may properly adjudicate the game during play.
Hyrum.
Hey Hyrum, as someone asked Josh this months ago, you should probably include in there that anyone bringing a legal pdf, in digital form and not printed out, must also have a means to display that book to show the GM. In other words, a flash drive containing your pdf's is not enough, you also have to have the proper piece of electronics with you to display and read the books, your own laptop, tablet pc, i-pad, etc.
Director of Brand Strategy
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Hey Hyrum, as someone asked Josh this months ago, you should probably include in there that anyone bringing a legal pdf, in digital form and not printed out, must also have a means to display that book to show the GM. In other words, a flash drive containing your pdf's is not enough, you also have to have the proper piece of electronics with you to display and read the books, your own laptop, tablet pc, i-pad, etc.
The clarification is fairly straightforward in its intent. One needs a copy of the material so a GM can use it. If a GM can not reference the material at the table, you can't use that rules element. I don't think we need to overcomplicate an already robust rules system by detailing every fringe case in which someone might try to skirt the rule in an official FAQ or rules clarification; that's why the current Guide to Pathfinder Society is almost 40 pages. If you want to use that feat on your flash drive, bring what you need to view it or risk not being able to use it.
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I would love a copy of SoS, but it isn't going to happen this year.Don't be too sure. ;)Well that was a sure fire way to blow my argument out of the water. :)
Thank You.
You're welcome...I spent most of 2003 unemployed -- it sucks. Besides, if I were truly benevolent, I would have just bought it and stayed quiet. :)
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I would love a copy of SoS, but it isn't going to happen this year.Don't be too sure. ;)Well that was a sure fire way to blow my argument out of the water. :)
Thank You.
heh heh, I figured that someone would take care that after what you posted. :)
Also, just a little over 2 months till Mark's drunken New Year's post, remember, you saw the foreshadowing here first!!
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The clarification is fairly straightforward in its intent. One needs a copy of the material so a GM can use it. If a GM can not reference the material at the table, you can't use that rules element. I don't think we need to overcomplicate an already robust rules system by detailing every fringe case in which someone might try to skirt the rule in an official FAQ or rules clarification; that's why the current Guide to Pathfinder Society is almost 40 pages. If you want to use that feat on your flash drive, bring what you need to view it or risk not being able to use it.
Mark or Hyrum, Is it ok as a GM to bring all the material with me so the players don't have to, as long as they are aware that if they play some where else they need to get it themselves? I always bring everything on my iPad, and I own all the PDFs, subscription has been my friend ;).
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Mark or Hyrum, Is it ok as a GM to bring all the material with me so the players don't have to, as long as they are aware that if they play some where else they need to get it themselves? I always bring everything on my iPad, and I own all the PDFs, subscription has been my friend ;).
How is this question not covered by the above clarifications?
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Mark or Hyrum, Is it ok as a GM to bring all the material with me so the players don't have to, as long as they are aware that if they play some where else they need to get it themselves? I always bring everything on my iPad, and I own all the PDFs, subscription has been my friend ;).How is this question not covered by the above clarifications?
Mark, If I asked it to me it is not clarified. This is why, and it is the same reason why I asked the same question to Josh a year or 2 back and started this whole thing of clarifying the rule.
we cannot assume that every Game Master will have the products listed in Chapter 13 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play. As such, it is each player's responsibility to bring to the game any necessary rules for running his or her character so that GMs may properly adjudicate the game during play.
The whole rule is based on the assumption that GMs will not have all the products in CH 13 with them, but in my group that assumption is false since I do, so the players should be ok with just using the books I bring at my games. The problem though is when you get to the part that it is Each players responsibility to bring to the game the necessary rules, but since the initial assumption is false do they still have that responsibility?
I know this thinking process puts a lot more complication into the rule then was meant to be, but that is the way many of my players think, and myself. I don't want to tell my players that they have to buy a book they don't need if they can just use mine since the proof of ownership is gone, especially those that plan to never play anywhere else but in my games.
Edit: Since the intent of the rule is to make sure that the GM can reference the rule, I will assume that me having all the PDFs with me on my iPad fulfills that intent. Though I would suggest you make the intent more clearer in the above post by adding that it is each players responsibility to make sure the necessary rules are available at the game, instead of it is each player responsibility to bring the rules to the game.
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They have to trust that we as GMs and organizers are going to use good judgment
Coming from the guy who decided to drive 12 hours through the night to Atlanta. The same guy who agreed to basically represent Paizo at Origins and nearly blew a fuse in his brain. The same guy who also thought it was a good idea to sleep two-to-a-bed at Paizo Con...
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Hey Hyrum, as someone asked Josh this months ago, you should probably include in there that anyone bringing a legal pdf, in digital form and not printed out, must also have a means to display that book to show the GM. In other words, a flash drive containing your pdf's is not enough, you also have to have the proper piece of electronics with you to display and read the books, your own laptop, tablet pc, i-pad, etc.The clarification is fairly straightforward in its intent. One needs a copy of the material so a GM can use it. If a GM can not reference the material at the table, you can't use that rules element. I don't think we need to overcomplicate an already robust rules system by detailing every fringe case in which someone might try to skirt the rule in an official FAQ or rules clarification; that's why the current Guide to Pathfinder Society is almost 40 pages. If you want to use that feat on your flash drive, bring what you need to view it or risk not being able to use it.
If common sense was only common (Taldane)..
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The same guy who also thought it was a good idea to sleep two-to-a-bed at Paizo Con...
Eeek!!! that is a terrible idea!!! ;)
How is that fuse?
Luckily Doug's fuses are 100W industrial grade. I would imagine that he was pulling a constant 50W each all convention, with certain spikes nearing 100W. If one had blown, we would have been screwed since takes 2-3 weeks to get them in (special order only of course).
Luckily for me, I wasn't the second in the bed. And really Doug was only 1/2 in the bed. The other half was wedged in that crack between the wall and bed. I have pictures. :D
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They have to trust that we as GMs and organizers are going to use good judgmentComing from the guy who decided to drive 12 hours through the night to Atlanta. The same guy who agreed to basically represent Paizo at Origins and nearly blew a fuse in his brain. The same guy who also thought it was a good idea to sleep two-to-a-bed at Paizo Con...
so the 8sih hours to Gamicon will be a breeze then yayyyyyyyy
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Director of Brand Strategy
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The whole rule is based on the assumption that GMs will not have all the products in CH 13 with them, but in my group that assumption is false since I do, so the players should be ok with just using the books I bring at my games. The problem though is when you get to the part that it is Each players responsibility to bring to the game the necessary rules, but since the initial assumption is false do they still have that responsibility?
The important thing is that every rule a GM needs to run the game is present at the table. If you choose to take on this responsibility on your players' behalf, that's up to you. But should any of those players ever play under a different GM or if your iPad is stolen or breaks or whatever, it remains their responsibility to provide the official rules content for their character if they wish to use those abilities or equipment. I doubt the issue would ever come up, however, since they are unlikely to have a feat from Splatbooks of Golarion Revisited if they don't have regular access to the book with which to create their character.
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The important thing is that every rule a GM needs to run the game is present at the table. If you choose to take on this responsibility on your players' behalf, that's up to you. But should any of those players ever play under a different GM or if your iPad is stolen or breaks or whatever, it remains their responsibility to provide the official rules content for their character if they wish to use those abilities or equipment. I doubt the issue would ever come up, however, since they are unlikely to have a feat from Splatbooks of Golarion Revisited if they don't have regular access to the book with which to create their character.
Thanks mark, all my players will be aware that if they play at a different location that they need to make sure they have the rules with them through a legal source.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I doubt the issue would ever come up, however, since they are unlikely to have a feat from Splatbooks of Golarion Revisited if they don't have regular access to the book with which to create their character.
You'd be surprised, Mark. At Gen-Con, I had a half-dozen players who had printed pages from pfd20srd or Nethys' comprehensive website as documentation for spells or traits. As it turned out, I had the actual material with me at table, so they didn't have to do without, but that was accidental.
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Below are the official clarifications of the issues at hand in this discussion. The following supersedes any previous clarifications by Joshua J. Frost, Mark, or me. These will be included in future versions of the organized play rules documentation including the online FAQ.
With regard to the Core Assumption:
Pathfinder Society Organized Play assumes that every player has access to the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and a familiarity with Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secrets, A Guide to the Pathfinder Society, and that every Game Master has access to the above plus the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary. When designing and developing scenarios, we assume that references to rules or flavor in these books needn't be explained. Lack of access to these materials may prevent players or GMs from being able to participate in the campaign. All relevant content from both the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and Pathfinder RPG Bestiary may be found for free on the Pathfinder Reference Document at http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/.
With regard to use of non-core material as outlined in Chapter 13:
In order to use additional resources for your character, you must bring a physical copy of the book with you or printouts of the appropriate pages detailing cost (if any) and explanations for each feat, item, spell, prestige class, and so on that you use. One need not prove ownership of said material but they must be from a legally obtained PDF or book printed by Paizo Publishing; content reproduced in other sources under the Open Gaming License (such as an online reference document or a homemade omnibus) is not legal with regard to use in sanctioned Pathfinder...
"Raises hand"
One more question.....
I purchased Hero Lab and have been using that and have gotten people up here in Alaska to start using that as well.
I personally have a subscription to everything and have everything (except Swallowed Whole, and original Dungeon Flip Mat; and the Item Pack One Deck).
I just wouldn't be able to quote exactly what item came from what book since I use the Hero Lab software to create my character.
I am sure I'll eventually be able to quote what comes from what or even make an educated guess. Just not their yet on familiarity of the rules nor are the players up here that are participating in the Pathfinder Society.
As a side note I didn't know it was this "un-player friendly". I have played one game at Gencon and was psyched about it so started it up here in Alaska. I know some of the players I have up here wouldn't like being scrutinized like this if they were coming to a large convention like Gencon. I know they would take some but some of these posts are outright accusing. Of course I have yet to deal with players that "try" to cheat. I will always give the benefit of doubt that a person made an honest mistake.
Sean
(Little Concerned by the Tone some People are taking on this.)
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Mark or Hyrum, Is it ok as a GM to bring all the material with me so the players don't have to, as long as they are aware that if they play some where else they need to get it themselves? I always bring everything on my iPad, and I own all the PDFs, subscription has been my friend ;).
The clarification is fairly straightforward in its intent. One needs a copy of the material so a GM can use it. If a GM can not reference the material at the table, you can't use that rules element. I don't think we need to overcomplicate an already robust rules system by detailing every fringe case in which someone might try to skirt the rule in an official FAQ or rules clarification; that's why the current Guide to Pathfinder Society is almost 40 pages. If you want to use that feat on your flash drive, bring what you need to view it or risk not being able to use it.
+1
As of now that is what has been happening up here.
Of course I know two people who have went out and purchased all the core books and a few of the player companions.
Plus I am encouraging the store we are playing at to at least carry the Players Companions and maybe a rule book. I am not pushing the rule book to hard though.
Sean
SNIP
Just make sure you "turn on" the Show Powers and Feat Descriptions option and you'll be good.
Hyrum.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I know some of the players I have up here wouldn't like being scrutinized like this...
We're not conducting an inquisition. We're working to ensure that GMs who are unfamiliar with some feature that a player has taken from a product listed in Chapter 13 can see the official, unmodified wording of that feature. Since it's not reasonable to require every GM to own every product in Chapter 13, the onus is thus passed to the player that wants to use the feature.
As a player, can you provide that? If so, relax.
If not, you can't use it.
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...since they are unlikely to have a feat from Splatbooks of Golarion Revisited if they don't have regular access to the book...
I have began working under the assumption that Splatbooks of Golarion Revisited is a soon-to-be-announced future release from Paizo.
I will direct threads at James Jacobs periodically asking for updates on the status of this product.
That is all.
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Creative Director
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...since they are unlikely to have a feat from Splatbooks of Golarion Revisited if they don't have regular access to the book...I have began working under the assumption that Splatbooks of Golarion Revisited is a soon-to-be-announced future release from Paizo.
I will direct threads at James Jacobs periodically asking for updates on the status of this product.
That is all.
James Jacobs will then periodically respond to you in increasingly violent dinosaur-related methods. Fair warning! These teeth aren't for chewing leaves and berries!
Hey Hyrum, as someone asked Josh this months ago, you should probably include in there that anyone bringing a legal pdf, in digital form and not printed out, must also have a means to display that book to show the GM. In other words, a flash drive containing your pdf's is not enough, you also have to have the proper piece of electronics with you to display and read the books, your own laptop, tablet pc, i-pad, etc.The clarification is fairly straightforward in its intent. One needs a copy of the material so a GM can use it. If a GM can not reference the material at the table, you can't use that rules element. I don't think we need to overcomplicate an already robust rules system by detailing every fringe case in which someone might try to skirt the rule in an official FAQ or rules clarification; that's why the current Guide to Pathfinder Society is almost 40 pages. If you want to use that feat on your flash drive, bring what you need to view it or risk not being able to use it.
Mark and Hyrum,
I only mentioned it because if this wording from the new rule:
you must bring a physical copy of the book with you or printouts of the appropriate pages
I know from being around the forums that simply having the pdf counts, but the pdf itself is neither a physical copy nor printouts, so adding to the list bringing an appropriate viewing device for the pdf would be helpful.
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Actually it's not clear that you can display a pdf on your laptop for legal documentation from the post above. It says you have to have a copy of the book or printed out pages. Nowhere does it say that a displayed digital copy of the pdf is a valid means to show the rules. I really hope that you and Hyrum add this, because I run my characters completely off of legal pdfs on my netbook. (I have back problems and carrying a zillion books isn't good for that.) I have the books I need, watermarked with my name, in pdf format, and displayable for anyone to see on my netbook if requested. It would really upset me if I got told that wasn't a valid means of documentation at a convention because it wasn't listed as one in the post above. (and unfortunately I can see this kind of nitpicking occurring-easily).Hey Hyrum, as someone asked Josh this months ago, you should probably include in there that anyone bringing a legal pdf, in digital form and not printed out, must also have a means to display that book to show the GM. In other words, a flash drive containing your pdf's is not enough, you also have to have the proper piece of electronics with you to display and read the books, your own laptop, tablet pc, i-pad, etc.The clarification is fairly straightforward in its intent. One needs a copy of the material so a GM can use it. If a GM can not reference the material at the table, you can't use that rules element. I don't think we need to overcomplicate an already robust rules system by detailing every fringe case in which someone might try to skirt the rule in an official FAQ or rules clarification; that's why the current Guide to Pathfinder Society is almost 40 pages. If you want to use that feat on your flash drive, bring what you need to view it or risk not being able to use it.
Wow Terabithia,
Glad I don't have to deal with the nitpickers in your area!
Nate
NYC
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The point of bringing an official source of the material you are using for your character is so that every GM doesn't have to carry around every book Paizo publishes. This is not about proving ownership, it's about proving that you're using the official material correctly and so that the GM can review the wording in it's official form. That's it.
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(something reasonable)
Yes, yes. That is the way to go about it. Much more carrot, much less stick, and all very understandable. I'm so glad I've held off commenting prior to this, I knew flaming out wasn't going to help. I have, however, been very concerned with the direction things had been going, and the inklings of the inquisition coming were crawling up my spine. I think the VCs were just trying to carry out what they thought the intent was, but I was envisioning checkpoints at the doors of game stores and random table audits.
I think PFS is a great marketing drive for you guys; I want you to keep it as open and friendly as possible so it continues to serve that purpose. You've made your rules libre, and this makes the PFS game as open as possible while still serving the real purpose (of making sure the onus is on players to provide cites for Chapter 13 materials, so the GM doesn't have to own every supplement).
Thanks.
Digital copies are perfectly legal. :)
Hyrum.
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The point of bringing an official source of the material you are using for your character is so that every GM doesn't have to carry around every book Paizo publishes. This is not about proving ownership, it's about proving that you're using the official material correctly and so that the GM can review the wording in it's official form. That's it.
+1...this thread really has the feel of a heavy-handed rules-lawyering argument. I am glad that Hyrum jumped in and clarified everything, but did we really need all of this? I do not believe that anyone on these boards was about to punish a player because of the RAW. The intent is to merely have access to the original content. I don't care if that is a printed source, printed pdf, digital view, whatever or who's copy of the material is being used. It's just very disappointing that it seems there are GM's in our society that are willing to block a player's fun because of some rigid interpretation of a rule that has obvious RAI. As the saying goes, "Can't we all just get along" :-)
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+ 1 Thanks, Hyrum. :-)
Knowing how the RAW are sometimes used as weapons, I think you have clarified both RAW & RAI.
*snip*
... but I was envisioning checkpoints at the doors of game stores and random table audits.
I had a funny vision of showing up at a table, someone saying with a Chelaxin accent "I'm with the PFSS (Pathfinders Secret Service), your papers, please."
The entire table saying (in unison) "This isn't the table your looking for."
I might have to clarify this later but...
If your interpretation of RAW means less fun, then please for all that is holy, err on the side of fun.
(As long as you're not flagrantly breaking a rule that is.)
Hyrum.
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+1...this thread really has the feel of a heavy-handed rules-lawyering argument. I am glad that Hyrum jumped in and clarified everything, but did we really need all of this? I do not believe that anyone on these boards was about to punish a player because of the RAW. The intent is to merely have access to the original content. I don't care if that is a printed source, printed pdf, digital view, whatever or who's copy of the material is being used. It's just very disappointing that it seems there are GM's in our society that are willing to block a player's fun because of some rigid interpretation of a rule that has obvious RAI. As the saying goes, "Can't we all just get along" :-)
\soapbox
+1
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Here is the Issue though guys, one GM/Corrdinators RAI may not be another GM/Coordinators RAI. This is why the RAW has to be as clear as possible and not leave it up to RAI or problems can be run into.
As an example I know GMs that thought the Play play play rules meant they could break any rule they wanted because that is how they saw the RAI. Which lead to players breaking the Playing up rules and Replay rules which caused problems when those same players went to another group *mine*. Luckily we were able to work those issues out.
But it is much better that everyone follows the RAW then making up there own interpretations on what they think the RAW means.
I am not saying kick players out, there are always compromises that can be worked on within the rules, I am saying we should all follow those rules universally so those that travel to other groups don't run into problems.
No everyone is going to like every rule, but they are there for a reason.
Edit: Not only that, everyone playing by the RAW makes it so players don't run into surprises when the travel to other groups or Cons.
Edit: This was not aimed at Mark or Hyrum, you guys are doing good job in clearing things up.
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Here is the Issue though guys, one GM/Corrdinators RAI may not be another GM/Coordinators RAI. This is why the RAW has to be as clear as possible and not leave it up to RAI or problems can be run into.
There will ALWAYS be different understandings of rules no matter how they're written. Players and GMs alike need to understand and come to grips with that. Be respectful and have fun. If that's not possible, pack up and go home. It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.