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So let me first start of by saying that I love the People of the North player companion.It is full of flavor and delivers on crunch. Those who haven't bought it should.
My issue is with the Viking archetype. At first I was very excited about this archetype, thinking that the fighter got some loving. I then started looking at the numbers and comparing it to a normal Barbarian and base line fighter,and it looks to me to be a poor mans Barbarian, am I missing something?
Its a fighter who gets a very cool intimidate ability instead of bravery( big plus here). He looses armor training in favor of shield defense (+1 ac when using a shield 4th, 7th, 11th, 15th) and trades weapon training 1,2,3,4 for rage at - 3 level, and can replace fighter bonus feats with rage powers after level 6. He looses heavy armor prof, tower shield prof.
The only main fighter abilities he keeps are weapon master and armor mastery.
It does not state that he gets Mighty or greater rage.
The barbarian still gets fast movement and a better skill selection.
I guess trap sense and fearsome are a push, same with uncanny dodge and DR vs. shield defense. They are equal in armor weapon prof. Indomitable will and tireless rage are comparable to armor and weapon mastery.
access to rage and rage power are amazing but at a lover level and with the sacrifice to weapon and armor training, is it worth it? Compared to a barbarian by level 20 he looses 20hp and 40 skill points. Am I missing something? Why would someone not just play a barbarian?
The major difference is feat, which any class can use. And as far as greater rage goes, can you really snub +4 str and con?
I haven't read the archetype, but it sounds (despite the above) a little wishy-washy. Many, many, many prestige classes are.
The Barbarian gets only one less rage power than a fighter gets bonus feats( 10 vs. 11). The viking, which is an archetype not a prestige class, can potentially get 3 feats and 8 rage power or 11 bonus feats so that is a plus. I'm just not sure he stacks up to either the Barbarians mighty rage (+8 str, con, +6 will) or the fighters weapon training. I'm really looking to see if its worth it? Am i missing something? or is the viking just a weaker less skillful barbarian?
I am curious because while i love archetypes, their have been a lot of them that sound flavor full but lack in game use. Many can be justified because they fill a specific niche, or give access to a different ability while remaining somewhat on par with the normal class in numbers. A sad point is that many that lose to much, i find don't see the light of day at my groups table. I find more people taking a ninja or fighter over the pirate and just calling it that. I am hoping this is not the case with the Viking... cause its a Viking.
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I'm playing a Half-elf Ulfen with Shielded Fighter archetype in a Legacy of Fire campaign right now. He's a blast to play as a sword and board character. I went with half-elf to get the skill focus to Intimidation, with plans to put a few of my feats that aren't boosting my shield fighting are put into enhancing my intimidation factor. I knew going into it he wasn't going to be the best of the best he could be, but I didn't care for this, and I generally don't with my character builds. I wanted the flavor.
I go into all that because it sounded like this new archetype was spelling out a lot of the core elements of this character. So I will take a look at the book and compare the chain I had already built for him (currently CL7 with no multiclassing). I likely will stick with it and not "dip" into this archetype after all, but cool to know it's there.
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Think of it less as a Fighter with Rage & more as a Barbarian who trades some of his goodies for a lot more feats.
He Rages as a Barbarian of his level -3 that means if his effective Barbarian Level would allow him to get Greater & Mighty Rage he does. Though I can't find the thread where that was said... Though it was dealing with the Ranger Archetype and Domain/Sub-Domain that gets the same type of ability.
In my opinion many archetypes are built to fit a certain theme, for this one the theme stands for a warrior with....
1.combat training
2.battle rage
3.axe/sword & shield combo.
4.More of a focus towards intimidating the enemy into submission then outright killing theme.
Viking culture was not one of ruthless slaughter but of the honor of dieing in battle and of capturing your enemies alive.So while I think the loss of bravery doesn't fit with the fight or die spirit of the vikings, the rest of the archetype fits perfectly well.
So while the rage seems to be less effective then the barbarians, it fits the archetype due to the fact that A)the rage is more about intimidation then blood-thirst and B)the rage ability if a key part of the barbarian class. so any role-playing game wouldn't use the same level-by-level ability for the archetype or else the Barbarian loses its appeal and in result people would rather play the archetypes with the ability over the class.
in short the reason why the viking archetype doesn't have the same powerful rage as the barbarian is so that it doesn't make the barbarian lose its special position as rage master.
so if you want to play a rage focus viking go with the sea reaver archetype barbarian. but if you want to play a more fighting discipline type, go with the Viking archetype barbarian.
Is Viking a Barbarian or Fighter Archetype?
And Vikings knew when to get the frak out of dodge. So them not having bravery doesn't bother me.
Is Viking a Barbarian or Fighter Archetype?
And Vikings knew when to get the frak out of dodge. So them not having bravery doesn't bother me.
Viking is a archetype for the fighter class that has the ability of a barbarian rage three levels lower.
Ok. I thought that was what it was it was just a wait moment...
So it is exactly like the Wild Stalker.
And by what I can tell the only thing a Viking & Wild Stalker don't get is Mighty Rage.
An Axe & Shield based Fighter with all the Weapon Specific Feats could be more Powerful than a full 20 Level Barbarian...
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He Rages as a Barbarian of his level -3 that means if his effective Barbarian Level would allow him to get Greater & Mighty Rage he does. Though I can't find the thread where that was said... Though it was dealing with the Ranger Archetype and Domain/Sub-Domain that gets the same type of ability.
Does anyone have a link or source for this? I had the same concern as Seer, and seeing the ruling and its context would help out a lot in making me feel better about the archetype.
I personally see it as a Way to build an alternate Barbarian on the Fighter or Ranger Chassis without the need to make an Alternate Barbarian Class.
The ruling was on a Wild Stalker Thread. It was recently Necro'd with a post asking for clarification on the Viking as well. Not sure if it was answered or not.
I just realized that (IIRC) technically the Viking only loses Armour Training 1. They keep Armour Training 2,3 & 4. Though they are reduced to the effects of Armour Training 1, 2, & 3.
I´m pretty sure if something like armor training 1 is replaced in the first place you don´t get the follow ups. There fore i would say the viking gets the rage follow ups, just three levels later as the barbarian. At least that would follow the logic of other archetypes.
Many archetypes are cramped in somewhere and lack good descriptions or seem to be not fully explained or sometimes even fully thought through.
Most are based on cool ideas though.
If you specifically lose the first instance of an ability like armor training 1, you still get the later ones, just at 1 less. It's in the FAQ for the APG I believe.
Actually I believe it was in the Errata.
I just wasn't sure as it typically says Armour Training 1. And Yes in a thread about the Wild Stalker it was confirmed that you do get all the base Rage upgrades. Even with the... Rage Domain? and similar. So a Wild Stalker and Viking at Level 20 Rage as a Level 17 Barbarian.
According to herolab its replaced. The fact that you receive another +1 at the respective levels also points in that direction.
"He looses armor training in favor of shield defense (+1 ac when using a shield 4th, 7th, 11th, 15th)" Exactly the armor training levels. :)
Herolab let´s me add some weapon trainings though, i believe that might be a mistake.
But hey Viking!
With tribal scars and maybe later toughness a scary foe!
Add in intimidating prowess and be cool!
Only thing is it seems you can´t use a lot of rage powers that are restricted to barbarian levels. Pitty.
Herolab is known to contain Errors. Even more than PCGen.
I think it fits the Viking to get Reduced Armour Training in exchange for increasing Shield AC. Especially if Shield Focus (& Greater) can't be used with it like some suggest.
They apparently count as a Barbarian with Level -3 for both Rage & Rage Powers. Meaning if it is Barbarian 17 or less the Viking (& Wild Stalker) can take it... Sweet... Not like it matters for me though as I can't see most of the Barbarian Level X Powers being used except maybe some Totem Powers.
They do cover more books. But they do have things wrong according to Paizo in a few cases.
Assuming the archivesofnethys is correct, then the whole armor training ability is replaced, not just the first instance (armor training 1).
Shield Defense (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a viking learns the art of fighting with a shield. Whenever she is wearing medium, light, or no armor and wielding a shield, the viking’s shield bonus to AC increases by 1. Every 4 levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), this bonus increases by 1. This ability replaces armor training.
But then why is Weapon Training not just listed as Weapon Training and not Weapon Training 1, 2, 3, & 4?
My guess is that one of the two were changed in development and the other thing wasn't updated properly (example: the vivisectionist still recommending taking bomb discoveries). Both mean the same thing, although the way shield defense words it is more correct.
Sounds like an Errata or F.A.Q. moment...
Though this means a Fighter(Viking) is more Defensive(Like a Norse Soldier) and less offensive (like a Viking Soldier).
For Shield Defense to replace just the first instance of armor training, it'd need to read "This ability replaces armor training 1", like the Tactician, Mobile Fighter, or Weapon Bearer Squire do.
So a Viking is better for a Norse Soldier & the Sea Reaver is better for a Viking... Okay then...
Could be. Maybe Patrick Renie will stop by and tell us what's up. I doubt your PFS character will hit the level where this matters anytime soon though :)
True. Especially since I will probably choose the slower path (If it is still an option) & don't really have a good PFS Community nearby.
Of course herolab has errors, it´s a lot of stuff to implement and change everytime there. But most times the errors are obvious and get fixed soon.
The shield defense text there says it replaces armor training, not armor training 1, and it gets an additional +1 every 4 levels thereafter. So it starts at level3 with +1 and get´s +2 at level 7 and +3 at level 11 and +4 at level 15. That is just like the whole armor training.
Shield focus increases the AC bonus by +1 and shield defense says "the viking´s shield bonus to AC" increases by 1. I think that should stack, simply because it increases both the same bonus type per a special ability. If you want to argue about that you could argue that shield focus does not stack with armor because of the wording, but that is nonsense.
I think it may actually have been developed. You can see the flavor for the archetype mentions them being skilled at fighting with ax or spear in conjunction with a shield, and that's only reflected by the shield defense, which doesn't really fulfill what the flavor said.
We can see the same sort of thing happened with the Grenadier alchemist archetype.
As an unusual side effect of their skill at handling bombs and alchemical items with increased speed, grenadiers master the ability to drink potions, elixirs, and mutagens quickly and safely, without exposing themselves to peril while doing so.
They don't get any ability like that, although the author mentioned at one point they did and that it must've been edited out in development.
So, that's my working theory based on the little evidence available.
They say it doesn't stack because it is the same ability. I think they are just being antagonistic.
I guess the Designers feel that since it is getting Rage it needs Gimp'd in some way... Sort of like the Wild Stalker.
I see it as them boosting their Shield and using their Feats on boosting their Weapons.
After all the 3 Common Viking weapons are: Short Spears, Javelins, & Axes
All of these are already available to the Fighter.
As far as i know vikings actually used longswords too. Was quite common among germanic tribes, they called it the "sax" or "langsax".
For a real viking the helmet is quite important too.
Probably Cheapy is right, as so often, hehe.
When i read the decription of the Kapenia dancer i was quite enthusiastic, but then found it pretty disapointing.
For the viking getting a boost in the "viking weapon group" would also fit quite well.
Azaelas Fayth, who says that? On this forum you can always find someone who says something, for nearly all POV´s. And quite a bit of that i see as trolling or their ideas and GM fiat over the rest, because it makes sense in their head. If the developers or official sources state something, it´s different, at least for PFS.
The Longsword was usually reserved for Higher Ranking members.
& Horned Helms were only Ceremonial.
The problem with a Viking Weapon Group is the simple fact that it would be the Largest weapon group in the Game.
I would make the Viking weapon group one-handed axes, longswords, spears and javelins.
I don´t meant the horned helmets, but the masked war helmets.
The Masked Helmets were Burial Helms. The typical War Helm just had a Nose Guard. Now a Chief or Under-Chief would probably have a pseudo-mask that attached to their helm. Some of the known examples were made by Romans and could slide up into the helm. Think of the one Gladiator from... Well the Gladiator...
And great. Now I want Gladiator to Stack with Viking...
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Are there any alignment restrictions like barbarian? If not this is a good way to play a paladin/barbarian type character.
There are no Alignment Restrictions.
It has been confirmed that they lose all Armour Training. Apparently they are retconing the ruling on only listing the feature name without the numbers.
Though Paizo seems to be making a lot of Typos as errata in their recent books.
Viking is an activity, it means to go or participate in an overseas expedition. Though it has connotations of raiding, it is also used to describe trading expeditions. Norse is an ethnicity.
A Norseman might go viking, or he might stay home. ^_^
Viking originally meant Wanderer.
What? Where was this posted?
That´s what i wanted to ask too. Like "proof or it didn´t happen"^^
It was in another thread. Mainly it was one of the ones working on the Viking Entry for the d20pfsrd website.
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I was the one who edited the d20pfsrd page...
I'm official now :-D
Though it seems weird that they retconned it.