Since when does any of that affect CMB?Um...
Does that monk have an amulet of the mighty fist (and why not) +1~3 on that grapple check DC then. Weapon focus unarmed strike? Another +1.
Dude need to go recheck your rules:
First off the Wizard's Concentration check:
Level + Int Mod + combat casting. Level 13 + 10 from Int + 4 from combat casting means +27 IF you have an ioun stone you get another +1 meaning +28 at best -- please note I said "best". The check that Thrall offered is simply minus the Ioun stone and combat casting.
Secondly:
"Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver."
Pretty easy to see IMO.
The DC for casting a spell while grappled by a 13th level monk with a Dex of 24 and agile maneuvers, without an amulet of mighty fist or weapon focus or any bonuses from spells:
13 from CMB = monk level
7 from dex
2 from improved grapple
10 from base Concentration difficulty
4 from spell level
DC: 36
If the monk has greater grapple that's another +2 on the check. weapon focus is another +1. Amulet of the mighty fist +2 is another +2 of course meaning the DC increases to 41. If it's a large monk then the DC increases by another 1 to 42, if hasted then it's a 43.
Level + Int Mod + combat casting. Level 13 + 10 from Int + 4 from combat casting means +27 IF you have an ioun stone you get another +1 meaning +28 at best -- please note I said "best".
Wrong! Without trying to dig, there's a trait for another +2.
Secondly:
"Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver."
Sure, those are modifiers to your roll to try to grapple -- but that still doesn't change what your CMB is, any more than the amulet of mighty fists raises your base attack bonus.
I think adding that to concentration DCs to cast in a grapple would be a pretty reasonable house rule, but that's not what the rule is as written.
Again, how likely is it, really, for a caster to take combat casting? It's not an optimal choice of a feat. The opportunity cost is terrible.
How likely is it to take the trait? Not really.
It seems like a decent percentage of casters in my games pick it. YMMV.
Edited to add: and damn near 100% have the trait in question.
Level + Int Mod + combat casting. Level 13 + 10 from Int + 4 from combat casting means +27 IF you have an ioun stone you get another +1 meaning +28 at best -- please note I said "best".
Wrong! Without trying to dig, there's a trait for another +2.
Good point that would give a +30 at level 13.
Secondly:
"Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver."
Sure, those are modifiers to your roll to try to grapple -- but that still doesn't change what your CMB is, any more than the amulet of mighty fists raises your base attack bonus.
I think adding that to concentration DCs to cast in a grapple would be a pretty reasonable house rule, but that's not what the rule is as written.
I'll grant the CMB issue since it does state "CMB" and not "Grapple bonus", so the monk suggested isn't the best option (though I would point out that an 'equal level' monk isn't CR equivlent for an APL party of 4).
Grappled or Pinned while casting: 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level
But honestly what is the wizard going to face? A monk or a Storm Giant?
Storm Giant CMB is 30 so the check in this case is a 44 (30+10+4)
Blue Adult Dragon is going to have a CMB of 26 -- a Mature Adult will have a CMB of 29 (before buffs -- there are a couple that will have an affect on his CMB).
Froghemoth's have a CMB of 24 but will have a chance to swallow whole too, and constriction.
The shipwrecker crab is ironically a very real danger for the wizard due to it's vermin status and very large CMB (37) if the wizard gets grabbed then he's looking at a whopping DC 51 concentration check.
The colossal Construct (CR 11) has a CMB of 39 (and could have other nice traits as well).
Crag Linnorm -- well lets just say that if a linnorm gets close enough to hit your wizard you'll probably going to need a new timmy (yes it's CR 1 higher than your level -- these things do happen).
the day i see an apg class solo an adult dragon thats 2 CR above it, i will believe any of them are overpowered, however to date, only a cleric, paladin, sorceror, and wizard in my gaming community have managed to pull it off
The Witch can probably do it. It has the best chance IMHO anyway.
Edit" +1 to what LT said also.
the day i see an apg class solo an adult dragon thats 2 CR above it, i will believe any of them are overpowered, however to date, only a cleric, paladin, sorceror, and wizard in my gaming community have managed to pull it offThe Witch can probably do it. It has the best chance IMHO anyway.
Edit" +1 to what LT said also.
Summoner could too -- Inquisitor is likely too.
Summoner could too -- Inquisitor is likely too.the day i see an apg class solo an adult dragon thats 2 CR above it, i will believe any of them are overpowered, however to date, only a cleric, paladin, sorceror, and wizard in my gaming community have managed to pull it offThe Witch can probably do it. It has the best chance IMHO anyway.
Edit" +1 to what LT said also.
I honestly don't know the inquisitor class that well so I have no argument with which to confirm or deny that. I don't see the summoner beating a dragon though. Of course this also includes what some people would consider to be underhanded things, such as grappling the summoner and flying off. IIRC the Eidolon is dismissed if he is to far away. Another thing I seem to remember is that the hit point transfer ability is hindered by distance.
PS:I also admit my summoner knowledge is not that great either, but at least I have basic idea of how it works.
Somebody has to explain to me why Alchemists are considered to be so weak. Or just point me to a thread where people go into detail about this. :p
A 13th level character has 140,000 gp worth of gear. To spend a little less than a third of that on one specialized item is, in my opinion, not all that optimal.
And not needing to spend that is just one more reasons why wizards rock, at by this level devoting one slot per day to Freedom of Movement is trivial and one cast lasts the entire adventuring day.
Besides the idea that the grapple can do s$@~ against a mid- to high-level wizard hinges on the assumption, that the wizard is minimally prepared and does not expect a serious opposition. Othwerwise, plentiful miss chances will destroy any grapplers without a plenty of natural attacks and Improved Grab. And again, at high levels, wizards start throwing Freedom of Movement on themselves just in case.
No, they don't.That's a common misunderstanding. The gold piece per level for characters doesn't get doubled just because you have a crafting feat.
The fact that it costs half as much to make an item has no impact on what your total gear cost is. It just means you end up with some extra gold you can spend on frivolous crap (a huge beer tab).
Page and quote, please.
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It seems to me that the "Wizard is God" theorists spend about 90% of their daily spells buffing themselves against things that might (but probably won't, in a normal session) happen.
And again, at high levels, wizards start throwing Freedom of Movement on themselves just in case.
Seriously. Hence why I keep saying people need to post a build. In theory you can have everything, but squeeze it all into a build and have it active when you need it.
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Yeah, sorry, I gotta call you on this one. Wealth By Level is a guideline - a guideline there are excellent reasons for following, but a guideline nonetheless. However, feats (particularly in the proper combinations) are powerful, and the oppotunity cost of being able to use more feats directly in an encounter should buy you a lot more than fluff items.Page and quote, please.
No, they don't.That's a common misunderstanding. The gold piece per level for characters doesn't get doubled just because you have a crafting feat.
The fact that it costs half as much to make an item has no impact on what your total gear cost is. It just means you end up with some extra gold you can spend on frivolous crap (a huge beer tab).
I agree, but if you take all of the Crafting feats, you then aren't taking other feats which give you bonuses.
Which is the problem with theory vs build posts.
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That does seem to be the case but it is probably because all of those "wizard is the easiest class to defeat ever" theorists demand about 99.9% of days to have encounters that involve things that might (but probably won't, in a normal session) happen.
I don't think anyone is claiming that the wizard is the easiest to defeat. But the attitude of "my wizard is immune to X because he always has spell Y up" is pretty ridiculous.
I'm just wondering how effective the super-god wizard is when he spends all his spell slots except cantrips making himself invulnerable to attack. He might not be vulnerable to attack, but he can't actually bother to contribute anything useful beyond the level of Presdigitation.
Most adventures I've ever run require more than mere survival.
DM: Rocks fall, you all die.
God-Wizard: Nuh-uh. I buffed myself with Anti-DM Fiat this morning. Neener neener neener!
That does seem to be the case but it is probably because all of those "wizard is the easiest class to defeat ever" theorists demand about 99.9% of days to have encounters that involve things that might (but probably won't, in a normal session) happen.I don't think anyone is claiming that the wizard is the easiest to defeat. But the attitude of "my wizard is immune to X because he always has spell Y up" is pretty ridiculous.
I'm just wondering how effective the super-god wizard is when he spends all his spell slots except cantrips making himself invulnerable to attack. He might not be vulnerable to attack, but he can't actually bother to contribute anything useful beyond the level of Presdigitation.
Most adventures I've ever run require more than mere survival.
DM: Rocks fall, you all die.
God-Wizard: Nuh-uh. I buffed myself with Anti-DM Fiat this morning. Neener neener neener!
The "God" wizard is pretty squishy actually. That's why he needs to team up with some big stupid fighters to play defense. By mid level you will certainly have some long duration defensive spells up most of the time, but nothing game breaking. Contingency is usually used defensively as well.
Once you are at a level to have a lesser quicken rod you may start combat with a mirror image or energy resistance or something, but nothing that will make you laugh at danger.
3.5 was a bit different, there were a fair number of long duration spells that granted all kinds of immunities. Wizards would begin the day with the "Heart of..." spells and elemental form to be immune to crits, stunning, poisons, etc etc etc.
Pathfinder hasn't created issues like that at this point - hopefully that doesn't change.
The funny thing is, casters can easily destroy the "four fights a day" thing too, between teleporting or rope trick or a bevy of other tools they have to ensure they can sleep whenever, wherever.Sure... IF THEY HAVE THE TIME. That's the one resource you can't get back. Your average Society adventure keeps you too busy to get away with that kind of malarkey. Repeat this again children... THERE ARE NO 15 MINUTE DAYS IN PFS.
Yup.
It's hard to stop Team Wizard from resting whenever they want to, but it's easy to set up an adventure in which they've failed whatever they were trying to accomplish if they do.
And again, at high levels, wizards start throwing Freedom of Movement on themselves just in case.
Freedom of Movement isn't a wizard spell. I suppose they could use Limited Wish or something.
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I never ever ever allow people to use item creation feats to fudge the Wealth By Level guidelines. It's an entire subversion of the formula and just asking for trouble. If it's a one shot... I follow the PFS guidelines and ban all item creation feats period.
So when you do let them take them, do you make it clear that the only thing the feats do is give them the ability to craft items they can't find? They understand they are not actually saving any money?
Because you get that 1/2X to spend on non-gear stuff.
Examples?
He didn't say it was optimal, and crafting discounts help.No, they don't.
That's a common misunderstanding. The gold piece per level for characters doesn't get doubled just because you have a crafting feat.
The fact that it costs half as much to make an item has no impact on what your total gear cost is. It just means you end up with some extra gold you can spend on frivolous crap (a huge beer tab).
When I audit PCs for WBL, I take their treasure + GP value of all their gear and compare it to the WBL chart. The result is that it doesn't matter if the PC bought an item at full price, made it at half price, or stole it. There are spikes for PCs at times, but it gets balanced out with future treasure hoards and events.
So what you are saying LT is that the feat lets you spend 1/2X instead of X on an item, but the WBL guidelines say you have to spend the 1/2X you saved on ale and whores instead of other equipment? How is that mechanically different from spending X on the item?
It's not. It might result in a short spike in a PC's WBL after an item is made, for himself. But if you actually use the WBL chart as a guideline, you as GM adjust future treasure parcels accordingly.
Usually what I've seen though is that a PC with a crafting feat crafts things for other party members too. It's typically used as a pseudo-teamwork feat.
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When I audit PCs for WBL, I take their treasure + GP value of all their gear and compare it to the WBL chart. The result is that it doesn't matter if the PC bought an item at full price, made it at half price, or stole it. There are spikes for PCs at times, but it gets balanced out with future treasure hoards and events.
I like this method of handling it better.
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I like this method of handling it better.
When I audit PCs for WBL, I take their treasure + GP value of all their gear and compare it to the WBL chart. The result is that it doesn't matter if the PC bought an item at full price, made it at half price, or stole it. There are spikes for PCs at times, but it gets balanced out with future treasure hoards and events.
That's exactly how I've done it, since, like always. If you get something for half price or *shock* for free, it's fine and dandy, you're ahead in finances, but it still counts at full value when I calculate just how much stuff should the PCs get.
So what you are saying LT is that the feat lets you spend 1/2X instead of X on an item, but the WBL guidelines say you have to spend the 1/2X you saved on ale and whores instead of other equipment? How is that mechanically different from spending X on the item?I never ever ever allow people to use item creation feats to fudge the Wealth By Level guidelines. It's an entire subversion of the formula and just asking for trouble. If it's a one shot... I follow the PFS guidelines and ban all item creation feats period.
It is what we do in our current game:
Most of the treasure are magic items, potions, scrolls, etc.. few actual money. We don't want to abuse magic shops and the rules seem to encourage that kind of treasure. Many items, what is left of the treasure budget will appear as money/gems/etc...
Since the rules give a 10% of their wealth as money to new characters we try to put at least 10% of the treasure value in coins, but it is arbitrary.
Of course the character will eventually get more money selling items, etc..
The item creation feats are also limited by the time needed to craft items.
It allows him to have an increase in the wealth per level, but not a big increase.
Well, the guy that plays the Wizard thinks that it is a balanced approach and makes the item creation feats worth it but not broken.
Looking at the bonus he gets with the extra wealth it looks ok.