No, core is always important. It means the books you must have to run a game. Books everyone is assumed to have at all games.
It has nothing to do with open and non open content, but what you must have to use a product. Up into now you only had to have the core books as all non core items were included within the AP.
No, core is always important. It means the books you must have to run a game. Books everyone is assumed to have at all games.
It has nothing to do with open and non open content, but what you must have to use a product. Up into now you only had to have the core books as all non core items were included within the AP.
Technically, in the 3.x era of WoTC, Core meant books published by WoTC and non-Core was anything made by a 3PP.
So even using the APG and Bestiary 2 would still be Core-only.
Core for any RPG means the core products needed to run a game. Core has nothing to do with who make it.
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Ok, my english is rusty and is hard to express what i want to say.
I can´t say i understand your point, i live in other culture, a culture that highly values adaptation and creativity and don´t like to follow norms and protocol (or even laws, but this is our problem).
So for me, if a book is written without anything to care beyond the writer artistic inspiration, then the book is better. But when things like censorship, politically correctness or sales numbers enter the equation the book loses worth. Of course no book can be 100% free of those things but we like to think that way.
If the author write the book putting any material from any book, i can adapt it to my reality, but if he conforms to the unwritten rules of RPG etiquette then we will never know what the book could have been. That small thing that keeps a good book to being a masterpiece.
Paizo has my trust, they already done many things i didn´t believe a non-indie company could do. And i am certain that you all care very much about Paizo´s work or you wouldn´t be here discussing about that.
So let´s try to understand them a bit more. This is a big unfair world, and many problems would befall over Pathfinder if Paizo don´t take care.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Technically, in the 3.x era of WoTC, Core meant books published by WoTC and non-Core was anything made by a 3PP. So even using the APG and Bestiary 2 would still be Core-only.
Rathenar, I'm not sure whether or not Wizards ever defined "core". Having said that, they didn't write a whole lot of adventures -- saving those in Dungeon magazine -- but the published adventures either (a) used only the basic three books, or (b) explained what else they were using. For example, you didn't see any Warlocks, Illumians, or Nycters in the Age of Worms. You did see psionics in Eberron books, but you knew that going in.
In any case, Paizo has defined what Core means: The basic rulebook, and the Bestiary. The Summoner has been described as "a base class, but not a core class."
If the author write the book putting any material from any book, i can adapt it to my reality, but if he conforms to the unwritten rules of RPG etiquette then we will never know what the book could have been.
Draco, I think I understand what you mean. The way I understand you, you're imagining that an author might want to include elements from the APG, or from a thir-party publisher, in an AP, and that you would prefer that writers be able to do this, to expres their ideas best, rather than be limited to core material. Do I understand you correctly?
If so, I assure you that nobody here is arguing that the APs only use material from the Core Rulebook and the Bestiary. Seeker and other folks here are asserting that, if the writer uses material from other sources when he designs an encounter, it would be nice to include all the rules which the GM would need to run that encounter.
My position is a little different: that, if an AP uses, say, and weapons from "Dwarves of Golarion", then it should either (a) provide those rules, or (b) clearly spell out on the back-cover somewhere that the adventure requires "Dwarves of Golarion".
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Draco, I think I understand what you mean. The way I understand you, you're imagining that an author might want to include elements from the APG, or from a thir-party publisher, in an AP, and that you would prefer that writers be able to do this, to expres their ideas best, rather than be limited to core material. Do I understand you correctly?
Yes, thank you.
My position is a little different: that, if an AP uses, say, and weapons from "Dwarves of Golarion", then it should either (a) provide those rules, or (b) clearly spell out on the back-cover somewhere that the adventure requires "Dwarves of Golarion".
I can understand that, but i guess my position is hopeless. It would be nice, but (at least for me) is such a minor issue. And that bad publicity all this discussion makes, might hurt Pathfinder a lot more than the original issue. I will trust your opinion on this, if you judge it´s not a problem then i am ok with it.
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I think that reducing more monster stats to one line page references frees up space for more encounters, making adventures take more levels. There's a very vocal group of players that want their APs to reach 20. If referencing Bestiary 2 monsters, APG feats/spells/classes or GMG NPCs by page HP (Book Page) instead of a full stat block allows that to happen then more power to Paizo. More power to the GMs. It just adds about 20 minutes of prep time before an adventure, but I've never found an adventure that didn't require prep work. It's the nature of players affecting the game world.
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Only on the internet would people complain about having to look up an occasional reference to information in a $40 book that the company put online for free on its own website....
Either you really missed KEJR's point here, or you're deliberately being a [stricken]/
The question was put forward by Paizo staff. KEJR put forth a very valid concern. If the information is not in the Core Assumption, then this means that a DM will need that material if he does not have on-line access.
Take your example of the Hungry Ghost monk given later in the thread.
DM JAM is working a convention. His schedule gets juggled and the Organizer asks if he wouldn't mind running that module instead of one he was slotted for. (Marshalling tables showed that there weren't enough players, or whatever reason.)
DM JAM steps up like the great team player that he is, and sits down at a table to run through the module. He gets to the monk described. Well, he's got the Core Rules and the Bestiary. But since he's in the middle of the con, and hey the hotel didn't provide wifi access for him. Or the Organizer has the machine tied up, or whatever.
DM JAM now has really only two options. He can spend extra time hunting up a resource that is outside the core assumption to find the rule, or he can simply ignore the feat, effectively downgrading the monk.
Either way, it doesn't matter if the material is available online if a DM doesn't have online access. It isn't whining or complaining to wish that either the material needed to run a module be from the core assumption, or that the material be included in the module. If the space limitation is truly that dire that the text of the non-core feat cannot be printed, then perhaps the correct design choice would be to not have the monk have that feat.
The flippant comments don't benefit the discussion.
It does raise the bar a bit for someone who is rather new to all this stuff, but I guess that's what pathfinder: basic (or whatever) will be for, so go ahead. I think the product will be better for it.
I don't think they are talking about PFS adventures. I took it they was asking about AP's and the adventure line.
I do agree PFS should have everything in them a GM needs to run them. Since they are meant to do at a con in short periods of time.
It is true that this discussion is about the AP line, however, if its valid to assume that GMs can look up material on the PRD for the AP, then why wouldn't this same policy hold true for adventures or PFS adventures?
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I don't think they are talking about PFS adventures. I took it they was asking about AP's and the adventure line.
I do agree PFS should have everything in them a GM needs to run them. Since they are meant to do at a con in short periods of time.
It is true that this discussion is about the AP line, however, if its valid to assume that GMs can look up material on the PRD for the AP, then why wouldn't this same policy hold true for adventures or PFS adventures?
I would say no, because AP's and adventures are meant to be run at home or where ever. But they are meant to be run at any pace. PFS are meant to be run in a sloted time frame. So anything that can increase said time taken to run them, goes against the idea of them. Which is not true of the others.
+1 on OGL information not needing separate statsblocks. I can spare 1 or 2 minutes of my DMing time to click on a bookmarked page to see stats in order to have a more complete adventure and/or save space for bonus material.
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I'd also like to point out that since day 1 the APs are using monsters from ToHR/BoF. Of course, the statblocks are complete, but the whole lore/ecology is still outside, in the parent books. Does it mean that APs are incomplete ?
Heck, this is getting absurd. WotC gets chased for keeping their content closed and Paizo is now getting flak for actually trying to use OGL in a meaningful way.
Yeah I'm beginning to understand what people mean when they say the Paizo site is very unfriendly.
I really don't know what else to say either. I mean, this wasn't even an unsolicited opinion. James actually asked people what they thought, and it brought this on.
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Every time I buy an AP I cringe at anything that takes away from the adventure itself and the support material. I have a big beef with the fiction, but that's a lost case I think. I voiced loudly my opinion about the Side Treks, and was delighted when they got dragged out and shot in the back. And now I am looking at possibility of having the space taken by reprinting stuff which is freely available online, for sake of any, in my opinion, unfounded reservations. Or worse, at the APs being "core-only". So, since it's my gaming dollar value in question here, I'll bite as much as I can chew. Capitalism ho !
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I think there should continue to be APG (and GMG, Besitary 2, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, etc) content included in the APs and modules.
I also think they should be fully statted out, at least for now as the content is still new and even those of us who've purchased books from the RPG line could do with some remiders.
However, I also think that as time goes on, they should be summarised down to the same format as the current bestiary references, say after 3 APs have been finished including the full information.
I appreciate the valid concern of those who do not wish to have to purchase too many books, but I think a waiting period should be sufficient as I don't think the conversion work is much more onerous than that required to update the original 3.5 Paths to Pathfinder, something that has not proven to be much of a challenge in my experience.
I strongly suggest that Paizo make use of content from "non-core" books in their adventure paths and other products. I also fully support the notion of including "replacement suggestions" for those who do not have the necessary other products. However, any product that makes use of "non-core" rules should say so VERY clearly on the cover of the product and/or on the store page so people can not possibly claim they did not know beforehand.
With Paizo making everything available online, for free, its basically absurd to complain about not having access to those other products. Sorry, but that's how it is. I would be stunned if the percentage of customers who do not have internet access either before or during play is greater that 2-3%. Paizo can not restrict the advantages to the very large majority over the limitations of the very small minority. This supports sales of their other products as well as saving space in the base product for putting more info for that ap (or whatever.) It also helps encourage the growth of those other ideas into more places. I too hated how there was an invisible wall between "core" and "non-core" in other systems and that all products only made use of the very small subset of content in the "core" category. Everything in the "non-core" category becomes "fire and forget" meaning, ship it out the door then pretend it doesn't exist etc.
Anyone who complains about Paizo requiring purchase of products is delusional. No other company does what Paizo does and people ought to recognize this and be very thankful for it.
I'm going to ask that people refrain from arguing with other posters in this thread. Feel free to share your opinions, and why you feel that way, but yelling at someone for having a different opinion that you isn't helping.
We'd like to get honest feedback in this thread, and we can't get that if people are afraid to share because they think someone is going to jump down their throat about it.
I have removed a few posts.
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I think there should continue to be APG (and GMG, Besitary 2, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, etc) content included in the APs and modules.
I also think they should be fully statted out, at least for now as the content is still new and even those of us who've purchased books from the RPG line could do with some remiders.
However, I also think that as time goes on, they should be summarised down to the same format as the current bestiary references, say after 3 APs have been finished including the full information.
I appreciate the valid concern of those who do not wish to have to purchase too many books, but I think a waiting period should be sufficient as I don't think the conversion work is much more onerous than that required to update the original 3.5 Paths to Pathfinder, something that has not proven to be much of a challenge in my experience.
+1 to this!
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Count me as on the fence here.
In the 3.5 era Red Hand of Doom was one of my favorite modules and my one big complaint about it was the fact that it had non-core material in the adventure. Paizo shares the material online which is a huge improvement, but I sympathize with people having to chase down rules so they can run a single encounter.
I like the new material and would love to see it used in adventures but I wouldn't mind seeing some space dedicated to helping those folks out who don't own the material.
Personally, I always loved having all the bad guys' stats in one place in an adventure. But I understand that takes up too much space, that would be better used for More Adventure. Therefore, I'm fine with having to look up beasts in Bestiary, and feats & the like in the. I'm also fine with looking up stuff in the APG & Bestiary 2.
Page & book references would be good; a note that info can be found online would be good, too.
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I read through the first page and was so incensed that I had to post without reading the rest. I almost never do that but this, I feel, is a special case.
Groups that don't allow laptops, internet, etc. at the table are fine. But I feel like that rule probably doesn't need to extend to the GM. In any case, I think its a ridiculous rule. Don't do distracting things is one thing. Don't have what is likely the single most important bit of tech in your life is another. This is the internet age, folks. You can get a PhD on this baby. And not the one you print out for $20 from the University of Madeupplace. An actual university accredited by the United States government.
The fact that some of you posit that you can't get get some necessary info from the internet while you post on an internet forum is beyond silly. It's free. You can access it at any time. You can copy and paste and print and get it however you need to. You can probably get it on your phone.
Don't think of it as an incomplete product. Just because you only have a DVD player at home doesn't mean a Bluray disk is an incomplete product. And that's not even a good metaphor because you can't get a Bluray player for free. It's more like you get a pill. And all this pill needs to become a house is air. Just the air all around you. But you're complaining that because it doesn't come with the air in the box, it's an incomplete product. It isn't. The air is right there. Just go get it.
Edit:
PS Happy New Year.
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My 2 cents--I dont have a problem with using new material that is accessable by net and adding as a note a substitute from beast1, for those that cant or dont use the net.
I dont think it is fair to say this thred in any way represents the masses. remember those that dont use the net or even this site ARENT here to voice it. I know people who dont know much about the net. they feel overwhelmed by it, so PLEASE lets not push them away from this GREAT game, by limiting them to much.
Now on to the ?? of room in the AP's. This i think is not an issuse. For me anyway. I dont see alot of players buying them. i GM PFS, so own no APs. Thus I dont know why they cant put the fiction and the extra god stuff in the players hand out where it would be better used and enjoyed. Thus more room for stating.
The company makes material then gives it away for free and you can't bring yourself to find a way to access the free material -- when they tell you where to find it and make it widely available (again, for free -- the stuff they rely on to make their livings no less) but you can't manage to get to it and print it off?
It's like complaining that you can't do read something when someone tells you where the library is and where the book in the library is (exactly where it is) and how to get to it.
IF the person grabs an AP off the shelf (especially if they are brand new to the system and thinks "I'm going to run this tonight!" they are:
1. Sadly mistaken
2. Going to be disappointed in how it goes (and their players will be too).
3. Giving themselves too much credit, and the system not enough.
If at the point you are a GM and have read the core book, then you will know that GMing isn't for the faint at heart and will take work/research -- it says as much in the chapter about GMing.
Given that so far everything has been available in the APs in some form or another, and the excellent suggestion of suggesting replacements in the case someone is too lazy to go find the free material where they are told to look, I wouldn't lose any sleep over losing these people.
Honestly I don't see what else the company could do to make life easier on you except not use the material -- and if you aren't going to use it, why publish it? (Which was one of my biggest beef's with WotC 3.5 -- an almost complete lack of support for material that was released in later books).
Honestly I don't see what else the company could do to make life easier on you except not use the material -- and if you aren't going to use it, why publish it? (Which was one of my biggest beef's with WotC 3.5 -- an almost complete lack of support for material that was released in later books).
I can almost understand the complaints about it not being "ready to run" without anything beyond the Core Rulebook and Bestiary. However, that mindset misses (IMO) the basic premise of an Adventure Path: that they are designed as a campaign in an established world setting. The Adventure Path line does more than just provide a series of linked adventures; it also further details the world setting and cosmology (to include the cultural snippets in the fiction), as well as providing new monsters and rules.
If people are looking for "ready to run" material, then they should be considering the Pathfinder Module or Pathfinder Society Scenario lines, both of which have single adventures and story arcs.
The use of "non-Core" material, when relevant, is (IMO) a minor issue; as long as that material is readily available in the PRD, then it's not difficult to find (adding the name of source publication and a reference to the PRD is probably the best way to help people find it). I'd also prefer to have expansion material supported as a means to help contain bloat/loopholes. I do not want Pathfinder to go down the same path as 3.5 and have twenty different base classes/feats/prestige classes, with minor variations, to accomplish the same thing; especially if they are developed without consideration of how they can be stacked by hardcore CharOps types.
For example, you didn't see any Warlocks, Illumians, or Nycters in the Age of Worms.
There was a warlock in Age of Worms, actually.
You are correct in that the stat block reprinted all of the rules for the invocations she knew, but it did not have the general rules for how invocations worked reprinted. And it was a long stat-block as it was.
In answer to James original question, I personally am fine with saving the space by not fully reprinting stuff. I'm the GM. I own the books. I have internet access. I like new stuff. Keeps the game from getting stale for me, too. Don't even print a line about possible core substitutes. If I need to, I'm clever enough to come up with a replacement on my own.
Even if I didn't have access to the rules, I'd change the adventure to match stuff I did have access to.
Example: New Years Eve my group busted out our Runelords characters. Karzoug was defeated years ago, but these are still our highest level characters, and we thought it'd be fun to do something else with them. I dug through my stack of Dungeon magazines for an 18th level adventure and settled on Root of Evil. I used the PF Bestiary and Bestiary 2 for most of the monster stats, but when I reached an encounter featuring two Truly Horrid Umber Hulks, I decided updating to PF rules was too much hassle and replaced them with an equivalent CR critter from the bestiary. Stuff like that happens all of the time. Adjusting pre-made adventures for your individual group is part of being the GM.
Creative Director
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Howdy, all!
Getting back into the swing of things after vacation here. Looks like we've had a LOT of feedback on the issue, not all of it friendly. I'm glad it seems that folks have started to calm down, but it depresses me whenever gamers feel the need to get overly hostile and antagonistic. So please... try not to use these boards as flame war grounds.
Now, back on topic... here's the truth of things: If we limit ourselves only to material in the core rulebook... we're going to stagnate when it comes to adventures. Simple truth. We publish 18 adventures a year for all sorts of levels, and there's simply not enough variety in the Bestiary and the Core Rulebook to cover every possible plot. To fight this, we've used non-core material from day one—Pathfinder #1 had characters with class levels from 3rd party books and monsters from the same, for example.
Now that we've got our OWN support books like the APG and Bestiary 2, it's just foolish to NOT support our own books. After all, we'd rather have folks buying more of our products than less... Paizo is a business, after all. And by utilizing content from books like the APG and the Bestiary 2, we not only support those books and we not only ADVERTISE those books, but we solve our core problem about plot stagnation as well.
As for how we present the information, we've been going back and forth internally quite a lot about the topic over the last year. Do we reprint every rule? Do we reprint only the bare minimum? The fact that all of our hardcover books are open content and thus the information is free for anyone with internet access only INCREASES the availability of that information, and as the years roll by, internet access is only going to get more widespread. So, ultimately, we felt that we'd be safe going with sporadically using content from books like Bestiary 2 with minimal or lessened reprinting. I'm eager to see how folks react to Carrion Crown, which is the first time we're really trying this out. If folks hate it, we'll switch back. If they prefer the fact that not having to reprint all that extra text allows us to have "fresher" adventures and, in the end, LONGER adventures, then we won't.
In the meantime, though, please try not to be jerks about it. If this choice annoys or aggravates you, let me know. If you REALLY want to vent, send me an email at james.jacobs@paizo.com to let me know what you think. Don't lash out at other posters here. That just makes everyone sad.
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Since it sounds like you're putting out another call for feedback, James, I'll weigh in.
I have to admit, I'm on the fence about all this. On the one hand, using material from your other books without reprinting the rules won't inconvenience me, personally, as I have pretty much everything you've done for Pathfinder (3.5 and PFRPG).
On the other hand, though, I do think that, on principle, the adventures should be usable with a minimum of other books available. Either by reprinting a minimum amount of rules, or providing alternatives to "non-core" materials. At the very least, I do think that adventures that use "non-core" materials should clearly mention that fact on either the front or back cover, so that buyers can tell this before they buy. If you limit the use of non-"Core Rulebook and Bestiary" materials to things in the PRD, I'd consider that a reasonable compromise. (Yes, not everybody has internet access at home, but with a little advance preparation one could access it at the library or a friend's house.)
Now, whatever you do, it's not going to affect my buying plans. I intend to continue subscribing as long as income (and other circumstances) allow. So, do what you need to do to keep your creativity up, just please keep in mind the players with more limited resources.
James, I am all for non core items in the books, however I do feel strongly everything you need to run the non core items should be in the book like it always has been.
If you can not run the AP with just the core books, it needs marked on the back cover at lest you need internet access or the non core books to use the AP. This needs marked as I would have been highly upset to find this out upon buying the book and not before hand. The group I was planning to run this for does not have labtops, we do not use the internet at the game table and no one in that group owns a printer{ I know , oh how cave man like we are}. So yeah useless to me.
I myself do feel it comes off as lazy and incomplete to not include those items you use outside of core in the book. You have always done so to date, so yeah it comes off as incomplete and unfinished to me. And a bit short sighted as not everyone has 24/7 internet access and printer access. You do not just sell to people in very urban areas within the upper income brackets. Some folks I know scrap by and play games, yours among them and you seem to be cutting some of your buying off for no real reason.
I said the same thing when this topic came up a few years back about another company and I stand behind what I said.
SS does have a point with it being marked on the cover. I think many GM's do prepare ahead of time, but sometimes people just want a quick game(happens spontaneously), and if a module just happens to be lying around the GM may give it a quick look over, and then be surprised once he gets to a certain point after the game has began.
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You do not just sell to people in very urban areas within the upper income brackets. Some folks I know scrap by and play games, yours among them and you seem to be cutting some of your buying off for no real reason.
I dwell in back of the woods of Eastern Europe, live off a rather comical PhD student stipend, and I do have them Intardwebs access, printer too ! I'm like a caveman with a laptop and cheap vodka. Your point isn't exactly strong here.
You do not just sell to people in very urban areas within the upper income brackets. Some folks I know scrap by and play games, yours among them and you seem to be cutting some of your buying off for no real reason.I dwell in back of the woods of Eastern Europe, live off a rather comical PhD student stipend, and I do have them Intardwebs access, printer too ! I'm like a caveman with a laptop and cheap vodka. Your point isn't exactly strong here.
There are places that are so backwoods there is no internet available, and there are people that just dont have it. I think it is a minority, but I don't think putting a logo with a picture of a printer in the bottom left corner so as to stay out of the artwork would be an issue.
See what you are doing. I have to take up for Seeker now. What is the world coming too? ;)
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You do not just sell to people in very urban areas within the upper income brackets. Some folks I know scrap by and play games, yours among them and you seem to be cutting some of your buying off for no real reason.I dwell in back of the woods of Eastern Europe, live off a rather comical PhD student stipend, and I do have them Intardwebs access, printer too ! I'm like a caveman with a laptop and cheap vodka. Your point isn't exactly strong here.There are places that are so backwoods there is no internet available, and there are people that just dont have it. I think it is a minority, but I don't think putting a logo with a picture of a printer in the bottom left corner so as to stay out of the artwork would be an issue.
See what you are doing. I have to take up for Seeker now. What is the world coming too? ;)
Tell me, I'm recently backing up TOZ. Hell freezing over ?
And to be honest, I can imagine that would be a problem with player-oriented material, when you have to rely on the whole table having access to the stuff. But with DM-side material ? That's one person, which most likely has Internet access because else he wouldn't even know that Pathfinder exists in the first place.
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Creative Director
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James, I am all for non core items in the books, however I do feel strongly everything you need to run the non core items should be in the book like it always has been.
If you can not run the AP with just the core books, it needs marked on the back cover at lest you need internet access or the non core books to use the AP. This needs marked as I would have been highly upset to find this out upon buying the book and not before hand. The group I was planning to run this for does not have labtops, we do not use the internet at the game table and no one in that group owns a printer{ I know , oh how cave man like we are}. So yeah useless to me.
I myself do feel it comes off as lazy and incomplete to not include those items you use outside of core in the book. You have always done so to date, so yeah it comes off as incomplete and unfinished to me. And a bit short sighted as not everyone has 24/7 internet access and printer access. You do not just sell to people in very urban areas within the upper income brackets. Some folks I know scrap by and play games, yours among them and you seem to be cutting some of your buying off for no real reason.
Well... prepare to be annoyed by Carrion Crown, I guess, because there's a few monster stat blocks in there that are in the short style but are from Bestiary 2. Until we see actual reactions to the book from customers, it's a bit soon to render judgements... personally, I'm not sure how things will play out. On one hand, it's certainly handy to have full stat blocks in the book, but on the other, we would have had to cut probably 3 to 6 encounters from the adventure had we reprinted full stat blocks for the two or so monsters from Bestiary 2 that don't get full stat blocks. Which is the lesser evil? I'm still not quite sure.
Note that this mostly just applies to non-modified monsters; for monsters that we advance in Hit Dice or give class levels, we'll continue to provide full stat blocks. This includes, obviously, ANY classed creature, be those classes from the core rules, the APG, or whatever.
One possible solution: when we present a monster from Bestairy 2 as a short stat block, we could drop in one additional line on the stat block that basically says: "Substitution" and then lists a monster to replace that monster with. In most cases, this would require a bit of GM prep work, since often such replacements would be to go with a rebuilt monster from the Bestiary with templates or adjustments to its Hit Dice. Examples of how this would look, using two monsters from "Haunting of Harrowstone" who get the short stat block treatment:
XP 600
hp 16 (Pathfinder Bestiary 2[ 211)
Replacement 2 HD Shadow; no melee attack or strength damage; add telekinesis as an at will spell-like ability (CL 3rd)
XP 200
hp 8 (Pathfinder Bestiary 2[ 289)
Replacement 1 HD assassin vine; no grab, constrict, or entangle special ability; add sleep 1/day as a spell-like ability (CL 1st)
Anyway, rest assured I'll be watching this and similar threads like a hawk. Whether or not we're jumping the gun on the assumption that the majority of our readers will have easy and convenient internet access at the game... I'm not sure. Some day sooner than we think, internet access will be all over... but we're not there yet, as my visit to my parents in Point Arena showed me (they still have dial-up internet due to the fact that they place they live is remote enough that they still don't have DSL or cable as internet options at all).
That's one person, which most likely has Internet access because else he wouldn't even know that Pathfinder exists in the first place.
This in incorrect. Pathfinder can be found in stores and was spread by word of mouth. I pointed some games without internet and very low incomes to the AP's based off all you needed was the 2 core books.
This has made me seem as lyer or uninformed. And yeah that upsets me as I am the one who told them they didn't have to have extra books or the internet to run the damned thing.
I game with people with no internet, no printer, who live up hollows that only get dial up at the very best and zero cell service. Those folks who were interested in trying to run a AP based off not needing any extra books are now screwed.
I plan to tell them not to buy those books now. Not all Gamers have those things some folks assume they do.
Well... prepare to be annoyed by Carrion Crown, I guess, because there's a few monster stat blocks in there that are in the short style but are from Bestiary 2.
Yes I know this now, which is why I shall not be buying or recommending CC to people I game with. I got lucky and saw this thread before I bought as the book is utterly useless to me. I do not own the Bestiary 2. and will not for some time and I do not have a printer.
To me it is simply an unusable, incomplete book now, pity I was looking forward to it. But at lest I found out before I foolishly paid for something I could not use. That may sound harsh but that is simply how I feel.
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Creative Director
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The group I was planning to run this for does not have labtops, we do not use the internet at the game table and no one in that group owns a printer{ I know , oh how cave man like we are}. So yeah useless to me.
I myself do feel it comes off as lazy and incomplete to not include those items you use outside of core in the book.
One more thing... and I'm NOT trying to be confrontational about this, just honest and curious.
If an adventure has 2 monsters out of, say 2 dozen, that are stat blocks that aren't fully reprinted, and assuming no one has a copy of Bestiary 2...
...how tough would it be to print out the stats for those few monsters well before the game? I mean, even if no one in the group owns a printer, there are plenty of ways to print out content from the internet. If you're in a case where you truly have NO access to on-site internet and cannot print out anything in advance anywhere, I assume that doesn't stunt your gaming creativity. What's wrong with simply building replacement monsters on your own for those missing creatures, or using replacement monsters from other books you might have in your game collection?
I guess I'm just seeing the calling of an entire adventure "useless" because a few monsters aren't fully statted as over reactionary, especially considering the nature of running an RPG (they ALWAYS benefit from the GM being able to customize and prepare additional content before hand).
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James if you guys do that route and honestly i think you should for a variety of reasons. That is to post little to no information in the AP's. Then I suggest you do add the URL to the PRD in each stat block saying the information can be found there. Just so someone doesn't read the adventure take their books to run a game and only then figure out the monster, class or what have you is not in the core books.
I think if you did that everyone should then read it and see in advance. Then they can go to the PRD web site and print out what they need.
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Creative Director
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Well... prepare to be annoyed by Carrion Crown, I guess, because there's a few monster stat blocks in there that are in the short style but are from Bestiary 2.
Yes I know this now, which is why I shall not be buying or recommending CC to people I game with. I got lucky and saw this thread before I bought as the book is utterly useless to me. I do not own the Bestiary 2. and will not for some time and I do not have a printer.
To me it is simply an unusable, incomplete book now, pity I was looking forward to it. But at lest I found out before I foolishly paid for something I could not use.
Well... I'm truly sorry that you were looking forward to Carrion Crown and now feel that you can't play it at all. That's certainly not our intention in taking this stance with the AP.
Now, that said...
... by not buying Carrion Crown, you're going to be saving a lot of money. CERTAINLY enough money that, instead, you'll be able to pick up a copy of Bestiary 2. I'm not trying to be a Paizo shill here... just pointing out that I think that the VAST MAJORITY of your concerns about "missing out on missing content" will be alleviated by purchasing Bestiary 2. At the very least, having another 300 monsters on hand when you don't have many other resources to draw from can only be a good thing, yeah?
In any event, we DO have several other adventure paths in print to choose from that ARE "complete" in their rules content. And if the way we're handling Carrion Crown is truly as terrible as it sounds (which I really ask you to approach with an open mind and to check out the adventure to see just how relatively minor those "missing stat blocks" are in the grand scheme of things), we'll be switching back to the old method with Jade Regent anyway.
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Creative Director
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James if you guys do that route and honestly i think you should for a variety of reasons. That is to post little to no information in the AP's. Then I suggest you do add the URL to the PRD in each stat block saying the information can be found there. Just so someone doesn't read the adventure take their books to run a game and only then figure out the monster, class or what have you is not in the core books.
I think if you did that everyone should then read it and see in advance. Then they can go to the PRD web site and print out what they need.
We do this already, on the credits page of every book. Incidentally, we also list all the other books you need on the same page.