Would a medium creature take the -2 inappropriate size penalty if they wielded a Large warhammer in two hands? I understand that they could in one-hand for the penalty, but am unsure about wielding it in two-hands.
Thanks!
Would a medium creature take the -2 inappropriate size penalty if they wielded a Large warhammer in two hands? I understand that they could in one-hand for the penalty, but am unsure about wielding it in two-hands.
Thanks!
Actually, they both get the -2 penalty AND they have to wield the warhammer with both hands.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon.
Hope that helps ;).
Greetings, fellow traveller.
From what I found at the PFSRD:
Weapon Size
Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
Emphasis mine.
So, a medium creature wielding a large one-handed weapon would incur the penalty AND had to wield the large weapon with two hands.
Ruyan.
Edit: ninja'd :-)
Would a medium creature take the -2 inappropriate size penalty if they wielded a Large warhammer in two hands? I understand that they could in one-hand for the penalty, but am unsure about wielding it in two-hands.
Thanks!
The penalty applies.
Rules References:
Page 141: "... a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder" and "A weapon's size category isn't the same at its size as an object".
Although a warhammer for a human is considered a small weapon, and increasing it's size by one step would make it a medium two-handed weapon, this increase in size is just increasing its size as an "object", and not the weapon's "size category".
Page 144: "A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder.
Although a human can wield a large warhammer as a two-handed weapon, the "intended" wielder is a large creature, so regardless of whether the human is trying to wield the warhammer in 1 hand or 2, the -2 penalty applies.
EDIT: Ninja'd twice
Why not just use an earthbreaker? It's a two-handed martial 2d6/x3 hammer. Pretty close to what you're trying to get mechanically and conceptually, but you don't suffer any penalties.
Am I the only one what was very happy with the introduction of the earthbreaker? Finally the DM no longer has to cheese up a bludgeoning equivalent of the greatsword.What book is that in?
Pathfinder Campaign Setting (3.0 book), but it was updated (with identical stats) in the Adventurer's Armory.
It costs 40gp and weighs 14 lb.
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Am I the only one what was very happy with the introduction of the earthbreaker? Finally the DM no longer has to cheese up a bludgeoning equivalent of the greatsword.What book is that in?Pathfinder Campaign Setting (3.0 book), but it was updated (with identical stats) in the Adventurer's Armory.
It costs 40gp and weighs 14 lb.
Thanks RD!
Sorry for bringing this post up again, but I'm looking for exact this weapon for one of my characters.
GA creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it.
But what if the "large Warhammer" was sized for the character? (differnce by simpla skaling an object and designing it especially for a purpose)
My Interpretation of this sentence would be, that if a character would use a ogres one-hand club (with two hands of course, because it's large), then he got this -2 malus, because the grip and balance isn't designed for him.
But e.g. a Halfling Greatsword, is nothing else then a longsword with a special grip and balance, suited for a halfling.
So with this I think, you can make most of the medium weapons into a large version, if these were designed for the race of the character. (of course there are some exceptions, like a large rapier, this make no sense).
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Sadly, there is no real way to make a weapon that is "designed" to be too large for your to wield normally, but at a -2. You HAVE to use both hands for it.
What we are explaining is that the large warhammer would be sized for a large character. To a huge character it would be a light hammer. For a medium creature it would simply be a ... large warhammer, able to be wielded in two hands (only) at -2.
You should really take a look at this weapon though, it's more/less exactly what you are looking for.
I know the Earth Breaker, it exactly a large warhammer (2d6/x3), but without the -2 Penalty, you see the patern? Only because it has a other Name?
No, because it's designed for a medium size creature, so why shouldn't a blacksmith be able to design a "large warhammer" for a medium creature (slim grip, other balance etc.).
But I think this should got to houserules, for me it make no sense, because where is the difference between the Earthbreaker and a large warhammer, designed as two-handed-weapon for a medium size creature? The stats are the same, only the Name is another one...
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It... is a large (Adjective) warhammer but not a large warhammer (noun). They can be made, and that is "essentially" what it is. A bigger version of the warhammer that is meant to be held in two hands.
The difference is that it NEEDED to be made so that medium size creatures could deal 2d6 damage with a bludgeoning weapons without taking the -2 to hit. The inappropriate size rule is there for a REASON, and ignoring it writing it off could result in players trying to use large greatswords or heavy crossbows for obscene damage.
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I know the Earth Breaker, it exactly a large warhammer (2d6/x3), but without the -2 Penalty, you see the patern? Only because it has a other Name?
No, because it's designed for a medium size creature, so why shouldn't a blacksmith be able to design a "large warhammer" for a medium creature (slim grip, other balance etc.).But I think this should got to houserules, for me it make no sense, because where is the difference between the Earthbreaker and a large warhammer, designed as two-handed-weapon for a medium size creature? The stats are the same, only the Name is another one...
A large hammer designed for two handed use in battle is an earthbreaker.
A large warhammer is something that could only be used by a large creature effectively.
The difference is that you can't just pick up some weapon that an ogre you fought dropped and expect to use it well. But when its sized for you then you can use it well. All two handed weapons usually are are upsized versions of other weapons.
The shortsword (d6) gets bigger and becomes a longsword (d8) which becomes bigger and is a greatsword (2d6). See how that exactly follows the rules for increases in size? Same thing for the Kukri, to Scimitar, to Falchion. But a large Scimitar, that is a scimitar for a large creature, is not a falchion. It's a scimitar for a guy with hands like couch cushions. A Falchion is not a scimitar for a large creature. It's sword with only half the handle. God help you if it has a basket hilt. You'd just never get your giant hands in there...
YuenglingDragon, that's exactly what I mean. :)
So to be in your line
shortsword -> Longsowrd (equal medium sized shortsword, designed to be used by a medium sized character) -> Greatsword (equal large sized longsword, designed to be used by a medium sized character with two hands)
So it's only the name, so a large warhammer, designed to be used with two hands by a medium sized creature is called a earthbreaker, simple. :)
The inappropriate size rule is there for a REASON, and ignoring it writing it off could result in players trying to use large greatswords or heavy crossbows for obscene damage.
A greatsword which has his size increased by one step (you call it large creatsword) has a weapon size of huge, and so can't be used by a medium sized creature, because you can only use weapons up to one size category larger then your own. so medium creature = max weapon size large. (And if a weapon size is larger then your own, you have to wield it with two hands).
So no chance a player can use a "large greatsword (size=huge)"...
With this I see no reason for appling a -2 Mali if you want to create a greater version of a weapon and use it, if you're allowed to use this weapon size. Of course this only counts if the larger weapon is directly designed to be used by a creature of your size. (not if e.g. you find a Troll One-Hand sword and want to use it as a greatsword)
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Tryn, I think you missed the final sentences of my post. Although, that's how they work when all sized for medium creatures, that's not how it would work for a large creature. The biggest problems will be the handle diameter and length, quillion size, and subsequent balance issues. A longsword sized for a large creature would be similar to a greatsword that a medium creature might use. However, the hand size of a large creature would be much larger resulting in a diameter and length that would not be equal to that of a greatsword. The quillions, also called the crossguard, would be oddly sized to match the hand size. These differences would cause balance issues that would make using the weapon slightly more difficult, accounting for the penalty.
An Ogre's Long Sword is not a Great Sword. It is a Large Longsword. What's the difference? In this specific case, the Large Longsword lacks the fehlchaerfe of the Zweihander. (The blunt portion at the base of the blade allowing the wielder to adjust (shorten) the grip.)
The rule works both ways. Imagine a human trying to use a halfing's rapier. Three finger grip?
There could be a million or there could be only one reason why the rules force a -2 for an 'inappropriately sized weapon'. In the end, you have to decide to leave it RAW, or House Rule that the only size issue is the actual size, regardless of who it was made for.
Can the halfling use the human sized Cuisse as a Breastplate? How much bigger can a halfling's chest be compared to a human thigh? It's just a single size increase...
(but thinking about that, that would be pretty funny. Funnier to see a goblins wearing the leg-sections as breastplates and wielding Longwords as Greatswords ;) )
GNOME
shortsword -> Longsowrd (equal medium sized shortsword, designed to be used by a medium sized character) -> Greatsword (equal large sized longsword, designed to be used by a medium sized character with two hands)
Actually, no: A short sword is quite different from a long sword: Short swords are stabbing weapons, piercing the enemy with the tip, while a long sword is designed to slash with the edge.
With this I see no reason for appling a -2 Mali if you want to create a greater version of a weapon and use it, if you're allowed to use this weapon size. Of course this only counts if the larger weapon is directly designed to be used by a creature of your size. (not if e.g. you find a Troll One-Hand sword and want to use it as a greatsword)
I would generally allow this, too. It might not be called a "large warhammer" but a "greathammer" or something, and it might not quite be an earthbreaker (they don't look quite like warhammers, at least not usually), but I would have no problem with that weapon, as a "new" martial weapon.
As long as it was created as a two-handed weapon for human-sized creatures, it's okay.
Of course, I would reserve the right to veto some things. For example, I'm not sure that an oversized short sword (i.e. a weapon the size and shape of a long sword, but built like a short sword, and to be used for stabbing) would be a good idea.
YuenglingDragon your right, thats why I said you have to adapt the "larger" version to the character, as for grip size, balance and sometimes appearance.
My point is only the stat wise system, from these I think we're on the same point.
btw: anybody knows why the earthbreaker have a *3 crit, thats hell, even with the low crit range (20) [it's like a greataxe but 2d6 instead of d12]
and one other question:
What two handed weapon should I use: Greatsword, Greataxw, Earthbreaker... I don't know :(
Greetings, fellow travellers.
The crit multiplyer, crit range and damage dies of a weapon (loosely) follow a pattern.
Most often you will have x2 and 19-20 or x2 or 18-20 if the weapon has a lower damage die for martial weapons.
With most hammers (bludgeoning weapons) you have x3 and 20. *shrug*
So, use the weapon which fits your character best - if it's about optimization I would go for the greatsword (which will also be most likely the most often encountered loot of the three).
Ruyan.
btw: anybody knows why the earthbreaker have a *3 crit, thats hell, even with the low crit range (20) [it's like a greataxe but 2d6 instead of d12]
Well, it's a two-handed martial weapon, like the greataxe. Their power level is supposed to be very close.
Look at the battleaxe and warhammer: Both one-handed martial weapons. Both do 1d8 and make x3 crits.
Don't make the error of comparing any weapon to the greatclub, which should by all rights be a simple weapon with those stats.
Compare it with the greataxe, which is quite similar.
Compare it with a greatsword. Same damage, but instead of a better crit multiplier, it has a better crit range (19-20).
If you decrease the damage to 2d4, you can have x4 crits, or 17-20 crit ranges (that's scythe and falchion, respectively).
And a lot of the time, the higher range will outperform the higher multiplier, especially if you have crit feats...
PF phb page 142-143
Battle Axe = 10gp = 1d6 (S) = 1d8 (M) = x3 Crit
Warhammer = 12gp = 1d6 (S) = 1d8 (M) = x3 Crit
Greataxe = 20gp = 1d10 (S) = 1d12 (M) = x3 crit
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Now with just the PF handbook, and if i had to guess for a Great-Warhammer i would have thought.
Greathammer = 24gp = 1d10 (S) = 1d12 (M) = x3 crit
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But then i read about
Why not just use an earthbreaker? It's a two-handed martial 2d6/x3 hammer. Pretty close to what you're trying to get mechanically and conceptually, but you don't suffer any penalties.
so i am guessing someone looked at warhammer 1d8, then looked at chart on page 145 "table 6-5: Tiny and Large weapon Damage", and got the adjustment for large 2d6. Then it got published, as a normal weapon, which means no -2 size adjustment.
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(*)= Disclaimer = I do not have any book with the Earthbreaker weapon listed in it. I am basing my understanding of the earthbraker on Ravingdorks quote. I am interested in what the small size listing for the earthbreaker damage is, since i have not seen anyone list that yet, and the gp value.
Thank you.
Earth breaker 40gp 1d10 2d6 ×3 14 lbs. B
Greetings, fellow travellers.
The Earthbreaker is listed on the PFSRD site under martial weapons/two-handed.
Sources are: Adventurer's Armory, Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide
Damage for small sized creatures is 1d10.
The cleric of Torag in my group is actually really happy with that weapon (I made it the deity's favored weapon).
Ruyan.