| 5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the errata. |
What are the actual stats of a combat-trained dog of the adventurer's armory?
Since it is a medium dog I always assumed it was like a riding dog, which cannot be riden, but recently a friend pointed out that it might be a normal dog boosted to medium size.
Which is it?
What are the actual stats of a combat-trained dog of the adventurer's armory?
Since it is a medium dog I always assumed it was like a riding dog, which cannot be riden, but recently a friend pointed out that it might be a normal dog boosted to medium size.
Which is it?
It is neither. It is just a regular dog (small) with the "Combat Trained" general purpose as per the Handle Animal skill. (Note: It is the same cost as the Core Rulebook's Guard Dog which is also a regular dog with the "Guarding" general purpose.)
It is neither. It is just a regular dog (small) with the "Combat Trained" general purpose as per the Handle Animal skill. (Note: It is the same cost as the Core Rulebook's Guard Dog which is also a regular dog with the "Guarding" general purpose.)
The rules explicitly state, that a combat-trained dog is medium size.
Thus, I do not find that answer quite satisfying.
If the entry says that the dog is medium sized then the most sensible solution is probably to use the riding dog statistics. Just because it is called a "riding" dog doesn't mean that the stats can't be used to represent dogs which aren't ridden. In fact, the descriptions in the PRD imply that the riding dog stats can be used for any large dog.
The normal dog statistics presented here describe any small dog of about 20–50 pounds in weight. They can also be used for small wild canines such as coyotes, jackals, and feral dogs.
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Larger dogs (known to Small races like halflings and gnomes as riding dogs) include hardier breeds such as huskies, mastiffs, and wolfhounds. A riding dog can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a DC 10 Ride check.
If the entry says that the dog is medium sized then the most sensible solution is probably to use the riding dog statistics. Just because it is called a "riding" dog doesn't mean that the stats can't be used to represent dogs which aren't ridden. In fact, the descriptions in the PRD imply that the riding dog stats can be used for any large dog.
The normal dog statistics presented here describe any small dog of about 20–50 pounds in weight. They can also be used for small wild canines such as coyotes, jackals, and feral dogs.
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Larger dogs (known to Small races like halflings and gnomes as riding dogs) include hardier breeds such as huskies, mastiffs, and wolfhounds. A riding dog can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a DC 10 Ride check.
I am also of that impression, however I think an official voice is needed to settle this point.
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Bump
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Was it really, REALLY necessary to post just after midnight last night and then bump it at 10:30 a.m.?
Was it really, REALLY necessary to post just after midnight last night and then bump it at 10:30 a.m.?
It really REALLY was!
I am going to sleep in 30 minutes and will probably have nightmares over this if you can't give me an answer :DOk. Maybe I am getting a tad impatient, but in all fairness I posted this same question when the AA came out and never got an answer. So now I think it might be necesary to be a bit more insistant.
Was it really, REALLY necessary to post just after midnight last night and then bump it at 10:30 a.m.?
It really REALLY was!
I am going to sleep in 30 minutes and will probably have nightmares over this if you can't give me an answer :DOk. Maybe I am getting a tad impatient, but in all fairness I posted this same question when the AA came out and never got an answer. So now I think it might be necesary to be a bit more insistant.
I have a more serious request: can we ... you know, like ... pretend Adventurer's Armory never existed ? :)
Why would we ever want to do that?
Because it was a big pile of errors on oh so many levels, and pretty much everything useful got reprinted in APG anyway.
I mostly agree.
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What are the actual stats of a combat-trained dog of the adventurer's armory?
Since it is a medium dog I always assumed it was like a riding dog, which cannot be riden, but recently a friend pointed out that it might be a normal dog boosted to medium size.
Which is it?
So are you the GM? or a Player?
If you are the GM, make a decision and go with it. If you are a player, ask your GM which one he wants to go with and abide by his decision.
The point is if a rule is not specifally address in the rules or a supplement it is up to the GM to make a ruling. That ruling is law.
At the end of the day, you can let yourself get bogged down in the minutiae of each and every aspect of the game or you can just play it and have fun.
Was it really, REALLY necessary to post just after midnight last night and then bump it at 10:30 a.m.?It really REALLY was!
I am going to sleep in 30 minutes and will probably have nightmares over this if you can't give me an answer :DOk. Maybe I am getting a tad impatient, but in all fairness I posted this same question when the AA came out and never got an answer. So now I think it might be necesary to be a bit more insistant.
Well, this time we have the FAQ system in place, so I've flagged your original question. It may not get a speedy response, but eventually it'll be added to the FAQ for the product. Of course, they are concentrating on the hardbacks for now.
At least you didn't put [Name of Paizo Employee]: Answer my question! as the thread title. I hate it when people do that, and it only makes the staff grumpy.
As for the original question, pick either dog and add the "combat training" option. I don't think it'll make much difference either way.
Errata is changing the "Dog, Combat-Trained" to "Dog, Guard," and it'll be a Small dog. The "Dog, Riding" remains Medium and the text will note that it is also a combat-trained dog.
Errata is changing the "Dog, Combat-Trained" to "Dog, Guard," and it'll be a Small dog. The "Dog, Riding" remains Medium and the text will note that it is also a combat-trained dog.
OOooo!!!!
Who on earth would buy a chihuahua guard dog? They are supposed to be big, vicious mastiffs and the like! What is the rational behind such an errata?
What are the actual stats of a combat-trained dog of the adventurer's armory?
Since it is a medium dog I always assumed it was like a riding dog, which cannot be riden, but recently a friend pointed out that it might be a normal dog boosted to medium size.
Which is it?
So are you the GM? or a Player?
If you are the GM, make a decision and go with it. If you are a player, ask your GM which one he wants to go with and abide by his decision.
The point is if a rule is not specifally address in the rules or a supplement it is up to the GM to make a ruling. That ruling is law.
At the end of the day, you can let yourself get bogged down in the minutiae of each and every aspect of the game or you can just play it and have fun.
I am aware of that and treat them as riding dogs that cannot be ridden when I run campaigns.
However I also run and play PFS games and in those situations the RAW is more important.
As the PFS boards do not concern themselves with the PRPG rules I have to post it here.
Errata is changing the "Dog, Combat-Trained" to "Dog, Guard," and it'll be a Small dog. The "Dog, Riding" remains Medium and the text will note that it is also a combat-trained dog.
Thanks for the response.
It does make the guard/combat trained dog a pretty weak option.True wardogs ridden or not will have to be riding dogs. I'd better scratch 25gp more :)
Don't see the problem here: "Small" dogs can easily be guard dogs... My Bull terrier isn't a big fella but he's a darn sight better as a guard dog than a lab/pointer/setter size mutt
Agree though that there should be a sliding scale for Small & Medium sized Combat Dogs
I think a lot of people get the wrong impression when they see "small dog". The question you have to ask yourself is: Is this dog bigger than a halfling? Is it smaller than a dwarf?
Seriously, to be a "Medium dog" you are talking Mastiff, Great Dane, or Irish Wolfhound.
I would probably say that anything that isn't on the last two columns of this Dog Size Chart would be "small" sized in Pathfinder.
Edit: Looking closer, even the second to the last column might still be "small". I kind of think a dog needs to be at least 100 lbs to be "medium".
At least in D20, "Small" tops out at 60 lbs (oddly enough, I can't find any definition of the size categories in Pathfinder; anyone else see them?).
I never noticed that part of the chart before. I personally probably would have put the border at least at 80 lbs. I also never noticed how light they think halflings and gnomes should be. You learn something new every day.
Still, the above chart is pretty handy for figuring out what size different types of dogs should be. Rottweilers are twice as heavy as halflings, who knew!
However, all logic stops when we pool wolves into the equation.
Many of the dogs that would be classified as small are at least as big as the medium-sized wolf.
I guess it was a medium (adjective) dog instead of a medium (size) dog. Sometimes I wonder if it would be easier to just use a number or letter for creature sizes.
Anyhow, PCs in search of cheap low level combat assistance can still shell out an extra 20gp for a combat trained pony. Alternately they could take ranks in Handle Animal, buy donkeys and mules for 8gp each, and spend their time training an unstoppable herd of death. That's not to mention the many dangers of donkey puns...
Wolves are pretty big, as tall as a female Great Dane and 85 lbs or so in weight. There are occasional really large wolves, bigger than a Dane, the largest I can recall in modern times was 190 lbs or so... definantly not smallHowever, all logic stops when we pool wolves into the equation.
Many of the dogs that would be classified as small are at least as big as the medium-sized wolf.
I do not doubt what you are saying, but it is hardly representative of normal wolves:
Wolf weight varies geographically; on average, European wolves may weigh 38.5 kilograms (85 lb), North American wolves 36 kilograms (79 lb), and Indian and Arabian wolves 25 kilograms (55 lb).
Weight:
Male 30–40 kilograms (66–88 lb)
Female 22–32 kilograms (49–71 lb)
How anyone would call a wolf medium and an alsatian small is completely beyond my logic.
In the Monstrous compendium, the bigger dogs are size M.
Larger dogs (known to Small races like halflings and gnomes as riding dogs) include hardier breeds such as huskies, mastiffs, and wolfhounds.
Don't get why they decided to make even more dogs given we already had two sizes in play.
In the Monstrous compendium, the bigger dogs are size M.
Larger dogs (known to Small races like halflings and gnomes as riding dogs) include hardier breeds such as huskies, mastiffs, and wolfhounds.Don't get why they decided to make even more dogs given we already had two sizes in play.
The point is that a guard dog or an attack dog should be available in the game. But 150 gp for one is outright insane. For the love of god, its even more expensive than a riding horse.
Thats why the 25gp attack dog was a good idea, but nerfing it to be the equivalent of a lap dog undermines the whole point of it.If the combat-trained dog is going to become a trained small dog, like Sean suggests, I will accept that, but it will no longer be a viable option. A small dog simply does not fit the role.
I agree with you there, it really is crazy money! 150 is a *lot* more than they should be.
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
CRB page 98.
Combat Training: An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for
combat riding takes 6 weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat by spending 3 weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal’s previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Many horses and riding dogs are trained in this way.
Bam! Riding dog stats.
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CRB page 98.
Combat Training: An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for
combat riding takes 6 weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat by spending 3 weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal’s previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Many horses and riding dogs are trained in this way.Bam! Riding dog stats.
I feel I need to clarify; I feel the errata for this is wrong. I feel that the errata decision was not made with the combat training in mind. the size is a minor issue... though a dwarf is a medium creature, as is a wolf so I think an attack dog should be too. larger size means better stats. either give us a stat block in between a riding dog and a regular small dog, or allow the riding dog stat's usage as stated in the quote above. i'm fine with a price adjustment. as long as it's not in excess of the riding dog's original cost. I suggest 45gp. (3sp/day of trained higherling Ranger to teach the dog. 9 weeks of training, as stated above plus base cost of a guard dog. rounding the result up of course.) in PFS I want a combat dog for my non-combat wizard. he can't train it himself so he has to buy it. he's a shadowcaster, so if it's a small dog there should be some stealth bonus due to the size and combat knowledge. otherwise it should be medium with maybe an intimidate bonus. A guard dog is just going to bark at everything, normally attempting to scare away enemies before real combat, and that's not what i'm looking for in a combat dog owned by a character who revels in shadow.
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Of course I agree a war dog, should indeed be medium, something like a dane or a mastiff, but I would see this as a major investment of money for a completely trained combatant dog, I could see it costing more than a riding horse.
Irish Wolf Hounds, Great Danes, and some Mastiff breeds are nearly as large as a horse. A combat dog of that size (Large) should have higher stats than a riding dog I would think; not to mention the general size increase adjustments mentioned in the bestiary appendix, if not the advanced creature template.