One of the consistent themes running through these boards is the assumed (in some minds at least) superiority of the full casting classes, particularly at higher levels, and particularly in those games where optimization is vital and/or combat dominates the game play.
Now, while I personally take the base assumption with a very large grain of salt, for the sake of this thread, I'm going to pretend I accept it at face value.
My challenge is, without breaking the core rules, how do you either bring the casters down to balance with the rest of the classes or raise the other classes?
Specifically, I'm thinking of new monsters, new magic items, new feats, new spells (I know that sounds counterintuitive, but if they are buffs that work primarily for other classes it works).
Just to throw out a few general examples:
-- Monsters that reflect spells
-- Much higher SR
-- Spells or items to buff SR
-- Monsters that radiate permanent anti-magic fields
-- Monsters that radiate permanent wild magic fields
-- Monsters with more spell immunities
-- Monsters with natural freedom of movement
-- A feat to make interrupting spells easier, or to allow one character to interrupt multiple spells in a round
-- Items that grant immunity to enchantments
-- Items that reflect or absorb ranged touch spells
-- Feats that permit non-casters to defeat battlefield control spells
Some of this stuff already exists, but my point would be that, if casters truly do rule the world, they would become more common in reaction to that.
Anyway, I'm interested in seeing what the creative minds on these boards can come up with. Who knows, maybe some of them will find their way into print eventually, or at least into people's home campaigns if the casters start getting uppity.
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Specifically, I'm thinking of new monsters, new magic items, new feats, new spells (I know that sounds counterintuitive, but if they are buffs that work primarily for other classes it works).
Instead of re-writing everything else to accommodate casters why not address the issue from the other side? All the issues with class power-ups, feats, etc are dealing with the symptoms and not the CAUSE.
-Casting: full round action
-No concentration checks - gone. Only allow it for monster SLAs
-Summon and Binding spells do not net xp for the caster, creatures summoned count against XP spread total for group. Creatures summoned by casters and get killed (used to set off traps, killed while making pies) get their xp value deducted from the casters xp. Creatures cannot make, create or give items to caster unless something of greater value is given in return (not gold. Summoned creatures will not cast spells that would harm them (Wish) unless there were some special circumstances met (players gives x2 value of item, give up extra xp, sacrfice age or health, etc)
-No stat boosters
-No feats/spells that overcome SR or boost DCs of spells or SLAs
-Spells that boost stats do not affect DCs. They affect AC, damage, Saves, temp HP, turn checks, skill checks and that’s it.
-Magic items cost XP, with possible loss of permanent attribute score. The check to create to create a greater item of power, the greater the risk - loss of life, undeath (NPC), insanity, lost of casting ability, other Lulz stuff.
-Retro spells, on a case-by-case basis go back and examine some trouble spells. It isn't a question of how powerful they are, but more their limitations. All spells in 3.5 dropped the "consequences" aspect from the spell descriptions - restore them. Haste = +1 year age, Wish = -3 Str, 2d4 days of bed rest + ages 5 years (LOL), Teleport = chance of death, and so on.
-Watch caster-only players cry, everyone else: enjoy game.
Just a few quick and easy changes, just takes minutes actually.
Edit: a few more things - these require more work and I think if the previous suggestion list is followed these would most likely not be needed. I offer them up as an alternate:
-recalculate the AC of certain creatures. Certain magical or mythical creatures can have a 1/4 of their natural AC be deflection. AC total can remain the same; just a part of it becomes deflection. Do this for dragons an the like, but not ogres. Case-by-case
Each non-caster class should be allowed a few feat options or class options to deal with magic. It seems as if these classed were all designed in a vacuum - the only martial class with some actual abilities to deal with his main foe is the pally.
-Fighters should be give the ability/feat to overcome the effects of debuffs or control every round, also attacks which hamper magic casting after hitting their target.
-Archers/Rangers w/bows should get a long ranged attack which can hamper or bring down flyers.
-Rogues, the ability/feat to potentially disrupt casting from afar. Spell sabotage if you will
-Barbarians, rage/feat that allows them to actually negate or destroy spell effects with one hit. Wall of Force :smashed, blade barrier: gone. Summoned monster - killed or turned back on the caster.
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In my current games all casters have a limited list of spells known (on a spell point system), but access to any spell from any list (adjusting up those from smaller-sized lists). IIRC the "ubercaster" type (that starts with a 20 and inexplicably gets a +5 inherent bonus and puts all their points in their stat) ends up with 13/5/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/5 on their spells known list (+1 to each from whatever "extra spells" class feature they have)*, but fatigue/exhaustion can lower the maximum number of spell points they can spend on a spell and they must spend more to be more likely to break SR. If you can hit them with fatigue followed by a creature with SR they start to have a lot of trouble.
Basics: Casters get (caster level + attribute)^2 spell points and must spend spell level * caster level points to cast them. They may choose to lower the caster level for all purposes (other than concentration) to reduce the cost, but not below the minimum for the spell. Cantrips are spell level 1/2 and cost no points *only* if they are CL0.
Result: Early level casters have very few tricks, but can use them a lot. As they level their list of tricks gets bigger, but the ones that work against the big guys can't be used that much.
To wit: A 20th level caster with a casting stat of 36 would have 1089 spell points, but would need to spend 153 to cast a 9th level spell. Much better to stick with ~6th level spells (at 66 points each at CL11) unless you hit something scary or spell resistant. For the latter you might just use a 2nd or 3rd level spell at CL20 for 40/60 points, for the former you go to your 8th/9th level spells for 120/153, if it's both you're at 160/180 each. You can drain quick on the big guys, in other words.
*This is roughly equal to that of a sorcerer, except with a lot more cantrips, one more 6th level spell and 2 more 9th level. And this is with a jacked out casting stat, which grants bonus spells known under my spell point system. With a 19 you have 7/3/3/3/3/2/2/2/2/4 + bonus.
TL;DR - I use a spell point system which generally avoids the "I can do anything" caster as an unintended consequence.
Reduce the duration of spells by a factor of 1. Days become hours, hours become minutes, minutes become rounds, rounds become half-rounds, instantaneous stays the same.
Cause permanency to only be able to be tied into locations, vice items and creatures.
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Some good stuff
I loved 5) and have used it before, is it meta-gaming for the creatures? TFB.
I think the problem is not scenario or encounter design (well, some of it is, monster design is part of the problem), but a mechanical and mathematical issue.
All caster party
-Ups DCs to max for all spells way beyond design considerations
-All spells are BF control, debuffs or SoDs: targets immediately neutralized and start to go down/weaken right away.
-Fight on one front: why have a mixed party not attacking the problem on one front? Either do 100% hp damage or 100% creature negation, not a mixture of both. The all caster party does the latter. In a limited sized party a hp damage PC actually works against the model. Why deal with hp up front, shut down an encounter and deal with hp at your leisure.
-Creatures not designed with casting as a consideration.
-HP loss has no combat effects until hp reaches 0, targets can still operate, all casters start shutting down encounters the first round (or before)
-versatility in ability and use
there are tons of ways within the game to foil casters, the simplest way to jump the party before the casters have thier spells prepared, or you push the pace of the day to something like 5-6 fairly difficult encounters and make the casters run out of spells, if they cast something that lasts minutes/rounds per use, then wait till it runs out and then attack the casters again.
Possible hindrances:
1) Constant ongoing low-level damage environment with regenerating or damage resistant guards.
2) Tumbler rooms that constantly shake with violent or extremely violent motion. High mobility agile guards or monsters.
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Don't let the 15 minute adventuring day happen.
This!
I was a big fan of reserve feats in 3.5 for just this reason. It really cuts down on people wanting to stop and rest when they can use a minor power to either heal up to half, do a little damage, or some minor annoying effect for a few rounds all day long. Rather than expend all of their high level spells, I watched my players save their spells so that they could keep their all-day powers. They could save the bigger guns for when they were really needed.
They seemed content to keep their spells as well, you don't need to cast them to participate in a fight you could still contribute to in a significant fashion.
Strangely, it also made armored casters more viable since the reserve feats were supernatural so they didn't provoke AoO nor arcane spell failure. It was pretty attractive to many of my players as a result.
Lots of stuff following his usual theme that casters always have been and always will be inherently superior to all other characters, and there is nnothing that can be done to change that
Exactly what I expected from you, MG. You are as predictable as the tides. Nice to have a few constants in the world.
FYI, there are rules for creating new monsters, feats and spells.
And your assertion that anything that can defeat casters can easily defeat anything else is a fallacy stemming from your extreme pro-caster bias. There are many, many things that I can think of that effect casters more than other characters. Just look through the other posts on the thread for some examples.
Specifically, I'm thinking of new monsters, new magic items, new feats, new spells (I know that sounds counterintuitive, but if they are buffs that work primarily for other classes it works).Instead of re-writing everything else to accommodate casters why not address the issue from the other side? All the issues with class power-ups, feats, etc are dealing with the symptoms and not the CAUSE.
-Casting: full round action
-No concentration checks - gone. Only allow it for monster SLAs
-Summon and Binding spells do not net xp for the caster, creatures summoned count against XP spread total for group. Creatures summoned by casters and get killed (used to set off traps, killed while making pies) get their xp value deducted from the casters xp. Creatures cannot make, create or give items to caster unless something of greater value is given in return (not gold. Summoned creatures will not cast spells that would harm them (Wish) unless there were some special circumstances met (players gives x2 value of item, give up extra xp, sacrfice age or health, etc)
-No stat boosters
-No feats/spells that overcome SR or boost DCs of spells or SLAs
-Spells that boost stats do not affect DCs. They affect AC, damage, Saves, temp HP, turn checks, skill checks and that’s it.
-Magic items cost XP, with possible loss of permanent attribute score. The check to create to create a greater item of power, the greater the risk - loss of life, undeath (NPC), insanity, lost of casting ability, other Lulz stuff.
-Retro spells, on a case-by-case basis go back and examine some trouble spells. It isn't a question of how powerful they are, but more their limitations. All spells in 3.5 dropped the "consequences" aspect from the spell descriptions - restore them. Haste = +1 year age, Wish = -3 Str, 2d4 days of bed rest + ages 5 years (LOL), Teleport = chance of death, and so on.-Watch caster-only players cry, everyone else: enjoy game.
Just a few quick and easy changes, just takes minutes actually.
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Many good ideas here, but I see these as tinkering more with the basic rules of the game than my suggestions. I do like the limits on uses of summoned creatures, though. I find it pretty cheesy to summon monsters to trip traps. In my mind that should have a consequence, like the gods not allowing you to summon because of your callous disregard for life, or summoned creatures refusing suicidal commands. Not RAW, obviously, but cuts down on the cheese factor.
Without creating any new rules at all...
1) All serious threats/boss fights will include spellcasters in equal proportion to those found in the players' party. The PCs do not get to be some weird exception to the spellcaster demographics of the world.
2) All well-funded lairs will be protected by hallow/unhallow, forbiddance, and permanent mage's private sanctum effects, preventing planar travel, scrying, summoning, and teleportation, and granting every defender the benefits of a protection from evil/good spell.
3) All lairs will include numerous guard animals with scent, each trained to pinpoint and indicate the locations of invisible creatures. Most lairs will include at least a few constructs and undead, which casters will need to take into account when choosing their prepared save-or-die spells, as only certain ones affect constructs and undead.
4) Traps with dispel-magic-type effects and special-purpose intelligent items designed to combat casters will be commonplace. Many will be crafted by non-spellcasting NPCs with the Master Craftsman feat.
5) Upon learning that their lair has been infiltrated, defenders will not stand and fight and will not waste time buffing themselves. Knowing that casters are the most likely perpetrators, they will immediately evacuate, taking all important treasures and prisoners with them. If the intruders remain, the defenders return 20-30 minutes later to commence hit-and-run attacks now that most minute-per-level buffs have expired.
6) All well-funded organizations will include powerful spellcasters that constantly use high-level divination effects to ask how best to defend their organization from other spellcasters, counteracting any advice their enemies could receive from divinations concerning optimal offensive tactics.
7) All powerful, intelligent outsiders that could be called by planar binding or otherwise enslaved by pesky mortal spellcasters will belong to alliances of mutual defense. In particular, if one...
This is the kind of stuff I was sort of getting at, from a different direction. If it is well-known that casters have powerful capabilities, defenses will be built taking those capabilities into account.
Wow, all these alterations to just foil the casters? I just can't do that stuff, it's pretty much straight cheating. You want to know how to stop a caster at even high level? Simple, you play like the Antagonists of...One of the consistent themes running through these boards is the assumed (in some minds at least) superiority of the full casting classes, particularly at higher levels, and particularly in those games where optimization is vital and/or combat dominates the game play.
Now, while I personally take the base assumption with a very large grain of salt, for the sake of this thread, I'm going to pretend I accept it at face value.
My challenge is, without breaking the core rules, how do you either bring the casters down to balance with the rest of the classes or raise the other classes?
Specifically, I'm thinking of new monsters, new magic items, new feats, new spells (I know that sounds counterintuitive, but if they are buffs that work primarily for other classes it works).
Just to throw out a few general examples:
-- Monsters that reflect spells
-- Much higher SR
-- Spells or items to buff SR
-- Monsters that radiate permanent anti-magic fields
-- Monsters that radiate permanent wild magic fields
-- Monsters with more spell immunities
-- Monsters with natural freedom of movement
-- A feat to make interrupting spells easier, or to allow one character to interrupt multiple spells in a round
-- Items that grant immunity to enchantments
-- Items that reflect or absorb ranged touch spells
-- Feats that permit non-casters to defeat battlefield control spellsSome of this stuff already exists, but my point would be that, if casters truly do rule the world, they would become more common in reaction to that.
Anyway, I'm interested in seeing what the creative minds on these boards can come up with. Who knows, maybe some of them will find their way into print eventually, or at least into people's home campaigns if the casters start getting uppity.
I'm not following you on the cheating thing. The rules have evolved over the editions in ways that have benefited casters tremendously. So adding new monsters, feats, items and spells created within the guidelines of the rules to counteract that trend is cheating? Just don't see it. I create new items and monsters all the time. Spells less often, and haven't created a new feat yet. How is that cheating? It strikes me as part of the grand creative tradition of the game, so long as you follow the guidelines and keep it balanced.
As to playing antagonists intelligently, that's so obvious as to be a given to me. The reason I started this thread is that the casters rule, optimization crowd will say those tactics are meaningless, as casters are so powerful they will defeat anything possible. I don't agree with that line of thought, but it is pretty prevalent on these boards.
Don't let the 15 minute adventuring day happen.This!
I was a big fan of reserve feats in 3.5 for just this reason. It really cuts down on people wanting to stop and rest when they can use a minor power to either heal up to half, do a little damage, or some minor annoying effect for a few rounds all day long. Rather than expend all of their high level spells, I watched my players save their spells so that they could keep their all-day powers. They could save the bigger guns for when they were really needed.
They seemed content to keep their spells as well, you don't need to cast them to participate in a fight you could still contribute to in a significant fashion.
Strangely, it also made armored casters more viable since the reserve feats were supernatural so they didn't provoke AoO nor arcane spell failure. It was pretty attractive to many of my players as a result.
I agree this is key. The casters rule crowd won't.
Ask for a copy of their spell list (if prepared caster) -- make them stick with it. Personally you ask me for that I don't mind cause half my slots are generally empty. Know what spells require expensive components and be sure they've got them (or not).
Grapplers are still nasty for spell casters. Mariliths do it well with their true seeing. Consider spells that the casters will use:
Dimensional Anchor, True Seeing, Greater Invisibility, Black Tentacles, Globes of Invulnerability, Protection from alignment, False Life, Blink, etc.
There are lots of monsters with these abilities at higher levels, and alignment based divine spells have a lot of "save and still suck" spells that are again pretty common.
So your party is about to loot a dragon's lair? Ok, you kill the dragon get the loot get outside... and there is the dragon -- alive and well and looking a little annoyed -- What's that? You didn't know that a dragon can contingency raise dead? Or that the Dragon would have a Clone waiting? Well then maybe you aren't as smart as you thought you were. That and a follow up True Ress from a scroll and he's back up with full spells while you are coming out with nothing because you thought the dragon was gone.
Don't think laterally -- that's for martial classes (and not a good idea then either) -- distractions cause Concentration checks -- enough of those and the caster will fail. Wind storms, deafening effects (which case spell failure!), constant minor damage from acidic fogs and what not (it doesn't even have to be a lot of damage) will cause the caster to worry about his environment and waste spells keeping himself from having to do something about it.
Inhaled poisons are great since they can be ever present and difficult to deal with (but not impossible).
Greater Spell Immunity is a great spell -- don't tailor it but get the usual suspects.
Greater Dispel Magic is nice -- Disruptive Greater Dispel Magic is much nicer. Not only do you strip off their buffs -- you also make it harder to get them back up the next round.
Don't forget that while Arcane casters get a *lot* of offensive and defensive spells that they must cast those spells for them to have an effect -- so go ahead and start out with a grappler, or fire breathing something or other -- then a lightning based monster with a lot of ranged attacks -- followed by something that simply hits areas. The caster will come up with defenses of course -- but that's another spell he's not hitting the monster with and with a variety of different monsters he'll not know exactly what he's facing in the day.
A few deaf monsters can go a long ways with enchantment spells and undead have a lot of immunities to the better debuffing spells. A roper is a mean thing to do to a caster since it deals strength damage which most mages can't take much of. Undead Ropers even more so!
Divine casters have more/better specific defenses against specific effects (poisons, curses, grappling for example) and are more likely to have specific Save and still suck spells for monsters based on alignment but again don't just have all of the same alignment present and some of that goes away.
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The basic ideas:
Give them too many things they *want* to do with their spells and resources.
Keep them fussed up -- a mage in a rush because of acid eating him, or grappling or unable to hear or on unlevel/unstable ground is going to have trouble casting and will possibly choose the wrong spells because he can't think clearly (don't force him to choose the wrong one just give him too many options for there to be a "right" one).
Vary up the challenges -- different monsters require different defenses -- having to have a lot of defenses ready to use means more spells wasted on defense (possibly defenses they won't even need!) and casting needing to be done to defend instead of attacking.
Environment goes further than just having damaging/distracting effects -- vary up the room size/shapes. A long narrow hallway limits spell choices, just like a large vast room does, and if the next room is just a little 15x15 thing he'll need still different types of spells to be effective -- too much change up and it's hard to get a good spell list for everything. Some simple Deeper Darkness spells in areas will go a long ways in screwing up higher level characters whom usually forget such basics as daylight and what not due to wanting their "bigger" and "better" spells -- nothing sucks more than being 13th level and stumbling around in the dark due to nobody having a daylight or three prepared!
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You don't need a bunch of "nerfing" or home rules to mess with casters -- just think "If I was a caster what would I not want to face/ deal with?" then put some of it out there! Keep things in flux and keep him guessing -- the fighter doesn't know what he'll face but he'll know what he's going to do -- the caster needs to know what he'll face to choose what he'll do since he's more limited on resources.
Spellcasters aren't that hard to challenge really, without ever leaving the core rules. Pathfinder did a lot with increasing the DC to cast while grappled, and if you subscribe to interpretation 1 from the Concentration Debate (which I maintain is the correct one), then disrupting them isn't too difficult if your enemies prepare for spellcasters (and in your average D&D game where magic exists and people know it, then they should prepare for it).
-- Monsters that reflect spells
-- Much higher SR
-- Spells or items to buff SR
-- Monsters that radiate permanent anti-magic fields
-- Monsters that radiate permanent wild magic fields
-- Monsters with more spell immunities
-- Monsters with natural freedom of movement
-- A feat to make interrupting spells easier, or to allow one character to interrupt multiple spells in a round
-- Items that grant immunity to enchantments
-- Items that reflect or absorb ranged touch spells
-- Feats that permit non-casters to defeat battlefield control spells
Reflecting spells is kinda meh. It's more of a dueling caster thing, so if a creature happens to have spells like spell mantle and the like, that's fine but don't overdo it or it loses its charm.
Items that buff spell resistance are underpowered for their price. I would recommend using the costs for spell resistance found here: Heroes of Alvena: Equipment for your spell resistance items. In core, spell resistance items are useless.
Monster Spell Resistance I tend to set at a the % difficulty I want and then base it on HD. So if I want a 1st level caster to succeed on a 11 or higher then they have SR 11 + HD, so it scales nicely. This is a good basis, and it's also a good method to use when advancing creatures who are supposed to have a strong SR for use at higher levels (adding +1 SR / HD).
Permanent anti-magic fields are stupid, and are a huge red-flag of you being about five different types of Bad GM. It just shows you have no idea what you're doing as a GM and have to resort to GM fiat to shut stuff down, and even then permanent antimagic fields don't stop a smart spellcaster.
Most everything on the list after that is just bad. Not just bad for spellcasters, but bad design and also much of it hurts non-casters more than it does casters. An example would be the permanent freedom of movement. Sure that shuts down some annoying spells, but it also means you can never grapple them, or slow them down, tie them up, and so forth (and even then it doesn't allow them to pass through obstacles like wall of stone or resilient sphere).
I tend to be very simple when building monsters (I keep my NPCs almost entirely core, but will advance and add HD/class levels). Spell resistance is a good one (I mentioned the process I use above), and extra hit dice (either through NPC levels or racial) tend to give monsters a decent boost in HD, BAB, and Saving Throws for the CR increase (which is usually only +1/2HD), as do feats like Iron Will, and Lightning Reflexes.
Intelligent (Int 3 or higher) monsters are can use treasures they own or are guarding, and if they have NPC levels they get their own gear according to their CR, so tacking on a Cloak of Resistance is simple enough. Likewise, intelligent monsters can use potions too, which can give them an edge on things (a troll that downs a potion of heroism or owl's wisdom for example).
Using tactical advantages with Terrain is a good idea. If the caster has no line of sight to you, or no line of effect, they gotta re-angle. Sometimes re-angling can put them into danger, or force them to waste spells blasting through barriers.
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4.) sundering - never be shy in breaking all the PC's toys. It'll be fairly difficult to break full plate - rather easy to tear robes and break staves.
This is one of my favorite tactics, actually. Destroying a wizards arcane bonded item is a surefire way of forcing them to make concentration checks in order to cast (without the benefit of combat casting either, mind you). The difficulty is in destroying such an item quickly. Something like a steel sword can be hard to sunder, but a disarm works nearly as well if you're dealing with an elf or multiclass build.
4.) sundering - never be shy in breaking all the PC's toys. It'll be fairly difficult to break full plate - rather easy to tear robes and break staves.This is one of my favorite tactics, actually. Destroying a wizards arcane bonded item is a surefire way of forcing them to make concentration checks in order to cast (without the benefit of combat casting either, mind you). The difficulty is in destroying such an item quickly. Something like a steel sword can be hard to sunder, but a disarm works nearly as well if you're dealing with an elf or multiclass build.
I think it is more difficult to find out what the item is if he is high enough to have several items. Another point is that if you can get close enough to harm the item, then you are close enough to kill the caster(wizard/sorc).
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I think it is more difficult to find out what the item is if he is high enough to have several items. Another point is that if you can get close enough to harm the item, then you are close enough to kill the caster(wizard/sorc).4.) sundering - never be shy in breaking all the PC's toys. It'll be fairly difficult to break full plate - rather easy to tear robes and break staves.This is one of my favorite tactics, actually. Destroying a wizards arcane bonded item is a surefire way of forcing them to make concentration checks in order to cast (without the benefit of combat casting either, mind you). The difficulty is in destroying such an item quickly. Something like a steel sword can be hard to sunder, but a disarm works nearly as well if you're dealing with an elf or multiclass build.
My wizard has ranks in Profession (Jeweler) and a ring on each finger. One of them is the arcane bond. None of them have magic auras thanks to the spell Magic Aura.
If you want to spend an average of 5 attacks to accomplish partially disabling them, go for it ;) Of course, the risk is that you could spend 9 attacks and get nowhere, or (conversely) spend one and get the whole shebang. I'm debating making them wear a second ring on every finger but the thumbs to improve the odds to the point of making no enemy bother. Heck, I may even switch which ring it is sometimes.EDIT: I should switch rings a lot, but always have one particular ring (that *isn't* the bonded one) be worn. That'd mess with those in it for the long haul :)
I think it is more difficult to find out what the item is if he is high enough to have several items.
Yeah, I think if I were to run a game and allow Bonded Item in (it's about the only thing I banned in my current game), I'd houserule that it's something like a DC 10 Spellcraft check to pick out a caster's arcane bond item correctly despite any attempts to conceal it.
I feel like Bonded Item is only even remotely balanced if it's a huge sleight of hand / sunder / disarm target -- otherwise it's a incredible power boost to a class that surely did not need one.
All IMHO, of course.
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I think it is more difficult to find out what the item is if he is high enough to have several items.Yeah, I think if I were to run a game and allow Bonded Item in (it's about the only thing I banned in my current game), I'd houserule that it's something like a DC 10 Spellcraft check to pick out a caster's arcane bond item correctly despite any attempts to conceal it.
I feel like Bonded Item is only even remotely balanced if it's a huge sleight of hand / sunder / disarm target -- otherwise it's a incredible power boost to a class that surely did not need one.
All IMHO, of course.
Incredible power boost?! It gives you ONE spell per day. ONE. That and the ability to enchant it (which you may very well have anyway). How is this an incredible power boost? If anything it's unnecessarily weak given the boost it gives!
Give me an argument as to why it's powerful and I might consider something based on the premise.If anything I feel it's unnecessarily strict to have the wizard require the bond at all (to cast freely, that is). I mean, a familiar has no drawback other than inconvenience if they go down.
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Why is the arcane bond so powerful? You are casting spontaneously. From a wizard's spell book. It's only one spell per day, but that one spell is going to be exactly what the party needs when you cast it.
A few ways to challenge casters of all varieties (and parties in general):
- Surprise the party with an underwater fight. Unless they prepared the right spells (which they probably didn't), being underwater means no verbal/somatic components. Doing this just once can humble a mighty caster of any variety.
- Introduce a creature that shakes the ground and everything upon it with its very step. This should be a very difficult distraction for casting, similar to stormy weather, or even worse!
- If your party is high-level enough, your BBEG might have an ellipsoid ioun stone. Those are the ones that absorb spells.
- Fighting a monster with an unusually large silence radius (Say, from an enlarged silence spell? Or enlarged twice?) is a difficult thing to do, since there's no save and the monster might be able to stick to your troublesome casters very closely. And it might also be more deadly in melee than the caster is.
- Have an interesting tactical environment and use it to the best of your advantage. An encounter with three gargoyles is not very challenging, nor very memorable. An encounter in which three gargoyles swoop in suddenly and attempt to bull-rush the party into a hazard is quite memorable, and presents much more difficulty.
- Give your party a challenge they didn't expect. Most adventurers expect combat, combat, combat. So if they suddenly have a scene where they need to keep the princess from committing suicide, trick a devil into a contract, and win a dance-off against the drow... well that should keep them on their toes, shouldn't it?
Enemies know casters are powerful and so build their lairs accordingly. They don't even have to cover their lair in antimagic fields or anything like that, there's a lot of mundane ways to mess with mages.
- Spikes in the ceiling prevent all kinds of flying intruders from being quite as moveable. Or even just low ceiling, but spiked ceiling has the option of being trapped so that defenders can release the spikes or whatever.
- Casters are more reliant on vision. Obscuring Mists is a 1st level spell that messes decently with casters (especially those lacking gust of wind), and it isn't hard to create mundane fog (smokestick defense mechanisms is extremely easy).
- Thunderstones are dirt cheap and can mess a lot with all kinds of casters. Especially when they're rigged up in groups of ten to be released by the press of a button. Even if you save on a 2+, it's a 50/50 to get hosed.
- If they can get it, wind messes a lot with both casters and archers, and there's no easy way to prevent it even by magical means. In a mountaintop stronghold, it should be easy to create wind channels that causes at least severe winds in a room. It also helps when the red dragon snores a little too much :)
- Anything that reduces mobility makes a wizard sad. Fighters and the like can survive a beating if they get stuck in place, wizards don't. Flying or teleporting wizards can make it hard, but it's not in any way impossible.
Incredible power boost?! It gives you ONE spell per day. ONE. That and the ability to enchant it (which you may very well have anyway). How is this an incredible power boost? If anything it's unnecessarily weak given the boost it gives!
Uhm, seeing as how it gives you one spell per day of the highest level you know, without having to prepare it (giving you spontaneous casting without limiting spells known) it's a very powerful ability. And being able to create a magic ring from level 1 (theoretically, if you had enough gold that is; but by level 4 or 5 you should be able to) is really nice.
The arcane bond is a really good ability. I wouldn't call it "an incredible power boost", but apart from the spells themselves, I think it's the strongest ability the wizard has (apart from diviners thingy with always acting in surprise round; that's really powerful too).
The only things that can challenge optimized casters are other optimized casters or DM asspulls. Sound advice in this thread (like the tips given by Epic Meepo) boils down to the former, the rest to the latter.
It also should be noted, that any attempt to meaningfully nerf magic will result at two-digit levels being almost-to-entirely unplayable.
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Enemies know casters are powerful and so build their lairs accordingly. They don't even have to cover their lair in antimagic fields or anything like that, there's a lot of mundane ways to mess with mages.
- Spikes in the ceiling prevent all kinds of flying intruders from being quite as moveable. Or even just low ceiling, but spiked ceiling has the option of being trapped so that defenders can release the spikes or whatever.
- Casters are more reliant on vision. Obscuring Mists is a 1st level spell that messes decently with casters (especially those lacking gust of wind), and it isn't hard to create mundane fog (smokestick defense mechanisms is extremely easy).
- Thunderstones are dirt cheap and can mess a lot with all kinds of casters. Especially when they're rigged up in groups of ten to be released by the press of a button. Even if you save on a 2+, it's a 50/50 to get hosed.- If they can get it, wind messes a lot with both casters and archers, and there's no easy way to prevent it even by magical means. In a mountaintop stronghold, it should be easy to create wind channels that causes at least severe winds in a room. It also helps when the red dragon snores a little too much :)
- Anything that reduces mobility makes a wizard sad. Fighters and the like can survive a beating if they get stuck in place, wizards don't. Flying or teleporting wizards can make it hard, but it's not in any way impossible.Uhm, seeing as how it gives you one spell per day of the highest level you know, without having to prepare it (giving you spontaneous casting without limiting spells known) it's a very powerful ability. And being able to create a magic ring from level 1 (theoretically, if you had enough gold that is; but by level 4 or 5 you should be...
Incredible power boost?! It gives you ONE spell per day. ONE. That and the ability to enchant it (which you may very well have anyway). How is this an incredible power boost? If anything it's unnecessarily weak given the boost it gives!
For the one spell per day: I point you to the "Too Awesome To Use" scenario on TVTropes. Essentially you save your one "cure-all" solution until you are either 100% sure you need it (the Godzilla scenario) or you you are 100% sure you don't and want to use it for its own sake.
This ability is consistently chosen by characters in my groups solely because its the only alternative to having a pet follow you around (which doesn't seem to be most people's style).In most cases a wizard worth their salt has 95% of possible scenarios (weighted by probability of occurrence) covered with their prepared spells already. Even if they didn't have arcane bond they'd just have a handy haversack full of scrolls and end up with the same thing (every single one of the uses of arcane bond was for a spell that was often already prepared but was needed again).
The magic ring thing is only somewhat useful. It means you can avoid a feat to make a single decent magic item that you would have likely gotten through loot (well, something of equivalent power anyway) had you not made it yourself, and on top of that it disenchants if you die and can't be given to another party member to use when you find something better. Heck, if you do make a new item into an arcane bond because it's better, it dooms that item to worthlessness.
Basically: It doesn't let you do anything you couldn't already do quite easily, but comes with the baggage of a potentially disabling weakness and a non-transferable item slot that makes you twitch even if you do have easy access to revival. No need to add anything to make it worse.
DISCLAIMER: This entire rant isn't about the ability as it stands now, but to the proposed ease of identification seen earlier in the thread. I am saying it is nowhere near powerful enough to make it a more obvious target than any other magic item would be. Anyone looking at the item through any detection spell should see it as they would any other magic item (or not see it, with the right protections). Though I will admit that Arcane Bond is, in general, one of my least favorite abilities. I'd rather have eschew materials.
there are tons of ways within the game to foil casters, the simplest way to jump the party before the casters have thier spells prepared,
Impossible past 13th level at the latest (TWO, Magnificient Mansion). Often past 9th (Plane Shift).
or you push the pace of the day to something like 5-6 fairly difficult encounters and make the casters run out of spells,
Invariably tougher on non-casters than on casters.
if they cast something that lasts minutes/rounds per use, then wait till it runs out and then attack the casters again.
Generally impossible without god-puppeting the opponents in the area - most enemies have inferior mobility and little chance of successful retreat.
Deception. Having a supposed 'ally' of the group stab the main caster in the back with a sharp thing when they are mid-cast in round 1 usually throws a hefty spanner in the works.
The casters can deal with this, easily (truthfinding spells, just for starters), non-casters can't.
Possible hindrances:1) Constant ongoing low-level damage environment with regenerating or damage resistant guards.
Casters can deal with this easily (energy reistance spells!), non-casters can't.
2) Tumbler rooms that constantly shake with violent or extremely violent motion. High mobility agile guards or monsters.
Casters can deal with this easily (flying, need only line of effect to kill stuff), non-casters can't.
And there are a lot more of suggestions in this thread, that can be answered in the same way. Because, indeed, practically any dangerous situation the DM can invent to challenge optimized casters (short of covering everything in anti-magic fields of arbitrary size), will be far harder to overcome for non-casters, and therefore only workable against a full-caster parry
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@FatR: All the reasons you listed are part of why I pushed everything to a spell point system that makes everyone cast as spontaneous and gives more power to casters early and less late* (cast 4 9th level spells and 4 8th level? Congrats, you're done. Should've made that a dozen 6th level and a dozen and a half 3rd level). Still playtesting the system, though. Maybe it doesn't pan out in the long run, but it sure seems like it will.
* Significant investment in items can heavily reduce this drawback, but at least that means they become gear dependent like the non-casters are.
TL;DR - Casters are hard to counter, so I made them less versatile and more gear dependent, but gave them a good bit more lasting power if they play smart.
I think it is more difficult to find out what the item is if he is high enough to have several items.Yeah, I think if I were to run a game and allow Bonded Item in (it's about the only thing I banned in my current game), I'd houserule that it's something like a DC 10 Spellcraft check to pick out a caster's arcane bond item correctly despite any attempts to conceal it.
I feel like Bonded Item is only even remotely balanced if it's a huge sleight of hand / sunder / disarm target -- otherwise it's a incredible power boost to a class that surely did not need one.
All IMHO, of course.
A DC 10 skill check is not even a skill check. A 3rd level character can get a 1 and pass it. If you want it to be an autopass just say the it can't be hidden. It allows one free spell, and if it can be used to shut a caster down it should have some benefit. I don't really see it as being that powerful either.
@Stabbity: It kills my suspension of belief to sunder a ring, but not harm a finger, even though it works rules wise. The magic aura is a good idea though. All my years of playing, and I never even knew that spell existed.
Why is the arcane bond so powerful? You are casting spontaneously. From a wizard's spell book. It's only one spell per day, but that one spell is going to be exactly what the party needs when you cast it.
A few ways to challenge casters of all varieties (and parties in general):
- Surprise the party with an underwater fight. Unless they prepared the right spells (which they probably didn't), being underwater means no verbal/somatic components. Doing this just once can humble a mighty caster of any variety.
Spellcasting Underwater: Casting spells while submerged can be difficult for those who cannot breathe underwater. A creature that cannot breathe water must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell underwater (this is in addition to the caster level check to successfully cast a fire spell underwater). Creatures that can breathe water are unaffected and can cast spells normally. Some spells might function differently underwater, subject to GM discretion.
Monsters that radiate permanent anti-magic fields
I'm a total enemy of this, it's like, the DM knows the PC Caster loves Fire spells, so he gave him NPCs with fire resistence.
Allow the players to show their strength is, what makes fun for them.
Why should I take this nice feat/spell/whatever if I know the DM will negate it in the next fight.
I think such a comment is also at the GMG and it's more then true.
Challenge them, but don't cripple their abilities.
Unfortunatly this is what most DMs I know do... :(
P.S.: for the above example I would ad an inscription at the wall which can be deciphered by the wizard (linguistic) and provide him with the information he needs to deactivate this field.
Maybe some mystic torches which stand in the room need to be extinguished (or something like this) of course the monster know it too, so it will do anything to defend them.
there are tons of ways within the game to foil casters, the simplest way to jump the party before the casters have thier spells prepared,Impossible past 13th level at the latest (TWO, Magnificient Mansion). Often past 9th (Plane Shift).
Note that Magnificent Mansion is a huge risk; if the enemy knows you're inside, almost any enemy at that level can frakk you over bigtime. There's only a single entrance, and while it's invisible, many enemies (even non-spellcasters) at that level can see invisible. Whether the enemy is a demon or a squad of frost giants, the enemy will have no issues covering up the entrance in such a way so that the PC's can't escape. Excactly what happens to creatures if the extradimensional space they are in if the dimensional space stops to exist and they have no way of exiting is untouched by the rules, but even if you go by the absolutely nicest thing you could do as a DM and say "you're cramped inside unhurt but can't really move", the group will have definately been "challenged" by the situation. And I wouldn't even call it the DM drawing "asspulls" if he right out killed the characters.
MM is a fantastic spell, but it's not the ultimate safe heaven it's made out to be. It takes some extra work if you want to be safe within it.
or you push the pace of the day to something like 5-6 fairly difficult encounters and make the casters run out of spells,Invariably tougher on non-casters than on casters.
How so? Wands of CLW are dirt cheap and can be used by most of the classes with minimal investment (UMD ranks or having on spell list), restoring the most precious commodity of non-casters (and in some cases, practically the only limiter). A caster can't get that back and have to use less effective spells.
It's a well-stated fact that the less fights per day, the more powerful casters become. Or any class that has lots of uses/day abilities.
if they cast something that lasts minutes/rounds per use, then wait till it runs out and then attack the casters again.
Generally impossible without god-puppeting the opponents in the area - most enemies have inferior mobility and little chance of successful retreat.
Wait, what? In what way do they generally have inferior mobility and little chance of retreat? Most higher outsiders have either a great flight speed and/or teleport or the like, most higher dragons can teleport, as can the linnorms. Sure, an iron golem won't run away, but a lot of enemies will and can. And even if you as a mage can follow them, that eats your rounds of buffing too since you can't run and cast in the same round (except for quickened spells, which generally aren't good attack spells).
Deception. Having a supposed 'ally' of the group stab the main caster in the back with a sharp thing when they are mid-cast in round 1 usually throws a hefty spanner in the works.The casters can deal with this, easily (truthfinding spells, just for starters), non-casters can't.
In some cases, I agree. It's usually easier for a caster to notice betrayers. "truthfinding spells" isn't just for starters, it's what they have (they mostly lack the skills a rogue might use for the same purpose) and those are usually quite easy to foil and don't give as much. While you can certainly detect evil, that's stopped by a simple undetectable alignment or misdirection spell or a magic item thereof, and not all NPCs would be accepting to sit in a Zone of Truth speaking about their life to people that are supposedly their allies. Not even most good or lawful people would do that.
Casters can deal with this easily (energy reistance spells!), non-casters can't.
Possible hindrances:1) Constant ongoing low-level damage environment with regenerating or damage resistant guards.
Generally, agreed.
2) Tumbler rooms that constantly shake with violent or extremely violent motion. High mobility agile guards or monsters.
Casters can deal with this easily (flying, need only line of effect to kill stuff), non-casters can't.
Most spells need both line of sight and effect, don't know what that has to do with it though. However, someone who want to make a tumbler room (in-game; I'm talking about the one who's building his stronghold) would surely outfit it with strong winds. I mean, Fly is a 3rd level spell and the obvious solution to it, so having strong winds (easy to do via magical means, sometimes easy and sometimes hard via mundane ones) is obvious. Or a low ceiling.
And casters are hurt by it FAR more than others. If a fighter swings a sword during violent motion, he swings his sword. If a wizard casts a spell, he needs to pass a (nowadays non-trivial) concentration check. If it's so hard motions that people risk falling to the ground unless passing acrobatics, the fighter will be on par with the wizard due to higher dex but also higher ACP, while the rogue will be far better than them. A cleric though, is totally hosed in that situation.
And there are a lot more of suggestions in this thread, that can be answered in the same way. Because, indeed, practically any dangerous situation the DM can invent to challenge optimized casters (short of covering everything in anti-magic fields of arbitrary size), will be far harder to overcome for non-casters, and therefore only workable against a full-caster parry
I somewhat agree. Most mundane hazards are more dangerous to mundane people than magical people, but it's not nearly as bad as you make it sound and definately not "practically any", especially when talking about challenges designed by the enemy rather than by the environment.
Also remember that a mage's resources IS limited; not only to spells/day but in the case of arcanists, also by spells known. And yes, this goes for the wizard; while it's not that hard to get the money for all spells of a given level, that's not the same as getting your hands on a scroll of them, especially if you're not in a metropolis or the like.
Incredible power boost?! It gives you ONE spell per day. ONE. That and the ability to enchant it (which you may very well have anyway). How is this an incredible power boost? If anything it's unnecessarily weak given the boost it gives!
Give me an argument as to why it's powerful and I might consider something based on the premise.
Sure:
1) The signature move of a really well-played wizard, in my opinion, is managing to come up with the key obscure spell when it counts. Someone snatches your macguffin in a crowded marketplace and the wizard has locate object ready to go. You unexpectedly have to fight in 15 feet of water and the wizard comes out with control water to lower it. Transmute rock to mud is ready at just the moment you need it, etc. Often this "right spell at the right time" can ward off what would otherwise be a sure TPK, make a very difficult fight easy, or snatch success of the party's goals from what would otherwise have been a failure.
This can be different things at different levels or in different circumstances; for example, I've seen what I would call 'key spell' moments for see invis at low levels, whereas at high levels I'd pretty much expect a wizard to just have it.
2) It's rare that a need for something fairly obscure like this comes up more than once a day.
3) The opportunity cost of being able to pull this rabbit out of the hat without Bonded Object is high, usually amounting to some significant chunk of the wizard's wealth being sunk into scrolls, and some significant chunk of the wizard's daily spell slots being sunk into some of the "contingency" spells. For the 3.X wizard players I'd call the best I've seen (which, to be clear, does not include me), probably a good 1/4 - 1/3 of their slots were consumed by spells they probably would not be able to put to good use in a given day.
So, perspective-wise, where you see 1 spell slot, I see a huge jump in spell slots and effective wealth.
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Incredible power boost?! It gives you ONE spell per day. ONE. That and the ability to enchant it (which you may very well have anyway). How is this an incredible power boost? If anything it's unnecessarily weak given the boost it gives!
Give me an argument as to why it's powerful and I might consider something based on the premise.Sure:
1) The signature move of a really well-played wizard, in my opinion, is managing to come up with the key obscure spell when it counts. Someone snatches your macguffin in a crowded marketplace and the wizard has locate object ready to go. You unexpectedly have to fight in 15 feet of water and the wizard comes out with control water to lower it. Transmute rock to mud is ready at just the moment you need it, etc. Often this "right spell at the right time" can ward off what would otherwise be a sure TPK, make a very difficult fight easy, or snatch success of the party's goals from what would otherwise have been a failure.
This can be different things at different levels or in different circumstances; for example, I've seen what I would call 'key spell' moments for see invis at low levels, whereas at high levels I'd pretty much expect a wizard to just have it.
2) It's rare that a need for something fairly obscure like this comes up more than once a day.
3) The opportunity cost of being able to pull this rabbit out of the hat without Bonded Object is high, usually amounting to some significant chunk of the wizard's wealth being sunk into scrolls, and some significant chunk of the wizard's daily spell slots being sunk into some of the "contingency" spells. For the 3.X wizard players I'd call the best I've seen (which, to be clear, does not include me), probably a good 1/4 - 1/3 of their slots were consumed by spells they probably would not be able to put to good use in a given day.
So, perspective-wise, where you see 1 spell slot, I see a huge jump in spell slots and effective wealth.
Note that the player already has to buy the scroll to have it available, and expend its use while spending extra money on top of this. If you follow RAW magic item rules they only have a 75% chance of finding a particular scroll in a town if that town even has a chance of having it at all. These "wow that'd be nice" moments are rare enough for a particular spell it's often better just to keep the scroll in scroll form and use it directly.
Also note that most utility spells of this form will be low level, meaning that the scroll is pretty cheap to just have on hand (especially since you can make extras at half price if you need to).Lastly note that my in-play example that I have never once seen the ability used for a spell the caster didn't already generally prepare, they just used it when they happened to need another use.
So where you see ace-in-the-hole, I see an item that needs extraordinary foresight and moderate coin investment to use properly that comes saddled (under the "easy to notice" suggestion seen earlier) with a giant neon sign that says "break this and I'm useless." Note that the DC of 10 given is one that even untrained characters can make 50% of the time, so even the mooks know to kill the item.
All I'm saying is that it's fine to treat it as any other magic item whose importance can be obscured in both magical and mundane manners. No need to throw a giant "kill me" sign on it as well. If you did that I can say that my players would either want to forgo the bond entirely, or take familiar since it doesn't have a drawback.
If you did that I can say that my players would either want to forgo the bond entirely, or take familiar since it doesn't have a drawback.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I'd be going for.
If you pick the option that's much stronger, you get the much bigger drawback to go with it, and anyone who's smart enough to know what a spellcaster is can recognize a bonded item.
But, again, this is what I think would work for my game and my players, and it might not be appropriate for yours. It's not unusual in one of my campaigns for all of the better players to mutually agree that none of them will play a wizard because they don't want to completely dominate play. I realize that wizard doesn't make the rest of the party superflous in everyone's games, but that's kind of the way it can go here.
Incredible power boost?! It gives you ONE spell per day. ONE. That and the ability to enchant it (which you may very well have anyway). How is this an incredible power boost? If anything it's unnecessarily weak given the boost it gives!
Give me an argument as to why it's powerful and I might consider something based on the premise.Sure:
1) The signature move of a really well-played wizard, in my opinion, is managing to come up with the key obscure spell when it counts. Someone snatches your macguffin in a crowded marketplace and the wizard has locate object ready to go. You unexpectedly have to fight in 15 feet of water and the wizard comes out with control water to lower it. Transmute rock to mud is ready at just the moment you need it, etc. Often this "right spell at the right time" can ward off what would otherwise be a sure TPK, make a very difficult fight easy, or snatch success of the party's goals from what would otherwise have been a failure.
This can be different things at different levels or in different circumstances; for example, I've seen what I would call 'key spell' moments for see invis at low levels, whereas at high levels I'd pretty much expect a wizard to just have it.
2) It's rare that a need for something fairly obscure like this comes up more than once a day.
3) The opportunity cost of being able to pull this rabbit out of the hat without Bonded Object is high, usually amounting to some significant chunk of the wizard's wealth being sunk into scrolls, and some significant chunk of the wizard's daily spell slots being sunk into some of the "contingency" spells. For the 3.X wizard players I'd call the best I've seen (which, to be clear, does not include me), probably a good 1/4 - 1/3 of their slots were consumed by spells they probably would not be able to put to good use in a given day.
So, perspective-wise, where you see 1 spell slot, I see a huge jump in spell slots and effective wealth.
Placing that much emphasis on a very unlikely occurence is over doing it. The only way the bond is that powerful is if the wizard steadily needs the unprepped spell, but if he is always that unprepared he will probably die, or the party will die, bonded item or not. Most casters that I see played well have scrolls of any spell in their spellbook, that they don't use normally, available anyway. If the spell is so useless that he forget to make a scroll of it then I doubt it is the only way to save the day.
If you did that I can say that my players would either want to forgo the bond entirely, or take familiar since it doesn't have a drawback.Yeah, that's pretty much what I'd be going for.
If you pick the option that's much stronger, you get the much bigger drawback to go with it, and anyone who's smart enough to know what a spellcaster is can recognize a bonded item.
But, again, this is what I think would work for my game and my players, and it might not be appropriate for yours. It's not unusual in one of my campaigns for all of the better players to mutually agree that none of them will play a wizard because they don't want to completely dominate play. I realize that wizard doesn't make the rest of the party superflous in everyone's games, but that's kind of the way it can go here.
A good player is normally a good player. If he can dominate play with a wizard he can probably do so with a druid or sorcerer as well. The class is not so good that it takes "average" player to "super" player.
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A good player is normally a good player. If he can dominate play with a wizard he can probably do so with a druid or sorcerer as well. The class is not so good that it takes "average" player to "super" player.
If you did that I can say that my players would either want to forgo the bond entirely, or take familiar since it doesn't have a drawback.Yeah, that's pretty much what I'd be going for.
If you pick the option that's much stronger, you get the much bigger drawback to go with it, and anyone who's smart enough to know what a spellcaster is can recognize a bonded item.
But, again, this is what I think would work for my game and my players, and it might not be appropriate for yours. It's not unusual in one of my campaigns for all of the better players to mutually agree that none of them will play a wizard because they don't want to completely dominate play. I realize that wizard doesn't make the rest of the party superflous in everyone's games, but that's kind of the way it can go here.
+1
Also, my comment about everyone taking familiar was because your "it's obvious" thing makes arcane bond terrible enough no-one would want it. They'd rather have a paper-weight. What caster in their right mind would want a "kill me first" beacon the points directly to their weak spot? Even if it does come with an extra spell.
A good player is normally a good player. If he can dominate play with a wizard he can probably do so with a druid or sorcerer as well. The class is not so good that it takes "average" player to "super" player.
No, but it is good enough to take a very good player to "everybody else who isn't a wizard watches them do the adventure."
Druid could definitely do that in 3.5; I'm not sure if it can anymore, and I'm not sure sorcerer ever could.
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A good player is normally a good player. If he can dominate play with a wizard he can probably do so with a druid or sorcerer as well. The class is not so good that it takes "average" player to "super" player.+1
+2. If a player is clever enough, no character sheet can keep that player from kicking ass.
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+2. If a player is clever enough, no character sheet can keep that player from kicking ass.A good player is normally a good player. If he can dominate play with a wizard he can probably do so with a druid or sorcerer as well. The class is not so good that it takes "average" player to "super" player.+1
I once was the most dangerous character in a party with nothing but a completely mundane stick and a very convincing tone.
Three victorious combats later and I retired that character to save my DM some headaches.
A rule that has worked well for me was simply make it so that any damage a caster takes in between turns adds up to a cumulative total. When the caster's turn comes up and he/she tries to cast, they have to make a concentration check of DC 10+Damage Taken+2*Spell Level.
Can really screw over casters that don't have meatshields/tanks to keep them safe, assuming your encounters know how to use some tactics to their fighting.