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Do spells get crit's? if so, how does it work?
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Any spell where you have to roll 'to hit', usually ranged touch attacks, critical hits can happen.
You need to roll 20 and it is double damage. Now I am sure there are feats that improve that. I am not sure right now if Improved Critcal can apply to spells or not.
Yes, any spell with an attack roll (even a touch attack) can crit.
Spells always have 20/x2 crit unless stated otherwise in the spell description.
Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a “threat,” meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt to “confirm” the critical hit—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the confirmation roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit, it doesn't need to come up 20 again.) If the confirmation roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.
Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon qualities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Increased Threat Range: Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn't result in a hit is not a threat.
Increased Critical Multiplier: Some weapons deal better than double damage on a critical hit (see Equipment).
Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. If a spell causes ability damage or drain (see Special Abilities), the damage or drain is doubled on a critical hit.
Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action.
If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.
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So since Ray spells count as a weapon, I assume you can attach Improved Critical if you really want to? Although I think it would be a waste of a feat.
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So since Ray spells count as a weapon, I assume you can attach Improved Critical if you really want to? Although I think it would be a waste of a feat.
Improved Crit specifically says it works with weapons, which spells are not.
So since Ray spells count as a weapon, I assume you can attach Improved Critical if you really want to? Although I think it would be a waste of a feat.Improved Crit specifically says it works with weapons, which spells are not.
Yes, but as you just quoted:
If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.
Really, I don't see why you can't attach Improved Critical to your ray spells. If you really want to burn the feat.
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Just because it can crit like a weapon doesn't mean it is a weapon.
Just because a platypus has a bill like a duck doesn't mean it is a duck.
Just because it can crit like a weapon doesn't mean it is a weapon.
Just because a platypus has a bill like a duck doesn't mean it is a duck.
So show in the rules where you are right.
Just because it can crit like a weapon doesn't mean it is a weapon.
Oh, I don’t know, I feel if the rules use the comparison that rays crit like a weapon it sounds like rays are treated like a weapon to me.
I'm inclined to agree with Hobbun and Name Violation. Primarily because the rules state that you can take a feat called Weapon Focus and have it apply to rays. Seems quite natural that Improved Critical can be applied to rays as well.
All that being said, Marc's suggestion is an apt one.
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you can weapon focus touch or range touch attacks, and 3.5's Complete arcane says you can take improved crit on them.
also dont forget range touch attacks benefit from point blank shot and precise shot
Weapon Focus works because it specifically says it does. Improved Crit has no such provisional text.
This isn't v3.5. Improved Crit works differently here.
Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot apply to ranged attacks (of any kind) and ONLY work on certain spells because certain spells are ALSO ranged attacks.
So show in the rules where you are right.Just because it can crit like a weapon doesn't mean it is a weapon.
Just because a platypus has a bill like a duck doesn't mean it is a duck.
Attacks made with your chosen weapon are quite deadly.
Prerequisite: Proficient with weapon, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: When using the weapon you selected, your threat range is doubled.
Special: You can gain Improved Critical multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
This effect doesn't stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.
***
So what is a weapon then?
Weapons are defined in the core rules as being any simple, martial, or exotic manufactured weapon, as well as unarmed strikes and natural attacks. I would recommend reading the Equipment and Combat chapters of the core rulebook.
I'm inclined to agree with Hobbun and Name Violation. Primarily because the rules state that you can take a feat called Weapon Focus and have it apply to rays. Seems quite natural that Improved Critical can be applied to rays as well.
All that being said, Marc's suggestion is an apt one.
Weapon Focus ONLY works becasue it specifically says it does. Improved Crit does not say it can be taken with spells, so it can't.
None of you have yet to show any RAW support for your respective positions--all you have at the moment are assumptions.
Oh, I don’t know, I feel if the rules use the comparison that rays crit like a weapon it sounds like rays are treated like a weapon to me.Just because it can crit like a weapon doesn't mean it is a weapon.
You can take improved crit. Nothing in the wording has changed from 3.5 to Pf on this, and in 3.5 you could.
As a practical matter, it is nearly moot. You need a +8 BAB to take Improved Crit. A pure wizard wouldn't be able to take it until his feat at 17th level. You could splash in enough +1 BAB classes to get it much earlier, but then your CL will be so low, you won't do as much damage, crit or not.
If someone wants to take Improved Crit(Ray) at 17th level to have less than a 10% chance (2 in 20 to threat, less than 100% to confirm, not everything can be critted) to do double damage on a touch spell, more power to them. I just can't see it ever coming up in a real game to worry about it.
You can take improved crit. Nothing in the wording has changed from 3.5 to Pf on this, and in 3.5 you could.Oh, I don’t know, I feel if the rules use the comparison that rays crit like a weapon it sounds like rays are treated like a weapon to me.Just because it can crit like a weapon doesn't mean it is a weapon.
Except you could't take it for spells in v3.5 either but for a supplament which said you could.
Complete Arcane has no bearing on Pathfinder whatsoever.
I'm just talking RAW though. It makes a perfectly fine house rule. And who knows? Maybe the Paizo staff will like idea and do what Complete Arcane did.
Melee touch +15 (1d8+9/19–20 plus
This is from a character in Kingmaker. If you can take improved crit with a touch attack which is not listed on the weapons list then it makes sense that it can also apply to ranged touch attacks.
Edit: It is from an official NPC villain, and that is a part of his official stat block. I had to state that before someone assumed I made up or adjusted a villain. If they can crit like a weapon then should be able to get feats applied like a weapon
The villain also has vital strike
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Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot apply to ranged attacks (of any kind) and ONLY work on certain spells because certain spells are ALSO ranged attacks.
By your own breakdown Precise shot could not be used with rays or spells since:
Precise Shot (Combat)
You are adept at firing ranged attacks into melee.
Prerequisite: Point-Blank Shot.
Benefit: You can shoot or throw ranged weapons at an opponent engaged in melee without taking the standard –4 penalty on your attack roll.
Personally I see nothing that does not allow me to treat rays as a weapon for the purpose of feats.
I can totally see it from RD's perspective. Here's the text for the two feats, straight from the PRD.
Weapon Focus: Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Improved Critical: Attacks made with your chosen weapon are quite deadly.
Prerequisite: Proficient with weapon, base attack bonus +8.
Apart from the italicized text, the prerequisites are virtually identical insofar as each feat requires profiency with the weapon and a minimum BAB. But there's that caveat clause in Weapon Focus that says it will work with ray spells while that clause is absent from the improved critical text.
I still think Improved Critical (Ray) should be doable, but I think RD's right in saying it's not supported by RAW.
As a practical matter, it is nearly moot. You need a +8 BAB to take Improved Crit. A pure wizard wouldn't be able to take it until his feat at 17th level. You could splash in enough +1 BAB classes to get it much earlier, but then your CL will be so low, you won't do as much damage, crit or not.
If someone wants to take Improved Crit(Ray) at 17th level to have less than a 10% chance (2 in 20 to threat, less than 100% to confirm, not everything can be critted) to do double damage on a touch spell, more power to them. I just can't see it ever coming up in a real game to worry about it.
But it is an awesome, awesome idea for Eldritch Knights who are high dex and like to throw scorching rays and contagious flames around when they crit.
This is from a character in Kingmaker. If you can take improved crit with a touch attack which is not listed on the weapons list then it makes sense that it can also apply to ranged touch attacks.
Edit: It is from an official NPC villain, and that is a part of his official stat block. I had to state that before someone assumed I made up or adjusted a villain. If they can crit like a weapon then should be able to get feats applied like a weapon
The villain also has vital strike
Is the villain using a spell? Or a natural attacks such as a lich's negative energy?
The former is NOT a weapon. The latter is.
If it was a spell that he was using, then you've proven RAI, but not RAW.
Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot apply to ranged attacks (of any kind) and ONLY work on certain spells because certain spells are ALSO ranged attacks.
By your own breakdown Precise shot could not be used with rays or spells since:
Personally I see nothing that does not allow me to treat rays as a weapon for the purpose of feats.Precise Shot (Combat)
You are adept at firing ranged attacks into melee.
Prerequisite: Point-Blank Shot.
Benefit: You can shoot or throw ranged weapons at an opponent engaged in melee without taking the standard –4 penalty on your attack roll.
Didn't catch that before. Now you guys are finally starting to get some meat in your argument.
The other point I forgot to mention is that the weapon focus should not be on rays, but on ranged touch attack and for RD---> Improved Critical (touch)
That is what it is straight from the pdf.
The other point I forgot to mention is that the weapon focus should not be on rays, but on ranged touch attack and for RD---> Improved Critical (touch)
That is what it is straight from the pdf.
I'm not convinced. You need to give me more than that.
Was it a natural attack or not?
EDIT: Never mind. It doesn't matter. Modules have been known to have mistakes.
Vital Strike was used in conjunction with Spring Attack in one, if I recall.
The other point I forgot to mention is that the weapon focus should not be on rays, but on ranged touch attack and for RD---> Improved Critical (touch)
That is what it is straight from the pdf.
I'm not convinced. You need to give me more than that.
This debate and the Warlock must have been why there was a whole section dedicated to weapon like spells in Complete Arcane.
Are you making an attack roll? Yes? It's a "weapon."
The other point I forgot to mention is that the weapon focus should not be on rays, but on ranged touch attack and for RD---> Improved Critical (touch)
That is what it is straight from the pdf.
I'm not convinced. You need to give me more than that.
Was it a natural attack or not?
EDIT: Never mind. It doesn't matter. Modules have been known to have mistakes.
Vital Strike was used in conjunction with Spring Attack in one, if I recall.
If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.
The other point I forgot to mention is that the weapon focus should not be on rays, but on ranged touch attack and for RD---> Improved Critical (touch)
That is what it is straight from the pdf.
I'm not convinced. You need to give me more than that.
Was it a natural attack or not?
EDIT: Never mind. It doesn't matter. Modules have been known to have mistakes.
Vital Strike was used in conjunction with Spring Attack in one, if I recall.
A touch attack is the type of attack it applies to no matter if it is magical or natural in nature, just like a ranged touch could be spell like ability, ray,or SU.
Happler's post shows you are not completely understanding the rule since you did not notice that precise shot did not mentioned ranged touch attacks.
The other point I forgot to mention is that the weapon focus should not be on rays, but on ranged touch attack and for RD---> Improved Critical (touch)
That is what it is straight from the pdf.
I'm not convinced. You need to give me more than that.
Was it a natural attack or not?
EDIT: Never mind. It doesn't matter. Modules have been known to have mistakes.
Vital Strike was used in conjunction with Spring Attack in one, if I recall.
A touch attack is the type of attack it applies to no matter if it is magical or natural in nature, just like a ranged touch could be spell like ability, ray,or SU.
Happler's post shows you are not completely understanding the rule since you did not notice that precise shot did not mentioned ranged touch attacks.
It's not that I'm misunderstanding things, it's just that there is a disconnect between the RAW, and the designers' RAI.
Precise Shot shouldn't work with spells either according to RAW, but the designers have made it clear that, that is not the case.
I'm sure there is a similar situation going on with Improved Crit and other feats.
Also, just because something can crit LIKE a weapon, does not make it a weapon (because EVERYTHING can crit LIKE a weapon when used as a weapon).
I'm totally right via a strict reading of the RAW. If the game designers want to change the RAW to match up with their RAI, then I recommend they do it via errata rather than these boards. Otherwise, they end up with people like me quoting RAW, and people like you quoting RAI only serving to cause confusion.
The other point I forgot to mention is that the weapon focus should not be on rays, but on ranged touch attack and for RD---> Improved Critical (touch)
That is what it is straight from the pdf.
I'm not convinced. You need to give me more than that.
Was it a natural attack or not?
EDIT: Never mind. It doesn't matter. Modules have been known to have mistakes.
Vital Strike was used in conjunction with Spring Attack in one, if I recall.
A touch attack is the type of attack it applies to no matter if it is magical or natural in nature, just like a ranged touch could be spell like ability, ray,or SU.
Happler's post shows you are not completely understanding the rule since you did not notice that precise shot did not mentioned ranged touch attacks.
It's not that I'm misunderstanding things, it's just that there is a disconnect between the RAW, and the designers' RAI.
Precise Shot shouldn't work with spells either according to RAW, but the designers have made it clear that, that is not the case.
I'm sure there is a similar situation going on with Improved Crit and other feats.
Also, just because something can crit LIKE a weapon, does not make it a weapon.
I'm totally right via a strict reading of the RAW. If the game designers want to change the RAW to match up with their RAI, then I recommend they do it via errata rather than these boards. Otherwise, they end up with people like me quoting RAW, and people like you quoting RAI only serving to cause confusion.
If they are weapon-like then they should be treated like weapons, except where otherwise stated, or strictly ruled against. I think our disagreement is on how much of a limitation "weapon-like" is.
I would honestly just put them in the weapon list with an * saying they are only granted by special abilities.
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Though I don't recall where, I believe it's been stated that Melee Touch and Ray are treated as weapons for all purposes (other than abilities that must target a weapon, since the spell can't be targeted) unless specifically stated otherwise. This means that Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, etc can all apply. You can sneak attack with them, get favored enemy bonuses, threaten (with melee touch anyway), etc.
Again, I don't remember where this was stated, but I recall seeing it and run my games with it. Since it's exceedingly difficult to get these kinds of combat feats as a caster, and not worth it to so besides, it hasn't been a problem. The worst I've seen is someone do is using something like flame blade or produce flame, and even those aren't bad. It's not like these spells are that great anyway, and those that are have a save on top of the attack roll.
FAQ'd!
FAQ'd!
Is this your way of saying you noticed this thread or we can expect an official response soon(within 48 hours)?
He means it's already FAQ'd.
Not OP's question exactly, but the FAQ says you can take Improved Critical (Ray), so therefore, you automatically can crit with them, as well.
The FAQ also says you are able to take Weapon Specialization (Ray), so apparently they 'are' also considered as weapons. And I would also assume you still need to fill the requirement of being a 4th level Fighter for Weapon Specialization (Ray).
He means it's already FAQ'd.
Not OP's question exactly, but the FAQ says you can take Improved Critical (Ray), so therefore, you automatically can crit with them, as well.
The FAQ also says you are able to take Weapon Specialization (Ray), so apparently they 'are' also considered as weapons. And I would also assume you still need to fill the requirement of being a 4th level Fighter for Weapon Specialization (Ray).
I just looked at it. Maybe I am going blind in my old age.
EDIT: I found it.
That's because the OP's question is clear from the rules. The followup questions derived from that (whether or not those feats apply to rays) could use some further explanation, thus, the FAQ entry.
That's because the OP's question is clear from the rules. The followup questions derived from that (whether or not those feats apply to rays) could use some further explanation, thus, the FAQ entry.
Oh no, I wasn't trying be critical at all. Sorry if it came across that way. Was just clarifying what the FAQ was in relation to the original post, that's all.
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FAQ'd!
I just noticed a slight error in the FAQ explanation. More precisely, the example given is not completely correct.
"it doesn't increase ability score damage (such as from ray of enfeeblement)"
Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't deal Ability Damage, rather it gives a penalty to the Ability Score (in this case, Strength). It's true that the meaning is clear enough (Weap.Spec. doesn't increase anything other than hp damage), but for the sake of precision it would be better if the text would read:
"it doesn't increase ability score damage or drain, negative levels (such as from enervation), or other damage or penalties from rays (such as from ray of enfeeblement)."
Just my 2c.
FAQ'd!I just noticed a slight error in the FAQ explanation. More precisely, the example given is not completely correct.
"it doesn't increase ability score damage (such as from ray of enfeeblement)"
Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't deal Ability Damage, rather it gives a penalty to the Ability Score (in this case, Strength). It's true that the meaning is clear enough (Weap.Spec. doesn't increase anything other than hp damage), but for the sake of precision it would be better if the text would read:
"it doesn't increase ability score damage or drain, negative levels (such as from enervation), or other damage or penalties from rays (such as from ray of enfeeblement)."
Just my 2c.
In a related question what is the difference between ability damage and ability drain other than drain being permanent? They both affect relevant skills and statistics.
In a related question what is the difference between ability damage and ability drain other than drain being permanent? They both affect relevant skills and statistics.
Drain actually reduces your score in the stat. Damage simply gives a penalty and could render you unconcious or dead (Con damage).
Damage doesn't prevent spell usage, while drain can.
In a related question what is the difference between ability damage and ability drain other than drain being permanent? They both affect relevant skills and statistics.Drain actually reduces your score in the stat. Damage simply gives a penalty and could render you unconcious or dead (Con damage).
Damage doesn't prevent spell usage, while drain can.
So if you don't cast spells it does not really matter if you have access to restoration, and the money to get rid of it.
I am basically asking what mechanical difference does it make. The spellcasting was a good answer. Anything else that gets affected?|
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In a related question what is the difference between ability damage and ability drain other than drain being permanent? They both affect relevant skills and statistics.Drain actually reduces your score in the stat. Damage simply gives a penalty and could render you unconcious or dead (Con damage).
Damage doesn't prevent spell usage, while drain can.
So if you don't cast spells it does not really matter if you have access to restoration, and the money to get rid of it.
I am basically asking what mechanical difference does it make. The spellcasting was a good answer. Anything else that gets affected?
Drain can also stop feats that have ability requirements from working, or reduce uses/day of abilities, lower special ability DCs (rather than just spell DCs), reduce contribution to monk and/or duelist AC, and a host of other things based on ability scores that aren't explicitly called out by ability damage.
You can't naturally recover from ability drain.
Drain can also stop feats that have ability requirements from working, or reduce uses/day of abilities, lower special ability DCs (rather than just spell DCs), reduce contribution to monk and/or duelist AC, and a host of other things based on ability scores that aren't explicitly called out by ability damage.In a related question what is the difference between ability damage and ability drain other than drain being permanent? They both affect relevant skills and statistics.Drain actually reduces your score in the stat. Damage simply gives a penalty and could render you unconcious or dead (Con damage).
Damage doesn't prevent spell usage, while drain can.
So if you don't cast spells it does not really matter if you have access to restoration, and the money to get rid of it.
I am basically asking what mechanical difference does it make. The spellcasting was a good answer. Anything else that gets affected?
The word statistics is kind of vague when the entire game is built on them. Thanks for the list though. I knew there was a difference, but I had been treating it like the 3.5 version because I could find differences specifically spelled out, other than the fact that ability drain was permanent.
edit:corrected typo
Also drain can kill were as most damage is simply more penalties or unconciousness. Drain not only offers the penalties but actual lowers the score meaning less of anything that score affects (skill points, Hit points, etc). A fighter with combat expertise and Int of 13 that takes 1 point of Int drain can no longer use combat expertise (and strength under 13 for power attack, etc).
Ki points would be reduced on wisdom drain, channel energy would be reduced on charisma drain -- rounds of rage/bardic performance/etc would be lost on con/cha drain.
It should be noted that I don't thing that energy drain (as in negative levels) have these effects -- negative levels simply impose a penalty -- but can kill you.
Also drain can kill were as most damage is simply more penalties or unconciousness. Drain not only offers the penalties but actual lowers the score meaning less of anything that score affects (skill points, Hit points, etc). A fighter with combat expertise and Int of 13 that takes 1 point of Int drain can no longer use combat expertise (and strength under 13 for power attack, etc).
Ki points would be reduced on wisdom drain, channel energy would be reduced on charisma drain -- rounds of rage/bardic performance/etc would be lost on con/cha drain.
It should be noted that I don't thing that energy drain (as in negative levels) have these effects -- negative levels simply impose a penalty -- but can kill you.
Con damage kills, but is is the only one.
Con damage kills, but is is the only one.Also drain can kill were as most damage is simply more penalties or unconciousness. Drain not only offers the penalties but actual lowers the score meaning less of anything that score affects (skill points, Hit points, etc). A fighter with combat expertise and Int of 13 that takes 1 point of Int drain can no longer use combat expertise (and strength under 13 for power attack, etc).
Ki points would be reduced on wisdom drain, channel energy would be reduced on charisma drain -- rounds of rage/bardic performance/etc would be lost on con/cha drain.
It should be noted that I don't thing that energy drain (as in negative levels) have these effects -- negative levels simply impose a penalty -- but can kill you.
Again the difference between drain and damage -- I stated drain kills -- and it does, since you can't have a PC with a stat of 0. Damage doesn't actually reduce the stat and will heal (provided something doesn't kill you first) -- drain actually reduces the stat and doesn't heal. If you are drained of all your stat you are effectively dead -- this isn't like simply not having a score (like undead) your score is 0.
Again the difference between drain and damage -- I stated drain kills -- and it does, since you can't have a PC with a stat of 0. Damage doesn't actually reduce the stat and will heal (provided something doesn't kill you first) -- drain actually reduces the stat and doesn't heal. If you are drained of all your stat you are effectively dead -- this isn't like simply not having a score (like undead) your score is 0.Con damage kills, but is is the only one.Also drain can kill were as most damage is simply more penalties or unconciousness. Drain not only offers the penalties but actual lowers the score meaning less of anything that score affects (skill points, Hit points, etc). A fighter with combat expertise and Int of 13 that takes 1 point of Int drain can no longer use combat expertise (and strength under 13 for power attack, etc).
Ki points would be reduced on wisdom drain, channel energy would be reduced on charisma drain -- rounds of rage/bardic performance/etc would be lost on con/cha drain.
It should be noted that I don't thing that energy drain (as in negative levels) have these effects -- negative levels simply impose a penalty -- but can kill you.
PRD:Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die.Then it goes on to say
Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.
We know ability drain can't be healed with lesser restoration so it can't be talking about drain.
Later(singled out)-->Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.
edit:changed some things.
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FAQ'd!
I hate to necro an old thread but would that be weapon spec(ranged touch), instead of ray?