The summoner has multiple ways to go about being played. All of them are valid with each having different perks and drawbacks.
Creative Director
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Summoners are Charisma-heavy in the exact same way that Bards are Charisma-heavy. Which is to say, they're not.
You need a little charisma, but you don't need a lot. Not like a sorcerer does.
I actually quite disagree. Having a high Charisma for a bard gets you not only bonus spells... but it boosts a LOT of your skills, including your most important skill: Perform.
Not as important for summoners, though, I agree. Hardly a dump stat. I would say that the best dump stat for a summoner would actually be Intelligence. High INT for a summoner is really only good for roleplay reasons, I guess. Sure, it gets you more skill points, but you've got an eidolon so you have more skills at your disposal for free, basically, as it stands.
So correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd love to play this class with an Int or Wis base and be able to knock my Cha down to nothing so I can be better at more of the skills I get and be better able to melee focus so I can work with the eidolon in combat.
Well, sure. And I'd love for my wizard to be able to cast off Con.
Having some need for a stat that probably normally wouldn't be your first choice is part of the balance of the class. That, and Paizo seems pretty well ensconced into spontaneous casting = Charisma, which I tend to agree with.
And honestly... if you're having a tough time picking a dump stat, that's a good thing, I think. That means that the desire to have good stats across the board is working as intended.
Clearly, Bestiary II needs a dire dread wraith that attacks Charisma... and maybe one for Intelligence.
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Creative Director
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Clearly, Bestiary II needs a dire dread wraith that attacks Charisma... and maybe one for Intelligence.And honestly... if you're having a tough time picking a dump stat, that's a good thing, I think. That means that the desire to have good stats across the board is working as intended.
Actually... things that drain Intelligence are kinda sketchy. Because that's an easy way to take out animals. Even BIG animals. Like dinosaurs. Eew.
Of course, that wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for the silly restriction on animals having an Int of 1 or 2 only.
Actually... things that drain Intelligence are kinda sketchy. Because that's an easy way to take out animals. Even BIG animals. Like dinosaurs. Eew.
Maybe it can only prey upon sentient creatures or humanoids for some reason? Sort of like the versions of vampires in some games/mythologies that need specifically human blood.
Actually... things that drain Intelligence are kinda sketchy. Because that's an easy way to take out animals. Even BIG animals. Like dinosaurs. Eew.Clearly, Bestiary II needs a dire dread wraith that attacks Charisma... and maybe one for Intelligence.And honestly... if you're having a tough time picking a dump stat, that's a good thing, I think. That means that the desire to have good stats across the board is working as intended.
I'm having sudden images of a purple dinosaur......
Summoners are Charisma-heavy in the exact same way that Bards are Charisma-heavy. Which is to say, they're not.
You need a little charisma, but you don't need a lot. Not like a sorcerer does.
I actually quite disagree. Having a high Charisma for a bard gets you not only bonus spells... but it boosts a LOT of your skills, including your most important skill: Perform.
I actually quite disagree. Perform is not an important skill.
I actually quite disagree. Perform is not an important skill.Summoners are Charisma-heavy in the exact same way that Bards are Charisma-heavy. Which is to say, they're not.
You need a little charisma, but you don't need a lot. Not like a sorcerer does.
I actually quite disagree. Having a high Charisma for a bard gets you not only bonus spells... but it boosts a LOT of your skills, including your most important skill: Perform.
It is when it raises two other skills along with it, from Acrobatics and Fly to Diplomacy and Sense Motive, Perform for a Bard has a variety of three-for-one deals thanks to Versatile Performer.
It is when it raises two other skills along with it, from Acrobatics and Fly to Diplomacy and Sense Motive, Perform for a Bard has a variety of three-for-one deals thanks to Versatile Performer.I actually quite disagree. Perform is not an important skill.Summoners are Charisma-heavy in the exact same way that Bards are Charisma-heavy. Which is to say, they're not.
You need a little charisma, but you don't need a lot. Not like a sorcerer does.
I actually quite disagree. Having a high Charisma for a bard gets you not only bonus spells... but it boosts a LOT of your skills, including your most important skill: Perform.
Most of which goes away if you use any bard archtype.
You can start with 12 Chr for Summoner and you every 4 level stat boosts will get you the right Chr to cast you highest levels spells right up to 6th level spells which are you highest. Not a bad idea in my opinion as option.
And honestly... if you're having a tough time picking a dump stat, that's a good thing, I think. That means that the desire to have good stats across the board is working as intended.
Obvious "dump stats" are kinda lame.
I realize this kind of thing is sensitive with the RAW crowd, but by my lights roleplaying NPC reactions (without rolling dice) is well within the limits of GM fiat. In fact, I think it is an essential part of good GMing. If you pick a character who is malodorous and shockingly ugly, or who wears pleated pants or is otherwise utterly rebarbative, the world will take notice. You aren't getting away with a 5 Charisma thinking everything will be fine if you just stand in the back and keep your mouth shut in every social situation.
[...] but you've got an eidolon so you have more skills at your disposal for free, basically, as it stands.
Could someone explain this to me? Can the summner use the eidolon skills/skill ranks?
[...] but you've got an eidolon so you have more skills at your disposal for free, basically, as it stands.Could someone explain this to me? Can the summner use the eidolon skills/skill ranks?
No, but together they have more skills than normal. So you don't need high Int.
I would say that the best dump stat for a summoner would actually be Intelligence. High INT for a summoner is really only good for roleplay reasons, I guess. Sure, it gets you more skill points, but you've got an eidolon so you have more skills at your disposal for free, basically, as it stands.I disagree. It depends upon your build.
You can make a support casting based summoner dumping STR (and WIS), using traits (if allowed) to pick up a few CHA skills, the INT to max a few CHA skills, then a very high CHA to go to town with them (literally).
Summoners get a nice selection of conjuration spells with saves on them (Grease, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, the pit spells) as well as a few others that are really save dependent (Charm Monster & Magic Jar).[...]
-James
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I say Charsima is probably more important to a summoner than to a Bard.The bard uses skills, performance, spells and his weapon. Melee or archer. So the bard needs str if he goes the melee route and dex if he wants to be an archer.
If you are a Summoner your summons and your Eidolon are your weapons and the summoner's spell list is just fantastic.
Haste, slow, see invisibility, phantom steed, dimension door, invisibility (greater), etc. etc. all one spell level lower than the Bard. They got some of the best conjuration spells in the game.
SM1 - SMIX, Grease, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, Black tentacles, Creeping Doom, Incendiary Cloud.
And all the other useful buff spells the bard lack: Protection from evil, Shield, Enlarge person, Resist Energy, Fly, Protection from energy, Bull’s strength, Barkskin, Spider climb, Magic circle against evil, Greater Magic Fang, Stoneskin, Teleport and Teleport (greater), overland flight, Wall of stone.
The fact that The summoner doesn't need weapons and doesn't use a shield let's him use rods. Like quicken spell.
With Use Magic Device as a class skill he can even cast Bard spells like Good Hope or Versatile Weapon.
Charisma, Con and some int. Perhaps som dex as well.
The summoner is much more of a spellcaster than the bard will ever be.
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Right. Extra spells are HUGE. And while few spells have saves, Slow, Glitterdust, and Grease are all excellent staples that do provide a save. More importantly, what else do you really need? Your feats should be ties up in decent combat maneuvers (lookout anyone?) or things to improve summons (Augment Summon + Summon Eidilon spell = win) and for the standard netting half-elf a decent dex will do. As to diplomacy, there are tons of traits that will make this a class skill for you, and UMD is the 3rd best skill in the game after Perception and Acrobatics.
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There are several different things you can do with Summoners. Some of these do not allow one to 'dump' Charisma. One of my PCs in PFS is a summoner who, through traits, serves the role of a party face and support caster. This means that Charisma is important for skills (Diplomacy, Bluff), for having more spells (Buffing as a role is better when you can do it as much as possible), and so that what battlefield control spells he does get (Create Pit Series, Black Tentacles, etc.) have the best DCs possible. It's also a nice plus that he can Summon Monster 7+ times a day, meaning he will always have something to do his fighting for him or otherwise help with crowd control.
All of the above is made possible by a high Charisma (18). I've yet to really want for any other stat and gave him a low Strength score because he's never intended to be in melee. And the build works. My faction missions (a PFS bit) are often based around social skills, it is something that's often lacking at tables, his spells/summons are plentiful and play a good support role, and playing smart on on positioning as well as hit points has made him survivable. My role isn't to do damage, it's to make everyone else do more. The Eidolon can take care of any actual DPS output I'm trying to achieve.
This isn't the only way to build a summoner. I imagine Ultimate Magic will give us several more possibilities. It may be more accurate to say that "in some Summoner builds, Charisma is not as important" than "I wish Charisma could be an easy dump stat for Summoners because I don't think it's that important to the class as a whole".
Most of which goes away if you use any bard archtype.It is when it raises two other skills along with it, from Acrobatics and Fly to Diplomacy and Sense Motive, Perform for a Bard has a variety of three-for-one deals thanks to Versatile Performer.I actually quite disagree. Perform is not an important skill.Summoners are Charisma-heavy in the exact same way that Bards are Charisma-heavy. Which is to say, they're not.
You need a little charisma, but you don't need a lot. Not like a sorcerer does.
I actually quite disagree. Having a high Charisma for a bard gets you not only bonus spells... but it boosts a LOT of your skills, including your most important skill: Perform.
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"three-for-one deals" that's just rhetoric, also Versatile Performer is good at level 2, but sucks at level 10.I don 't want to thrash this thread anymore with Bard talk. So I use a spoiler.
If you like to chat some more just create a new thread and post a link. No need to trash this bar. It's better to take it to the stage.
Versatile Performer is nice at level 2, not so nice at level 6 and totally useless at level 10, 14 and 18.
As for Acrobatics and Fly most bard are going to have at least 13 dex and Archer bards are in fact going to have higher dex than char. Fly? The bard doesn't even have fly on their spell list so how often are they going to use fly?
Having a high Charisma for a bard gets you not only bonus spells... but it boosts a LOT of your skills, including your most important skill: Perform.
So perform is important? The only bardic performance where you need ranks in perform are
Countersong that relies on audible components and Distraction that relies on visual components. Both of these are highly circumstantial. Let me quote Treantmonk's Guide to Pathfinder Bards:
Countersong: Unless you KNOW that a language or sonic dependant attack is coming the way of you or your allies, I just can't see ever having this up. It's way too circumstantial for an ability with a rounds/day duration.
Distraction: If you read my reason why Countersong isn't great, you will see how it also relates to this ability, that requires you to KNOW that a vision dependant spell effect is coming. If you do know, then it's useful, but that is going to be a rare circumstance, potentially never through an entire campaign.
So let's say you stupid enough to max out two performance skills, one that relies on visual components and one that relies on audible components, just so you can use Countersong and Distraction. This means Versatile Performer will be useful at level 2 and at level 6. But it will still be totally useless at level 10, 14 and 18.
Are you going to wait 6 levels until you invest in a skill that you are going to use? Are you going to wait 10 levels? If the answer is yes, you probably don't need that skill, if the answer is no you have just been robbed of ALL the skill ranks you have invested in that skill. Now, perhaps some players want to have ranks in at least two perform skills, but you don't really need it. Versatile Performer at level 2 is fine and at level 6 it might be good, but at level 10, 14 and 18. Please. Who is going to wait 10 or 18 levels until he/she starts using or investing in a skill?So let's say that perform is indeed of some importance. Does that mean the charisma score have to be high? The bard have two main choices: melee or archery. Melee, boost your Str high and add some dex and con. Archer, boost your Dex high and add some con and str. In both examples char is not your main stat. Even if you did choose to boost your char high it would not make a big difference in regard to spells, skills or other abilities based on charisma. Why? At every 4:th level you are going to boost Str if you play melee bard or dex if you play Archer bard. Starting with a high Char score would however mean you would have less ability point left to other ability scores. Boosting you charisma in order to boost your perform skill is just silly. It's like saying: "if you boost your charisma and dump your dex you will find that Versatile Performer is really good". But why should I dump my dex? Is char 16 or 18 so much better than char 14? I say no. Because most charisma skills are class skills you don't need a high charisma score. If I want skills I rather boost Intelligence so my bard get more skills per level, more languages known, better Int based skills.
Shall I boost char because I'm a spell caster? I say no. The bard is no spell caster, not like the Sorcerer or the Oracle. Hell even the Summoner gets better spells and at lower levels. So the bard SHOULD not focus on being a spell caster.
"Having a high Charisma for a bard gets you not only bonus spells"
Bard only have 6 spell levels and it has already been established most players and GMs prefer games at level 2 - 12 and a lot of AP doesn't even run as high as level 17. Me, I can't see ANY reason playing a bard higher than level 14 or even 13. From that point on I would multiclass.
So let's talk bonus spells. The most important spell levels are 2, 3 and perhaps 4. Me I say level 3 spells are the ones that really matters.
At 2:nd spell level you get stuff like Blur, Calm Emotions, CMW, Glitter dust, Heroism, Invisibility , Mirror Image and Silence
At 3:rd you get Confusion, Good Hope, Fear, Haste, Phantom Steed, Slow, Tiny Hut.
At 4:th you get Dimension Door. I guess Freedom of Movement and Greater Invisibility might be nice, but with the exception of Dimension Door all the really good spells are lower level spells.
So a charisma score of 16 at level 7 and a charisma score of 18 at level 10 you are good. That means a you can start with a charisma score of 14 (or even 13) and just add items to boost you charisma. At level 7 you get level 3 spells. By then you should already have a +2 charisma item and at level 10 you should at least have a +4 charisma item.
A wizard, Witch and Sorcerer can start with a casting stat of 18, 19 or even 20. Heck even a Oracle, Druid or Cleric can start with a high casting stat. Why? They are all full casting classes. Bards are not.
Bards can't use feats like quicken spell and since they use weapons and possibly a shield rods are not an option. They are not casters, they are Jack of all trades. Go melee - have fun. Go archery - have fun. Go caster - have a bore.
Someone once said something like this: The problem with the bard is, "what do I do this round? I cast a spell". Level 1 - 6 you have you have to same problem with Bardic performance. Starting a performance or casting a spell or hitting something in the head with your stick are all standard actions. Looking at the bard spell list he has very few good spells with a long duration. In fact he has very few spells at all with a long duration. This means he has to cast spells in battle or just before battle. If you are lucky you have a scout in the party or a spellcaster with arcane eye so you can buff before combat. A lot of the time you are not lucky.
If you want to play a class that focus on spellcasting don't go bard. The Bard is so much more. Boosting you charisma because of spells is not the way to go. You don't have that many spells per day; Your spell list isn't good enough; You don't have enough spells known; the DC will never be good enough; the spell progression suck.
Boost you charisma so you can cast Haste and Glitterdust? You might as well play a Summoner.
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Speaking of spells and the Summoner. Let's talk about the Bard and his spells vs. The Summoner and his spells.
All during the Beta-test I was screaming my head off, why do bards get See Invisibility as a 3:rd level spell? Why don't they get more spells known? Why don't they get spells like Mage armor, Bull's strength, Resist Energy, Fly, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Stoneskin, Teleport, etc.
To me the bard is mostly about Divination/Knowledge; Enchantmenet/Charm; Buffing and debuffing (by buffing I also mean protective spells); Trickery and Illusion. He is not the one who cast fireball. He travels the world looking for new tales and new mysteries. Obviously the bard is a bit of a warrior as well and he is also the utility man.
Divination/Knowledge: Now, why wouldn't this class get See Invisibility as a 2:nd level spell?
The buffer: Why shouldn't he have Bull's strength on the list or Stoneskin or Mage Armor or Magic Vestment?
Why shouldn't this traveler and utility man have Teleport, Fly and Greater Magic Weapon on the list? And when all spell casting classes in the core book have Resist Energy on their list, why shouldn't the bard who have spells from both the divine and arcane spells have it? Well, too late now. Things won't change.
When I looked at the summoner's spell list, it actually made me angry. Not only does it get "See invisibility" as a 2:nd level spell, but he gets all the spells I've been campaigning the bard should have (Barkskin instead of Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Fang instead of Greater Magic Weapon). As if this wasn't enough, the summoner get a lot of the best bard spells at a lower level.
Bard, the master of buffs, get haste as a 3:rd level spell. The summoner get's it as a 2:nd level spell. Same thing with Slow, Phantom steed, Dimension door, Greater invisibility, one spell level lower than the bard.
Not to mention the fact that the Summoner gets spells like Protection from evil, Shield, Enlarge person, Bull’s strength, Barkskin, Spider climb, Fly, Protection from energy, Magic circle against evil, Stoneskin, Teleport and Teleport (greater), overland flight, Wall of stone, Creeping doom. ...and Black tentacles as a 3:rd level spell.
Boost you Bard's charisma so you get bonus spells or use perform. Sorry I don't agree.
All this said, I now play a Arcane Duelist with these stats: Str: 15, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 7, Char 16.
Did I start with 16 char because it was the best way to build a bard? No, I did it because it fit my character. But I will boost Str at level 4 and every 4th lever after.
Right. Extra spells are HUGE.
But not as huge as they are for full casters. Why? Because full casters get more extra spells per point of primary casting stat. Why? Look at the extra spells for high stat chart: the more levels of spells you can cast, the more bonus spells you get. If you can only cast 4 levels of spells, you can get at most 1 extra spell per casting stat increase. If you can cast 6 levels of spells, you can get 2. If you can cast 9 levels of spells, you can get 3.
In addition, extra spells per day are most valuable for prepared casters, rather than spontaneous casters. Adding an extra spell per day for prepared casters allows them to be more versatile and increases their durability. Adding an extra spell per day for a spontaneous caster does nothing for their versatility, just their durability.
Charisma is a leave-at-16 stat for most Summoner builds.
Right. Extra spells are HUGE.But not as huge as they are for full casters. Why? Because full casters get more extra spells per point of primary casting stat. Why? Look at the extra spells for high stat chart: the more levels of spells you can cast, the more bonus spells you get. If you can only cast 4 levels of spells, you can get at most 1 extra spell per casting stat increase. If you can cast 6 levels of spells, you can get 2. If you can cast 9 levels of spells, you can get 3.
True but summoners spells like haste as a 2:nd level spell. This means once you reach char 22 you have 2 more haste per day.
Same thiong with 3:rd spell level. Char 24 and you get 2 more black tentacles, or stoneskin or invisibility (greater) per day.
In addition, extra spells per day are most valuable for prepared casters, rather than spontaneous casters. Adding an extra spell per day for prepared casters allows them to be more versatile and increases their durability. Adding an extra spell per day for a spontaneous caster does nothing for their versatility, just their durability.
More spells per day isn't bad. Not with this spell list.
Charisma is a leave-at-16 stat for most Summoner builds.
Perhaps. A summoner will get more out of a high char score than a bard.
What else is the summoner going to boost? Str and go melee? Dex and pretend his is a bard?
No, Summoners do not get more out of a high Cha than Bards do. Bards actually have a wide variety of good effects with saving throws. Summoners do not. That alone makes Charisma a more viable stat for Bards -- and it's still recommended to keep it in the 16-20 range for most Bards.
As for your question: yes, either of those (Str for melee or Dex for ranged) are viable and a better idea in general that going SAD on Charisma.
Isn't it a fair amount harder to have competitive DCs for spells as a Summoner? I mean, once you reach 3rd level spells you're 1 DC behind the curve, and every other spell level you're 1 more behind. By 6th level spells you're 3 behind on your DCs.
I agree that the Summoner is one of those classes that most builds will leave the charisma at 16.
In my opinion, what most support summoners should boost is CON. More hit points to feed your Eidolon and a higher fort save. In order to ensure you both are active through the punishment, grab endurance and diehard if it's PFRPG books only. If you can use 3.5, get Shape Soulmeld: Rageclaws.
Isn't it a fair amount harder to have competitive DCs for spells as a Summoner? I mean, once you reach 3rd level spells you're 1 DC behind the curve, and every other spell level you're 1 more behind. By 6th level spells you're 3 behind on your DCs.
Yes, and it's actually even worse than that, because the early entry on spells actually hurts the Summoner here by decreasing the base DC even more over the "standard" version of the spell.
Actually... things that drain Intelligence are kinda sketchy. Because that's an easy way to take out animals. Even BIG animals. Like dinosaurs. Eew.
Aaand there we have a flashback to ray of stupidity that killed most of Tides of Dread...
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My build (PFS):
Half-Elf Summoner (the half-elf buff is too good to pass up on summoners)
Str: 7 int: 12 wis: 12 dex: 14 con: 14 chr: 18
I took net proficiency from half-elf as my "non-casting thing to do". No feat-eating (seriously, a feat-based light armored caster does not do well on the line, and everyone suffers when you try). UMD monkey.
I could trade Cha for a 16 or even 18 Dex, but what would that let me do? Plunk with a crossbow? +2 to hit / ac with net? I'd rather acts the party's face (traits) and have the extra spells. I have grease now, will get Slow, so saves will be done. And as stared, between haste, slow, and lesser evolution surge you can't get enough 2nd level spells.
Would you rather a bard/summoner throw a haste or fire off a few attacks?
False dichotomy. He can do both: haste in the first round and attack afterwards. Furthermore, a Summoner with 16 Charisma and a Summoner with 21 Charisma have exactly the same number of hastes per day, assuming they're the same level. You have to go to 22 Charisma to get one extra haste per day, at which point you're going to be a minimum of 8th level and will have enough 2nd level spells per day (5) to cast it every important combat and still have spells left over anyway. Is buying Charisma to 18 and spending both level up points on it worth that? I do not believe it is at all.
EDIT:
So this is a bit disingenuous. Also by the time you have a 28 casting stat an extra 1st level spell is not really a swinging point now is it?
Who's being disingenuous here? Let's go a bit earlier than 28, how 'bout it? Stat 24 -- a Wizard gets a bonus 7th level spell and a bonus 3rd level spell. The Summoner? 3rd (with an occasional should-be-4th level spell). Stat 26? Wizard gets an 8th and a 4th, Summoner gets 4th or should-be-5th. Actually, hell, 28? Wizard gets a 9th, a 5th, AND a 1st. Summoner? 5th or should-be-6th and 1st.
The difference isn't the lower-level spells. The difference is the HIGHER level spells. The Summoner always loses out on higher-level spells compared to a full caster.
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Yeh, but by the same token are you really going to burn tons of feats to be a low-AC poor-save front line? Or an archer (undumping Str to get 13 and maxing dex)? I would think not. Netting is a fine default action; as is "daze" during low levels. Eventually Cha lets you UMD the wands in your spare time. Regardless, after say level 6 "Shoot the bow" is a fairly silly option for the summoner even if you have been a human with point blank / precise / rapid / deadly aim.
I do agree the stat benefitsthe high-level controller more; but it is still the most useful stat in the summoner's aresonal.
You don't need to burn "tons of feats" to be a decent melee character. And it's not like the Summoner has a lot of useful feats to take, anyway. You have virtually no saves, so Spell Focus isn't terribly useful. You have virtually no offensive spells, so Spell Penetration isn't terribly useful. You have very few spell levels to work with, so Metamagic feats aren't terribly useful (except perhaps Extend Spell). You can take the item crafting feats, but anybody in the party can take and use the two most important ones (Arms and Armor and Wondrous Items). What does that really leave you with as far as must-have feats?
Furthermore, by going melee, you're able to concentrate your spells known, because the Eidolon is pretty much always going to also need those same buffs.
Also, the UMD is a non-starter. A 16 Charisma is plenty for UMD when it's a class skill.
You don't need to burn "tons of feats" to be a decent melee character. And it's not like the Summoner has a lot of useful feats to take, anyway. You have virtually no saves, so Spell Focus isn't terribly useful. You have virtually no offensive spells, so Spell Penetration isn't terribly useful. You have very few spell levels to work with, so Metamagic feats aren't terribly useful (except perhaps Extend Spell). You can take the item crafting feats, but anybody in the party can take and use the two most important ones (Arms and Armor and Wondrous Items). What does that really leave you with as far as must-have feats?
You probably want Spell Focus Conjuration and Augment Summon.
You don't need to burn "tons of feats" to be a decent melee character?Well without Bardic Performance or sneak attack, etc. you do need some feats. Especially if you use light armor. As pointed out by james maissen,
To "build summoners to be rogues without sneak attacks or monks without even flurry. They make some sort of poor medium BAB archer that can go 'yay team' to add a little damage. You could do the same with a druid that isn't wildshaping or a cleric without the self buffing spells, but don't really think of it as a great investment."
If you want to be an archer, a good archer, you do need "tons of feats"
Summoners have virtually no saves?
Charm Monster, Slow, Glitterdust, and Grease, Create Pit Series, Stinking Cloud, Creeping Doom, Incendiary Cloud, etc, etc. Most of them are conjuration spells so spell focus conjuration is nnot bad.
Furthermore, by going melee, you're able to concentrate your spells known, because the Eidolon is pretty much always going to also need those same buffs.
And not pick stuff like Black tentacles or Glitterdust?
Also, the UMD is a non-starter. A 16 Charisma is plenty for UMD when it's a class skill.
True.
I'm not saying Charisma is the only way to go, but it's not bad. It's not a matter of starting with char 18. It's more a question if you think char 16 is just as good at level 1 as at level 12.
Bards actually have a wide variety of good effects with saving throws.
The only performance that is any good in this respect is Frightening tune. As for spells, are we talking spells with a saving throw or good spells with a saving throw? In that case I think the summoner's spell list is better than the bard's. Although I'm not sure betting on spells with a saving throw is the best tactic. ...yes I know you never said it is.
I realize this kind of thing is sensitive with the RAW crowd, but by my lights roleplaying NPC reactions (without rolling dice) is well within the limits of GM fiat. In fact, I think it is an essential part of good GMing. If you pick a character who is malodorous and shockingly ugly, or who wears pleated pants or is otherwise utterly rebarbative, the world will take notice. You aren't getting away with a 5 Charisma thinking everything will be fine if you just stand in the back and keep your mouth shut in every social situation.And honestly... if you're having a tough time picking a dump stat, that's a good thing, I think. That means that the desire to have good stats across the board is working as intended.
Obvious "dump stats" are kinda lame.
Especially, since part of having a five Charisma is that you probably can't keep your big, fat mouth shut in social situations. 5 is low enough (actually 6 or 7 is probably low enough) that such a character is actively offensive to a wide variety of people. He can't just sit in the back and let the face do all the talking. No need to use DM fiat. His mere presence should be enough to cause a negative modifier. While the rules don't state that should happen, they don't state it shouldn't, either. Perfectly within DM right to make it so, and I would say it should be done. Too many folks think they can use dump stats in the roleplaying attributes and get away with it.
I might as well add my summoner to the discussion since I had actually been planning on going for a high Cha build...the fact that we're using 25 point buy helps. I have been pondering putting more of the points into Dex however.
The currently planned stats are:
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 12, Wis 8, Cha 19 (+2 from half-elf)
I'll be using a heirloom short bow as my primary weapon.
My summoner doesn't need to tank or even focus on damage because the rest of the party is made up of a fighter, a paladin, and a battle oracle. So, I'm going for a riding/air combat/support casting build.
The summoner will be using his bow and battlefield control spells to assist the rest of the party. The eidolon will be using flyby attack with bull rush (and eventually awesome blow) to knock enemies into the various pit and black tentacle spells that the summoner will have been using.
Since battlefield control spells have a greater impact upon fights than a bow I will probably be focusing more upon spells. I'll get Spell Focus (conjuration) to help things along. This build probably isn't ideal, but I'm going for it since I'm the only arcane spellcaster in the party and they really don't need another front line combatent. I'm not even too concerned about having a high Con to keep the eidolon up since most enemies will probably be focusing on the ground targets.
I'll admit that I'm only in the designing stages for the character, but I figured I'd show him as an example of a summoner that would benefit from a high Cha. Since he'll be using a lot of battlefield control spells, every bit of increase on the DCs will help.
Too many folks think they can use dump stats in the roleplaying attributes and get away with it.So what score merits attention and what score can 'get away with it'?
Is a 10 alright without any diplomacy ranks? How about an 8 with 1 rank untrained in diplomacy? How about a 5 with 1 rank trained in it?
Now all that said, I kinda like roleplaying a character with a flaw. I think it takes me back to a stellarly bad stat'd PC I had in 1st ed that was a blast to play.
But I just did want to caution as its very easy for a DM to 'punish' decisions that he/she doesn't agree with... Not saying that you fall into this, but others have.
If you let only one PC in the party ever need to use stealth, perception, diplomacy, sense motive or any skill then you will encourage this. If you then turn around and punish it I think you've erred doubly in doing so.
-James
I pretty much agree with you, James. A 10 or 11 is average. An 8 or 9 is just someone who is slightly below average at something. A 6 or 7 is significantly below average. A 4 or 5 is definitely the shallow end of the gene pool in that attribute. A 3 is the bottom of that pool.
All I'm saying is that if you have a score like that in one of your stats, you have to roleplay it. If you have a barbarian with a 6 Intelligence, you shouldn't be making much contribution to party strategizing, and anything more than elementary tactics are probably beyond you. If you have a wizard with a 6 Charisma, people are going to actively dislike you, and you can't always hide behind the party face, unless the party is going to carry you around in a hooded cage and let you out only when noone else is around.
I agree that you have to be consistent and I am. At my table, everyone knows that, sooner or later, they will all have to make a wide variety of skill checks, and unbalanced characters will have some difficulty with them. They also know that I will expect them to roleplay the stats they have, and that I will call them on it if they fail to do so.
As you say, flawed characters can be a lot of roleplaying fun to work with. People who play them, however, whether they created them on purpose or were just cursed by the dice gods, have to know that sometimes those flaws will be exposed.
Well without Bardic Performance or sneak attack, etc. you do need some feats.
Not if you don't plan to equal the damage output of a bard or rogue all by yourself -- which you don't have to, because you have an Eidolon.
Especially if you use light armor.
Mithral medium armor plus (Improved) Shield Ally is plenty of AC. It works just fine for Rogues (who don't even get the benefit of SA).
If you want to be an archer, a good archer, you do need "tons of feats"
Again, you don't have to equal the Fighter as an archer. You just have to be able to contribute. That requires all of two feats.
Summoners have virtually no saves?
Charm Monster, Slow, Glitterdust, and Grease, Create Pit Series, Stinking Cloud, Creeping Doom, Incendiary Cloud, etc, etc. Most of them are conjuration spells so spell focus conjuration is nnot bad.
Yes, and almost all of those have a reduced DC to start with because you get them as lower-than standard level spells. Taking Spell Focus for them is throwing good money after bad.
And not pick stuff like Black tentacles or Glitterdust?
Who said anything about that? I sure didn't.
I'll tell you what doesn't seem like an optimal choice: blowing all of your feats, items, and stat points to get your spells to a level where they're as likely to succeed as an un-optimized Wizard, with fewer spells known and per day.
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I'll tell you what doesn't seem like an optimal choice: blowing all of your feats, items, and stat points to get your spells to a level where they're as likely to succeed as an un-optimized Wizard, with fewer spells known and per day.
OK. This is something I'm not understanding about some of these arguments: the consistent "well, if the PC can't cast as well/efficiently as the wizard/sorcerer/druid/cleric can, what's the point of a caster build?" line of thinking.
I'd go further to argue that the same line of discussion could even apply to arguments against front line builds, but I do understand concerns about either target (Eidolon or PC) becoming healing sinks.
The point is the Summoner him/herself isn't supposed to be on par with these other classes. A Summoner is a complete 'PC' in power levels when combined with an Eidolon.
On their own, the Summoner themselves is not going to be able to do quite what another PC can do because if they did, they would be unbalanced. It'd be no better than giving a X base class Leadership and a cohort for free at 1st level that could be whatever they wanted it to be. This includes damage output, feats, and even skills.
Yes, being reliant on the Eidolon for being 'complete' sucks. But keep in mind that in this arrangement one 'PC' is guaranteed two sets of actions a turn, access to at least 6 trained class skills (4 of which, the Eidolon's, they get to choose whatever ones they want), six levels of support casting including battlefield control, and access to a skill that lets them use whatever magic item they damn well please. And if none of that spellcasting I mentioned is enough, the skill that lets you use whatever magic item you damn well please shares an attribute reliance
Druid is the closest I can think of, but they do not get a class ability that backs up their animal companion (Summon Monster), their companion doesn't come back the next day after being killed, they cannot customize said companion to any thing close to the degree an Eidolon is by default, or the limitations on said companion being an animal vs. a sentient creature capable of acting on it's own accord when necessary (Unfetter, anyone?)
I'll tell you what doesn't seem like an optimal choice: blowing all of your feats, items, and stat points to get your spells to a level where they're as likely to succeed as an un-optimized Wizard, with fewer spells known and per day.OK. This is something I'm not understanding about some of these arguments: the consistent "well, if the PC can't cast as well/efficiently as the wizard/sorcerer/druid/cleric can, what's the point of a caster build?" line of thinking.
I'd go further to argue that the same line of discussion could even apply to arguments against front line builds, but I do understand concerns about either target (Eidolon or PC) becoming healing sinks.
The point is the Summoner him/herself isn't supposed to be on par with these other classes. A Summoner is a complete 'PC' in power levels when combined with an Eidolon.
If you'll read my post history in this thread, I've already made that point. My post above that you quoted is a response to james maissen continually comparing the Summoner alone to a Rogue while espousing eschewing every other stat for a pure Charisma build so that the Summoner can be a pure caster.
Except, of course, that even with absolute maximum Charisma, the Summoner still sucks as a pure caster. Their DCs are still 15-20 percentage points less likely to affect their target, they have fewer spells both per day and known, and way fewer high level spells even beyond that.
You're more likely to make a positive impact with a Summoner who is competent at physical attacks (even though he's not a Rogue or Fighter) and started with a 12-14 Charisma who uses a headband of alluring charisma than you are with one who has 8's or 10's in everything but Charisma and can do absolutely nothing if he doesn't want to burn his very limited spells per day.
I don't see how this thread became a face vs melee vs caster build when the summoners combat tactics are staring you in the face. SUMMON MONSTERS.
Just because you can't use the worthless SLA while you have your immortal beast of destruction out doesn't mean you can't cast the spells regarded by many as one of the most USEFUL forms of combat control a caster has.
I've personally decided on a few things in regard to what a summoner should be doing in combat:
1. Ride the Eidolon: Take the feats that make you capable of protecting your Eidolon. Mounted Combat, Trick Riding, and Indomitable Mount are sick nasty effects. Sure he may not be big enough at level one with an Enlarge to guarantee you're not the target of most attacks, so sit back if you prefer until it's gained some weight. Once you get invisibility riding into combat will be even more viable. Even IF you take a beating, your Eidolons hit points are added to your own(moreso with diehard), so low AC or not you can take a lot of punishment AND heal your HP bank.
2. Support: Whilst riding your Eidolon you can buff that sucker every round WHILE using immediate actions to protect it. You can heal it every round to! The amount of buffs your Eidolon can benefit from are insane. Enlarge, Magic Fang(& Greater), Haste, Fly, Heroism, Invisibility, Displacement...that list goes on. You have an entire HOST of buffs the Evolution Surge spells can grant your vicious minion.
3. More Support!: Don't forget the summoner can cast all those wonderful fog/wall spells that wreak havoc in a battlefield when used correctly. You get all the great Teleport spells to. After that, and here's the REALLY cool part; Since the summoner has the Actions per round economy to do so, you can actually use dispel magics as counter spells in combat! That's right, you get greater dispel magic the same level wizards do, and it's spell level doesn't mean jack!
4. Minions!!: Back to my original point. If you absolutely HAVE to be doing something more than commanding your meticulously designed Engine of Destruction, and it can't possibly be buffing or casting fog covered rock mazes for your enemies to navigate, then drop down a critter or two. The amount of damage a summoned monster takes is less potential damage any of your party takes, and if it doesn't take any damage, odds are it'll do more than any DC based nuke spell in a few rounds.
Sure you can't cast as many spells per day as a wizard, but what wizard has ALL his daily spells set to combat spells anyways. A wizard's going to run out of spells eventually to, and their options aren't much better...at least you've got your unstoppable juggernaut to keep on eating face with.
Monsters summoned via summon monster are only useful as meat shields until SMVI or so, and only vaguely useful as meat shields until SMIII or so. You're spending an entire round's worth of actions to summon a creature that, assuming you're using your highest level slot, is 3-6 CRs below what you're fighting at an absolute minimum. They are not a threat, and any intelligent creature is going to completely ignore them if at all possible.
Furthermore, it's not like a bare minimum Charisma Summoner can't do exactly the same thing. Which is what this thread is about: the usefulness of Charisma to a Summoner.
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To be clear, I'm not saying that Summoners shouldn't cast spells. What I'm saying is that Summoners shouldn't devote all of their resources to casting spells because they can do their job 95% as well without doing so, and devoting resources to other jobs makes them far more versatile and more effective overall.
Monsters summoned via summon monster are only useful as meat shields until SMVI or so, and only vaguely useful as meat shields until SMIII or so. You're spending an entire round's worth of actions to summon a creature that, assuming you're using your highest level slot, is 3-6 CRs below what you're fighting at an absolute minimum. They are not a threat, and any intelligent creature is going to completely ignore them if at all possible.
Furthermore, it's not like a bare minimum Charisma Summoner can't do exactly the same thing. Which is what this thread is about: the usefulness of Charisma to a Summoner.
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To be clear, I'm not saying that Summoners shouldn't cast spells. What I'm saying is that Summoners shouldn't devote all of their resources to casting spells because they can do their job 95% as well without doing so, and devoting resources to other jobs makes them far more versatile and more effective overall.
If you haven't noticed, Zurai, I've been agreeing with you and my entire post was suggestions regarding actions that require no spellcasting investment at all, i.e. 16 Cha Summoner.