Yes, I know you are all thinking I am nuts for even asking. The effects of Color Spray are absolutely phenomenal. I can certainly see why people like it. But what really turns me off is the 15’ cone. That is such a dangerous distance for a 6-8 HP squishy arcane caster.
Of course the idea is to take out whomever is within the 15’ distance. But what I am thinking of is the original encounter distance, you need to work your way up to them and if they see a caster trying to ‘stealth’ his way up to them, he becomes a prime target. Even if they don’t come running up to you, they hit you from range with arrows/bolts.
Sleep I like because you can hit from good range. I know this next spell is not looked upon favorably by many, but I like Magic Missle. It is guaranteed damage and again, more importantly, you can hit from a relatively safe distance.
I really like Color Spray, but please convince me on the viability of using it safely in combat. And I am talking about a 1st or 2nd level caster, where you don’t have the higher level spells to help protect you.
Only problem with Green's strategy is that Color Spray has maximum range of 15 feet from your fingertips, not 45. Since he might wish to dispute this, I offer this quote from the PSRD
Presumably the idea is move action for 30' move, standard action to cast color spray.
Presumably the idea is move action for 30' move, standard action to cast color spray.
Exactly.
Although I usually see it the other way around: win initiative, color spray, and then still be able to flee 30 ft. if it doesn't work.
Wait, people really don't like Magic Missile?
Yes, my thoughts as well.
Enemies don't have very long range weapons at this level. No, javelins are not very long range. You also end up encountering them close up anyways (anywhere indoors, kobold dens, whatever).
Well, maybe in the campaigns you have played spears have been the primary ranged weapons at first level. But Short Bows, Long Bows and Crossbows are very legitimate 1st level ranged weapons and we have seen them often at 1st level in the campaigns my DM has run.
If you're within 45 feet, you can Color Spray. Sleep is too slow, Magic Missile is too weak.
As Lazar indicated, the range of Colorspray is 15’. Even if you include the move action in that 45’, you are more than likely going to have yourself exposed for other enemies.
Yeah, you'll die in 1-2 hits from anything but so will any other class at this level (you should also have 10 HP, but whatever). That's not unique.
So you usually make your casters then with an 18 Con? I do like to put some Con in my casters, usually a 12 or 14, I’ve even done 16 once before, but an 18 Con (and therefore 10 HP) is far from what ‘should’ be done.
Combat at first or second level is going to be dangerous, plain and simple fact. With that in mind your best option is to make sure you're not in threat when casting it.
Oh yes, I agree. Combat at those levels are very dangerous, but that was my point of this thread in Colorspray being viable. At least with the spells that are at medium range (Sleep, Magic Missle, etc) you might be in a 2nd range increment with one of their ranged weapons and if they are melee, it will take time for them to get to you.
But if you are moving towards them to put yourself in range of Colorspray, it is a greater chance to be attacked by other enemies. If the only enemies are the ones you are targeting with Colorspray, then great, go for it. But usually it doesn’t work out that way.
(you should also have 10 HP, but whatever).So you usually make your casters then with an 18 Con? I do like to put some Con in my casters, usually a 12 or 14, I’ve even done 16 once before, but an 18 Con (and therefore 10 HP) is far from what ‘should’ be done.
6 (class HD) + 1 (favored class) + 3 (Con bonus) will do it with 16 Con. Or take Toughness (10-11 Con), presuming you're human and still have a feat left for Improved Initiative. It'll put you 1 behind on save DCs, but whatever.
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I did save the group using color spray in my first adventure. The two main fighters were already more than busy. The paladin was down. Some weaker fighters effected by fear.
Two more monsters just had downed the paladin and would move next turn to help against the main fighter.
So there is my squishy level one wizard - having the option to run and deliver half the party to doom or move in - cast color spray and hope for the best. At least the DC was high with Int 20 and Focus Illusion.
The two monsters were down, I was able to pour a healing potion into the paladin. I boughtntime for the minor fighters and the group did win the day.
Viable as a powerful spell - yes.
Safe - no.
It depends on your play style. This is a very powerful spell - but younhave to use it carefully. Cast it and have a fighter step in. Or cast and pray.
If is isn't your style of play - go with magic missile. Sure hit - from a save distance. Just don't complain it is weaker.
Thod
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Yes, my thoughts as well.Wait, people really don't like Magic Missile?
In fairness I absolutely hate Magic Missile at levels 1 and 2. It's damage is too low to be effective at much of anything. Once you get that second, third, fourth, and fifth missile though my opinions of the spell skyrocket.
Well, maybe in the campaigns you have played spears have been the primary ranged weapons at first level. But Short Bows, Long Bows and Crossbows are very legitimate 1st level ranged weapons and we have seen them often at 1st level in the campaigns my DM has run.
Agreed. I regularly see enemies with short bows in particular at that level. But just because combat can occur at those ranges doesn't mean that it regularly does. Stealth, terrain, and other campaign features (such as being in a dungeon) have a lot of impact on what spells can be used.
As Lazar indicated, the range of Colorspray is 15’. Even if you include the move action in that 45’, you are more than likely going to have yourself exposed for other enemies.
Part of the risk vs. reward for the spell. A reasonably high casting stat wizard or sorcerer is going to have a save DC of roughly 15. Against the vast majority of enemies you're talking about roughly a 50% to 75% success rate on the spell when it goes off which should make that vulnerable caster a lot less vulnerable when all the bad guys are asleep, blinded, and generally messed up.
So you usually make your casters then with an 18 Con? I do like to put some Con in my casters, usually a 12 or 14, I’ve even done 16 once before, but an 18 Con (and therefore 10 HP) is far from what ‘should’ be done.
My current wizard went the route of 14 CON, a favored class bonus in hit points, and toughness for my human feat. That's a total of 12 hit points at a not unreasonable expenditure. Even 8 HP means you'll likely survive at least one hit if you're in a bad situation, and with mage armor and a reasonable dex (say 14), your AC will be a 16, which is nothing to scoff at. It might be dangerous, but really it's not that bad.
Oh yes, I agree. Combat at those levels are very dangerous, but that was my point of this thread in Colorspray being viable. At least with the spells that are at medium range (Sleep, Magic Missle, etc) you might be in a 2nd range increment with one of their ranged weapons and if they are melee, it will take time for them to get to you.
But if you are moving towards them to put yourself in range of Colorspray, it is a greater chance to be attacked by other enemies. If the only enemies are the ones you are targeting with Colorspray, then great, go for it. But usually it doesn’t work out that way.
Color spray isn't a long range or even medium range spell though and a lot of combat occurs indoors or in close range. Every spell won't be fantastic 100% of the time. Color spray's effectiveness though when you are within range is just too good to pass-up though. Maybe in your particular campaign you're struggling to find a use because of what your GM puts you up against, but in nearly every campaign I've played in, color spray is a daily spell I take and I use that casting every time.
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Enemies don't have very long range weapons at this level. No, javelins are not very long range. You also end up encountering them close up anyways (anywhere indoors, kobold dens, whatever).
Wow your games sound positively abnormal that you encounter NO bows at level 1. And that all level 1 adventures happen indoors. Works in your game once again != works in general. Color spray is situationally awesome...and situationally horrible.
6 (class HD) + 1 (favored class) + 3 (Con bonus) will do it with 16 Con. Or take Toughness (10-11 Con), presuming you're human and still have a feat left for Improved Initiative. It'll put you 1 behind on save DCs, but whatever.(you should also have 10 HP, but whatever).So you usually make your casters then with an 18 Con? I do like to put some Con in my casters, usually a 12 or 14, I’ve even done 16 once before, but an 18 Con (and therefore 10 HP) is far from what ‘should’ be done.
Well yes, good point, it wouldn’t only be because of an 18 Con. But either way, 10 HP’s isn’t something that is automatically assumed.
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Well yes, good point, it wouldn’t only be because of an 18 Con. But either way, 10 HP’s isn’t something that is automatically assumed.
But let's be honest here. With a "good" GM, chances are you'll be fighting appropriate level creatures/bad guys. Let's just assume for a second that you're fighting a creature with a 14 STR and a BAB +1 attacking you with a short sword.
If they do hit you, you're talking an average damage of 5.5 HP. Really, there's little difference at that point between having 6 HP and 10 HP, chances are you'll survive the first hit and go down on the second. I realize there's a little variability to things, but in essence you really are about as tough either way.
What you're not factoring in is that with an even average AC (14 with mage armor and a zero dex bonus) you're only going to be hit roughly 45% of the time by that same bad guy, so even in the case that you're worried about getting hit after you let off a color spray, it's certainly not guaranteed that you're going down. It's a bit of a risk yes, but the reward of getting off a successful color spray and watching a 75% of the group of guys with will saves of +0 (again reasonable for that level) go down is worth it.
At level 1 color spray is absolutely gross against a tight packed group of bad guys.
If you are an oracle with the right set up Color Spray will be an effective spell until about level 6, when the monsters saves just start to overpower the DC. It is the best lvl 1 spell out there and should be a must have for a mage, at least with a scroll for back up!
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Magic Missile is a pretty good spell for sorcerers with high charisma and little else. But for low-level wizards, it's not a good choice. Chances are, you only have 2-3 1st-level spells (maaaaaybe 4) and using a third of your best resource on 2-5 damage is not a good tradeoff, in my opinion. Much better to memorize ray of frost if you want to do damage. Sure, it does less and there's a chance to miss, but you can cast it all day.
Also, evokers get a MM-like ability at level 1 that is just as effective as the actual spell until 3rd level. If you like magic missile, be an evoker!
Mages with the Toughness feat (and mage armor, etc.) should be more liberal with Color Spray. Those who are going a different route might want to stick to Grease, Silent Image, Charm Person, Enlarge Person, True Strike... and the other fun spells.
In fairness I absolutely hate Magic Missile at levels 1 and 2. It's damage is too low to be effective at much of anything. Once you get that second, third, fourth, and fifth missile though my opinions of the spell skyrocket.
This is also basically my take on it.
At low levels, almost everything is better than Magic Missile -- but it scales well and remains useful with level, and a lot of the best low-level-use level 1 spells really really don't. Exhibit A: Sleep.
I removed a post. Personal attacks are unacceptable.
Well, maybe in the campaigns you have played spears have been the primary ranged weapons at first level. But Short Bows, Long Bows and Crossbows are very legitimate 1st level ranged weapons and we have seen them often at 1st level in the campaigns my DM has run.Except that level 1 creatures can't afford them, and no strength bonus means they do nothing you care about if they do.
As Lazar indicated, the range of Colorspray is 15’. Even if you include the move action in that 45’, you are more than likely going to have yourself exposed for other enemies.This is why your other casters aim save or loses at different areas, if you can't zap em all in one shot.
So you usually make your casters then with an 18 Con? I do like to put some Con in my casters, usually a 12 or 14, I’ve even done 16 once before, but an 18 Con (and therefore 10 HP) is far from what ‘should’ be done.There is no reason whatsoever for any Wizard to not have 18 Int, 16 Con. With favored class, easy 10.
Maybe the wizard likes to act first in combat? Cause I find going before the opposition makes things better for me than having 3 extra hit points. An 18 means a DC 16 maximum -- not something I fancy when the fighter will have a will save bonus of +4 at least (and this is a human fighter we are talking about).
Stats:
16 Strength 16 Dexerity 12 Consitution, 10 Intelligence, 14 Wisdom 8 Charisma
Feats: Iron Will, point blank shot, rapid shot
Long bow +3/+3 for 1d8+1 each hit.
I'm willing to bet your Con 16 Int 18 Wizard doesn't really have any AC which means if I make that Will save (and I have a 45% chance to do so if I don't have a trait for my save throw which would put me at 50/50) I'm probably going to down your wizard in one round, since you have to close with me and beat me in Initiative in order to color spray me.
Heck if you don't like that set up:
Dwarf Fighter:
Str 16 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 6
Iron Will, Power Attack
Greatsword +3 for 2d6+7
You color spray (again with the DC 16) and I have a will save of +7 without a trait, +8 with one. Those are not odds I would fancy as a wizard -- especially since it only take one greatsword hit to kill him still.
If you are an oracle with the right set up Color Spray will be an effective spell until about level 6, when the monsters saves just start to overpower the DC. It is the best lvl 1 spell out there and should be a must have for a mage, at least with a scroll for back up!
If you are an oracle with the right set up Color spray stays effective up until about 16th~18th level.
But let's be honest here. With a "good" GM, chances are you'll be fighting appropriate level creatures/bad guys. Let's just assume for a second that you're fighting a creature with a 14 STR and a BAB +1 attacking you with a short sword.If they do hit you, you're talking an average damage of 5.5 HP. Really, there's little difference at that point between having 6 HP and 10 HP, chances are you'll survive the first hit and go down on the second. I realize there's a little variability to things, but in essence you really are about as tough either way.
What you're not factoring in is that with an even average AC (14 with mage armor and a zero dex bonus) you're only going to be hit roughly 45% of the time by that same bad guy, so even in the case that you're worried about getting hit after you let off a color spray, it's certainly not guaranteed that you're going down. It's a bit of a risk yes, but the reward of getting off a successful color spray and watching a 75% of the group of guys with will saves of +0 (again reasonable for that level) go down is worth it.
At level 1 color spray is absolutely gross against a tight packed group of bad guys.
Yes, your argument is very valid. I have certainly taken my share of risks, but I only do so usually on one of two occasions:
One, I know I am going to incapacitate the remaining enemies or most of the remaining enemies. Two, one of my party members is in trouble and if I don't do something now, they are going to get munched.
This of course applies when I am playing a squishy caster. If I am a more buffed caster or a class who is a front-line fighter, then of course I will be rushing ahead and constantly putting myself in risk.
But maybe I am just more careful in general as when I was younger (and not as experienced playing a caster-type), I had my share of instances where I just did dumb moves and ended up going down because of it.
Well, maybe in the campaigns you have played spears have been the primary ranged weapons at first level. But Short Bows, Long Bows and Crossbows are very legitimate 1st level ranged weapons and we have seen them often at 1st level in the campaigns my DM has run.Except that level 1 creatures can't afford them, and no strength bonus means they do nothing you care about if they do.
You may want to take a look in the Bestiary again. There are several creatures at CR 1 or less that have bows of some sort. And our DM has supplied 1st level fighters (we have fought against) with bows, as well. Bows are not rare or unaffordable by any means for 1st level encounters.
As for the strength issue, not sure what your point is on that. Ranged attacks do not take into account for strength, unless they are composite. And I was just talking plain bows. They do plenty of enough damage on their own against a 1st level character.
There is no reason whatsoever for any Wizard to not have 18 Int, 16 Con. With favored class, easy 10.
It really depends on what ability generation you are using. But with point buy (which is what we have always used), the only way to pull off an 18 and 16 is to pick the 'correct' race. But even then, lets say you get that +2 in the right ability score (Int in this case), it only leaves you with 5 points to spend for the remaining 4 ability stats. So optimally, it would be a 14 in another stat.
So is it doable to get an 18 and 16? Sure. But it is far from being "no reason whatsoever" not to have them. And again, this is done with the Epic Fantasy (25 pt). Our DM has gone with 20 pts.
Also, this goes out to anyone who wants to answer, but in regards to your favored class bonus, I have seen several apply the favored class bonus at 1st level. However,
Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either +1 hit point or +1 skill rank.
Now is creating a 1st level character considered as 'gaining' a level and therefore you are able to apply the favored class bonus? The way our group has done it, we did not apply the favored class bonus until 2nd level, as we didn't consider creating our characters at 1st level as 'gaining' a level. Is that incorrect? If so, I will let the rest of our group know during our next session.
Removed my post. Decided I didn't like the example I was setting.
Not related to the one below, btw.
Now is creating a 1st level character considered as 'gaining' a level and therefore you are able to apply the favored class bonus? The way our group has done it, we did not apply the favored class bonus until 2nd level, as we didn't consider creating our characters at 1st level as 'gaining' a level. Is that incorrect? If so, I will let the rest of our group know during our next session.
I'm almost 100% positive you get the FC bonus on every level, inc. the first.
I removed another post. I don't care who started it, personal attacks are against the rules.
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Now is creating a 1st level character considered as 'gaining' a level and therefore you are able to apply the favored class bonus? The way our group has done it, we did not apply the favored class bonus until 2nd level, as we didn't consider creating our characters at 1st level as 'gaining' a level. Is that incorrect? If so, I will let the rest of our group know during our next session.
Take a look at the first level characters provided with any intro mod or new AP and backward engineer for an answer to this question.
Now is creating a 1st level character considered as 'gaining' a level and therefore you are able to apply the favored class bonus? The way our group has done it, we did not apply the favored class bonus until 2nd level, as we didn't consider creating our characters at 1st level as 'gaining' a level. Is that incorrect? If so, I will let the rest of our group know during our next session.Take a look at the first level characters provided with any intro mod or new AP and backward engineer for an answer to this question.
I don't have any mods or APs. The question was not that unreasonable and I was only asking for confirmation.
I don't have any mods or APs. The question was not that unreasonable and I was only asking for confirmation.Now is creating a 1st level character considered as 'gaining' a level and therefore you are able to apply the favored class bonus? The way our group has done it, we did not apply the favored class bonus until 2nd level, as we didn't consider creating our characters at 1st level as 'gaining' a level. Is that incorrect? If so, I will let the rest of our group know during our next session.Take a look at the first level characters provided with any intro mod or new AP and backward engineer for an answer to this question.
From the PRD (emphasis mine):
"Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either + 1 hit point or + 1 skill rank. The choice of favored class cannot be changed once the character is created, and the choice of gaining a hit point or a skill rank each time a character gains a level (including his first level) cannot be changed once made for a particular level."
It seems to me that you get the Favored Class benefit at 1st level.
Yes, your argument is very valid. I have certainly taken my share of risks, but I only do so usually on one of two occasions:
Generally speaking, assuming reasonable levels of teamwork, my experience is that you take a smaller risk by getting in there to unload Color Spray at the appropriate time than you do by playing too conservatively, in which case your party is more likely to get into so much trouble that it's too late for you to save them.
That doesn't mean that you need to charge in and unload Color Spray at every possible opportunity, and it doesn't mean you can't eat that unlucky greataxe crit and go straight to dead (but, that can happen to anyone), and it doesn't mean that when stuff attacks you it probably won't hit you and possibly make you unconscious... but I don't think it's as suicidal relative to your other options as you think.
That all being said, if you're really really leery about getting close to melee, Sleep isn't the worst alternate option. There you're trading a lot of range for being vulnerable to disruption for a full round. (And Color Spray works on a few extra things.)
I don't have any mods or APs. The question was not that unreasonable and I was only asking for confirmation.Now is creating a 1st level character considered as 'gaining' a level and therefore you are able to apply the favored class bonus? The way our group has done it, we did not apply the favored class bonus until 2nd level, as we didn't consider creating our characters at 1st level as 'gaining' a level. Is that incorrect? If so, I will let the rest of our group know during our next session.Take a look at the first level characters provided with any intro mod or new AP and backward engineer for an answer to this question.From the PRD (emphasis mine):
"Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either + 1 hit point or + 1 skill rank. The choice of favored class cannot be changed once the character is created, and the choice of gaining a hit point or a skill rank each time a character gains a level (including his first level) cannot be changed once made for a particular level."
It seems to me that you get the Favored Class benefit at 1st level.
Ok, thank you.
Yeah the best I've seen with color spray is when you can move in right before your fighter/rogue and unload it without blocking their attack lines. Basically you move forward "blast" and then they step up in front to shield you and finish off those that fall to the spell.
It's generally *not* a good spell for individual tactics -- but for group play where you can rely on the rest of the party to work as moving shields/ attackers it becomes much more potent.
It is the best lvl 1 spell out there and should be a must have for a mage, at least with a scroll for back up!
A scroll kills the DC though (only DC 11) - can still be useful, but that's a lot rougher to try and you still provoke attacks of opportunity.
A wand of color spray would be pretty badass though now that I think of it.
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CS is one of the best Save or Die/Sucks at low level. After about level 7, I usually dump it in favour of something a little meaner, but still very deadly at low levels.
If you coordinate with the other members of your party, you can reduce your exposure to counter attacks (fighter delays to go just after you cast the spell and move in front of you). Still, it doesn't hurt to have mage armour (maybe shield) and a source of cover to dive behind. :)
I highly recommend the APG Conjuration sub-school Teleportation.
Move action, move close to enemies.
Standard action, blast with colour spray.
Swift action, teleport back 30 feet.
Thank you for everyone’s input, a lot of you have put out a lot of great suggestion the use of the spell.
Now I will say the reason I actually put forth the question. I am now a just turned 2nd level Sorcerer in our current campaign. Mage Armor and Magic Missle (or Sleep) have been my mainstays when playing a Sorcerer before.
However, this is the first time I’ve played a Sorcerer in PF (as this is my first PF campaign). When creating my character, I went and picked Mage Armor and (this time) Magic Missle with it. But after reading the threads on here, I was seeing selections instead of Mage Armor and was debating on maybe going with more of a control spell that I haven't used before (i.e. Colorspray). Also, am not finding myself using Mage Armor too much as I would rather take that first round and actually do something offensive than put the spell on myself. And it’s not like I can walk around with it all day like you can at higher levels.
So as I said, I was debating on a different spell and was thinking about Colorspray, but the 15’ range really concerned me, and therefore, the purpose of the thread.
I know by RAW, I’ve already selected my spells, but how my DM is, I am sure that he would allow me to switch out one if I really wanted to. It’s not something I have done a lot in the past or would continue to do so (as it would make the Sorcerer ability for every even numbered level pretty useless).
Now knowing that, do you feel it worthwhile to switch Mage Armor out for Colorspray? And knowing it is for a Sorcerer, not a Wizard?
Don't know if this has been said, but an Oracle with the Heavens mystery can be very effective with color spray from levels 1-7. All you have to do is take the Awesome Display revelation and make sure you stack CHA, which you would normally.
An example of how this works would be, you are an oracle of 4th level and your CHA mod is +4 (17 starting plus stat increase = 18, assuming you put a 17 in CHA to start). You take the Heavens mystery and Awesome Display revelation at either 1st or 3rd level. Now when your character is up against the BBEG who is 6th level or lower they will be treated as 2nd level or lower when you use color spray. Should they fail their save, that will make for a quick and easy fight.
Well, if I play an Oracle in the future, I will keep that in mind. When creating my character, I was actually debating on playing an Oracle over the Sorcerer. Although I would have picked the Life Mystery as I was going to be the healer of the group.
But, this situation is geared towards a Sorcerer as stated in my last post. However, thanks for the tip.
I think it's a viable choice, provided you're willing to do what it takes to place yourself in close range. And if you pick up some minor bracers, it can make up at least partially, for not having Mage Armor yet.
Well, I will try to pick up some bracers, but I doubt I will be able to do so in the type of campaign we are playing. Our group are all monsters and at this time, we are pretty self sufficient. We unfortunately can’t just go into town and order supplies. It’s kind of fun, but getting a hold of things, even some of the most basic supplies, makes it a little challenging.
What I probably will do just be extra careful during 2nd level (when casting Colorspray) and when I hit 3rd and pick up Craft Wonderous Item, craft myself some bracers.
How long would you say Colorspray is good for as a spell? 4th, maybe 5th level tops?
Edit: Ugh, forgot about the level restriction for the bracers. The best I could do would be a +1 at 3rd level, not sure it would be worth it.
Also, the irony of it is the bracers of course require Mage Armor which I would be dropping for Colorspray. lol
Mage Armour for a Sorcerer is worth it if Bracers of Armour won't be readily available. Even if they are, you can always trade out Mage Armour later. In any case, if you can, paying 16,000 gp for basically an extra spell known is totally worth it.
Incidentally, the same is not true for a Wizard, A Pearl of Power - 1st and a Rod of Extend, Lesser are a better, and cheaper buy than Bracers +4.
Mage Armour for a Sorcerer is worth it if Bracers of Armour won't be readily available. Even if they are, you can always trade out Mage Armour later. In any case, if you can, paying 16,000 gp for basically an extra spell known is totally worth it.
Incidentally, the same is not true for a Wizard, A Pearl of Power - 1st and a Rod of Extend, Lesser are a better, and cheaper buy than Bracers +4.
Well, I have nothing close to 16,000 gp at the moment. But that isn’t even the most difficult aspect, as I said in my prior post, due to being monsters, right now it’s just impossible to buy magic items anywhere. And I think it’s going to remain that way, at least for a long time yet. It’s why I plan on taking several of the Item Creation feats.
So I don’t know, after more discussion and thought, maybe it would just be better to keep Mage Armor.
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Well, I will try to pick up some bracers, but I doubt I will be able to do so in the type of campaign we are playing. Our group are all monsters and at this time, we are pretty self sufficient. We unfortunately can’t just go into town and order supplies. It’s kind of fun, but getting a hold of things, even some of the most basic supplies, makes it a little challenging.
Bracers of armor (defense) are IMHO overpriced crap. You can buy over 20 wands of mage armor for the price of one set of +4 bracers. You can buy lesser extend rod and use one of your level 1 casting slots and still have 13,000 gp left over for other useful gear for the same price as those +4 bracers for more-or-less an equivalent effect and two extra level 1-3 extended spells per day (extended shield, extended fox's cunning, or an extended cat's grace are all fantastic options).
What I probably will do just be extra careful during 2nd level (when casting Colorspray) and when I hit 3rd and pick up Craft Wonderous Item, craft myself some bracers.
As many have mentioned, you don't need to be "extra careful", you just need to make sure you function as a team with the rest of the players at the table and that you stay aware of what you're capable of handling. Just remember that if you're somehow able to catch four people in the spell, chances are three of those four will be out of the fight. If you're capable of surviving combat with the fourth for a round or two, then go for it.
How long would you say Colorspray is good for as a spell? 4th, maybe 5th level tops?
Depends entirely on the campaign and how your GM likes running things. If you're typically going up against lots of low-level baddies, then it will last significantly longer than if your GM likes to challenge you with single high CR foes, in which case you'll likely only see a few levels of significant use out of it. Just remember though, even creatures with more than 5 HD still get stunned for one round if they fail their save. If you can catch three or so bad guys in the AOE, even if they're higher HD, you'll likely see a good economy of scale for using the spell (you've expended one action to likely stun two creatures out of a group of three, which means you're action has been used effectively to deny two actions).
Edit: Ugh, forgot about the level restriction for the bracers. The best I could do would be a +1 at 3rd level, not sure it would be worth it.
Also, the irony of it is the bracers of course require Mage Armor which I would be dropping for Colorspray. lol
It's harder to do, but don't forget that you can always craft without knowing the spell. Also, again IMHO, at levels 1-2 magic missile is a terrible spell. I'd drop MM for color spray before I dropped Mage Armor for color spray. At levels 1-2 you're better off just firing the crossbow you carry around (1d8 damage = an average of 4.5 damage a hit, vs. magic missile causing 3.5 a hit).
Now knowing that, do you feel it worthwhile to switch Mage Armor out for Colorspray? And knowing it is for a Sorcerer, not a Wizard?
Personally, I would only consider Mage Armor as one of my first spells as a sorcerer if I knew there was another party member who would want it cast on them -- probably a monk.
Generally I've made peace with the idea that if someone attacks me at the lowest levels, they probably will hit me. I try to cover that as best I can in alternate ways -- avoiding melee range unless it's to unload a spell like Color Spray, hiding behind cover when available, dropping prone when archery's the concern, etc.
I don't think Mage Armor is a bad spell, I just can't justify it being one of only two things I can cast for a full two levels. Unless someone else needs it I'd rather pack offense or utility that can help pull my weight in the team.
Bracers of armor (defense) are IMHO overpriced crap. You can buy over 20 wands of mage armor for the price of one set of +4 bracers. You can buy lesser extend rod and use one of your level 1 casting slots and still have 13,000 gp left over for other useful gear for the same price as those +4 bracers for more-or-less an equivalent effect and two extra level 1-3 extended spells per day (extended shield, extended fox's cunning, or an extended cat's grace are all fantastic options).
Yes, very good point. I agree, the benefits are not worth the cost. But one thing in it’s defense, the point of the bracers would have been something I don’t have to cast, which I would still need to with spell on the wand.
But besides that, as I said, I don’t have anywhere near that kind of cash, and even if I did, there is nowhere to buy bracers or wands of any sort.
As many have mentioned, you don't need to be "extra careful", you just need to make sure you function as a team with the rest of the players at the table and that you stay aware of what you're capable of handling. Just remember that if you're somehow able to catch four people in the spell, chances are three of those four will be out of the fight. If you're capable of surviving combat with the fourth for a round or two, then go for it.
We actually have worked well as a group in this campaign so far, with the exception of one raid where we got slammed pretty hard invading a bandit cave (I almost died). But we did take out a fort with 2 second level fighters, two more ground support (1st level) and three 1st level fighter archers (on towers). At the time, there was only myself (Sorcerer), a Rogue and an NPC Troll Druid (don’t ask). Both of us are Hobgoblins. Since the two us (PCs) have darkvision, we used the night to our advantage and I think did a pretty good job. We wiped out all of them before the next shift came to help, but we did lose the Troll. My DM was quite surprised that we took out everyone.
But my point is, I am pretty sure my group would work well enough with me to be able to cast Colorspray. Let’s just say I have learn to be cautious and not assume anything. :)
Depends entirely on the campaign and how your GM likes running things. If you're typically going up against lots of low-level baddies, then it will last significantly longer than if your GM likes to challenge you with single high CR foes, in which case you'll likely only see a few levels of significant use out of it. Just remember though, even creatures with more than 5 HD still get stunned for one round if they fail their save. If you can catch three or so bad guys in the AOE, even if they're higher HD, you'll likely see a good economy of scale for using the spell (you've expended one action to likely stun two creatures out of a group of three, which means you're action has been used effectively to deny two actions).
My DM likes to use both. Both low-level baddies and also have the high CR fights, more equal to our level. He likes to soften our resources with the lower level encounters where we always aren’t going in full strength for the higher level encounters. So yes, in that case, Colorspray should be effective longer.
It's harder to do, but don't forget that you can always craft without knowing the spell. Also, again IMHO, at levels 1-2 magic missile is a terrible spell. I'd drop MM for color spray before I dropped Mage Armor for color spray. At levels 1-2 you're better off just firing the crossbow you carry around (1d8 damage = an average of 4.5 damage a hit, vs. magic missile causing 3.5 a hit).
Oh yes, I am aware of that. Very much so, in fact. Been doing a lot of reading in regards to crafting for magic items since my Sorcerer is going to go down that route and I have already accepted I am going to be making a lot of the items at +5 DC (or more) since I will not have the spell most times.
I appreciate your suggestion on MM, but I actually like it. It has always done well for me. I certainly agree, the damage is much more worthwhile at higher levels, but I can usually do most of a creatures hp's with a couple missles, or finish them off if someone had already started on a creature. And that was with one missle, now that I have hit 2nd level, it will be even more so.
I do have a bow (Heavy Crossbow), as well. But with how often I miss with it, I find I do more consistent damage with MM as it never misses.
Personally, I would only consider Mage Armor as one of my first spells as a sorcerer if I knew there was another party member who would want it cast on them -- probably a monk.Generally I've made peace with the idea that if someone attacks me at the lowest levels, they probably will hit me. I try to cover that as best I can in alternate ways -- avoiding melee range unless it's to unload a spell like Color Spray, hiding behind cover when available, dropping prone when archery's the concern, etc.
I don't think Mage Armor is a bad spell, I just can't justify it being one of only two things I can cast for a full two levels. Unless someone else needs it I'd rather pack offense or utility that can help pull my weight in the team.
This is also exactly the way I’ve been thinking recently, since I have started to debate on changing it out. Most times I have not casted Mage Armor, because like you indicated, I want to do something more offensive in combat. And it’s not like you can just cast it at the beginning of the day and forget about it like you can at high levels, as it only lasts a couple hours (2nd level now).
So I was thinking of something a little more offensive like Colorspray.