Doskius Steele, I can agree with you on almost everything you've said except for the "no" answer in part 2 regarding non magical light sources and your conclusive summary on same.
How do you reconcile this sentence from the Darkness spell description?
This darkness causes the illumination level in the area to drop one step
with this example sentence from every light source description in equipment? (i've used hooded lantern because I'm sick of using torch)
A hooded lantern sheds normal light in a 30-foot radius
Every argument so far has pointed to this sentence from the darkness spell description to say nonmagical light doesn't work.
Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness
Now to my understanding,
A) Given the equipment descriptions, the nonmagical light in question (the lantern exampled above) isn't increasing the light level because it the light source, ie. normal light. And therefore can only be reduced as per the individual spell.
B) If the specious argument about nonmagical light not working in darkness were correct then the sun would also be extinguished in an area of magical darkness which clearly isn't the case.
The meaning I see from the sentence
Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness
is that after a darkness spell has reduced the light level in a given area any attempt to increase that light level by nonmagical means will fail. As i've said before, whether that was the intent behind it I don't know but that is how it definitely reads.
Now if all the equipment entries said something like
"A hooded lantern increases the light level 2 steps up to a maximum of normal light in a 30-foot radius"
then it would solve the dilemma with nonmagical light sources completely but unfortunately it doesn't.
Also after a 100 different posts on the subject it'd be nice to hear a dev chime in to give us some idea of the intent. Or perhaps they're in as big a debate about this as we are.
While showering (shut up it happens) it occurred to me why i don't like the 5th light level explanation.
It doesn't explain why darkness wouldn't make a cave supernaturally dark.
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While showering (shut up it happens) it occurred to me why i don't like the 5th light level explanation.
It doesn't explain why darkness wouldn't make a cave supernaturally dark.
It doesn't create supernatural darkness. Not powerful enough. It just doesn't, and magic doesn't need logic, just clear rules.
Just spitballing ideas.
While showering (shut up it happens) it occurred to me why i don't like the 5th light level explanation.
It doesn't explain why darkness wouldn't make a cave supernaturally dark.
It doesn't create supernatural darkness. Not powerful enough. It just doesn't, and magic doesn't need logic, just clear rules.
Just spitballing ideas.
Not to discount the possibility that some caves deep beneath Golarion are not naturally supernaturally dark due to some undiscovered ore permeating its walls. :oP
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The meaning I see from the sentence
Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness
is that after a darkness spell has reduced the light level in a given area any attempt to increase that light level by nonmagical means will fail. As i've said before, whether that was the intent behind it I don't know but that is how it definitely reads.
EXACTLY!
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
EXACTLY!The meaning I see from the sentence
Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness
is that after a darkness spell has reduced the light level in a given area any attempt to increase that light level by nonmagical means will fail. As i've said before, whether that was the intent behind it I don't know but that is how it definitely reads.
I argue the other way, so EXACTLY WRONG!
BTW I'm so beyond seriously debating this dead horse.
It doesn't create supernatural darkness. Not powerful enough. It just doesn't, and magic doesn't need logic, just clear rules.While showering (shut up it happens) it occurred to me why i don't like the 5th light level explanation.
It doesn't explain why darkness wouldn't make a cave supernaturally dark.
I'm looking for consistent rules dam it! :)
As it is, For this conversation you need the illumination rules, and every light and dark spell up, because they all have their own rules. I bet if you posted a summary of how they interacted they would be longer than the rules for every light spell in the game.
Anyone manage to find rules on the dispelling a spell with its oppposite number rather than a dispel magic?
Doskius Steele, I can agree with you on almost everything you've said except for the "no" answer in part 2 regarding non magical light sources and your conclusive summary on same.
How do you reconcile this sentence from the Darkness spell description?
This darkness causes the illumination level in the area to drop one step
with this example sentence from every light source description in equipment? (i've used hooded lantern because I'm sick of using torch)
A hooded lantern sheds normal light in a 30-foot radius
Every argument so far has pointed to this sentence from the darkness spell description to say nonmagical light doesn't work.
Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness
I reconcile the statements very easily, by continuing to read the rest of the description of the Hooded Lantern: A hooded lantern sheds normal light in a 30-foot radius and increases the light level by one step for an additional 30 feet beyond that area (darkness becomes dim light and dim light becomes normal light). A hooded lantern does not increase the light level in normal light or bright light. A lantern burns for 6 hours on one pint of oil. You can carry a lantern in one hand.
The bolded segment is the one pertaining to this question. The lantern is described as producing two effects, shedding normal light in a given radius, and increasing light levels in an additional ring beyond that radius. In accordance with the description of the lantern and the description of Darkness, I find that if the lantern is more than 30 feet away from the darkness, it has no effect on the lighting in the area of darkness, and if it is closer (even inside), that is if the AoE of "normal light" generated by the lantern's first effect and the AoE from Darkness overlap, the Darkness effect reduces the light emitted by the lantern by one step from Normal to Dim.
EDIT: This does contradict my earlier statement and the algorithm I presented, in that Darkness cast onto a hooded lantern would result in a 20 foot radius of Dim light followed by a 10 foot right of normal light, followed by a 30 foot ring of adjusted lighting (assuming that the lantern is the only local source of light).
Other light sources contain similar text, describing an area of primary effect with a specific level of light and a secondary area of effect with a relative adjustment to light levels. (This has the effect, by the way, that two torches 60 feet apart have a continuous path of light between them that is Normal lighting.)
Once this two-stage description of the effects of light sources is appreciated, the meaning of the Darkness description becomes exceptionally clear. Darkness reduces the primary lighting provided by light sources by one step and negates the secondary relative lighting of light sources not derived from 3rd level or higher magic.
The reason that this statement, "Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness" doesn't negate the operation of the lantern completely is *because* the lantern both "sheds normal light in a 30 foot radius" (not described as an increase, therefore uneffected by this bolded text from the Darkness spell) and also "increases the light level by one step for an additional 30 feet beyond that area" (described an an increase, therefore negated by the Darkness spell). I do not disagree that the Lantern fails to produce normal lighting in an area of Darkness created by the spell, but the only text in the spell that applies to the 30 foot radius of normal light is the initial sentence "This darkness causes the illumination level in the area to drop one step", resulting in Dim light in the area of overlap.
It doesn't create supernatural darkness. Not powerful enough. It just doesn't, and magic doesn't need logic, just clear rules.While showering (shut up it happens) it occurred to me why i don't like the 5th light level explanation.
It doesn't explain why darkness wouldn't make a cave supernaturally dark.
I'm looking for consistent rules dam it! :)
As it is, For this conversation you need the illumination rules, and every light and dark spell up, because they all have their own rules. I bet if you posted a summary of how they interacted they would be longer than the rules for every light spell in the game.
Anyone manage to find rules on the dispelling a spell with its oppposite number rather than a dispel magic?
To the best of my knowledge, there are no "rules" dealing with the general case of dispelling a spell with another spell that isn't Dispel Magic, for the same reason that there are no general rules outside of the Dispel Magic text for dispelling spells: the spells are part of the rules. Therefore, while Dispel Magic can end most spells generically, if another spell is described as having the ability to dispel something, that spell has that ability, as with Daylight.
The reason that this statement, "Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness" doesn't negate the operation of the lantern completely is *because* the lantern both "sheds normal light in a 30 foot radius" (not described as an increase, therefore uneffected by this bolded text from the Darkness spell) and also "increases the light level by one step for an additional 30 feet beyond that area" (described an an increase, therefore negated by the Darkness spell). I do not disagree that the Lantern fails to produce normal lighting in an area of Darkness created by the spell, but the only text in the spell that applies to the 30 foot radius of normal light is the initial sentence "This darkness causes the illumination level in the area to drop one step", resulting in Dim light in the area of overlap.
Now we're in complete agreement.