Treasure in the Rise of the Runelords Adventure path


Rise of the Runelords

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

Hey folks.

I'm just here to seek a bit of advise, or to be corrected in case I've missed something.
I've been GM'ing through the first 3 of the ROTRL adventures, and things are progressing fairly well. We're about to start the 4th adventure.

However, it seems to me as if the PCs so far have been a bit shortchanged in the way of treasure. Now, my players haven't found everything that was there, but they got fairly close to that, but it still seems to be short of the mark.

Are the monsters throughout the adventures (like the Giants in Fortress of the Stone Giants) supposed to have treasure assigned to them, by the GM, as befits their Challenge Rating? Or has that been accounted for in the treasure that's handed out in the adventure already?

If it hasn't, it seems to me that I need to do a bit of tinkering, though upping Longtooth's Treasure Hoard will do nicely for that one, as it'll have a nice greedy draconic feel to it.

Any thoughts?

Edit: Never mind. I found the response I needed in another thread. I just didn't search hard enough for it: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/adventurePa th/runelords/questionAboutTreasureInRotR&page=1&source=search#0

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

Now with the correct link instead:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/adventurePa th/runelords/questionAboutTreasureInRotR

Sovereign Court

Curtisin wrote:

Now with the correct link instead:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/adventurePa th/runelords/questionAboutTreasureInRotR

Reply to my thread to see how to do links on these messageboards:

link

However, the full bag of goodies is only available to canny PCs as a lot comes in over-sized, under-sized or evil magic gear.

If your PCs aren''t selling this stuff and doing some crafting then it could be a bit low.

Look at their gear, compare to the PFcore and give some extra treasure if they need it.


I don't see it as an issue, but my group will flog everything that can't use, including anything masterwork, large and the like.

I've got 5 PC's, playing 3.5Ed, I've added no treasure to the AP, and they're kitted out to a reasonable level. They're half-way through FotSG now, level 11, and all got items to give +4 to their major stat, all melee have +2 weapons or similar, good to great ACs, a nice selection of other items covering at least half of their body slots, and still got enough to get essential wands (Cures, Invisibility and Fly being favourites)

I do have a rule that a positive Charisma mod gives +2%/-2% on selling and buying costs, from the normal of 50%/100%, to a max of selling for 60%, buying for 90%. The party sorceress does all the selling, so hits this maximum.

Also, anything not small or medium still can sell for 60%-75% of its adjusted cost as above. i.e. Galenmirs large +3 heavy pick sold for 7560gp, 18000 base (I've dropped the base item cost) * 0.75 (for large) * 0.6 (for the high Cha Sorc) = 7560.

In the sake of game balance, it works well, as the party is well geared, I no longer have to pull any punches. All the party deaths have been memorable as a result (one to Malfeshnekor, one to the Suicide Haunt and the last to Xanesha's spear during HMM)


Our group or DM must be doing something wrong.
We have a large group (8 players) and are at the end of HMM and about to start FotSG. Before Hook Mountian we were all 5th level and were lucky to have one or maybe two magic items a piece. My characters total wealth for a 5th level character was shy of 6,000 gps. Just enough to upgrade to full plate mail and a +2 cloak of charisma (Paladin naturally).
We seem to have level and treasure lag and more and more frequent character deaths. This first encounter in Hook Mountain Massacre did just about that, with half the group down and one dead. We've had 5 character deaths so far with many more in the future as we continue to lag.
The sample characters in the back of Fortress of the Stone Giants are level 10 and we are all level 8. We win fights through attrition rather than force.
Do not try at home kids...


MattW wrote:

Our group or DM must be doing something wrong.

We have a large group (8 players) and are at the end of HMM and about to start FotSG. Before Hook Mountian we were all 5th level and were lucky to have one or maybe two magic items a piece. My characters total wealth for a 5th level character was shy of 6,000 gps. Just enough to upgrade to full plate mail and a +2 cloak of charisma (Paladin naturally).
We seem to have level and treasure lag and more and more frequent character deaths. This first encounter in Hook Mountain Massacre did just about that, with half the group down and one dead. We've had 5 character deaths so far with many more in the future as we continue to lag.
The sample characters in the back of Fortress of the Stone Giants are level 10 and we are all level 8. We win fights through attrition rather than force.
Do not try at home kids...

If this is the case get prepared for some TPK goodness, because even at recommended level and decently appropriately geared and well diverse and hard team working, my players get frequent deaths because the baddies hit soooo hard and are just plain mean.

Sovereign Court

MattW wrote:

Our group or DM must be doing something wrong.

We have a large group (8 players) and are at the end of HMM and about to start FotSG. Before Hook Mountian we were all 5th level and were lucky to have one or maybe two magic items a piece. My characters total wealth for a 5th level character was shy of 6,000 gps. Just enough to upgrade to full plate mail and a +2 cloak of charisma (Paladin naturally).
We seem to have level and treasure lag and more and more frequent character deaths. This first encounter in Hook Mountain Massacre did just about that, with half the group down and one dead. We've had 5 character deaths so far with many more in the future as we continue to lag.
The sample characters in the back of Fortress of the Stone Giants are level 10 and we are all level 8. We win fights through attrition rather than force.
Do not try at home kids...

If four of the group sat the other side of the room and played a 1Gm+3PC game of another AP the remaining characters would have twice as much treasure and enough XP to hit level 10.

And the GM would have an easier job.

Might be a solution?


I'm running this AP for the second time. There's not a lot of loot and the campaign is pretty hard, but don't despair. I've had the temples of the "good" religions buy evil magic stuff from the PC's, so that it can be destroyed (someone on the boards recommended that approach and it worked fine...

GRU


Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

I think it is great that they are under-treasured. =) Easier to deal with than being over-treasured.

I would suggest allowing a period of time between HMM and FSG to allow them to craft/purchase stuff in Magnimar. Great opportunity to use some of the great tables in the GMG. If they are no where near Magnimar, I suggest a wondering gnome merchant.


Having only played Burnt Offerings and half of Skinsaw Murders, I have to ask: what were the authors thinking? The treasure in this adventure path makes no sense.

Nearly all of the treasure in Burnt Offerings is located at Thistletop. The Catacombs of Wrath has two scrolls and maybe two weapons, at most. If your PCs make "negotiations" with the goblins at Thistletop (as I've read on the boards) instead of cleaning the place out, your PCs will miss out on almost every gold piece possible. The PCs let Lyrie and Orik go, instead of arresting them and sending them to Magimar? They lose out on the only decent weapons, magic wand, and spellbook in the module. Sandpoint is a town, not a city, so both the reward for ending the goblin menace as well as any possible scrolls or healing is extremely low-level. Savah's Armory in Sandpoint (building #12) has one +1 repeating crossbow to its' fame, a weapon that requires a feat to use it. The Red Dog Smithy has nothing but a forge, and Bottled Solutions is "buyer beware".

My PC group has only made it to Foxglove Manor so far in the Skinsaw Murders, and our 6th-level cleric can't keep up with the plague or mold infections. Hey authors, if you want to tell a story about the house, drop a diary or something in the front lobby, don't depend upon a bunch of stained-glass windows to inform the PCs! We're too busy making saving throws in every room. The triple threat of haunted rooms, mold, and ghouls around the corner will overwhelm the party cleric pretty quick without magical backup or alternatives.

Nobody thought about helping the PCs from one module to another in this Adventure Path. Would it have killed you to drop a Wand of Cure Light Wounds in Thistletop, and maybe a few Scrolls of Remove Disease to help the PCs with the next module? Put them in Thassalonian if you insist, but realize most adventuring parties only carry one cleric, and he/she's usually not the scroll-making machine. Nothing says "you're useless" like having two survivors of ghoul fever in the cornfield or in the asylum succumb and become undead before your PC's eyes, such that the PCs have to "put them down" as they transform. Father Zantus in Sandpoint is level 4 - he should be cranking out potions and ordering scrolls from Magimar, at the very least.

And let's not forget putting the barghest, a mid-level threat, inside the hidden area within Thistletop for our less-than-fifth-level PCs. What's the treasure for taking out the potentially TPK'ing monster? A +2 Ring of Force Shield and a bunch of candles. Remind me to put you on my Christmas list. Thistletop as a statue's head could have been written better too - why is the "eyes" pool at the right ear, for instance?

Thistletop is barely survivable for a well-rounded, well-rested party (if they make their saves the yeth hounds, does a 3rd-level cleric have Silence prepared in advance every day?), but Skinsaw Murders punishes the PCs if they stay together (haunted house), or if they stay individually apart! (cornfield) There's nothing in the rooms that my friends and I have found so far except for haunted paintings, fireplaces, and enough mold to make a city health inspector retire. I know the old formula of "go up to the attic and then down to the basement", so I'm gritting my teeth as we play this module, but if the whole party gets infected with mold we're going to need some mid-to-high-level healing to just make it through another day.

It's been said if the party sells everything, including "evil" items, and has a crafter in the party, they make out OK with gold limits. Maybe. That means you've sacrificed one or two PCs in the party to being crafters instead of damage-dealers; how many players are willing to spend their leveling ladder getting the crafting feats to help everyone else out?

Here's a hint: if you have the PCs going from Sandpoint to Magimar so often, why not a decent map that shows the Lost Coast road between these two? We've only got the Hinterlands map and the great, big Varisian continent map to go on. The same goes for any means of walking or riding from Sandpoint to any other city on the map, even up the coast to visit the monks. That harbor in Sandpoint must be real busy with ships coming and going.

I've read other people taking parts of this Adventure Path wholesale and putting them in Greyhawk or homebrewed worlds. I can see why. Just from the first module-and-a-half I can see glaring inconsistencies and a message of "you're on your own with this one".

Now, some people may rebut me and claim no treasure/low treasure is more "real" than treasure lying around the place. I'm not asking for the gold piece trail of breadcrumbs, I'm asking for some continuity and mercy from the authors. The fact that the barghest couldn't leave the room was little consolation to the low-level PC getting a 80% hp hit in the first blow from the thing. The same goes for a PC forced to make a Will save, followed by a Fort save to avoid both a trapped room and a mold disease in a room of the haunted house. You want to know why so many parties burn down Foxglove Manor? It's the course of action with the least risk because there's no reward involved for going in every room of the house. Nobody in Sandpoint knows or cares about Foxglove Manor one way or another, so who's going to cry if the place turns into a matchbox? Make sacrifice worth the PC's while, or expect more "scorched earth" results. In fact, I would say that for most PCs the best course of action would be to burn down Foxglove Manor and then find a way underground, since there's nothing of value in the house.


My experience with Runelords was that usable treasure was pretty sparse - though I will admit that my group did miss a few spots where there was some pretty good treasure. My group took some actions that resulted in plotline changes - taking nearly a month off after warning their adversary of their presence but failing to deal with said adversary in a certain final battle in Magnimar can lead to some spectacular preparation - so there was some loot alterations that weren't available in the regular path.

Currently they carry very little equipment that they've acquired through adventuring. Most loot has been sold and the money used to pay the party's wizard in item creation.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If you find Thistletop and Foxglove Manor to be tough, just wait until you meet Xanesha :)

Sovereign Court

jhpace1 wrote:
Nearly all of the treasure in Burnt Offerings is located at Thistletop.

Go figure, the majority of the treasure is in the big dungeon that takes up half the adventure.

jhpace1 wrote:


The Catacombs of Wrath has two scrolls and maybe two weapons, at most.

It's meant for 2nd level PCs. There are scrolls, a wand, an 8000gp weapon, another magic weapn, etc etc. What, exactly, is poor about that?

jhpace1 wrote:


My PC group has only made it to Foxglove Manor so far in the Skinsaw Murders, and our 6th-level cleric can't keep up with the plague or mold infections. Hey authors, if you want to tell a story about the house, drop a diary or something in the front lobby, don't depend upon a bunch of stained-glass windows to inform the PCs! We're too busy making saving throws in every room. The triple threat of haunted rooms, mold, and ghouls around the corner will overwhelm the party cleric pretty quick without magical backup or alternatives.

Disease takes days, if not weeks, to incapacitate a character. It's not a priority while actually INSIDE the house. Even if they fail every disease save the place has, they have plenty of time to fix it later. The party cleric certainly shouldn't be trying to cure everyone while exploring the place.

jhpace1 wrote:
Father Zantus in Sandpoint is level 4 - he should be cranking out potions and ordering scrolls from Magimar, at the very least.

What makes you think he isn't? Sandpoint has a 1000gp limit, IIRC, so anything up to that should be available for purchase. It would be a waste of space to list every scroll, potion and wand available in every shop in town. You want a Wand of Cure Light Wounds? Go to Father Zantus and give him 750gp. Even for things he can't personally craft but still falls under the gp limit. There is a "UN of Religions" 2 days ride up the coast. Order it outta the catalog and have it delievered by the higher level clerics up there.

jhpace1 wrote:
Here's a hint: if you have the PCs going from Sandpoint to Magimar so often, why not a decent map that shows the Lost Coast road between these two? We've only got the Hinterlands map and the great, big Varisian continent map to go on. The same goes for any means of walking or riding from Sandpoint to any other city on the map, even up the coast to visit the monks. That harbor in Sandpoint must be real busy with ships coming and going.

It's a two day trip on a well patrolled road in a civilized area. What good would a map do, exactly?? Once the party leaves the Sandpoint/Magnimar area in book 3, there is a gazeteer of the region with a map showing more towns and roads and such. Why put that in the first books when it would take up space needed for more immediately relevant material??

jhpace1 wrote:
The fact that the barghest couldn't leave the room was little consolation to the low-level PC getting a 80% hp hit in the first blow from the thing.

What?? No consolation? How about the fact that the PC can leave the room with his remaining 20% hp? The barghest can't follow him, so shut the door and come back later to try again. It is a massive consolation that the enemy can't leave. The party can deal with him at their leisure, or not at all until they level up more.

jhpace1 wrote:
The same goes for a PC forced to make a Will save, followed by a Fort save to avoid both a trapped room and a mold disease in a room of the haunted house.

Would you rather they suffered the full effect of the haunt by failing just one save? The second save is for the character's benefit. It's a second chance. The nastiest haunt in the place gives 3 saves to avoid the worst possible result. Would you prefer 1 save or die?

jhpace1 wrote:
You want to know why so many parties burn down Foxglove Manor? It's the course of action with the least risk because there's no reward involved for going in every room of the house. Nobody in Sandpoint knows or cares about Foxglove Manor one way or another, so who's going to cry if the place turns into a matchbox?
Quote:

If they burn it down, they don't stop the murders they were sent to stop. And the party should have no way of knowing ahead of time whether or not there is any treasure in the house. Burning it down is about the dumbest thing I can imagine doing.

Nobody knows about about the Manor?? Then who is providing that info in the Gather Information table? Who had named it "The Misgivings" if not the locals? And once it's clear that a freakin' ravenous pack of ghouls is coming out of that place and eating farmers, do you really think none of the locals cares about it anymore?

If you don't like the mod, fine. But I think a lot of your criticisms are baseless, to say the least.

Sovereign Court

MattW wrote:

Before Hook Mountian we were all 5th level and were lucky to have one or maybe two magic items a piece. My characters total wealth for a 5th level character was shy of 6,000 gps. Just enough to upgrade to full plate mail and a +2 cloak of charisma (Paladin naturally).

The reward at the end of Skinsaw is 6000gp per character. If you are starting that mod with under 6000gp, you have missed every single piece of treasure up to that point.


Without getting personal, thanks for the replies but I still stand by what I said in my first post. Yes, I still want to play the RotR Adventure Path. The solution I hope to convince my GM for all my complaints is "time". Time inbetween the sections of each module to recover, sell, buy, and craft. With enough time and a working imagination on both the GM's and the players' part, Craft skills turn into gold pieces as well as magical items. Based on others' posts in the messageboards, there doesn't appear to be too much of a timetable in the Adventure Path, so a long recovery time inbetween modules, or even inbetween sections of a module, can fix almost any lack of supply or special item.

I'm a "calculate what you need beforehand" kind of guy, so I've got a spreadsheet of gold piece priorities for nearly all my personal PCs. We'll have to see just how available scrolls are in Magimar when we get there. I'm the crafter of the party (another typecast for our table), so I'll need lots of time to craft wands as well.

Sovereign Court

Magnimar in 3.5 edition was a Large City with a gp purchase limit of 40,000 gp. In Pathfinder, it is probably either 8,000 - 16,000gp. Anything up to that limit should be available. I can tell you now, the city write up in Pathfinder #2 doesn't have any preset shopping lists of items in it. There are 3 or 4 major churches and as many minor cults, there is a 15h level wizard running the Golemworks and lots of other single-digit NPCs mentioned in passing. There should be plenty of opportunity to buy whatever you need until your levels outpace those of the NPCs in the area.

Just like it should be in Sandpoint for items under 1000gp.


Well, I actually sat down and calculated my 6th-Level Sorcerer at 5,335.37 gold pieces' worth. No masterwork or better weapons, no armor, just the Sihedron Medallion, a few wands, a few scrolls, and Lyrie's spellbook. My adventuring party got every bit of the module save for the Howling Hole in Burnt Offerings, so the treasure was split 5 ways.

I'm reading good things about a possible 6,000 gp per PC at the end of Skinsaw Murders. Here's seeing if we actually get it or if there's a TPK before the end. I took Craft Wand instead of Magical Arms and Armor in the hopes the rest of the party can find or buy the arms & armor they need while I blast things with wands. I'll wait for MAA at level 9.


jhpace1 wrote:
I'm reading good things about a possible 6,000 gp per PC at the end of Skinsaw Murders. Here's seeing if we actually get it or if there's a TPK before the end. I took Craft Wand instead of Magical Arms and Armor in the hopes the rest of the party can find or buy the arms & armor they need while I blast things with wands. I'll wait for MAA at level 9.

Wow! You are really into crafting.

Nothing wrong with that.
It saves the character money, and it can be fun.
But no crafting feat should necessary.
Sandpoint is a town with a 800gp limit for buying items (under 3.5) - so the characters should be able to get any item worth up to that amount without leaving town.
You may want to roleplay it as placing an order which gets satisfied a few days later, but most such items should be available - and that includes wands of CLW at 750gp so there it no need for such items to appear in treasure make them available to the PCs.
Of course, logically most NPCs who can use and afford one should be carrying one.
Magnimar's item limit should satisfy just about any player's needs almost all the way through the AP.


pjackson wrote:

Wow! You are really into crafting.

Nothing wrong with that.
It saves the character money, and it can be fun.
But no crafting feat should necessary.

It's necessary due to the rest of the table being hack-and-slashers. Maybe that's too harsh. But none of them have taken up the crafting slack in any game that I can remember. It's also part of the GM's bias - I'm always looking for a portable forge in any campaign I play in. If Pathfinder or Wizard of the Coast ever came up with a "scroll-making kit" similar to the healing kit, it'd save me a lot of arguments. The Core book says it takes X amount of gold pieces to craft a wand or a wondrous item, and that you can do 1,000 gold piece equivalent of crafting a day. But when I try to buy this stuff "in advance", I get a blank look from my GM who says "You can only buy the item cost material when you are ready to make the item."

Case in point: I want to make a Wand of Magic Missile (1st). According to the Core, I need 375 gp in materials. Rather than break that cost down to the wood stick (1 cp), lacquer (5 gp), etc, I'm told to just spend 375 gp and spend a day crafting the wand. But then I'm required to find a magic shop in town and spend the gold in a roleplaying event with the store owner. 375 gp of roleplaying! When the average item in the store is worth 50 gp, tops.

It's my major complaint with the entire system that material costs are not rolled into the cost of the spell itself for items. Raise Dead costs 5,000gp in diamonds in addition to being a 5th-level spell, so a scroll of the same costs 6,125gp. 5,000gp would buy you a village in most 3.0+ settings, so where the heck is the De Beers company to sell me 5,000gp of diamonds? Wands and staffs are not magical capacitors, they actually have the spell imbued into them, but where do you find a piece of wood worth 375gp? I've tried to reason it out, saying that magical incense is enameled into the wood, etc, but "a wand with 0 charges is just a stick" is very painful to my pocketbook, in-game.

The worst is when the town's gp limit is under the amount of gp I need to craft an item, because my GM is ruling I can't purchase that much from the town's magic shop. I've noticed a distinct lack of mining operations so far in Rise of the Runelords. Where's all the dwarves selling adamantium, for instance?

When you write a module, authors, make sure you write a full economy to back it. Right now we have silvered hand axes that are irreplaceable because no one has put "silvered" into the weapon shop and forge descriptions, only "masterwork". Some GMs are quite literal, you know.

Sovereign Court

It's not the authors' faults if the DM won't let you buy things that as per the rules should be available. Expecting the adventures to have a detailed list of every single item in every single shop (and ignoring the entire equipment section of the Core Rulebook) is silly and asinine. Does your DM not let you buy a mug of ale at the Hagfish if it's not on some predetermined menu?


Twowlves wrote:


Magnimar in 3.5 edition was a Large City with a gp purchase limit of 40,000 gp. In Pathfinder, it is probably either 8,000 - 16,000gp. Anything up to that limit should be available.

I personally have always hated that assumption (which is, as you say, part of RAW) because it strikes me as absurd on many levels. Players will generally assume that if an item is readily available, it must also be available in quantity. If there's a 100% chance you can walk into Sandpoint at any time and buy a Potion of Cure Serious Wounds, and there's no limit to the number of individuals that can do so, it follows (many players will argue) that you should be able to buy 2 or 6 or 20 Potions of Cure Serious Wounds at a time.

I'm fine with the existence of magic item shops, but I really hate treating them like corner convenience stores ("Hey, I'm going to run down to 7-11 and pick up a wand of magic missles, some +3 armor and a dagger of venom. You want anything?") I really feel they should be treated as specialty shops that handle most of their business as special order. How many crafters are going to shell out 6,200gp to craft a Staff of Healing on the off chance someone will wander in to buy it? How many of those that do will be able to continue to stock their shelves before that Staff is sold? It was even more ridiculous pre-Pathfinder, when item crafting also cost XP.

(Yes, I'm aware that fantasy RPG economics will never make sense, and No, I don't want to create rules for stocking item shops. A DM-set precent chance for a given item to be in stock, or a randomly determined inventory of items on hand at a given time works just fine.)

Twowlves wrote:


Expecting the adventures to have a detailed list of every single item in every single shop (and ignoring the entire equipment section of the Core Rulebook) is silly and asinine.

I agree completely. But IIRC there's no mention of any magic item shop in Magimar, even in passing, much less a general description. I'm guessing the CEO of the Golemworks has better things to do than drop everything to craft me a +1 flaming keen rapier [pre-Pathfinder], assuming he even has the requisite feat to do so[/pre-PFRPG].


Damon Griffin wrote:
If there's a 100% chance you can walk into Sandpoint at any time and buy a Potion of Cure Serious Wounds, and there's no limit to the number of individuals that can do so, it follows (many players will argue) that you should be able to buy 2 or 6 or 20 Potions of Cure Serious Wounds at a time.

And the problem with that is.... what, exactly?

Sovereign Court

Damon Griffin wrote:


(Yes, I'm aware that fantasy RPG economics will never make sense, and No, I don't want to create rules for stocking item shops. A DM-set precent chance for a given item to be in stock, or a randomly determined inventory of items on hand at a given time works just fine.)

Awesome, I'm glad you feel that way. Because that's exactly how it's handled in Pathfinder now. A base 75% chance for any given item under the gp limit, with a random assortment of other things that are supposed to be pre-determined by random die rolls on the magic item charts.

Twowlves wrote:


Expecting the adventures to have a detailed list of every single item in every single shop (and ignoring the entire equipment section of the Core Rulebook) is silly and asinine.

I agree completely. But IIRC there's no mention of any magic item shop in Magimar, even in passing, much less a general description. I'm guessing the CEO of the Golemworks has better things to do than drop everything to craft me a +1 flaming keen rapier [pre-Pathfinder], assuming he even has the requisite feat to do so[/pre-PFRPG].

Magnimar is just under the "Metropolis" size threshhold. I cannot imagine a fantasy city in a more-or-less generic fantasy RPG world with that many people NOT having a place to engage in magic item commerce. Just because the brief city write-up doesn't mention places to buy items doesn't mean they are not assumed to exist. That CEO of the Golemworks probably is too busy to custom make magic swords, but he isn't the only crafter on site, and his business explicitly IS custom magic item creation, albeit mainly constructs.

Dozens of other cities exist in Golarion that have nothing more than a name printed in bold, are we assume you can't buy anything from the Equipment chapter of the core rules in one of these cities because there isn't a detailed list of shops and their inventory?


Twowlves wrote:


And the problem with that is.... what, exactly?

The problem is that you set yourself up for PCs arguing they can buy any quantity they like of any and all items under the price limit, and leave Sandpoint -- a town of ~1200 people -- with a wagonload of Cure Serious Wound potions, Wands of Magic Missile, Wands of Cure Light Wounds, Potions of Invisibility and a lifetime supply of Feather Tokens -- and just who had time to do all this item crafting since the PCs cleaned out the same town's magical inventory a month before?

Twowlves wrote:


Awesome, I'm glad you feel that way. Because that's exactly how it's handled in Pathfinder now. A base 75% chance for any given item under the gp limit, with a random assortment of other things that are supposed to be pre-determined by random die rolls on the magic item charts.

A base 75% seems way high, though. There's not that much difference in saying "all items under any given settlement's price limit will be available" and "in any given settlement, three-quarters of all appropriately priced magic items in the CRB are available."

At the very least, available ought to come in two flavors: off the shelf and special order (which will involve the full time to craft and may also involve waiting for other special orders to be completed. The base chance for off the shelf items should be much lower than the base chance for special orders, regardless of settlement size.

And DMs can do that themselves, it doesn't require any RAW revision, just a simple house rule.

Twowlves wrote:


Just because the brief city write-up doesn't mention places to buy items doesn't mean they are not assumed to exist.

Okay, yes, that is a fair statement. It does sometimes feel odd that module writers will go to great lengths to describe inns, taverns and brothels, all of which much also be assumed for any city of a certain size, and make no mention at all of magic item shops which will be of at least as much interest to PCs.

Twowlves wrote:
Dozens of other cities exist in Golarion that have nothing more than a name printed in bold, are we assume you can't buy anything from the Equipment chapter of the core rules in one of these cities because there isn't a detailed list of shops and their inventory?

Again, not asking for a detailed business directory or a full disclosure of inventory, just a better note than "we're not giving you any hint about the number or quality of any magic shops in this settlment, just assume you can buy anything you want, and as much or as many of that thing as you want, below a given price."

More importantly, I really don't think you can make a fair comparison between magic items and most mundane equipment. Crafting magic items requires a suite of special skills and results in products that cater to a relatively small group: organizations or very wealthy individuals (including temporarily wealthy adventurers.) A crafter can one work on one magic item at a time and is very limited in how that work can be interrupted.

The Craft skill can be used untrained, which means that the vast majority of items in the Equipment list can literally be made by anyone, and the majority of them fall within the affordable price range of non-adventurers. Mundane items can sometiems be mass-produced, or crafted over time with interruptions being a non-issue other than moving back the completion date.

Naturally mundane items will be much more readily available.

Sovereign Court

Damon Griffin wrote:
Twowlves wrote:


And the problem with that is.... what, exactly?
The problem is that you set yourself up for PCs arguing they can buy any quantity they like of any and all items under the price limit, and leave Sandpoint -- a town of ~1200 people -- with a wagonload of Cure Serious Wound potions, Wands of Magic Missile, Wands of Cure Light Wounds, Potions of Invisibility and a lifetime supply of Feather Tokens -- and just who had time to do all this item crafting since the PCs cleaned out the same town's magical inventory a month before?

Whoa, wait a minute, that's not me you are quoting there.

For the record, I don't like the concept of Magic Item K-Marts either, but that doesn't mean I'm going to hamstring my players when they want a potion of cure light wounds (or 4) or a mithril chain shirt either.

Damon Griffin wrote:
Twowlves wrote:


Awesome, I'm glad you feel that way. Because that's exactly how it's handled in Pathfinder now. A base 75% chance for any given item under the gp limit, with a random assortment of other things that are supposed to be pre-determined by random die rolls on the magic item charts.
A base 75% seems way high, though. There's not that much difference in saying "all items under any given settlement's price limit will be available" and "in any given settlement, three-quarters of all appropriately priced magic items in the CRB are available."

It's a huge difference! It's a difference of 25%!

All kidding aside, it means 1 time in 4 that one special item you just gotta have won't be available. Ouch.

Damon Griffin wrote:
Twowlves wrote:


Just because the brief city write-up doesn't mention places to buy items doesn't mean they are not assumed to exist.

Okay, yes, that is a fair statement. It does sometimes feel odd that module writers will go to great lengths to describe inns, taverns and brothels, all of which much also be assumed for any city of a certain size, and make no mention at all of magic item shops which will be of at least as much interest to PCs.

I somewhat agree here, in that every write-up of a location that is meant to be a base of operations should be written with players in mind. Stat up the place they stay, where they get potions, where they get scrolls, ink for scribing spells into spell books, the churches they get healing and the dead raised, etc etc as well as the taverns and brothels etc.

Note that they did this when they wrote up Sandpoint, assuming that the clerical items would come from the Cathedral, there is a potion/poison shop in town, a curio shop with magic items in it, an armory with magic weapons, etc etc. They mostly don't have detailed lists of inventory, but it should be obvious where to go to get what you need, under the limit of course.

Damon Griffin wrote:

Again, not asking for a detailed business directory or a full disclosure of inventory, just a better note than "we're not giving you any hint about the number or quality of any magic shops in this settlment, just assume you can buy anything you want, and as much or as many of that thing as you want, below a given price."

More importantly, I really don't think you can make a fair comparison between magic items and most mundane equipment. Crafting magic items requires a suite of special skills and results in products that cater to a relatively small group: organizations or very wealthy individuals (including temporarily wealthy adventurers.) A crafter can one work on one magic item at a time and is very limited in how that work can be interrupted.

You aren't asking for this, but the poster I was replying to stated specifically that they were clinging to a silver hand axe because his DM wouldn't let them buy anything else silvered because the detailed shops don't specifically call them out as in the inventory, only "masterwork". He was chastising the authors for not writing up detailed lists that included things like "silver dagger" or "adamantine longsword", because his DM wouldn't let them purchase these items in a city of over 16,000 residents. That's absurd.

Now having said all that, I am one of those that does miss the way things were handled in 1st ed AD&D, in that PC crafting magic items was nearly unheard of, and the items you got were hand selected by the DM and not available in stores, except under the most extreme circumstances. However, that genie is out of the bottle and I don't think the majority of players or DMs of 3.X/Pathfinder want it put back.


Twowlves wrote:


Whoa, wait a minute, that's not me you are quoting there.

Oops. My cut'n'paste fail.

For the record, I don't like the concept of Magic Item K-Marts either, but that doesn't mean I'm going to hamstring my players when they want a potion of cure light wounds (or 4) or a mithril chain shirt either.

Twowlves wrote:


All kidding aside, it means 1 time in 4 that one special item you just gotta have won't be available. Ouch.

Won't be available without some effort on the party's part. With PFRPG, item crafting is easier than ever, and PCs get more feat slots than before. Why expect NPCs to not only do all the work, but somehow anticipate your every need so that the items are ready when you walk in their door?

I've got what I consider to be an odd group in my RotR game: six PCs, five of whom are 'casters of some stripe. Only the Cleric has taken any crafting feats, and she was 7th level before she crafted anything beyond a potion or scroll.

Twowlves wrote:


I am one of those that does miss the way things were handled in 1st ed AD&D, in that PC crafting magic items was nearly unheard of, and the items you got were hand selected by the DM and not available in stores, except under the most extreme circumstances. However, that genie is out of the bottle and I don't think the majority of players or DMs of 3.X/Pathfinder want it put back.

Well, 1st Ed never made sense to me given that you had to be an 18th L Wizard to create permanent miscellaneous magic items, and it didn't seem like there should have been a sufficiently large number of those in history to account for all the loot lying around waiting to be collected.

It's possible that with PFRPG's changes atop what 3.x was already allowing, the pendulum has moved too far in the other direction. More 'caster classes than not among the Base/Core lists in the CRB and APG; a Master Craftsman feat that allows magic item creation without the Item Crafting feats; no XP required to craft; accepting DC increases to waive normal requirements for magical crafting altogether; and simply allowing miscellaneuous magic/wondrous items to be crafted 15 levels earlier than before.

But no, I don't want to bottle that particular genie again.


Damon Griffin wrote:
The problem is that you set yourself up for PCs arguing they can buy any quantity they like of any and all items under the price limit, and leave Sandpoint -- a town of ~1200 people -- with a wagonload of Cure Serious Wound potions, Wands of Magic Missile, Wands of Cure Light Wounds, Potions of Invisibility and a lifetime supply of Feather Tokens -- and just who had time to do all this item crafting since the PCs cleaned out the same town's magical inventory a month before?

At the risk of repeating myself, I still must ask- what's the problem with that?

There's nothing saying that magic items come from nowhere, and there's nothing saying that you can't impose time limits on bought magic items (specifically is a large order was just processed). Any situation that sounds like abuse has to first go through you- the DM- which is what differentiates D&D from a computer game. Just because the rules say something doesn't mean you should ignore any and all issues that may come up because of it. When it comes to having things make sense, once again, it all goes through you, and no rule is going to trump that, ever. For example, there's no rule saying (unless I'm mistaken) what penalties you accrue when you don't sleep. Does that mean that you don't ever need to sleep? If a player says, "My character has never slept and is never going to sleep unless magically compelled," it would have to go through you, the DM, before it becomes true, correct? It's the same issue here.

If, however, it's an issue of balance, then you are wrong. If the PCs have money, and they are in a settlement with a gp limit higher than that of the item they want to buy, there shouldn't be a limit on them buying multiples of that item unless there's extenuating circumstances. Nobody's treating D&D like a computer game, and if they are, you should kindly correct them.


GRU wrote:

I'm running this AP for the second time. There's not a lot of loot and the campaign is pretty hard, but don't despair. I've had the temples of the "good" religions buy evil magic stuff from the PC's, so that it can be destroyed (someone on the boards recommended that approach and it worked fine...

GRU

This is how I (mostly) ran it too. Though the temples often "traded" an equivalent item cost for the item destroyed. This gave the PCs a chance to get that Cure Potion or Reincarnation Scroll (or Restoration Scroll) they needed.

For the actual ROTR game, I did do a few side quests (I used Into the Haunted Woods as a pre-game, with a few other side quests to Chopper's Hill at level 2 and a trip to Wolf's Ear between ROTR 1 and 2.)

The party has 6 characters, and two are crafters (Wizard and Hedge Witch), so they have some nice potions. And ITHW gives the option for some low level MI as well.

It's been a little hard to judge the total party wealth, as we've had 6 character deaths (4 or 5 from player impulsiveness or an ID10T error) and a few of the more creative players CREATED a side quest or two through RP that led to some small $$.

After SSM, we now have 6 characters...4 are L6 and 2 are L5. And nobody died fighting Xanesha...

As for the OP party $ split. First of all, you ended up with ~5.5K after splitting the party $$ 5 ways. ROTR is designed for 4 players, so the GM should have upped the treasure. (I had to for 6).

And it also sounds like your GM isn't doing enough prepwork for your group. A GM should have a list of available common MI...it doesnt take long to do and the new Gamemastery guide makes it even easier....

Paizo Employee Creative Director

The way that magic item shops work in the game is a highly debated topic that GMs and players tend to get really passionate about. As evidenced exactly in this thread.

With Pathfinder, we did our best to lay out a good middle-of-the-road way to handle the buying and selling of magic items, and in some adventures we go as far as to specifically list the items available for purchase. But in most cases, we do not do this, both because it takes up a lot of space and (more) because we'd rather leave that determination of what is and isn't for sale to the GM.

We DO assume that in an AP, characters are periodically allowed to either craft items or (more commonly) buy and sell items. If a GM wants to run a game where it's very difficult to buy magic items, he needs to do two things—adjust the adventures to compensate (since we assume the PCs have standard levels of magic for each level), or customize the treasure in the adventures so that the magic that the PCs find is stuff they can use. If you have a party of all rogues, putting in cleric or wizard treasure is lame.

Also: Just because we don't list specific magic item shops in Magnimar doesn't mean there ARE none. The fact that there are shops where you can buy magic items in Sandpoint, a town that's less than 10% the size of Magnimar, that should imply that there are also shops that sell magic items in Magnimar. Furthermore, the fact that we bother listing a high base value for items in Magnimar pretty much proves the presence of magic items for sale, since there's not a hell of a lot in the game that costs more than 2,000 gp that isn't magic.

Sovereign Court

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As a completely off topic tangent, this is how I'm running things in this AP with regards to the magic item trade.

Father Zantus has requested and recieved special permission from Windsong Abbey to put a bounty on "evil" items, including some mundane items (Stalker's Masks, masterwork dogslicers, giant-sized magic/MW items). He will buy them and see that they are dealt with. Likewise he is able to "special order" clerical/divine magic items from the Abbey with the appropriate turn-around time (4 days in transit, 1 day/100gp value). After the party completes book 2, Magnimar will have a similar deal in place for crafting most anything else up to 16,000gp in value.

Furthermore, I am trying a little house rule/flavor tweaking for this new (to us) campaign world. Anyone with a craft feat can "deconstruct" an item of that type and produce an ounce of a golden fluorescent liquid that is essentially "ethillion" (from part 5 Sins of the Saviors, o nly it holds gp value instead of xp value). This stuff is the "essence of magic" and can be used as "liquid gold" to meet the costs of magic item creation. You can get 500gp worth of ethillion for every 1000gp worth of market value of an item (the same as if you sold it). This way, item crafters don't have to literally sell an item, they can distill the magic back out of it and recycle it into new items. The fundamental economics of the transaction are the same (find another Ring of Protection +1 you don't need? don't sell it for 500gp, unmake it and get 500gp worth of "magic" to use in making those Boots of Speed that you do need).

IMC, we have 5 players and all of them have some kind of casting ability (cleric, wizard, bard, ranger and druid). They are approaching the levels where they are considering taking some item creation feats, but they never had a doubt that they would have to be proactive about arming themselves with the items they want and need. Especially when their wish lists start going over 16,000gp for an item.


James Jacobs wrote:

If you have a party of all rogues, putting in cleric or wizard treasure is lame.

And I agree, this by itself is an excellent reason for not itemizing available magic items for sale at any given location.

James Jacobs wrote:


Just because we don't list specific magic item shops in Magnimar doesn't mean there ARE none.

Yep, I conceded that point up-thread. Shouldn't have been part of my argument in the first place.

James Jacobs wrote:
...the fact that we bother listing a high base value for items in Magnimar pretty much proves the presence of magic items for sale, since there's not a hell of a lot in the game that costs more than 2,000 gp that isn't magic.

Now, this right here is where I seem to be failing to make myself understood by most people (and not only in this thread): I have no problem with the presence of magic items for sale, nor with shops that exist for that purpose. My issue is with the twin implications of how [I believe] the GP limit is currently used under RAW:

(1) if a city's GP limit is 40,000gp then all Minor* magic items of that price or less will always (in 3.5, or apprarently 75% of the time under PFRPG) be available in that city, and in unlimited quantity;

(2) no single item with a base price of 40,001gp or more will ever be obtainable "off the shelf".

*A randomly determined number of Medium and possibly Major items is also available depending on city size. The value of these is also capped at 40,000 in my example here, correct?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Correct.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Damon Griffin wrote:

My issue is with the twin implications of how [I believe] the GP limit is currently used under RAW:

(1) if a city's GP limit is 40,000gp then all Minor* magic items of that price or less will always (in 3.5, or apprarently 75% of the time under PFRPG) be available in that city, and in unlimited quantity;

Note that in PF, the base value for Magnimar would be 8000 gp (possibly higher if you use the city rules in Gamemastery Guide*), so the limits have dropped dramatically.

One way to handle requests to buy multiple potions/swords/whatevers would be to roll for each one, until you fail a roll. Then they are out of stock.

That would make the chances of getting 60 potions of CSW are (0.75)^60, or 3.2e-8, which is .0000032%, if I haven't missed an order of magnitude or three.

*BTW, I thought it was s weird that there were so many ways in the GMG to raise the base value of a settlement, and few or no ways to lower it. There are no poor cities, apparently. But I should probably go look for threads about that . . .

Damon Griffin wrote:

*A randomly determined number of Medium and possibly Major items is also available depending on city size. The value of these is also capped at 40,000 in my example here, correct?

Using the PF rules, no, the additional random items are not capped at the settlement's base value. As a matter of fact, when rolling the additional items, you are supposed to reroll any whose value falls below the community's base value.

So, for example, for Magnimar, they would have 4d4 minor items, 3d4 medium items, and 2d4 major items, none of which should be worth less than 8000 gp.

(You will be rolling those 4d4 minor items for a long time, as very few minor items are worth more thank 8k gp. Especially since the most likely minor items are overwhelmingly potions & scrolls, capped at 2nd level & 3rd level spells respectively, which are pretty much never going to get near 8k gp.)

FWIW, this is what I rolled for Magnimar:

Spoiler:

Minor Items (note that I gave up rolling on a bunch of these, and just picked some odd add-ons)
+1 champion glamered blueshine full plate (blueshine is from Magic Item Compendium)
belt of giant champions +2 (as belt of giant strength +2, muleback cords, & belt of ultimate athleticism from MIC)
boots of mountain striding and springing (also give +4 CMD to resist tripping, bull rush, and act as boots of the mountain king from MIC)
necklace of fireballs (type IV)
periapt of health
ring of chameleon power
wand of cure moderate wounds (50 chg, CL 10)
wand of false life (50 chg, CL 10)
wand of magic missile (50 chg, CL 9)
wand of scorching ray (50 chg, CL 11)

Medium Items
+2 improved shadow improved slick electricity resistance 10 light fortification mobility mithral shirt (mobility from MIC)
+3 light fortification heavy steel shield
+2 everbright spell-storing greatsword
+3 flaming bastard sword
ring of invisibility
rod of empower metamagic
rod of silent metamagic
wand of lightning bolt (50 chg, CL 7)
wand of call lightning (50 chg, CL 6)
wand of haste (50 chg, CL 8)

Major Items
+5 bastard sword
manual of gainful exercise +5
ring of wizardry II
rod of quicken metamagic
staff of illumination


coyote6 wrote:

Note that in PF, the base value for Magnimar would be 8000 gp (possibly higher if you use the city rules in Gamemastery Guide*), so the limits have dropped dramatically.

One way to handle requests to buy multiple potions/swords/whatevers would be to roll for each one, until you fail a roll. Then they are out of stock.

Ah. Okay, apparently I just took the 40,000gp limit from the (3.5) writeup of Magnimar in the module and failed to notice that in doing so I referenced the wrong row on Table 15-1.

I keep telling myself and my players: make no assumptions about what's the same and what's different in PFRPG (especially since we bypassed 3,5 and went straight from 3.0 to PFRPG) -- and I keep making assumptions anyway.

coyote6 wrote:


Using the PF rules, no, the additional random items are not capped at the settlement's base value. As a matter of fact, when rolling the additional items, you are supposed to reroll any whose value falls below the community's base value.

So, for example, for Magnimar, they would have 4d4 minor items, 3d4 medium items, and 2d4 major items, none of which should be worth less than 8000 gp.

I must have been even less clear in my earlier posts than I thought, because I believe James just told me the 40,000gp (8000gp) cap does apply.

This post has been extremely helpful, if only to point out that I need to read the relevant sections of the CRB and GMG closely tonight, as my PCs will be shopping in Magnimar this weekend before heading out to Fort Rannick.


Twowlves wrote:
You aren't asking for this, but the poster I was replying to stated specifically that they were clinging to a silver hand axe because his DM wouldn't let them buy anything else silvered because the detailed shops don't specifically call them out as in the inventory, only "masterwork". He was chastising the authors for not writing up detailed lists that included things like "silver dagger" or "adamantine longsword", because his DM wouldn't let them purchase these items in a city of over 16,000 residents. That's absurd.

Finally something I can reply to. (And thanks to Mr. James Jacobs in the above posts for his participation.)

I'm playing with some rather literal-minded GMs. No, I'm not asking for an actual "does and does not" list of magic items. Maybe I should be the one to pressure the GMs to follow the spirit of the rules when deciding if healing potions or wands are available at Sandpoint or Magimar. I've been playing a low/no-magic campaign so long, it's affecting my character rollup (I play the arcane crafter nearly every game). But I'm also the peacemaker of the group, and as such I usually resort to rules lawyering for item creation on the fly, rather than looking for the magic shop in town.

Our table has several more nights playing the Skinsaw Murders before we go back to a homebrew world. I'll see we either end up in Sandpoint or Magimar, and how much gold pieces my character can spend getting his base wealth level up to par at sixth level.


Results after re-reading the relevant bits in the CRB and looking over the random item tables in GMG. I decided to use the GMG tables but ignore any roll that indicated an item that was both non-magical and not masterwork.

The Loot:

Minor – 4d4 items of 8000gp or less
Masterwork buckler 165gp
Masterwork splint mail 350gp
Masterwork hide armor 165gp
Full plate +1 2650gp
Masterwork composite shortbow (darkwood) 405gp
Masterwork arrows (20) 121gp
Masterwork short spear 301gp
Masterwork crossbow bolts (10) (silver) 63gp
Masterwork warhammer 312gp
Potion of Bull’s Strength (CL 3) 300gp
Potion of Bull’s Strength (CL 3) 300gp
(arcane) Scroll of Protection from Evil (CL 1) 25gp
(arcane) Scroll of Phantom Trap (CL 3) 200gp
(divine) Scroll of Summon Monster II (CL 3) 150gp
Pipes of Sounding 1800gp
Elemental Gem (fire) 2250gp

Medium – 3d4 items of over 8000gp
Masterwork Full plate (mithral) 10,500gp
Bastard sword of mighty cleaving +1 8335gp
Heavy wooden shield +2 with light fortification 9157gp
Heavy wooden shield +3 9157gp
Heavy steel shield +4 with light fortification (mithral) 26,020gp
Punching dagger +2 (adamantine) 11,002gp
Wand of Dominate Animal (CL 5) 11,250gp
Wand of Rage (CL 5) 11,250gp
Wand of Greater Magic Fang (CL 5) 11,250gp
Wand of Glyph of Warding (CL 5) 21,250gp

Major – 2d4 items of over 8000gp
(exotic weapon) Elven curve blade +3 18,380gp
Dimensional Shackles 28,000gp
Amulet of Mighty Fists +4 80,000gp
Wand of Black Tentacles 21,000gp
Amulet of Natural Armor +4 32,000gp
Cloak of Resistance +5 25,000gp
Scarab of Protection 38,000gp


Speaking of selling treasure, who would buy large magical weapons and armor you take of ogres and giants? As far as I know there's no decent way to "shrink" them, and there aren't exactly many good-/neutral-aligned creatures close to the major cities, with ready cash.

Spoiler:

And even if there were, just because it's magical doesn't make a ratty hide armor a good deal. Especially if the source of the hide is a bit dubious… Ogre hooks don't fare a lot better.


mhd wrote:

Speaking of selling treasure, who would buy large magical weapons and armor you take of ogres and giants? As far as I know there's no decent way to "shrink" them, and there aren't exactly many good-/neutral-aligned creatures close to the major cities, with ready cash.

** spoiler omitted **

I definitely let my players know that if they sold giant arms and armor, they could expect that they would end up in the hands of giants.

IMO, this AP is greatly improved by giving the players a means to transfer magic from one item to the other. Nothing so modular as FF "materia", but relaxing things a little is okay. I basically offer a discount when crafting items if they can destroy an item with a similar power in the crafting process.


mhd wrote:

Speaking of selling treasure, who would buy large magical weapons and armor you take of ogres and giants? As far as I know there's no decent way to "shrink" them, and there aren't exactly many good-/neutral-aligned creatures close to the major cities, with ready cash.

** spoiler omitted **

Oh, that's right, Large magic armor doesn't resize itself to fit a Medium character, does it? My PCs are destined for some disappointment in terms of loot for the next several battles.

This isn't an issue for belts and such, is it? Mammy Graul's "amulet of health" would normally exist as a belt of mighty constitution under PFRPG, but that'd be a really long belt.

Sovereign Court

Technically you can still get away with Dispel Magic followed by Polymorph Any Object to resize anything you like.

Expensive, but possible.

mhd wrote:
Speaking of selling treasure, who would buy large magical weapons and armor you take of ogres and giants? As far as I know there's no decent way to "shrink" them, and there aren't exactly many good-/neutral-aligned creatures close to the major cities, with ready cash.

That's why I had good-aligned organizations put a "bounty" on those items. Coincidentally, the value of the "bounty" exactly equals the selling price for that particular magic item....

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Twowlves wrote:


That's why I had good-aligned organizations put a "bounty" on those items. Coincidentally, the value of the "bounty" exactly equals the selling price for that particular magic item....

I ended up doing this as well. They gave all items of a dubious nature to the church of Sarenrae (they have a party member who's a Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge of Sarenrae so they've good relations with the church), who'd then reward them for handing in the items. It's also a good way to be able to drop hints about the evil nature of certain items like the Skinsaw masks (perhaps they even know who the human skin came from), though in the case of the Mask that Justice Ironbriar was using, the Dwarven Barbarian decided to keep the Mask because it was "talkin' to her funny"...


Damon Griffin wrote:
This isn't an issue for belts and such, is it? Mammy Graul's "amulet of health" would normally exist as a belt of mighty constitution under PFRPG, but that'd be a really long belt.

Well, if I remember correctly, the rules say that it shouldn't be a problems, as magic items are adjustable, either by their natural properties (folding etc.) or by magic. Doesn't say that it happens automatically, though, which is where my rat bastard DM nature comes into play…

I made it a belt, so now the players got a looong "sash" made out of some tacky flowery fabric…

As for item "bounties", I did that for some of the skinsaw stuff, as the players made contact with a church during those events (Pholtus). But I don't see a reason why – or any other institution I can come up with – would bay for the ogre arms & armor. I don't like that handwavey stuff, just to keep the silly 3E item economy alive (never mind that even within the rules, we'd be way above spending limits for most cities). I'd much rather have the players destroy it, and maybe give them enough other stuff in turn, or – as mentioned above – let them use it to make their own items, e.g. giant-bane weapons made from actual giant weapons…


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
mhd wrote:
As for item "bounties", I did that for some of the skinsaw stuff, as the players made contact with a church during those events (Pholtus). But I don't see a reason why – or any other institution I can come up with – would bay for the ogre arms & armor. I don't like that handwavey stuff, just to keep the silly 3E item economy alive (never mind that even within the rules, we'd be way above spending limits for most cities). I'd much rather have the players destroy it, and maybe give them enough other stuff in turn, or – as mentioned above – let them use it to make their own items, e.g. giant-bane weapons made from actual giant weapons…

Well, there are some good and neutral giants. Maybe the stuff gets sold on to storm giants who equip their kids with it? ;)

In my 3.5e game, I figured a lot of stuff ended up being sold off-world, via mercanes, clerics of Zilchus with plane shift, or the like. Golarion doesn't seem to have quite the level of Planescape-ness, at least not my version of it, so I don't know how I'm going to work it yet.

Sovereign Court

In the real world, police departments don't use or resell the guns they get in their firearm buy-back programs, they slag them to get them off the streets. There is no reason a powerful government or church in a fantasy world wouldn't do the same.


Money is always a good reason. Buy-back programs are a *very* civilized approach, so you'd need a very rich, very peace-loving church for something like this. And even then, paying 4000 gp for a +2 weapon seems a bit ludicrous, compared to the base price of the weapon and what little more the magical enhancements bring. Churches have spending limits, too. Someone has to pay for all that diamond dust… I'd understand it for clearly evil artifacts, which are a blight upon the earth yadda yaddah.

What's more likely to happen is bounties on the evil creatures themselves. Much cheaper and you solve it at the root of the problem. Ogre hooks don't kill people, ogres do.

Sovereign Court

The church of Abadar has a high(-ish) level priest in Magnimar, and Windsong Abbey has dozens of faiths under it's roofs. Both fill that criteria of rich, lawful and peace-loving churches with a vested interest in such a program. And the churches don't pay for the diamonds for Raise Dead and Ressurrections, PCs do.

While it may be more practical to have a bounty on the heads of giants and ogres, it doesn't solve the metagme problem of removing magic unusable by the party from the system and replacing it with cash that IS.


Wasn't there a 3.0 clause that tried to say all magic items re-sized themselves to the owner/wielder? So if a halfling picked up a longsword, it became a halfling-sized longsword. The same with armor. It was made part of the magic +1 bonus itself. Maybe I'm just mis-remembering.

But, yeah, a rewrite in a Core v.2.0 reprint would take Shrink Item and make an "instant" duration for objects to be re-sized from Large to Medium, or Medium to Small. We need to have a way to Expand a Small to Medium object as well.

Sovereign Court

Not all magic items. Just clothing, rings, amulets etc and some armor.


Twowlves wrote:
While it may be more practical to have a bounty on the heads of giants and ogres, it doesn't solve the metagme problem of removing magic unusable by the party from the system and replacing it with cash that IS.

Which is one of the problems of the 3E item economy. Way too much metagaming involved.


Twowlves wrote:
MattW wrote:

Before Hook Mountian we were all 5th level and were lucky to have one or maybe two magic items a piece. My characters total wealth for a 5th level character was shy of 6,000 gps. Just enough to upgrade to full plate mail and a +2 cloak of charisma (Paladin naturally).

The reward at the end of Skinsaw is 6000gp per character. If you are starting that mod with under 6000gp, you have missed every single piece of treasure up to that point.

6,000 gps x 8 characters = 48,000 gps dropped between cash, loot and magic items sold. I don't recall our DM giving much of a reward, as our cleric mis-cast the dispel evil scroll, and we never really 'solved' the problem with Foxglove Manor. A 5th level cleric casting a scroll penned by a 9th level caster has a 5% chance per level difference of miscasting. He did.

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