Yes I know hence why In Golarion the mechanics do have an affect on the fluffIn Golarion at least it seems that classes are very much Identifyed by abilities (after all why would cultists of Razmir pretend to be clerics if anyone could just declare themselves as such)more derail, but in Golarion a cleric must have a god. So Razmir can't have clerics as he is not a real god.
This assumes that people in Golarion actually use the term "cleric". And even if they do use class names in some cases, it doesn't mean they do in all cases. Fighters probably aren't called fighters - they are soldiers, or mercenaries, or guards, or gladiators. This even applies in the real world - if I call myself a medical doctor but show no knowledge of basic medical practices, I show myself to be a liar.
When we talk about fluff vs. mechanics, which is what the whole argument is about, then we ask if there is a disjunction between what things are called in the world and what the class name is. If I say I'm a spy, well, there's a lot of classes that could be a spy. Saying I can't be a spy because I can't sneak attack is stupid, because I can be a spy without being a rogue. But what if I say I'm a summoner? This is a class name, but a conjurer who focuses on summoning might use it. A wizard could very easily call himself a summoner, and be truthful, without actually having an eidolon. Because even though he isn't the class "summoner", he is a summoner.
Arcane or divine, yes it is visible. Or paizo has been doing it wrong as they ID such things clearly as arcane or divine in products often.
How you cast is visible, clerics and wizards do not cast spell in the same manor, the rules points this out every chance it gets.
ecclesiastic tradition would cover divine casting.
It is listed and yes that is what it means. But ya got folks arguing in here no one even gods can tell if someone is a wizard by the spells they cast so the rules are incorrect and there is no such thing as arcane/divine spells at all.
If it is there is ti visible, it is shown as visible and used as if it was a visible thing. So yes it is visible or not there at all. And we know by the rules it is there.
I disagree by RAW you can or wizards can cast cleric scrolls. As they can not then the magic must be different, it is cast different so it is different. It is covered in both spellcraft and knowledge skills.
Neither Bards or Clerics use Holy Symbols to cast Cure Light Wounds. Look it up. Cure spells are the few exceptions to needing a Divine focus.
So you can't tell by identifying the spell.
You have to wait till he cast a different kind of spell that is either Arcane only (rare due to domains grant spells that are usually arcane) or Divine Only (like Divine favor).
Actually by the default I seem to recall that anyone casting a divine spell needs a holy focus
You absolutely do, but the guy who brandishes a holy symbol and casts entangle might still be a sorcerer and not a druid.
In other words, there's nothing saying a character can't use a divine focus even if he doesn't need to.
We know folks in game can tell arcane/divine. we know this, it's not something I made up but something used in game by paizo and even stated on the blog. So yes it is covered by one of the skills listed. It does not call it out as it should not need to. The rules already spell out they are not the same type of magic, nor cast the same way.
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Actually by the default I seem to recall that anyone casting a divine spell needs a holy focusYou absolutely do, but the guy who brandishes a holy symbol and casts entangle might still be a sorcerer and not a druid.
In other words, there's nothing saying a character can't use a divine focus even if he doesn't need to.
Except that certain arcane versions of spells require you use a material component or focus component (which is very diffrent from a divine focus)
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As I said before, the Knowledge skills can tell you as much or as little as the DM wants them to.
Seeker expects them to identify what kind of caster is casting the spell. He has made a decision that 'an arcane caster moves his fingers differently and says different words than a cleric does when he casts Dismissal'. That's fine, but there's nothing in the rules to back that up.
We know folks in game can tell arcane/divine. we know this, it's not something I made up but something used in game by paizo and even stated on the blog. So yes it is covered by one of the skills listed. It does not call it out as it should not need to. The rules already spell out they are not the same type of magic, nor cast the same way.
I'm sorry to be the first to tell you this, but you have a problem. Houserule anonymous may be the cure. You seem to be subcobsciously houseruling. You need to fix this.
We understand: it is probably just assumed to be this way at your games. But we have to stand up and tell you: no, you move.We care about you too much to let you fabricate this omission.
Rules can't help you identify what is arcane/divine in the way you wish.
As I said before, the Knowledge skills can tell you as much or as little as the DM wants them to.
Seeker expects them to identify what kind of caster is casting the spell. He has made a decision that 'an arcane caster moves his fingers differently and says different words than a cleric does when he casts Dismissal'. That's fine, but there's nothing in the rules to back that up.
sign except the whole of the magic chapter and the fact arcane and divine spells are not the same nor are they cast the same way. Ya can disagree but they went though alot of trouble to make them act different, state they are different , state they are cast different then act like no one could tell.
If you have the skills you can tell, hell if you can cast one type of magic ya can prob tell if someone is not using your type. They spell out what type of magic each class uses.
You can tell or you rework and ignore the casting rules.
Except that certain arcane versions of spells require you use a material component or focus component (which is very diffrent from a divine focus)
Sure, but every sorcerer and some other arcane casters will have Eschew Materials.
There might be some exceptions, but that clears most of them -- divine casters typically need to provide the material component still if it's something expensive that Eschew doesn't let you skip.
I'm sorry to be the first to tell you this, but you have a problem. Houserule anonymous may be the cure. .
funny I feel the same way about you guys, the divide is there is visible and part of the rules. Your simply choosing to ignore it as it was not spelled out for like the 5th time.
It is part of the rules, ya can ignore it if ya like.
and even stated on the blog.
Link?
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You can tell or you rework and ignore the casting rules.
The only rules you have shown me that allow you to do that are not unambiguously defined to do so. You are confusing your own interpretation of the knowledge rules to say you can identify a spell as arcane or divine when it is cast just by seeing it.
Link?and even stated on the blog.
The oracle iconic, was the last one I recall it being brought up. The bard healer ID her as a divine caster.
Are you refering to the line:
Divine spells can be written down and deciphered just as arcane spells can. Any character with the Spellcraft skill can attempt to decipher the divine magical writing and identify it.
That only applies to Divine writings (scrolls) not spells.
Watching to Windmills tilt at each other is kind of funny..
I wish this wasn't me, but we all have our flaws.
The oracle iconic, was the last one I recall it being brought up. The bard healer ID her as a divine caster.
Ok, where?
I'm willing to read the post that proves you right (if it exists) but I'm not going to spend the night hunting for it.
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Are you refering to the line:
Divine spells can be written down and deciphered just as arcane spells can. Any character with the Spellcraft skill can attempt to decipher the divine magical writing and identify it.That only applies to Divine writings (scrolls) not spells.
I failed my will save.
The funny part is that in my counter point I specifically wrote and emphasised cast spells so that he wouldn't quote the written rules for scrolls etc as they weren't relevant...
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All of that changed on the morning when sixteen-year-old Alahazra woke to find herself suddenly and inexplicably blind, her eyes clouded by a white mist that gave her only vague outlines of her surroundings. Beside himself with grief, her father called in the best healers to be found in the godless land, only to discover that the situation was worse than he could have imagined. For when the bards with the healing touch reached out to the fevered child, they were suddenly cast back by a blast of flames that burned the girl's sickbed but left her magically unharmed. Yet even this might have been bearable, had the fleeing bards not revealed the rest of their discovery: that the girl's flames bore no hint of sorcery or arcana. Though Alahazra's staunchly atheist father could scarcely believe it, his proper Rahadoumi household harbored a burgeoning cleric.
So yeah. Interesting quote. The bards could tell she wasn't an arcane caster.
But they called her a cleric, not an oracle.
Interesting.
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All of that changed on the morning when sixteen-year-old Alahazra woke to find herself suddenly and inexplicably blind, her eyes clouded by a white mist that gave her only vague outlines of her surroundings. Beside himself with grief, her father called in the best healers to be found in the godless land, only to discover that the situation was worse than he could have imagined. For when the bards with the healing touch reached out to the fevered child, they were suddenly cast back by a blast of flames that burned the girl's sickbed but left her magically unharmed. Yet even this might have been bearable, had the fleeing bards not revealed the rest of their discovery: that the girl's flames bore no hint of sorcery or arcana. Though Alahazra's staunchly atheist father could scarcely believe it, his proper Rahadoumi household harbored a burgeoning cleric.So yeah. Interesting quote. The bards could tell she wasn't an arcane caster.
But they called her a cleric, not an oracle.
Interesting.
LMFAO. For all my elaborate RAW explanations I hand this victory to TOZ. He wins this de-rail. No further discussion necessary...
The only rules you have shown me that allow you to do that are not unambiguously defined to do so. You are confusing your own interpretation of the knowledge rules to say you can identify a spell as arcane or divine when it is cast just by seeing it.
Sigh, whatever ya guys ignore whatever ya like anyhow.You have to look at the whole, not just the skills. You guys want to ignore the way magic works in game.
They did give you a DC as if ya read th magic chapter one is unneeded. The game is set up so magic does not work the same, divine casters do not cast or learn spells as an arcane caster. They make sure to state what kind of caster each class is. The magic chapter cover what each of those types are. They should not need to list a DC to see what type , which is kinda like saying..whats the DC to see if that fireball was fire magic.
They spell it out load and clear. The skills cover arcane magic and divine magic. Once ya do a spell craft seeing which it was is child's play. Ya can disagree but your ignoring all the walls put inplace to separate the two different styles of magic.
So yeah. Interesting quote. The bards could tell she wasn't an arcane caster.
But they called her a cleric, not an oracle.
Interesting.
goes back to how deep ya look, it was divine so it was "a cleric" as that can get ya killed there. That lace don't care what ya are, your divine your a cleric and one of the gods tools :)
A cleric or someone with more knowledge could pinpoint what she was but the healer saw "divine" and that was enough to leave dodge.
They should not need to list a DC to see what type , which is kinda like saying..whats the DC to see if that fireball was fire magic.
Fireball could be a Electric ball. Remember Sorcerors with a Bloodline can alter energy type.
So you wouldn't know it was fire originally.
[
LMFAO. For all my elaborate RAW explanations I hand this victory to TOZ. He wins this de-rail. No further discussion necessary...
woh do we get derail points? we really should as we have done a fine job here I think.
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They spell it out load and clear. The skills cover arcane magic and divine magic. Once ya do a spell craft seeing which it was is child's play. Ya can disagree but your ignoring all the walls put inplace to separate the two different styles of magic.
Nothing in the rules says 'X DC to tell if spell is arcane or divine'.
Fireball could be a Electric ball. Remember Sorcerors can alter energy type.
So you wouldn't know.
that is a good point, alt energy should change the DC to ID a spell don't ya think? ITseems to me it should, but don't think it does.
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From the meet the Iconics blog for the Oracle Iconic
Meet the Iconics: Alahazra
Wednesday, June 23, 2010
Only those who refuse to see truth are truly blind. Such is the verdict of Alahazra, bride of the sun and prophet of the burning sands.
Alahazra was born in a small Rahadoumi town east of Manaket, one of the many way stations on the caravan route known as the Path of Salt, which leads from Azir all the way to distant Sothis and takes its name from the waves of the Inner Sea and the dried tears of the slave chains that march along it. The daughter of a wealthy and widowed wainwright, Alahazra wanted for nothing, growing up with the best tutors money could buy, all the time being groomed for a potentially lucrative marriage, or perhaps even induction into the Occularium, Manaket's prestigious wizard's college.
All of that changed on the morning when sixteen-year-old Alahazra woke to find herself suddenly and inexplicably blind, her eyes clouded by a white mist that gave her only vague outlines of her surroundings. Beside himself with grief, her father called in the best healers to be found in the godless land, only to discover that the situation was worse than he could have imagined. For when the bards with the healing touch reached out to the fevered child, they were suddenly cast back by a blast of flames that burned the girl's sickbed but left her magically unharmed. Yet even this might have been bearable, had the fleeing bards not revealed the rest of their discovery: that the girl's flames bore no hint of sorcery or arcana. Though Alahazra's staunchly atheist father could scarcely believe it, his proper Rahadoumi household harbored a burgeoning cleric.
Illustration by Wayne Reynolds
Confronted by her enraged father and frightened by the new abilities that she felt burning inside her skin, Alahazra protested her innocence loud and long, but to no avail. Sickened by what he saw as a betrayal of both his trust and his national pride, Alahazra's father did his daughter a final kindness and cast her out with no more than the clothes on her back, instructing her to run before the Pure Legion arrived to take her into custody—and let her gods be her new family, for she no longer had one in Rahadoum.
Blind, weak, and weeping with frustration and rage, Alahazra stumbled southeast into the desert, seeking what meager shade and water the badlands had to offer. For days she wandered, seeking only to put distance between herself and any pursuers who might still seek revenge for her presumed heresy, until at last she collapsed in the lee of a dune, dehydrated and dying.
It was there, staring up through milky cataracts at the burning ball of the sun and letting the wind slowly bury her in the hot sand of the dunes, that Alahazra had her first revelation. Behind those ruined eyes, a vision of debilitating color suddenly exploded. In it, Alahazra saw herself not as she was, but as she one day would be—strong, proud, and fierce. In that moment, Alahazra understood that she was more than just a girl. She was a force of the desert—a voice of sun, sand, and flame—and she would bring its truth to the people, whether they were ready for it or not. Baking slowly in the hot coals of the great Garundi desert, Alahazra came to know herself, and in doing so first harnessed the magical flames that had been building inside her.
With the aid of her newfound abilities, Alahazra moved steadily east, crossing into Thuvia and following the Path of Salt until she finally came to rest in Osirion. There she roamed as she willed through the great cities and barren plains, offering wisdom and healing to the righteous and cleansing fire to the wicked. In time, her notoriety grew, offering her passage into higher social circles, and it's whispered that she made consorts and admirers of several powerful men, possibly even entering the court of the Ruby Prince. Alahazra herself, however, speaks little of her past. For her, only the future is a concern, and her duty is to defend it as best she can, with a clarity of vision that disdains sight.
Now a grown woman, and still attractive enough to turn the heads of slaves and rich men alike, Alahazra is kind but distant, often letting conversation drop in favor of taking in the sounds and smells of her environment. When she does speak, in her low, throaty voice, her words have the weight of command. Alahazra has little patience for fools (most notably those who let money or pride blind them to truth and justice), yet also has a soft spot for orphans, and in her own stern way often sees herself as the mother to her adventuring companions. Though she maintains that she has never worshiped a god—the cornerstone of her bitterness toward both her father and her homeland—she has come to respect a wide variety of deities, whom she refers to as "powerful and strategic allies." And while her detractors might call her cold, in battle Alahazra's burning rage—especially toward injustice and intolerance—still comes roiling out in a wall of divine flame.
It seems that it is at least possible to identify arcane abilities and spells from divine (If maybe not the specifics)
Hmph. Nobody has yet answered two of my points. One, that someone could say a witnessed ability is something new, and a Knowledge check can't reveal the lie while a Sense Motive check can't reveal the truth - either way, you might just have not hit the DC.
Second, there is STILL a difference between mechanics and fluff, and someone can call themselves a cleric without being the "cleric" class - people do so in real life! Are they lying because they can't channel energy? Titles in regards to fluff are much more general than names of classes, and a "cleric" could be a cleric, oracle, paladin, adept, or even just an expert with ranks in Knowledge: Religion.
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** spoiler omitted **
Was there something wrong with barbarian/monks that they had to be effectively killed? One of my players is going to throw a fit (maybe even quitting) when he finds out that his orc barbarian/monk has had its balls cut off.
How exactly do you "forget" to rage? It doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.
EDIT: I know some of you are smirking at the very idea of a barbarian/monk, but the character was roleplayed quite well and is well-liked by the entire party. This is meant to be a serious discussion. I'm not just dicking around for fun.
Nothing wrong with a Barbarian/Monk combo, but you just have to have a monk who falls and degrades into barbarianism. Since:
Ex-MonksA monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.
I just think that a monk who just gets that fed up with everything makes for a great character. Plus, go drunken master to drunken brute for even more fun!
Titles in regards to fluff are much more general than names of classes, and a "cleric" could be a cleric, oracle, paladin, adept, or even just an expert with ranks in Knowledge: Religion.
Normally no. A cleric is always a cleric class.{bad name I know} a paladin is always a paladin, a priest is well a priest and is not limited by class.
Ya are free to do as ya like in homebrew stuff, but the raw assumption is if ya use a class name ya are of that class. In golarion they use priests, but only use cleric when speaking of the cleric class. Although clergy does sneak in when speaking of priests it's not used for talking about clerics.
Sigh, some names are just poor names for classes. If I had my way clerics would be called templars and barbarians berserkers.
Seeker, what i meant was you never addressed my point of a Warblade telling others that he works as a fighter. No one would be able to tell the difference (there's no Knowledge: fighter to tell you that this man shouldn't be walking up to someone and getting +100 damage as a standard action) It'd be perfectly in-character, too.
The point is, nowhere in the rules does it say that the default is your point of view. "Cleric" and "Paladin" and "Mage" are general archetypes that many different characters with different class combinations can use.
Just because there are also the classes "Cleric" and "Paladin" doesn't mean those classes have exclusive access to those archetypes. They certainly don't in-game, because there is no one overlord telling people that a "Paladin" must have these abilities.
Two different orders of holy warriors from different continents with different capabilities can call themselves paladins, and they'd BOTH be right within the context of their people.
Think about it. A warrior from ancient China is going to have different styles than a warrior from Greece. Yet they both claim to be a Warrior.
Normally no. A cleric is always a cleric class.{bad name I know} a paladin is always a paladin, a priest is well a priest and is not limited by class.
Ya are free to do as ya like in homebrew stuff, but the raw assumption is if ya use a class name ya are of that class. In golarion they use priests, but only use cleric when speaking of the cleric class. Although clergy does sneak in when speaking of priests it's not used for talking about clerics.
Please cite the rules that say this. Just because Golarion uses a naming convention, doesn't mean it is core rules - this is pure fluff. If my setting includes a culture where people call clerics "shugenja" or bards "skalds" or magus "red mages", that isn't homebrew material, that's just campaign specific fluff. Nowhere in the rules does it demand that the default is that in-world names are the class names.
** spoiler omitted **
Was there something wrong with barbarian/monks that they had to be effectively killed? One of my players is going to throw a fit (maybe even quitting) when he finds out that his orc barbarian/monk has had its balls cut off.
How exactly do you "forget" to rage? It doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.
EDIT: I know some of you are smirking at the very idea of a barbarian/monk, but the character was roleplayed quite well and is well-liked by the entire party. This is meant to be a serious discussion. I'm not just dicking around for fun.
Because raging is a primal act, calling upon forces that are both ancient and purely wild, sometimes spiritual, forces to empower you. Hence why some of the Barbarian powers are so over-the-top animalistic or, for a few, shaman-like.
That would take someone that can be in-tune with such a chaotic force. Therefore, possessing a Chaotic alignment. Someone who is Lawful is one that is always in-control of themselves, learning to use discipline and focus to channel their energy and mind instead of primal forces like Barbarians (hence why Monks can harness their ki). Being Lawful means you are no longer in harmony with those chaotic forces to harness them.
Seeker, what i meant was you never addressed my point of a Warblade
I have done so twice now. if he displays obvious magical ablitys then no one is gonna think he is not some type of magic user. I am not sure how you think even a farmer with zero know skills would think him non magical.
Those names have in game stuff attached, clerics of some faiths may well hunt you down as a false prophet or can man for daring to call yourself a cleric when your not. Unless you rule otherwise a cleric is always a cleric class, a paladin is always a paladin, a wizard is always a wizard. Those classes are what they are and many would hunt down con men using names they have not earned.
A wizard, cleric and paladin are not titles. They are statements of fact. It's like saying I am male, or I breath air. It is not a mere title but what they are.
Settings can change this but the default is they are not just titles.
But the very blog you relied on shows you can't tell classes apart. It only told arcan/divine.
So either Classes aren't possible to distinquish or they are are, but nullifies blog meaning can't identify arcane/divine.
An oracle is not a Cleric: Are they?
RD likes his games official. He has as long as I've seen him posting, going all the way back to d20 modern before Gleemax.And? So then he should have no complaint. Barbarians lost their rage powers if they took a lawful alignment "before gleemax" existed. Paizo said they goofed. So, he's only been allowed to "officially" play a raging lawful barbarian monk for a very short time.
Sounds like he either needs to a) get over it and make a houserule, or b) not complain about something that was pretty obviously a mistake in the first place and was fairly quickly resolved.
Just because the problem has been around forever does not mean its not a problem. As such, I am free to bring up my concerns on the issue. It is highly condescending of you to say otherwise.
I wholly support this errata.
Barbarian monks needed to go a long time ago.
Why, pray tell, do they need to go anywhere?
I am not sure how you think even a farmer with zero know skills would think him non magical.
Because the Warblade is nonmagical. Entirely so.
Ya are free to do as ya like in homebrew stuff, but the raw assumption is if ya use a class name ya are of that class.
Some take up arms for glory, wealth, or revenge. Others do battle to prove themselves, to protect others, or because they know nothing else. Still others learn the ways of weaponcraft to hone their bodies in battle and prove their mettle in the forge of war. Lords of the battlefield, fighters are a disparate lot, training with many weapons or just one, perfecting the uses of armor, learning the fighting techniques of exotic masters, and studying the art of combat, all to shape themselves into living weapons. Far more than mere thugs, these skilled warriors reveal the true deadliness of their weapons, turning hunks of metal into arms capable of taming kingdoms, slaughtering monsters, and rousing the hearts of armies.
The RAW actually call fighters "warriors," even though they're not members of the Warrior class.
Now, you are free do what you like in your homebrew stuff, but the actual rules as written ("RAW") say the exact opposite of what you claim, right there in the "classes" section. As quoted.
If you can find a quote from the actual rules that supports your claim of this "RAW assumption," then post it.