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I'm GM'ing Rise of the Runelords, and we've been on a break for a year after Hook Mountain Massacre, and are about to pick up the mantle again. This means that all character have to be converted to Pathfinder rules, and I've decided to be pretty large on how much change I allow when converting.
My group consists of a Half-orc Paladin, a Human Ranger, an Elven Barbarian, a Human Wizard, and a Half-elf Rogue. The advice I'm looking for is for the Rogue player. He's having difficulties seing what his role is going to be in this group, and how he's going to get his Thunder. I doubt he's gonna be satisfied going through the last three books of the campaing as "the guy who can remove traps", but much of what Rogues are good at is covered by oter members of the party. The ranger is as good at sneaking. The barbarian is as good an acrobat. The Paladin does as good damage on regular attack as the rogue does on sneak attacks. I think my player really wants to be striker, but I think it's gonna be hard for him to shine in a group of 3 fighter types.
The characters are rebuild at 9th level, using rules from all Pathfinder books. How would you go about building this rogue, now and on towards lvl 17-ish, and what role could he fill in this group?
It's true that in Pathfinder, classes can more easily bleed into one-another, and step on each-others toes. I actually see this as a good thing, though. Yes, the ranger can sneak around too, and that's great - send both the rogue and the ranger ahead when scouting; the chances that they'll both fail a perception check is slim. Yes, the Barbarian can tumble into flanking positions, and that's great too - it's just easier to set the Rogue up for flanking full attacks. (I actually love the Barbarian/Rogue combination for this reason.)
Being the guy who removes traps is probably all the rogue will have to offer that no one else can (hell, the wizard could double as a trap/lock monkey if he wanted), but Pathfinder is less about filling distinct roles and more about cooperation than 3E. Aside from that, I think he should pick one or two alternate roles to fill. Scout and striker are the obvious choices, but he could also manage to be the party face (he has tons of skill points and the APG offers some nice rogue talents for social interaction, like Honeyed Words, Charmer, Hard to Fool and Guileful Polygot, just off the top of my head). This is a great choice for a half-elf. Even if the Paladin is the natural choice for the party face, the Rogue can be the go-to guy when it comes to bluffing and some of the less honest uses of diplomacy.
Two weapon fighting is the best way to go. You want to get that Sneak attack in as much as possible.
Archery is viable now with the APG but I haven't tried this out yet to see how well it really works.
Pathfinder is big on the whole Pathfinder thing ie Archaeologists and discovering the ancient Empires that have been destroyed during Starfall, and Varisia is a Hotbed of such Archaeological Wonders. and you are going to go on an archaeologist adventure if you keep going on Rise of the Runelords :) Have him put points into Knowledge: History and have him learn Thassilonian :) He can seek out the Pathfinders in Magnimar and Join up :) They consider 7th level Rogues to be archaeologists if built right. That or Bards. Oh and have him put 5 points in Profession: Scribe so he can send reports back to the Pathfinder Venture-captain who is his handler or local boss.
Points into the Face skills are great as well and the disable divice and escape etc.. Build Indiana Jones :)
Have him take rogue talent Finesse Rogue, Rogue talent Combat Rogue: then take 2 Weapon Fighting, then use his feats to take various things like Double Slice, 2 Weapon Defense, Advanced 2 Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical etc...
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What are you useing for Stats that will greatly affect builds.
My suggestion wold be somthing like this. But this is not a full rogue or close to one.
(15 Point build )
total taken at
Ranger 6 ( 1,2 5-8)
Rogue 2 ( 3,4 )
Fighter 12 ( 9-20 )
Ranger: Two Weapon Fighting with out need DEX.
Rogue: Evasion and Traps.
Fighter: Weapon damage and bouns feets.
STR 15
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 8
Rules all rogues should know.
1) Most trap DC are way lower then what you can hit with maxing Disable and having a high INT. INT 10 is all you need.
2) CON is important this is not a dump stat.
3) STR is important this is not a dump stat.
4) CHA like it or not this is a dump stat.
5) WIS you have a low will save any how this is not a dump stat but not one you need. If you can get a higher STR,DEX,or CON using this as a dump stat do it.
6) There are only 5 skills Rogues need to keap maxed out. the top 5 skills Acrobatics, Disable Divice, Perception, Stealth, and Use Magical Device. You get to pick 3 after you max thes out if you don't have a INT mod or your not human.
Races that make good fighting rogues.
Dwarf +2CON +2WIS -2CHA
+Makes his will saves higher.
+More HP then most rogues.
+Dark Vision
-Slower then other rogues
-Lower CHA for socal skills then most rogues.
ELF +2DEX +2INT -2CON
+Higher DEX makes it easyer to get TWF.
+Higher INT for more skill points. see above.
+Low Light Vision
-Lower HP then most rogues. In melee this is charter threating.
Half ELF +2 to any one ability score.
+Free skill focus for Use Magical Devices.
+Low Light Vision
+bounes can be used where needed.
-No Real Penelity
Half ORC +2 to any one ability score.
+Dark Vision
+bounes can be used where needed.
-No Realy Penelity
Human +2 to any one abiliy score.
+bouns feet
+bouns skill point.
+bounes can be used where needed.
-No low light or dark vision. ( can be cripling dependent on where you are at)
If he settles for a striker, how would you go about making the best striker with a 9th lvl rogue-type character (not necessarily only rogue lvls, but mainly)?
9th level is a good level for an archer rogue striker. I`d go with 9 straight levels of rogue, built around the Shatter Defenses feat. The goal is to demoralize opponents via Intimidate, then sneak attack them repeated with ranged attacks (Shatter Defenses lets you treat shaken opponents as flat-footed).
Feats: Choose the Weapon Training and Combat Trick rogue talents to gain Weapon Focus (composite longbow) and a free combat feat. Go with human as race, and choose the following feats:
human: Point Blank Shot
1st level: Rapid Shot
Weapon Training: Weapon Focus (composite longbow)
3rd level: Dazzling Display
Combat Trick: Precise Shot
6th level: Deadly Aim (or Improved Initiative)
9th level: Shatter Defenses
Optionally, swap Rapid Shot and Precise Shot. It depends on how much shooting you plan on doing; if you want to keep using your bow, take Precise Shot early; if you prefer to get through your low levels by shooting for all your worth, then dropping your bow in favour of some more standard melee combat, then go for it.
Choose either the Rake or Thug archetypes from the APG. If you choose the Thug, you will probably start fights by using Dazzling Display to demoralize opponents; the Thug`s Frightening ability extends the Shaken duration. Follow up by rapid-shotting anyone you successfully demoralize. If you can`t demoralize, switch to just using Deadly Aim to pack on a little extra damage.
The Rake lets you forgo a little sneak attack damage for a free intimidate check against the opponent. With this build, if you get in a surprise round, attack from cover, or whatever, you can demoralize an opponent right away, and start using Shatter Defenses on them in subsequent rounds. Afterwards, you`ll need to use Dazzling Display to set up the pattern again. In this build, initiative is fairly important; you may also want to choose Snapshot as a rogue talent, along with anything else that helps with initiative.
This is definitely trickier than a standard TWF melee build, but it`s different and can be effective. Yes, it takes time to set up, but demoralizing foes is not only really helpful to the rest of your team, but its really fun to roleplay!