Is it possible to have a low magic campaign in pathfinder with out having to totally rework the system, or change spell casting classes? Has anyone ran a low magic campaign that has any words of wisdom to some one that is planning on trying their hand at a low magic game?
As your combat classes are often dependent on magical equipment, this will hurt them. Restricting wizard spells is easy, but you may wish to introduce constraints on the number of spells available to other casters.
I'm doing that with my current campaign. It can't be done with Golarion except in spots, but in your home-brewed world, relatively easily.
I did it by having a great war some 600 years in the past which destroyed most of the wizards towers and grand temples along with half the world. Dragons blew up. That sort of thing.
The PCs of course have access to magic, but that's because they've been rediscovering it themselves, finding lost caches, etc. There aren't "adventurers taverns" or "mage marts" but things are working out pretty well.
|
Don't advance past level 3.
Seriously, throw out XP progression and stick to the level that gives you the style of campaign you want. Make achieving a single level the reward for completing a campaign.
If all your players are onboard with the idea, they won't be worrying about what mechanical choices they need to make next level. They can explore their current capabilities to the fullest and get into their character easier because their abilities are not constantly changing.
Hard, but doable.
Is it possible to have a low magic campaign in pathfinder with out having to totally rework the system, or change spell casting classes? Has anyone ran a low magic campaign that has any words of wisdom to some one that is planning on trying their hand at a low magic game?
I think the easiest and probably smartest solution is to flat-out ban the pure caster classes. If that seems too extreme, make a rule that no one can have more than half their levels be wizard/cleric/sorcerer/druid/etc., including prestige classes that give caster levels. Otherwise I think you're always going to be trying to struggle to find ways to limit casters enough that the fact that everyone else is short magic really empowers them, while not having nerfed those classes so heavily they aren't fun to play.
At that point (and assuming that you're also lowering the amount of magic items available), yeah, past the low levels you probably have to adjust the CR of encounters a bit, but otherwise I think the system can run pretty well with minimal changes.
It depends on your perspective of what constitutes "low-magic."
Obviously having fully-fledged spellcasters like Wizards and Sorcerers as player characters can dampen the impact of the narative you're trying to relate, but your players might be willing to accept restraints on their character choices. You could also allow them to play spellcasters, but reinforce through NPCs how wonderous their abilities actually are.
As has been pointed out, a dearth of magic items significantly stymies the abilities of most classes that emphasize combat with weapons. One idea to get around this however, would be to figure out what level of enhancement bonus the players are assumed to have in terms of gear at each level and then treat them as automatically obtaining this at or near the same level. This helps you deal with issues of overcoming DR and prevents you from having to adjust the AC of every monster when you're building encounters. Obviously there are a few cases where this won't work perfectly, but you could always consider repackaging magic items to be an alternative type of reward: That +1 Keen Longsword isn't actually a sword, but rather represents advanced training from a legendary swordsman.
There are other games that have rules for handling this type of thing and its always worth it to check them out. You never know what kinds of great ideas you'll be able to borrow.
A few things I have been mulling over after reading some related threads, should I ever decide to create another low-magic/lower-powered world. Note all of these do indeed involve significant mucking around with the system. Like it or not, PF RAW defaults to a pretty high magic system, so any attempt to create a low-magic campaign will involve doing some basic rewiring.
-- Give all spells a chance of spell failure
-- Lengthen casting times to reintroduce real danger of spell interruption
-- Make spell components expensive and/or hard to obtain
-- Make spells more expensive and harder to obtain
-- Make spellcasters social outcasts, can't cast in public for fear of persecution
-- Make step up a normal combat action, not requiring a feat
-- Eliminate/limit the amount of creatures with DR
-- Bump all saving throws
-- Give all/most creatures some innate spell resistance
-- Introduce more wild magic and dead magic zones
-- Have each spell accompanied by a die roll, with a one being a "critical miss" resulting in some random and potentially spectacularly good or bad effect.
-- Make casting magic spells physically draining, temporary Con loss or fatigue or non-lethal damage.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Currently I am running a semi-low magic campaign. My solution for the power imbalance problem is to simply only allow magic items that fit my vision so caster and combat classes still even out but it does not appear that it is a high magic campaign like something run in FR or Greyhawk. Think Dragonlance without all the drama.
I pretty much just flat out ban magic items that violate the flavor of the game. For instance, a +2 sword is ok since it looks and functions pretty much like a regular sword for all intents and purposes, even a +1 keen sword is kosher since it is not overtly magical it is just a well made sword that is particularly sharp. A +1 flaming sword, however, violates the rules. Casters can still have wands and rods that duplicate abilities that they already have but an immovable rod would be kind of far fetched. Even something like a +1 Cloak of resistance isn't all that overtly magical. To preserve the flavor of the game you can just simply ignore the fact that it is magical and apply the bonuses anyway to maintain the balance.
So, in short, my suggestion is to just pick and choose the items that mesh with your vision and restrict the players to those items. Same for spells, abilities, etc.
|
You can also give casters a new spell progression, say 1 fewer spell per day of each level for prepared casters, and 2 fewer for the spontaneous casters. Minimum of zero.
Or even worse, you could bump full casters down to the Bard progression, 2/3 casters (like the bard) down to Paladin/Ranger progression, and bar 1/3 casters (like the paladin and ranger) from casting spells at all.
Are we talking low magic items or low magic in general?
Low Magic in General-If we are talking low magic in general just remove most of the casting classes completely.
Casting either handled with with two classes (Paladin handling the holy warrior healer, Bard the arcane caster role) or maybe buffing the Adept NPC class a little and making it the only caster (hedge mages and witch doctors, etc). Everyone is basically playing Martial classes (Fighter, No Magic Ranger, Barbarian, etc) and Rogues.
You basically are relying on adept class healing and stuff like lay on hands to handle all the magical healing for the party. It would also help to incorporate some sort of reserve HP, healing surge mechanic.
Honestly if you are going for this feel just choose another game there are dozens (Harnmaster, BFRP, Tribe 8) out there that handle low magic better than D&D. Square Peg Round Hole and what not.
however if you are going for low magic item then there are a variety of solutions.
1)Incorporate intrinsic bonuses in place of the big 6 magic items. Basically if they are required anyway then might as well include them in the character advancement math. Magic items can then be limited to showy effects (flaming swords, apparatus of kwalish, deck of many things ;))
This way you can keep the current math in place without basically saying "screw you" to the non magical characters (who generally can't self buff).
2) A lesser version of the above would be to allow custom items that combine common effects. Instead of having a cloak of resistance and magic armor have it so that magic armor boosts saves as well as AC. This way you reduce the christmas tree effect by forcing players focusing on a limited number of core items.
3) Selectively remove things that typically make casters way way better than non casters. Drop mental buffers (spells and items) completely. Casting stat is exclusively based on base + racial + level modifiers. Boosted physical stats (wildshape, enlarge person, gauntlets of ogre power :D) are typically less problematic. Rods of metamagic, pearls of power, etc all get sent to the rubbish bin.
This removes the need for everyone to shore up a ton of defenses vs casters. You probably need to accept that monster CRs are hopelessly inaccurate but they've always been guidelines rather than a solid foundation.
4) Establish a very firm social contract of "equal spotlight time and don't try to outshine your peers" and go ahead and wing it. Incorporate items as you think are appropriate and don't be afraid of adjusting as you go in order to keep the pie plates all spinning.
You basically need to wing encounter design because the standard encounter math probably won't work for you.
Chances are you'll get as much wrong as you get right but as long as people aren't ruthlessly exploiting any hole in your houserule you'll probably be safe. People on the internet will tell you you're doing it wrong "Badwrongfun" but as long as your group enjoys your game tell the haters to keep on hating.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I ran a very, very low-magic game once, and I'd like to do it again sometime. Spellcasting classes were severely restricted as follows:
a) Arcane magic was considered to be heresy and associated with great evil. Displaying arcane powers in a populated area is a great way to get lynched or burned at the stake. Some people are still born with sorcerous blood, but they almost always hide their powers and are often just as afraid of them as other people. As such, sorcerers are rare (but a sorcerer who chooses to develop his/her powers is likely to turn to adventuring, hopefully finding friends who are less judgmental and superstitious), and wizards and bards are all but unheard of.
b) Divine magic was also severely limited, though in a different way. The setting revolved around the concept of the gods having disappeared from the world, for reasons unknown to modern people. Most people in the present don't even think they existed, but are at least dimly/culturally aware of the silly beliefs of the ancient peoples. Clerics and Paladins are very rare, and are the result of sponsorship from powerful outsiders (known as "Immortals"). Even they tend not to flash their powers, in case they are confused for sorcery. Similarly, Druids pray to nature spirits and fae, which are few and far between.
c) Rangers were a special case; their spellcasting was replaced with bonus feats and a better Animal Companion progression.
Aside from that, I just made some adjustments to challenge levels and treasure, and instituted a few house rules:
- Max HP at every level.
- Heal your Level x Con bonus in HP with a full day's rest.
- added a few new special materials with varying effects (one to overcome each type of resistance, and a few others)
Still, players had to be very cautious about encounters and quickly learned to set up more ambushes and use hit-and-run tactics. They cooperated well and developed strategies as a team, rather than relying on magic to save their butts when they screwed up. Tensions were high in every fight, and that made it a lot of fun. With low money, Masterwork equipment was a big deal, the loss of a horse was devastating, and finding a few pounds of a special material that could be fashioned into a weapon was like finding a magic item.
The hardest part of screwing with the magic classes is still having some incentive to play them at all.
Myself, if i was going to run a low magic setting, I'd go out and buy the Midnight game (based on 3.5 rules) and pathfinderize it. They already did alot of the work with the entire magic system which saves you from having to re-invent the wheel in that regard.
You can either just keep the way they "fixed" magic or go with the entire campaign they have written- either way its just one book.(there are more books than one, but you really just need the one core book).
Just my thoughts.
-S
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Don't advance past level 3.
Seriously, throw out XP progression and stick to the level that gives you the style of campaign you want. Make achieving a single level the reward for completing a campaign.
If all your players are onboard with the idea, they won't be worrying about what mechanical choices they need to make next level. They can explore their current capabilities to the fullest and get into their character easier because their abilities are not constantly changing.
Hard, but doable.
This.
The inherent level of magic involved/required grows tremendously with each passing level. Just cutting magic out of a tenth-level game (or culling it tremendously) leaves you with a broken game, but at level two, there's not a whole heck of a lot of magic going around.
Most attempts to make a low-magic Pathfinder mod are just an elaborate attempt to turn level 20 into level 6.
This is pretty much the only way to do it without heavyhanded dick addenda or outright breaking the game. Rewriting the rules to explicitly screw the players who want to run a magic-user makes for a bad game. Pulling something like replacing the Cleric with the Adept or forbidding more than half caster level does not make for a good low-magic game; it makes for the broken tatters of a game. Seriously, just cap the level and run; it works fantastically well.
Low magic can be done with Pathfinder, and the best way is as others have said not to level up past the first few levels. If you want high level play in a low magic setting you probably want a different system than D&D.
Most attempts to make a low-magic Pathfinder mod are just an elaborate attempt to turn level 20 into level 6.
And to that, take a look at "E6." There's a good write-up on it here.
I disagree with those that say the only way to do it is by keeping it low level. I think it can be done, but it takes some work. I intend to prove it with my next PF campaign. Unfortunately that probably won't be for months at least, so don't hold your breath.
One thing I think it is important to keep in mind is that there are two types of "low-magic".
The first type is low or nonexistant magic items. It is possible to do this but still have plenty of spell casters.
People focus so much on how the fighter types NEED magic weapons, but I think the importance of magical items is close to equal regardless of class. If you still feel it is worse for the fighter types just allow "superior" weapons and armor that still give a non-magic bonus. Set the prices close to that listed for magic weapons and armor of the same bonus.
If you are going this route it is important to remember that enemies with class levels are expect to have a certain value of gear. Denying them that brings their power level down a bit, not as much as it is doing to the players though. Creatures that don't have treasure won't see a drop in power level. So shave off a few HP and maybe some stat points from the monsters, just make sure you do it less to enemies that rely class levels than ones that don't. Also keep in mind that DR of the Magic or Alignment types is MUCH more difficult to bypass.
The second type is few or no spell casters. The two types do not have to go hand in had, although the first one is almost guaranteed by the second one. Still it doesn't have to be.
The most important thing here is to remember that there is a world of difference between "none" and "few". Few means that there has to be a reason that there are few. You need to know what that reason is and carefully think through what the implications are for your game AND your players. If healing magic is unavailable it takes a lot longer to recover HP and that is important when you are planning multiple encounters. Even encounters that are a good bit under CR look somewhat more like a threat when they can slow down recovery time.
One possibility is to make turn spell casting into prestige classes. This can either take quite a bit of work to make the base classes spell casting classes. Or you can cheat and change the prerequisites for existing magic using prestige classes and make prestige class the only way to gets spell casting. Just replace any prerequisites that deal with spells per day or caster level with "requires training" and then make the character work a little bit to find a trainer.
It is doable and requires a bit of work, but I think it can be worth it if you carefully consider the impact of the changes you are making.
As to the post regarding not allowing characters past level 1/3/6/etc. That doesn't sound like a game I would enjoy, although I did find the information on E6 interesting.
What I would do is run an E6 style game with higher level spells requiring powerful rituals or other GM-driven exceptions.
|
I don't believe it is possible to do in the current D&D framework due to lack of healing without magic. You would need to have an option like a healing surge in 4E or Star Wars to make it feasible. Even with the healing surge it is not much fun. Alot of camping and resting in between fights. It is a problem that I run into when playing alot of modern roleplaying games. Unless you are playing some kind of supernatural creature such as a vampire or werewolf in the White Wolf system, firearms just tend to be too lethal.
That same problem occurs in D&D when you fight a giant or other brute monster with a ton of hit points and a crazy attack table. Either you would have to institute armor as damage reduction and give the PC's an AC bonus based upon level like in the Conan roleplaying game or significantly lower alot of monster attack bonuses. Fighters and rogues would get creamed by a giant hitting with both cleave and power attack when the best non-magic AC you could have is between 25 to 30. Critical hits would also have to be much more rare in a non-magic system as a great axe X3 crit on a power attack could one shot most any mid level pc.
I am in a level 8 low magic game. It works fine, you just need to have a creative/insane dm and players willing to embrace it as such, and scale back the CR of your enemies. Level 2 orc barbarians X 6 are a serious threat at level 7 to a party =/
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Is it possible to have a low magic campaign in pathfinder with out having to totally rework the system, or change spell casting classes? Has anyone ran a low magic campaign that has any words of wisdom to some one that is planning on trying their hand at a low magic game?
The key to run a low magic is to adjust the encounters... PCs can function very well without magic, but it would be ludicrous to think that they can function as efficiently against what they are expected to face by RAW.
Not only does the CR of creature need to be adjusted, but the special abilities of creatures (DR, spell-like abilities, ability to fly etc) need to be taken in consideration. This is not easy because it goes well beyond raising CR by 1 or 2 across the board.
As mentioned before, healing (or lack thereof) become an issue. Most successful low-magic games I heard of incorporated some kind of houserule about healing.
'findel
I was thinking of maybe forcing rangers and paladins to take non-spellcasting options and requiring all other casters to multiclass with a non-spellcasting class as a way of reducing magic.
Seriously, throw out XP progression and stick to the level that gives you the style of campaign you want.
Hmmm, not bad. Perhaps ignore leveling altogether, starting everyone off at "1st level," no classes, 75 points to buy initial attributes. Give them 15 points to spend among the following:
• Add 2 hit points
• Buy a feat
• Add a spell to their list (once they have 10 1st-level spells they can start to purchase 2nd-level spells, and so on, with 3rd-level spells being the highest ones available)
• Buy a class ability from any of the classes (you must have all the 1st-level class abilities before you can acquire ones from the next, etc.)
• Increase an attribute by 1 point (max 20)
• Increase a saving throw 1 point
• Increase two separate skills 1 point or add a new skill
• Buy 1 spell point (spells cost a number of points equal to their level to cast, and you might want to add spellcasting skills)
Then, every other session they can do one of the above as their advancement. Ignore regular XP.
I'd recommend putting attacks into skills, breaking it up into a bunch of types (axes, blades, pole arms, clubs/hammers, bows, crossbows, thrown, flails, etc.) until there are about 10 skills. I'd also add a Dodge skill. Then make people improve them like regular skills. Some kind of cap would be necessary, though, like equal to their Dex/Str score, at which point the price doubles. Something like that. Either that or only allow people to improve their attacks through feats. That would have the advantage of keeping the numbers at manageable levels.
What to do about monsters? Not sure, but keep in mind you're the DM. If you know how to strip monsters down to their essence, just lower their attacks, damage, saves etc. Theoretically, the smart DM could have 1st-level characters going up against a beholder, because you aren't forced to use monsters as written. For some reason, modern gamemasters (and players!) tend to forget that.
You might argue, "well that's a totally different game!" but it isn't, really. It still uses the d20 system. Sure, there might be other game systems that do what we want already, or are far less wonky and delicate than d20, but not everyone plays those games.
It can be done easily with one or two quick steps, depending on whether you want low magic and low magic items, or just one or the other (I don't recommend reducing magic item availability without also reducing the power of magic in general):
1. Double the price of every magic item without increasing treasure rewards.
2. Ban all setting-breaking spells (teleport, gate, etc).
Ta-daa! Done.
Admittedly, that second step can cause friction and the specific banned spells may need to be periodically re-examined. You will find, however, that campaigns still feel low-magic with 9th level spells when those 9th level spells aren't GREAT COSMIC POWER, but are instead things like meteor swarm which are just evolutions of previous spells rather than quantum leaps in power (like gate).
There was a living 3.5 game in Victorian England that multiplied all the spellcasting times by ten.
Spend ten rounds for a scorching ray? No thanks.
Spend ten rounds to be invisibile for 30 minutes? Awesome, especially when see invis will also take ten rounds to cast.
|
|
Sure you can change around the game completely. Nerf and or exile spell casters, dragons, demons, giants and all other big baddies and just fight orcs, goblins and ogres with the occasional troll thrown in.If that is your idea of fun, hey I won't compalin.
But it is nigh impossible to run Pathfinder or D&D as written in a low level fantasy setting. The best game I ever ran across for low/no magic was iron heroes. Pathfinder just assumes you have magical healing available by some means. Otherwise you would regain more health through rest.
Is resting to regain more health more realistic. Sure. Is it fun? Not really. I don't want to spend my gaming session hoping someone in my group dosen't botch a stealth more or have the bad luck to be critted by a great axe and be out for a game. The game as is does not really support non-magical healing and the pc's are not given enough options through damage reduction, fast healing, ect to compensate for the damage they take without having a means to heal.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Is it possible to have a low magic campaign in pathfinder with out having to totally rework the system, or change spell casting classes? Has anyone ran a low magic campaign that has any words of wisdom to some one that is planning on trying their hand at a low magic game?
The last campaign I played in San Diego was low magic and we used pretty much straight Pathfinder Core. (With some APG and Super Genius stuff.)
We started at 3rd level, no one could have more than 1/2 their character level in a magic using class at any time, spell casters couldn't use "flashy" spells, and magic items were few and far between.
It was a lot of fun and very different from the previous campaign (epic point buy, everything and the kitchen sink allowed) even though both games used Pathfinder.
Hyrum.
The last campaign I played in San Diego was low magic and we used pretty much straight Pathfinder Core. (With some APG and Super Genius stuff.)
We started at 3rd level, no one could have more than 1/2 their character level in a magic using class at any time, spell casters couldn't use "flashy" spells, and magic items were few and far between.
It was a lot of fun and very different from the previous campaign (epic point buy, everything and the kitchen sink allowed) even though both games used Pathfinder.
Hyrum.
I really like the idea of only having 1/2 your character level in a magic using class. That would work well.
There was a living 3.5 game in Victorian England that multiplied all the spellcasting times by ten.
They played D&D in Victorian England? ^__^
E6 would be the easiest system for that. Basically you stop at Level 6 and after levelling up the classes only receive a feat and nothing else.
Make up a few feats or look through the many feats that have been done for e6 and you should be fine.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A DM that would throw magical creatures against a party limited to level 6 and stripped of spellcasters and/or magic items is just plain mean.
It takes the cooperation of all involved to do this. If the idea is to play E6 or magic a +1 longsword something of inestimable rarity, then a run-in with a shadow should also be unheard of. It's the DM's job to tailor the encounters to the party's capabilities...AND it's the players' job to recognize a threat they cannot win and get the heck out of there!
A little imagination and a lot of ingenuity can reshape Pathfinder core into "low magic," whether you cap levels, spells, magic items, or all of the above.
And if everyone tries to have fun with it, they just might.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Part of the inherent problem in this discussion is: what is "Low Magic"?
I intend to run a 'low magic' campaign next. The level cap is going to be 10, slow XP progression, low treasure. However the PCs can be spellcasters (but for the most part only spontaneous casters) and can make magic items - but they are some of the only people in the world who can. If they want a magic sword and don't have anyone who can make then they can go talk to a bard or someone who can tell them "The Sword of Rezznek the Rascal was last seen when its wielder took it into the eastern plague lands...." and they can go look for it if they want it. Masterwork items will be the norm, with special materials available in case they deal with lycanthropes or fey.
By 2nd or 3rd level they are going to be attracting a lot of attention from the powers that be in the world. By 10th they might be running and empire.
The last campaign I played in San Diego was low magic and we used pretty much straight Pathfinder Core. (With some APG and Super Genius stuff.)
We started at 3rd level, no one could have more than 1/2 their character level in a magic using class at any time, spell casters couldn't use "flashy" spells, and magic items were few and far between.
It was a lot of fun and very different from the previous campaign (epic point buy, everything and the kitchen sink allowed) even though both games used Pathfinder.
Okay, time for some qualifications.
There's a huge difference between being able to have fun with a system/rule and that system/rule actually being any good. There are people who have fun playing RIFTS, but that is outright a bad game; a clunky, totally broken, erratically designed mess. Most often, people have fun in spite of the system, not because of it.
You can have fun with a game that is not conducive to fun. That does not mean the system is worth a damn.
The "no more than 1/2 level in casting classes" method breaks the game outright and forces everyone to either ignore the game or wrestle with how broken it's become. Just because you've had fun with it before doesn't change that.
I really like the idea of only having 1/2 your character level in a magic using class. That would work well.
No, it wouldn't. In fact, it would work very badly because spells aren't made to scale in a manner conducive to that method; by the time you get the higher-level spells, most of them are already obsolete, save for the world-shaking spells; things like Cure become moot, casting classes already multiclass horribly, and the entire game degenerates into a broken mess. Particularly since the majority of classes are spellcasters in one capacity or another, so you're pretty much writing off two thirds of the classes in the game.
If you want to get the essence of what that method seeks to achieve, go E6 gestalt and only allow one side of the gestalt to be a full caster.
A DM that would throw magical creatures against a party limited to level 6 and stripped of spellcasters and/or magic items is just plain mean.
And yet, if you strip out the magical classes and the magical items and the magical monsters, you've gutted the game so immensely that there's nothing but a tattered husk left.
The "no more than 1/2 level in casting classes" method breaks the game outright and forces everyone to either ignore the game or wrestle with how broken it's become. Just because you've had fun with it before doesn't change that.
How's the game broken? We played for 6 months and ran into zero rules issues. Is this the default game setting? Not in the slightest, but the ruleset handled it well.
No, it wouldn't. In fact, it would work very badly because spells aren't made to scale in a manner conducive to that method; by the time you get the higher-level spells, most of them are already obsolete, save for the world-shaking spells; things like Cure become moot, casting classes already multiclass horribly, and the entire game degenerates into a broken mess. Particularly since the majority of classes are spellcasters in one capacity or another, so you're pretty much writing off two thirds of the classes in the game.
Spell casting classes got nerfed, but again, how is the game broken? The game handles 6th level clerics just as well as 4th level fighter/2nd level clerics. It was just that in our game there were no pure 6th level clerics but there could be a 6th level fighter/6th level cleric. That's the beauty of the game.
Hyrum.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think If you're going to scale back the magic in the game world, you'll need to scale back on the types of critters encountered as well. At higher levels you're most likely to be fighting lower CR creatures but with class ranks added to bring them up to the expected CR. Certainly creatures that are causing such massive damge to charcters that only a timely Heal can save the combat would need to be handled differently or removed from play.
This mitigates the need for uber spells and super damage weapons that Viletta is worried about, since all the combatants are going to be scaling in the same way as the players in this case.
If you're scaling back spell casters then scale back supernatural abilities and spell like abilities in a similar way to also avoid what Viletta is pointing out. Many creatures at higher levels are built with abilities assuiming a high level of magic in the PC's, so tone them down to an equal level as your players are recieveing and you should be ok.
I think the rules system is perfectly fine to run a game like this, but like any homebrew, it will take quite a bit of work on the DM's behalf to get it working.
Cheers
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, "low magic" can mean many things to different people. I really like the E6 approach. Pick what spell level you think the most powerful magics should be and cap levels at 2x that spell level. In the above only 1/2 caster system that means you can only get 5th level spells. So just remember that the whole world is like that, and all the magic items that require higher level spells or casters don't exist. Also regular magic items might be 2-4x more expensive.
The one other thing you may need to do to keep low magic is either ignore DR/magic (or alignment) or at least make every creature have DR/[alignment] OR material. If everything has at least one material it is weak to, then it is possible to handle some of the tougher fights with a lot of DR.
On the other scale of doing things, with high action/low magic is to adapt the classes from Iron Heroes. It is all about making your world and defining its limits.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Because if you nerf the only people that can handle encounters then no one can do so.Spell casting classes got nerfed, but again, how is the game broken? The game handles 6th level clerics just as well as 4th level fighter/2nd level clerics. It was just that in our game there were no pure 6th level clerics but there could be a 6th level fighter/6th level cleric. That's the beauty of the game.
Hyrum.
And yet they handled the encounters. Probably because the DM adjusted them to the new power level.
http://blogs.houstonpress.com/eating/fudge.jpg
At first I thought this was going to be a recommendation to use the FUDGE/FATE system instead.
Bearing in mind that I haven't tried this, this is what I would do:
- Eliminate druid, wizard, and cleric, or make them only extremely rare NPCs.
- Possibly use Alchemist from APG for a way of getting in some blastyness. I know they have spells, but as it's a low and not no-magic campaign I think this is fine.
- At low levels, design encounters at CR -1 (adjusting for competency of the group, etc.) At higher levels, design encounters at an even lower CR because high CR monsters tend to be designed assuming the PCs are wearing save- and stat- boosting items (i.e., the save DCs versus their abilities and their saving throws are high enough that a "naked" standard PC would only have a small chance of success). Use of the "young" templates and the like will help. Avoid or alter DR/magic monsters (and alternately, use them with discretion when the party needs to be scared a little).
- Since again it is low and not no magic, use a lot of alchemical items to do things like speed healing rates and provide some low-powered area-of-effect abilities to provide SOME ease of play while still making scenarios challenging.
In sum, I think it's doable but probably best run by an experienced GM who can judge a given set of PCs and design appropriate encounters.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Spell casting classes got nerfed, but again, how is the game broken? The game handles 6th level clerics just as well as 4th level fighter/2nd level clerics. It was just that in our game there were no pure 6th level clerics but there could be a 6th level fighter/6th level cleric. That's the beauty of the game.
The point is that the game doesn't handle a Fighter4/Cleric2 well at all. Or a Rogue10/Wizard10; at level 9, a 5d4+5 Magic Missile is underwhelming. At level 18, it's archaic and worthless. That's the problem to begin with, and all it's doing is trying to turn 10th and 12th level into 6th level when 6th level is already 6th level, making it completely redundant.
The game has never handled multiclassed casters well, and that's the bulk of the problem. Plus, like I said, most classes are casters, making the measure doubly oppressive.
E6 and gestalt both do everything this measure is supposed to accomplish, but better by a vast margin.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What makes you think they fudged dice? I heard nothing of fudging dice rolls. I could see what they did working with ease. Hell in my home games I ignore WBL and a group is happy, happy I tell ya to have a single magic item by level 6.
I don't fudge the dice and have run very low magic settings with zero issue. But I dont sic ghosts on em if they have zero chance of dealing with em either.