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This is in regards to my concern on the spread of rules and material over several (Read 3 or more) books for any single class. It is not player friendly and it creates certain dependencies to fully take advantage of any given product based on what your other products are. It is the "batteries not included" problem. That or the vacuum bag scam.
Towards the end of the 3.X era it became a huge problem, and one in fact that forced WotC to print their "Compendium" line of books so they can get everything all in one place for ease of reference for players.
We all know that Ultimate Magic is coming out soon enough, and with it comes 100+ spells for all of the various classes already in print and the Magus as well. Every spellcaster will now have 3 books they have to hunt through to find a "complete" spell-list, and while I will say that owning the PFCRB is a given, the Advanced Players Guide content is going to be putting itself in a position where it will become a dependency for some of the content in UM.
I ... am worried about this and the way things are set out currently I don't see any way to fix it other than offering some kind of document that contains EVERY spell description and spell-list for all of the classes... much like the compendiums from the past. You at paizo are however in a unique position of working within the OGL where the content in these books are already going to be available free online.
I don't know if this is a real question or even then a FAIR one to pose to you folks working for the giant purple golem but...
Have you guys (in staff) discussed this phenomena/issue and if so what is your take on things?
Interestingly, a 3pp publisher, unlike with WOTC and official 3.5 material, could put together a "Spell Compendium" if it appears as if it would make them enough money.
That being said, who knows, perhaps after the Ultimate Series is done, plus perhaps a year or two, Paizo will find its in their own best interest to put this out themselves.
For what its worth, I was bummed that we never got to a Feat Compendium for 3.5 . . .
Oh, and any 3pp that think a "compendium" of Paizo's original OGL content would be a good idea . . . please don't add any 3pp stuff into that product. Its not that their might not be some good offerings from other companies, but I'd rather see a compilation based on the "baseline" separate from any other publishers. Maybe that's just me.
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...some kind of document that contains EVERY spell description and spell-list for all of the classes... much like the compendiums from the past. You at paizo are however in a unique position of working within the OGL where the content in these books are already going to be available free online.
I think you answered your own question. It will fall on the player community to collate all this stuff.
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I may be getting your concern wrong, but as I see you're worried that your (magic using) characters will need 3 books, next year.
Sorry, when compared to say, WotC, or whomever owns Shadowrun this month, 3 books is really not a lot to put down to play.
WotC's 4e tips the scales at roughly 6 'core' hardbacks a year, then another 6 or more products that contain material that is OrgPlay legal.
Shadowrun 4e has roughly a dozen hardbacks, though it's been out as long or longer than WotC's 4e
WoD... well, they're a strange case at the moment and I get the feeling they're attempting to go digital subscription.
Pathfinder has a lot of content, but so much of it isn't core that the Pokemon collection reflex isn't triggered (at least not by me and I ended up getting a majority of the 3.5 HBs).
I'm not staff, but I believe you really should think about how much this will actually affect you going forward for the next 2-3 years.
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@NotMousse- Oh, I am well aware of how these things run. That is the very intent in the core of my message. I don't WANT these things to happen to Pathfinder. I would rather purchase a new expensive CRB (PDF even) every year with EVERYTHING I am going to need in it than 2 extraneous books with self contained content.
The 80 page books that WotC and the like every month or 2 is a BLATANT and OBVIOUS attempt to scrape as much money from its loyal customers as possible.
I would sooner quit role-playing than I would buy a hardcover book with 2 classes, 1 race, and 25 pages of fiction.
I know that paizo is not this kind of publisher at heart, but I am very curious as to how they plan on addressing this inevitable issue, assuming they continue to prosper and produce content as they are now.
One of the main reasons i switched to Pathfinder (apart from the game mechanics) was my disgust with the blatant cash grab of WotC and 4e.
But that's totally different to creating new material that genuinely expands the game.
And the 4 books i have i will use for easily a decade. Pretty good value for money to me.
And...if you don't want 'em, you don't need 'em.
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We're having fun running APs with just the Core Rulebook.
There is nothing essential in the APG. The wizard and druid in the party don't feel cheated because they don't have the APG spells.
As long as the APs have the core-only assumption then I'm not really worried about this.
It's not an arms race. Paizo is trying hard to work on creating options that don't overpower or invalidate core content and so far they seem to be doing okay.
All that happens is you have a few less options, and sometimes you can have too much choice.
Although I do understand the concern that parts of Ultimate Magic won't work without the APG, it's a difficult balance though as Paizo doesn't want to neglect content they produce.
I think this is one reason why WoTc continues to update their character generator application. Their digital tools pull all the written content together. I believe there are many digital WoTC customers who never buy the books.
Given that Pathfinder does not support an official digital character solution I think the posts concluding that the Pathfinder community will need to pull the new and old material together are correct.
...some kind of document that contains EVERY spell description and spell-list for all of the classes... much like the compendiums from the past. You at paizo are however in a unique position of working within the OGL where the content in these books are already going to be available free online.I think you answered your own question. It will fall on the player community to collate all this stuff.
To give a comparison, the Wizards produced Star Wars SAGA released 14 books of feats, talents, species, force powers, droids, ships and numerous other things. It was never officially collated in a book. The player community on the forums summarised everything from all 14 books in a pair of excel documents.
I don't actually think that's unreasonable, none of them were necessary beyond the core book, but people like to use them and the community created the reference to make it efficient.
Just want to echo... my solution to the problem is I don't use the books I don't want. *shrug* (And of the books I do want, ignore the stuff that's hard to track. For example, I do own the APG, but I do agree trying to remember all those spells are overwhelming, so I'm just not going to use the spells, and feats will be allowed on a case by case basis so I don't have to memorize all of them.)
I assume the OP WANTS to use all the supplementary material, but if you WANT to use the supplementary material, you have accept that comes with the consequence of trying to track it all. But it is something, you, the player, the customer, takes upon yourself, it is not something the publisher forces upon the player, and this applies as much to Paizo as it does to WotC or any other company. (Though as many others have noted, at least with PRPG, the OGC nature of most of the material makes it much easier for players to track than elsewhere.)
If you don't like rules bloat, don't buy supplements. That is the ONLY way to send a profit-driven company the message. If it will make them money, they will make it. If it will not make them money, they will not. If you do not like it, do not give them money.
I would rather purchase a new expensive CRB (PDF even) every year with EVERYTHING I am going to need in it than 2 extraneous books with self contained content.
I feel completely opposite. There's no way I would re-buy the same stuff (especially in digital format) over and over.
I would sooner quit role-playing than I would buy a hardcover book with 2 classes, 1 race, and 25 pages of fiction.
I'd buy it. Especially if the race is really neat and the fiction helps 'sell' it and how it fits in and everything. I do sort of wish the companions (at least the Race companions) were all collected and bound in one expensive hardback.
Maybe it's because I'm pretty much "in on the ground floor" but I'm excited about each new release, and each new book I get is full of good things. In 3.5 by the time I was interested in it, tons of them were already out of print, and there was such a huge backlog of stuff to work through. It was all already part of the game, where with PF, each new book is new stuff so it doesn't feel like I'm buying parts of the game piecemeal, but rather I have a complete game, and I'm buying expansions to make it better.
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If you say that there's too much material spread across too many books, and then you say that you wouldn't buy a book that was essentially a consolidation of the material in those books, then you're proposing a problem with no solution. No solution, except, of course:
www.d20pfsrd.com basically solves this problem.
...this one. So, is there really a problem, here? I'm not sure.
WotC's 4e tips the scales at roughly 6 'core' hardbacks a year, then another 6 or more products that contain material that is OrgPlay legal.
Of course, but you don't need to buy anything except for a DDI subscription for 1-2m/y to get the complete set of all officially released stuff. And since you can print out everything on your charsheet, it's also not required for referencing powers or spells...
The batteries are most definitely included with Pathfinder. Yes, you need to reach for other books than the core book and the bestiary if you want the supplementary material, but that's a matter of something being supplementary.
For example, Pathfinder put the familiar rules in the main book rather than bumping them to another book to be published later as was the case with 4e (which really ticked me off as an old school wizard player I might add).
If you want to have everything in a searchable database, it can be done with the web.
As a GM, all I generally use in an evening is the core book and the bestiary, though I occasionally reach for another book. If a player wants to play one of the non-core classes, I require them to have the book that has that class, or at least a printout of that class mechanics handy.
One of the main reasons i switched to Pathfinder (apart from the game mechanics) was my disgust with the blatant cash grab of WotC and 4e.It should also be remembered that there is a key marketing focus difference between WotC and Paizo. WotC focus is on rules books, Paizo is on Adventure paths. If you add the AP publications into the mix you have a much more similar number of publications and cost to the consumer. Granted you do not have to buy or use the AP's to run a PF game, but neither do you have to buy the "expansion" books to play/run D&D. Both companies could be accused of making a cash grab with different products.
Which is even more pronounced since everything important in PF is OGL.
To give a comparison, the Wizards produced Star Wars SAGA released 14 books of feats, talents, species, force powers, droids, ships and numerous other things. It was never officially collated in a book. The player community on the forums summarised everything from all 14 books in a pair of excel documents.
I don't actually think that's unreasonable, none of them were necessary beyond the core book, but people like to use them and the community created the reference to make it efficient.
Yet another reason why I am so well liked over on the Star Wars forums (I'm the guy that hosts the original files, plus I helped find and edit errors). THAT was an interesting project to be a part of, let me tell you! Perhaps I should send them a postcard? Seems like I'm over here all the time these days.
Maybe I should start a Spell Compendium and/or Magic Item Compendium project here once I find the time. I certainly have the editing skills to pull it off (I do newspaper layout design for a living and have all the right software and training).
If anyone else beats me to the project, I formally request that you invite me on board.
RavingDork:
Someone not only beat you, but did so handedly:
He's also very good at keeping up with the paizo stuff, but he generally won't add anything big (like the APG) until paizo has had some time to get it out first.
Which is even more pronounced since everything important in PF is OGL.One of the main reasons i switched to Pathfinder (apart from the game mechanics) was my disgust with the blatant cash grab of WotC and 4e.It should also be remembered that there is a key marketing focus difference between WotC and Paizo. WotC focus is on rules books, Paizo is on Adventure paths. If you add the AP publications into the mix you have a much more similar number of publications and cost to the consumer. Granted you do not have to buy or use the AP's to run a PF game, but neither do you have to buy the "expansion" books to play/run D&D. Both companies could be accused of making a cash grab with different products.Either you missed my point or I missed yours. OGL does not allow the a product defined as "Product Identity" to be copied and distributed. Yes you can use elements from Pathfinder products to produce your own and even sale those, but if you are going to us the APs you still have to buy them. To copy and redistribute a seperate "Product Identity" (any given AP module) is still copyright violation and piracy. So I don't see where the use OGL makes this more pronounced. Both companies still have copy righted product to sale.
Which WAS my point. The 'cash grab' nature of putting out so much non-OGL IP is highlighted by all the nitty gritty being OGL.
That was because the orginal intent was to not have familiars any longer. I would agree and apparently WotC does also that was a bad decision as they did add the familiar as you stated in a later publication. The addition of those rules was in direct repsonse to player feedback. Which shows that while yes publising another book (which did not cover just the familiar rule) did create additional revenue for WotC, it also showed that they were/are responding to customer feedback. And that is a good thing.For example, Pathfinder put the familiar rules in the main book rather than bumping them to another book to be published later as was the case with 4e (which really ticked me off as an old school wizard player I might add).
The sorting of things in to Book A and Book B was a bit too neat to look like a response to customer feedback. I think it was the original marketing plan and at best they simply adjusted it based on customer feedback, but the plans were already in place.
Which WAS my point. The 'cash grab' nature of putting out so much non-OGL IP is highlighted by all the nitty gritty being OGL.
Oh, so it really boils down to the fact that WotC decided to protect its IP this time around. Well, cry me a river. They have the right to do that, besides there was a lot crap out there with 3.5 due the OGL.
Besides take a look at the OGL Paizo is using "The following text is the property of Wizards of the Coast, Inc...." The OGL still belongs to WotC. It is theirs to do with what they like.
Paizo is still operating under WotC's OGL, which has as part of the authority by WotC to ammend and republish the OGL at any time. They could have shut down Pathfinder at any time. It seems WotC actually still a good bit of OGL out there after all, of course that is thanks to Paizo and WotC for not adding large royalties to it, or revoking it all together.
Actually they can't shut down the license at any time and in fact they can't change it. They can only change the GSL or the d20 system license.
EDIT: Slight rephrase, they can change the OGL at anytime, but Paizo can publish under any version.
Chief Technical Officer
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Slight rephrase, they can change the OGL at anytime, but Paizo can publish under any version.
Correct. The exact language is in the OGL itself:
9. Updating the License: Wizards or its designated Agents may publish updated versions of this License. You may use any authorized version of this License to copy, modify and distribute any Open Game Content originally distributed under any version of this License.
In short, even though Wizards could theoretically release an OGL 2.0 which says "No OGL for you," everyone could just ignore it and continue using 1.0a, plus all of the OGL content ever released under any version—including 2.0—forever.
RavingDork:
Someone not only beat you, but did so handedly:
He's also very good at keeping up with the paizo stuff, but he generally won't add anything big (like the APG) until paizo has had some time to get it out first.
Yeah, but his archives appear to have a lot of homebrew material as well.
What I'm talking about is a downloadable (purchasable?) document which has all the spells from the Core Book, the APG, and Ultimate Magic.
As was said above: A simple nice looking, easily navigable compendium that DIDN'T have unique stuff.
Wow, you must really hate WotC. Paizo also has its marketing plan, and it is to make a profit as well. It just involves Adventure Paths not Rule Books.
I have no trouble with marketing plans so long as they deliver what was expected. I bought the three main D&D books back in high school, 1st edition, and they were a complete game, ready to play. I did the same with the 3.0 books and they were the same: a complete game, ready to play.
The 4e boxed set I got? Not so much. Too many rules and things I wanted (familiars, gnomes, etc.) bumped to later books, too many things I didn't care for (dragonborn, tieflings as the heirs of strangely chaste satanists) put in place.
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RavingDork:
Someone not only beat you, but did so handedly:
He's also very good at keeping up with the paizo stuff, but he generally won't add anything big (like the APG) until paizo has had some time to get it out first.
Yeah, but his archives appear to have a lot of homebrew material as well.
What I'm talking about is a downloadable (purchasable?) document which has all the spells from the Core Book, the APG, and Ultimate Magic.
As was said above: A simple nice looking, easily navigable compendium that DIDN'T have unique stuff.
Actually, Archives of Nethys is 100% Paizo stuff.
As Gorbacz said, it's all 100% paizo stuff.
Whats about a "Spell PDF", which contains all spells?
Additional "Class Spellbooks PDFs" would be nice, copy pasting every spell from the books and arrange them in a handy spellist is such a pain (doing it for my girlfriedn (lvl 6 druid)) at the moment...
Whats about a "Spell PDF", which contains all spells?
Additional "Class Spellbooks PDFs" would be nice, copy pasting every spell from the books and arrange them in a handy spellist is such a pain (doing it for my girlfriedn (lvl 6 druid)) at the moment...
Actually, what would be really useful is a click-together-able list of spells to create a spellbook for wizards or sorcerers. This means it should have a nice interface to just select the spells you want, and then generate a list similar to the class lists from militaryfocus for 3.5, with all the important info for a certain spell on one line...
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the Advanced Players Guide content is going to be putting itself in a position where it will become a dependency for some of the content in UM.
I think this is the key, and most difficult/challenging point in the OP.
Supporting APG, UM, UC etc. stuff may eventually make them seem part of core, despite the Piazo commitment to a small core assumption.
If you buy a book in 2 years time and you realise 40% of the material only works with APG, UM and UC then you might feel a bit cheated by a system which tells you that: You only need Core Rulebook and Bestiary to run this.
Personally, I don't mind Bestiary 2 becoming core but I like a small core assumption and would like some threshold for other books (something like minimum 80% of content in any new book can be used with nothing but core rulebook).
The 4e boxed set I got? Not so much. Too many rules and things I wanted (familiars, gnomes, etc.) bumped to later books, too many things I didn't care for (dragonborn, tieflings as the heirs of strangely chaste satanists) put in place.Actually that wasn't intentional. They actually DID want to GET RID of gnomes (their research showed most people didn't play gnomes), and wanted to ADD the dragonborn and tieflings as part of a rebranding, same reason they changed the rules from D&D (RPG) to Advanced D&D Minis. They returned the gnome and familiars for the same reason they made magic missile auto-hit again, the pre-4E fans wanted them back.
This still has the same result of having to buy two more books to get the content that you wanted in the first. This doesn't look like so much of a response to fans as an original business plan.
And I have no problems with rebranding except when I find it lame. Tieflings with giant crocodile tails and horns so big they preclude most hats except sombreros and bishop's mitres, but these are accepted as regular members of society? And the dragonborn are missing horns and tails but have breasts, making them look like hornytoad furries? Yes, the breasts were airbrushed out, but still....
This still has the same result of having to buy two more books to get the content that you wanted in the first. This doesn't look like so much of a response to fans as an original business plan.What makes this not look like a response? The only proof you are giving is that for YOU to play the game YOU want, YOU need two more books. They no longer wanted those things in the game PERIOD. Most likely, had it not been because of too many people complaining, those rules you wanted would still not be out.
The only "proof" is that in 3.X the main PHB had a slate of basically human races--skinny humans, burly humans, short humans, etc. but still basically humans to the point that even the short humans could easily dress up and pass as tall human children. The supplementary books had a slate of demi-human humans--humans with fiendish bits, humans with angelic bits, humans in dragon suits, tiny humans in dragon suits, etc.
4e? Main book, a couple human types are swapped out, a couple demi-humans swapped in, and there's even an amusing cartoon about the tiefling and the gnome swapping places. ("Raaarr! I'm a monster!") I think the plan all along was to have the gnome in the PHB II, which meant that old school players who wanted to convert existing campaigns would to wait for and buy that second book.
If not the gnomes, what race would have gone in the PHB II? Myconids? Meenlocks? Mindflayers with anorexia or some other reason not to eat brains?
Unless you know what content got bumped for the "back by popular demand" gnomes and familiars, it's all just opinion, and my opinion is that the plan was to have gnomes and familiars out later and "back by popular demand" was just marketing saying that. It's like a radio station saying they're playing a request when it was something already scheduled on their playlist.
How did they go about making magic missile an auto hit? (I've been out of the 4E loop for some time now.)
IIRC the primary problem with gnomes and halflings is that there is so much crossover between the two races in terms of design concepts that the designers felt that one could be jettisoned safely and room could be made for new interesting races.
While tieflings in 4e look somewhat different than they have in previous editions, tieflings (and aasimar) have been popular supplemental races since the 2e release of Planescape. Even before that cambions (half-fiends) have been popular in D&D (especially Greyhawk). Tieflings were a good addition mainly because they provide a nice darker edged base race.
Dragonborn have a less robust pedigree unless you assume they are just an intellectual descendant of the Draconians of Dragonlance, or maybe lizardmen. While I'm not thrilled with the way they've been protrayed (the mammalian secondary characteristics seem out of place) they seem to be moderately popular as a base race.
WotC definitely likes the steady stream of splatbook revenue (and more importantly DDI revenue) but why is it bad for a company to seek additional revenue out of a product line? Development of a new edition for a game like 4e is incredibly expensive (lots of development time, high production values, layout and printing, promotional material). If they don't have a steady revenue stream either they dry up and people face layoffs or they just release a new core every couple of years.
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Actually, Archives of Nethys is 100% Paizo stuff.RavingDork:
Someone not only beat you, but did so handedly:
He's also very good at keeping up with the paizo stuff, but he generally won't add anything big (like the APG) until paizo has had some time to get it out first.
Yeah, but his archives appear to have a lot of homebrew material as well.
What I'm talking about is a downloadable (purchasable?) document which has all the spells from the Core Book, the APG, and Ultimate Magic.
As was said above: A simple nice looking, easily navigable compendium that DIDN'T have unique stuff.
To be fair, my "Conversions" section does include my own takes on updating some APs to 3.5. Also, if I include a mechanic in the Archives from 3.5, I do change the skill names and such to Pathfinder, which could be considered 'homebrew'.
Otherwise, yes, I only add material to my Archives (excluding the Conversions section) if it originated from a Paizo source. The "Sources" section lists all the books I pull material from.